Pros and cons of Bali versus Thailand

[hugocnx]

Reading the topic about Virgin airlines no longer doing Phuket, I expressed my thoughts about a Bali-Thailand topic.

There isn't any in Thaivisa I believe, so here we go. If I am mistaking, let's do it over

What are your ideas of Bali versus Thailand.

Better for expats?

Better for vacation?

Less hassle?

Criminality?

Cost of living?

Visa of course

Women more courgeous? Please live your selves out.

Cheers

[craigt3365]

I like Bali a lot. Beautiful island. I'm not keen on Kuta and the surrounds. Too many cowboys and too much traffic. But the beaches are nice.

I hired a car and driver for a few days. We got stopped many times for tea money. And here constantly harassed by vendors trying to get us to buy stuff. Some very aggressively.

There are women, but nothing like here. There are quieter areas, but same with here in Thailand. And all the pros/cons that go along with quite areas.

I think the food is more interesting here. But I do like Bali a lot. Why not head over for 2-3 weeks and check it out? Flights are relatively cheap.

[phuketrichard]

I like Bali as well, we usually fly in an take a taxi up to Ubud an rent a car for 10 days or so an drive around an than ONLY stay at Kuta the

last night for the flight back.

Its a great island and fun to explore an cheap, Dont care much for Kuta or Denpasar thou.

I live in Phuket so an biased. It's IMPOSSIBLE to compare a small island, where u can see the whole island in less than a month,

to a country the size of Thailand were it would take you much longer to travel around

Have meet lots of people that used to live in Bali an all left they are not kind to mixed couples (Balinese & Farang) living there.

Edited August 9, 2015 by phuketrichard

[Flanno]

One downside for Bali is the many thousands of drunken Aussies. One upside for Bali is many thousands less than Thailand of whining Poms.

[wdr]

I live since 1 year one month Bali/one month Thailand and very satisfied with Bali. The living cost for me about 30% cheaper than my living cost in Thailand. The Balinese people are very friendly and helpful. On Bali I stay away from Kuta where all the Aussies gathering. I rented an apartmentand and a scooter on the edge of Sanur which cost me 5000 THB/Month for the apartment and 1500 THB/Month for the scooter(125cc). I reach the Sanur beach within 10 minutes. Many places on Bali worth to explore. Many volcanoes to climb. I'm always happy return to Bali. Only issue I have a kids in amazing Thailand so I return regularly to Thailand. I this not happen, Thailand bye bye

[toenail]

This is like comparing apples to oranges. Both places stay away from the major cities( Denpasar & Patong). culture-wise Bali has more to see than Phuket for example. Bali is not cheap- twice as much & expensive visa to pay at the airport. Customer service is 100% better in Bali in regular shops & restaurants whereas in most places ( not counting the 4-5 star hotels in Thailand) the clerks are clueless how to take care of a customer or to speak English. Bangkok has its own personality that makes it unique to other SE cities.

[godden]

Philippines is a much surer bet.

[Blitzkrieg Bob]

Bali vs Thailand - comparing an island to a complete country? Could one come up with a more stupid question? Why not ask for Indonesia vs. Thailand, or Bali vs. Phuket or vs. Samui? That actually would make sense!

[1FinickyOne]

Thailand has many distinct places - it really depends about where you are talking about - living in Pattaya is far far different than living in Petchaboon…

[jomcondo]

Philippines is a much surer bet.

for what?......its a complete shitehole with some of the worst food in the world.

[xjbond]

I spent a week in Bali 10 years ago and a few weeks elsewhere in Indonesia. I found very little attractive about Bali. And I never saw ONE pretty girl on my entire trip. Corruption seems worse, my native travelling companion even had to pay a bribe just to get me through customs, otherwise face a big delay. If I ever return, it will only be for business reasons.

I'll take Thailand any day.

[poooket]

This is like comparing apples to oranges. Both places stay away from the major cities( Denpasar & Patong). culture-wise Bali has more to see than Phuket for example. Bali is not cheap- twice as much & expensive visa to pay at the airport. Customer service is 100% better in Bali in regular shops & restaurants whereas in most places ( not counting the 4-5 star hotels in Thailand) the clerks are clueless how to take care of a customer or to speak English. Bangkok has its own personality that makes it unique to other SE cities.

Have you ever been to Bali?

Why do you compare Denpasar and Patong?

If you want to compare Bali and Phuket, why not compare Denpasar and Phuket town or Kuta and Patong? No Bali isn't twice as expensive as Patong.

[fred Kubasa]

You should be aware that Indonesia has every natural and unnatural proble in the universe. Start with earthquakes on to Tsunami, thru volcano eruptions & occasional flooding and landslides. Un natural, restrictive dress codes, many religious, ( mostly Muslim ),customs/traditions and a non covert dislike of anything Western.I wouldn't live there free !

[Thunderbirds20]

I was in Bali for two months, starting the day after the Bali bombing, ..and I have been living in Thailand for 10 years now.

Bali is a small island, Thailand has much more to see

The people of Bali are mostly Hindu, not Muslim. They are friendly and genuine people

Thai people are mostly Buddhist, friendly but not so genuine. A lot more crime in Thailand, ...and getting more and more violent as the economy continues to struggle.

I look at exchange rates every day. The Thai Baht is now going down in value, but is still far stronger than it should be. The exchange rate is much more favorable in Bali. A person like me on a small pension would do better in Bali than Thailand II think.

I stay in Thailand because I can speak Thai and know my way around and am aware of their customs and culture, ... but I often think a move to Bali would make me better off.

Bali is having some problems with waste management as more people are going there.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Bali is a stinking, corrupt, trash ridden, noisy and traffic jammed hell hole.

It is also a far superior choice to Phuket.

[thailandforumaddict]

Hassle everywhere in Bali just like the rest of indonesia and 99% of developing countries.

No idea why we all stay in Thailand ?

[Shaunduhpostman]

Hello to all!

Yes I know, I have written a whole book here. I find the topic very interesting is all. I had a great time in Bali last year and I live in Thailand and have lived in Jakarta for a year recently as well. You could just skip my post, if the topic isn’t that intersting to you, I know this post is too long for most people, it is really over the top in length and hopefully it won't get me banned, sorry if I have gotten in your way scrolling down the page. Scroll on!

Also, sorry to lovers of Thai holiday destinations, I live in Thailand and have done so mostly for the last 16 years, yet I regret to say that I am frankly rather fed up with Thailand as a place to holiday, and I realize that perhaps it has as much to do with me as it does Thailand, but that is how it stands anyway at this point, that I don't like holidaying here though I once did. That said, I enjoy my life here as a foreign resident generally speaking, I am very lucky to have a supportive and very nice family whom I trust and enjoy being with. The fact that Thailand still affords a reasonably good quality of life for the money allows me much freedom I would not have elsewhere, so you can’t ask for much else. I am also sorry to say I am not going to compare Thailand as a holiday destination favorably to Bali here and I do that out of love and concern for Thailand and in hopes that they improve things a bit, an alcohol ban is making an Afghanistan out of the place and nobody likes to go there for a holiday. Even that aside Thailand was alreday clearly losing the race for my holiday buck and I am now much more than happy to spend it in Bali than anyplace here when I get the chance. Also I think much of what is not good for holiday makers ends up not being good for Thais and other residents. Also, tourism is a bit of a dead end for many countries and it has a lot of fallout for whatever benefits come from it, and all the people coming through Thailand have left their mark and unfortunately Thailand seems less and less able to cope well with some of it. Countries don’t get rich off of tourism, so you have to wonder why should they care that much anyway and it appears that Thailand doesn’t care about tourism, the industry may indeed only be truly important to the ruling establishment only as a kind of nice diplomatic facade that helps smooth over what is a rather medieval system at the core, one that John Kerry wouldn’t approve of, so it is perhaps needed so that we are spared some of his chastisements.

In the tourist areas in Thailand too often you are just made a mockery of by clerks, sellers and others you depend on for your holiday. Many of them just can’t be asked. Or at least I am just messsed with anyway. It's just painful and not a lot else. I don't have to go into it. I don’t feel it was always that way but it seems so now.

Bali, on the the other hand, the one time we went, last year, was a whole world of difference. I have spent a lot of time in Jakarta as a resident as well, and I feel Indonesians, generally speaking don't seem to have a problem with being present, reasonable and cognizant or doing their jobs in some simple capacity such as being a waiter or cashier or hotel desk clerk or cab driver, the very people holiday makers most often depend on to have a chance at having a good time. So everything pretty much follows very smoothly from there, that service empoyees are better. The people you will be dealing with are not only mostly more reasonable than in Thaiand, but by and large many are downright witty and articulate and enjoy interacting with others. It is not uncommon to happen into Balinese or Indonesians who seem to enjoy having met you. I don’t get the sense they are sucking up to me, like they want something else from me if they are being friendly which i get all too often here. They have the English skills as well. Indonesians seem to clearly have a much better education system and/or an overall better attitude towards learning. Thais by comparison seem to be in some kind of trance and not willing to come out of it. I am sorry to be that way, but how else can you describe your interactions or non-interactions with people in Bangkok, Pattaya, Ko Samui, Phuket etc? I feel I am not even respected as a human being half the time. If I am not super fit in designer wear, big nosy looking eyes magnified by conspicuous eyewear with a crass hair weave, I’m stuffed.

Bali has a lot to offer I think, perhaps more than Thailand. It is nothing that anyone has done in particular in many cases, it is just how things have worked out due to history, geology, geography, biology, ecology etc. I too avoided the hugely touristy areas in Bali, or at least Kuta anyway. I think that is also the large part of the reason Thai service staff are so unpleasant and uncooperative much of the time, Thais are burned out on tourists, and in some ways you can't blame them really, but Thailand doesn't really win my sympathy on that account, there is an element of chip on the shoulder with more and more people I encounter on my unfortunately necessary forays into Bangkok and other areas. There is the much lamented nationalism and racism to boot that is also a contributing factor I’m sure and it really is hard sell to appreciate any more or sympathize with Thailand’s obvious problems.

Though we didn’t go there, I assume that Kuta would be similarly unpleasant as Pattaya due to the hordes of tourists, so we decided to give it a miss and there's nothing much there that isn't elsewhere in Bali unless you want to be with lots of other tourists, mostly younger I have heard tell.

However, we stayed the first and last part of our two weeks fairly near to Kuta in Seminyak which is clearly very touristy, though I thought in an interesting and hip way and found the hotel staff where we stayed to be not only helpful but a downright blast. That never happens to me in Thailand. Maybe I'm just an <deleted> or something. But the hotel staff in Seminyak seemed genuinely interested in meeting people and enjoyed interacting with the guests. It was a cheap budget hotel to boot, so these were not people doing this to impress the hisos or keep a high paying job at a high end hotel or something. There was nothing in it for them. But whatever the case, I have never felt that the hotel staff liked me at all anywhere at any time at any hotel in Thailand. They politely endure your intrusions on their space, sometimes with a smile and sometimes do their jobs if they feel like it, but don’t push your luck. Polite, a bit helpful at times but distant, and that is all I ask for, but it usually isn't on, or not these days anyway.

My wife was really thrilled with the interesting shops with all manner of independent clothing designers showing their stuff. Some really interesting stuff I’ve never seen hide nor hair of in Thailand tourist areas. I thought the restaurants in Seminyak were fantastic. Some seriously creative quality cooking going on and at prices that will not wipe you out. Fat Gadjah is one amazing Asian fusion cooking restaurant that could not exist in Thailand, or not for peasants like me anyway. It would only be found in some hip area such as Thong Lor where you would be made to feel like you had shat in your pants, if as an old washed up farang you had the nerve to enter, “Oh! Too late, na! Old fat old pink man you not very chick! Could you please return to Patpong where you belong? Didn’t you know They have a free hamburger or hot dog there for you! And sexy lady too! Go on! Shoo! We don’t want your money, you will ruin our rep showing your face in here, please go now!”

There was a burger joint in Seminyak that was equally fantastic, gourmet burgers at reasonable prices and no pretension just kick ass quality burgers and fries to go and take down to the beach and eat. The fish in my fish burger was so fresh that it was half alive, just gorgeous sweet melt in your mouth white fish meat of some sort, not from a frozen patty, absolute dynamite.

Alcoholic drinks are not so good in Bali, or expensive due to taxation, worse than Thailand, but Guiness is available at a normal price and I'd rather have Guiness than Singha and certainly more than Beer Chang. There is also a German owned brewery in Bali that does damn nice wheat and wheat dunkel that is not impossible to find in shops and restaurants in Indonesia and Bali. Also, not expensive, but it is difficult to find their beers in Bali which seems odd because they’re based in Lovina somewhere. I had better luck finding their beer in Jakarta where I first encountered the Bali wheat beers. I don't care for Indonesia's Bintang too much, but it is as drinkable as Beer Singha and about 25% cheaper. It has an OK faint bitter hoppy zing for a factory lager, but at the end of the day is what it is, there’s no further kidding around about it to be done. Wine is outrageously taxed, so as much as I like wine, it isn't on in Indonesia, just ridiculous, forget it or you'll be broke fast.

The beach at Seminyak is leagues beyond any urban beach in Thailand, fresh breeze constantly blowing, seemingly happier locals playing beach football, partying cheerfully, etc. not a feeling of malice from some people as I sometimes get at the main Pattaya beach, whether it is people sizing you up wondering if they can hustle you for something, the hopped up jet ski hooligains, or some western yobbohs maybe giving you a spin just to vent, or what have you. Going to the beach at Seminyak, it is crowded, but ebullient, you come away refreshed by the breeze the waves the width and expanse of the beach a full 100 yards wide and probably almost certainly more. There is all sorts of interesting seawrack on the shore, colorful shells, water erosion worn pieces of coral, I found an old chinese coin that looked like it had been underwater for decades. Good body surfing in the decent to monstorous sized waves which i enjoy. Dangerous rip tide areas clearly marked with flags. One major downside is that there was raw sewage run off going straight from big hotels to the beach and into the sea. You could smell what it was. However we found a pretty long stretch where there was none of that and it seemed much cleaner otherwise than any Thai beach I have been to. I come off the beach in Thailand feeling hot, like someone has dumped a sticky hot can of coke on my head and I am burned out and dying to get back to the room. Granted, that is simply a consequnce of Thailand beaches being on a large gulf and not open ocean as is the south facing coast of Bali. But sorry it just isn’t my thing, Thai beaches. It would be more refreshing to soak in a luke warm tub of my own crud with Thelonius Monk on the box and nice glass of sticky ruby red black brown Weihenstphaner Korbinian, my go to double bock, available in supermarkets everywhere in Bangkok and Pattaya. And I give Thailand that, beer and wine availability is some of the best in Asia and that is important to many a holidayer, but seems they are trying to put an end to as well with new alcohol bans.

Ubud, our next destination after Seminyak has a mind blowing array of art and temples and also excellent places to stay and eat. Blows Chiang Mai out of the water, imho. The mytho-religious practices seem to still be intact and the performance aspect has always been a part of the authentic culture, so tourists coming to gawk is not much different than locals coming to gawk at the gods decending into the bodies of performers. There is nothing clap trap or tourist trappy about any of it. Maybe I am fooled but as a tourist that is all I ask, I suppose. Ladies firing darts out of their pussies at the Pat Pong ping pong show, ok, you wonder hmmm…maybe some traditional excersise that enables them to do that. Whoa! But my father tells me, no, they were doing that at strip clubs in San Francisco back in the 40’s, perhaps brought over to the bay from Hong Kong. And a bit of a one dimesional gag and nothing else even if in fact it twas developed here and taken to Hong Kong. The kecak fire dances put you right into contact with something mysterious as the performers romp barefooted in fire and hot coals in a possien state, or so they tell you, and come away unscathed. Even if that is bs, the live Balinese gamelan and dance is virtuoso stuff and more than makes up for that, the likes of which died out in Thailand decades ago, if it wasn't outright quashed by someone who didn't happen to like it. The whole expat painters in the 20th century phenomena is fascinating and the influence they had on Balinese painters produced something that was just amazing. It is like jazz in New Orleans, an example of people meeting up from around the world and producing something truly new together. It is a shame I was born too late to have been there for it all. There is still a ton of the world class painting done at that time on display at well maintained even gorgeous museums in Ubud. There are well written explanations and displays that explain the whole scene and the mythology and other subjects in the paintings as well as good pamplets at the museums giving bio details on the Balinese, Dutch, Mexican even Russian masters who together made a new kind of Balinese art. I am sorry, Thailand has a history of snubbing the whole rest of the world, nobody is going to be open to foreign artists here, or only on the sly, appropriated, pastiched but not taken in and developed as something new. It is very winning to see that at least at one time the Balinese were that open that they began participating in western style painting and truly making it their own. It is enthralling what happened in Bali during the 30’s until th 70’s. I was converted to being a big fan of Balinese painting during my stay. Another good thing was having such beautiful museums to myself. Totally deserted. I guess everyone gets their daily imagery nutritional requirements with the internet these days. The lack of interest doesn't bode well for the future of the museums tho, really sad.

If you like underwater life as I do, Bali has stellar scuba and snorkelling at such places as Nusa Penida, Menjangan Island, and Amed. Nowhere in Thailand comes close, Ko Tao is a despoiled wasteland compared to those places with a dying underwater ecology. Ko Surin and the Sembilans are relatively difficult and expensive to access and not as good anyway osso it seems from all the photos on flickr. Menjangan and the nearby mainland fringing reef at Permuteran are teeming with coral and fish species and very easy access. You can stay right there on the beach in Permuteran on Bali's extreme northwest corner, in excellent Bungalows for 900 baht a night with an amazing snorkel or scuba dive right at your doorstep. Great seafood, Indonesian, Italian etc available in cafes in the area. At Permuteran they are actively working to restore the coral reef and you can snorkel out 50 yards and see the results which are hundreds of coral species and probably a thousand kinds of fish. Jet skis? They don't want no stinkin jet skis and banana boats in Permuteran! As several locals remarked to me, this is Indonesia's natural fish aquarium, we don’t want that here! Menjangan island off the coast is mind blowing. I have never seen better coral or underwater life ever. Thailand's sea life is depleted by comparison. We didn't go to Amed or Nusa Lembongan/Penida , but I have read that there is a whole other marine environment that is equally vibrant at these places on Bali. The diving tour people who took the group out to Menjangan, all Balinese guys, were also a blast. They had real a passion and interest in what they were doing. I sat and talked marine life with them for a whole hour in their shop and when we went out the next day they knew I was as keen as they were and they were pointing all kinds of stuff out to me explaining stuff. It's like there's a law against that kind of thing in Thailand, you're not allowed to be interested in anything or care. Explaining or telling anyone anything is like giving up state secrets. It is heartbreaking sometimes how little joy anyone takes in knowing anything or taking any interest in their world in Thailand. But the snorkelling day tour cost was very reasonable and going to Menjangan is a must for anyone with interest in marine life. Clearly the ocean in Bali hasn’t been totally FUBAR’d by the fishing industry and a tourist industry that cares little about the environment. Not that Indonesia gets off the hook either on that account, but at least in Bali, from what I saw, mostly so far so good, some obvious appreciation and awareness of the importance of trying perserve the sea environment in Permuteran.

When we wanted to leave Seminyak for Ubud, I decided to ask the cab drivers hanging around outside the hotel what they wanted for the trip. I would never ask cab drivers hanging around outside a hotel in Thailand to take me anywhere, let alone even start talking to them. That is asking to be ripped off or even asking for trouble or at best they will just diddle you with some misinformation or simply not be bothered to understand anything you've said in Thai or English and blow you off. But we had spent 3 days in Seminyak and everytime we stepped out I took in the whole cab driver scene getting a good rough reading on them and then had a few conversations with some of them and after a few days felt assured and comfortable that they were genuinely cool guys and probably good for a trauma free ride of a few hours to Ubud. So when it came time to go, I had little trepidation and we struck a deal for a ride to Ubud. The guy was very well spoken in English and once we shoved off and were on our way he said, "If you want we can stop at many places along the way, there's a lot of interesting shops and so on.Just let me know what you want to see or do, I don't mind I am not too busy today." My wife and I both love batik and he gladly took us to some excellent places on the road from Seminyak to Ubud. As we passed through each hamlet he mentioned what there was to see and take a stop if we wanted. This place was good for stone work, that place was good for jewellery, this place had a nice place for a good cup of coffee etc. The guy knew the whole area like the back of his hand. One batik place was just massive, jaw dropping array of stuff at all prices and quality levels. I had to have two shirts and my wife got some stuff as well, very reasonably priced and good stuff that I still love wearing a year later. The driver had lots of information and tips and seemingly just given because he was interested and enjoyed sharing his knowledge, it was not a big deal to him. I'm sure it made his job all the more pleasant and interesting for him. When we stopped he would make some quick offerings to the local gods and my wife and I asked him about it and he was very open about it and explained more than I thought he should, as perhaps maybe somethings should be left unsaid in those matters, but that is perhaps just my particular hangup. He was quite into spirituality and curious about Thai traditions and so on and asked us about Thai Buddhism as he was intersted in Buddhism though born and raised a Hindu and continuing that way. We had a great conversation with him about Buddhism, Balinese spirituality meditation etc, unbelieveable coming from a cab driver, but when we came back another cab driver knowing that we were from Thailand also began asking us about Buddhism and he too was a very keen meditator had read a lot also and had a lot to say on the topics as we took a long ride from Seminyak to Legian to check out the beach and the scene there. I'm sorry but that just isn't going to happen with your random taxi driver off the street in Thailand.

Just based on one trip to Bali, it seems a clearly better place to go, for me and my interests anyway (food, mythology, spirituality, the sea, art, music and talking with others). Maybe I am just burned out and bitter regarding Thailand, but I still love it here as my home, I just fail to see the tourist destinations as having anything to offer any more at this point, unless you've never been here before. Bali has a depth and wealth that is just phenomenal. It just isn't here to that extent that it is in Bali. Thailand is a top destination in Asia, a must for any travel nut, make no mistake, but I think there are many reasons it is not a place to go back to once you’ve been. And I am sorry to say the people just don’t like you except for your money as many of us well know. But it makes for a one-dimensional country as far as tourism goes. It isn’t just about this thing or that thing in the country it is as much about who you meet and if we are just meat to those we meet then you can just go have your meeting with yourselves and be irrelevant and meet yourselves we’ll be going to Bulgaria next summer, Prudence and Persnipyoola and the gang, hmmph!

From some of the things in the news, seems there are some of the same problems in Bali as Thailand. Indonesia is horrendously corrupt, it is actually probably much worse than Thailand. You can also easily get sick and die in Jakarta from cholera for example. It happened to ex-pats I worked with and Jakartans all have their stories of getting appallingly sick multiple times from airborne sewage everywhere not to mention waterborn sewage when the whole city gets hoplessly flooded, beyond anything Bangkok has ever seen. It is absolute mess of a city dragging 20 million people down the drain along with it. The government charges extortionate levels of income tax yet many neighborhoods in Jakarta are criss crossed with busted up pavement. The rivers are literally choked with poo and rotting garbage, you can’t even see the water it appears to in fact not even be a body of water but to a long narrow garbage dump, but indeed it is a river. Your skin will begin to burn and itch being 200 yards away from it. It is real 3rd world nightmare stuff, yet the rich I believe put the Thai elites in the dust, they are far wealthier with a much larger counrty to exploit, but it is the same Sino tribes that control Thailand so it only goes to show you how bad things may get as far as the country being sucked dry by the elites. How it has to do with Bali is that I was skeptical that things were as paradisal as it seemed as the Javanese seem to have a real presence in Bali and of course those running Jakarta run the whole country, so you wonder if indeed the place isn’t more polluted than it seems to the average passerby like myself.

Bali is much cleaner than Jakarta but I doubt medical personel are any more competent or less mercenary. Jakartans never stopped warning me of the horrors that await you should have to see a doctor in Indonesia and they never stopped warning me about police. Scary stories abound. Jokes also abound but as not so veiled warnings to all. Thais cops are pussy cats by comparison. You don't EVEN want to get stopped by a cop in Indo. You could easily disappear to enormous manifold of chaos that only the likes of a master of the logically absurd such as a Borges could dream up. Who would know who would care where you went? A kind of Austro-Hungarian broken monstrosity of a system. The one time cops started walking my direction one day when I was out shopping in Jakarta, I pretended to have forgotten something, slapped my forehead and ran in the opposite direction, back into the shopping mall. My Jakartan collleagues would laugh and say that was a good move, you probably were about to get hauled in on some made up nonesense charge! From living in and working in Jakarta you run into just stunning levels of mass level coordinated incompetence and corruption, levels of which Thailand could never reach simply because there aren't enough people. Jakarta is beyond the pale, there is some seriously shocking stuff there. It’s the hub of a weird empire few know or care anythng about beyond Indonesia. But on a one to one or work level I find it so much easier to deal with Indonesians generally speaking and feel they understand friendship, value others, and understand that cooperating with others often saves everyone a lot of trouble and headache. In Thailand most people don’t seem to care about themselves let alone you. Perhaps it is all Indonesians have are their friends and family and those around them, that and a cultural diversity that doesn't allow them to be so narrow and nationalistic. They have to take interest in you to figure out the code, what’s going to work and not work perhaps. Bali seemed a world apart but the Balinese seem to have no problem stepping back and forth between their world and those of the Javanese and other outsiders with a strong presence. I don’t see that level of resiliency, flexibility or confidence in Thailand. And it makes them not nearly as fit to be good or even decent hosts to tourism. It all seems to just devolve into what you will pay them and then please move along the airport is over there. That’s all most Thais seem to feel comfortable with. Perhaps I would see it differently if I lived in Indonesia or Bali for a longer time and I realize i have superficial grasp of Bali and Indonesia if any at all. But Thailand is maybe what VS Naipaul would call another wounded civilization, wounded by Chinese colonialism and/or western pressure over the centuries. I don’t know. But Thailand is fast becoming the sick man of ASEAN with no will to get it together and as such is too ill to offer much of anything to holidaymakers anymore.

There you have it, just my opinion on a very interesting question I hope I am wrong about the bad things I think I have noticed, but that is how it seems these days. I was planning to go to Bali again this year, but it isn’t going to happen, we have to take care of people in the family who are sick with cancer likely from agricultural chemicals and far too young, younger than the wife and I. I hope she recovers, looks like she will but who knows, I don’t trust doctors here at all, they have dithered for years with her and now that she has cancer they start doing something or so it seems and maybe next year we can go to Bali worry free. My favorite spot in the world to go for a vacation!

[Flanno]

I first visited Bali in 1981 and it was close to being an island paradise. On the same trip I also spent time in Phuket (mostly Patong Beach) and it was also a lot more pleasant (and smaller) than it is now. Sadly as the years rolled on and with rapid development taking it's toll neither location is paradise any longer.

I agree with a previous poster in that you cannot compare Bali (an island of Indonesia) with the whole of Thailand. Hence my comparison of Bali and Phuket.

Since 1981 I have been to both places many times (cheap airfares from Australia) but now prefer quieter and more sedate places like Chiang Mai and Hua Hin. There are quite a few reasons why I have given Bali a miss in recent years. The primary one is the migration of non Balinese Indonesians to the island which has in turn destroyed much of the beautiful and rich Balinese culture. Bali no longer feels like the Bali of previous years.

[smotherb]

Philippines is a much surer bet.

for what?......its a complete shitehole with some of the worst food in the world.

Well, cigarettes, beer, and spirits are cheaper and most of the girls are looking for a way out. They do speak some English and there are beautiful islands everywhere. However, the corruption, weather, infrastructure and prices for food, housing, petrol are terrible; and as you say, the local food sucks.

Oh, I forgot, now someone will get me for the off-topic post.

[Jiggo]

Philippines is a much surer bet.

Much safer as well.....

[pluto_manibo]

I travel a lot to Bali for the Surf. I considered moving there for that same reason. After half a dozen extended trips over the last two years, I reconsidered this. I contracted Chikungunya there last year and was exposed to the medical care provided, it was decent yet very expensive at the foreigner oriented clinic. Traffic is another major issue, really dangerous, too many cars and motorbikes and very narrow streets. A lot of the people I met who lived in the Seminyak and Canggu area, renting villas, had problems with burglaries. Part of the blame can be put on the "charming" open living plan of the houses. Pollution is also an issue. Quality of food and hygiene is also less than acceptable. In regards to the Surf, which is the only reason, I would live there. It is amazing but getting to Surf spots( Police checks, Parking motorbikes, theft, localism etc...)can be problematic. It is also very crowded. I understand long term visas can be an ordeal as well. The food is not to my taste at all, too greasy. No where is perfect, you must weigh the pros and the cons and find what is acceptable for you.

The positive for me, apart from the surf, was the geography of the island. Volcanoes, cliff bordered beaches, surf breaks, beach breaks, rice paddies coffee plantations etc...The people outside the tourist beaten paths can be charming. Friendships can be made more easily with locals. Yes, cost of living is slightly less then Thailand, depending on how you choose to live. However, it can escalate very fast, if you have a medical emergency(you would probably end up going straight to Bangkok or Singapore for medical care). The Visa shuffle can be a drag and costly. I would conclude by saying, Bali is a great place to visit and return to, it has its charms and the surf is second to none. However, Thailand has better infrastructure and services for long term stays.

[hugh2121]

You should be aware that Indonesia has every natural and unnatural proble in the universe. Start with earthquakes on to Tsunami, thru volcano eruptions & occasional flooding and landslides. Un natural, restrictive dress codes, many religious, ( mostly Muslim ),customs/traditions and a non covert dislike of anything Western.I wouldn't live there free !

The comparison is supposed to be with Bali, not Indonesia. Bali is Hindu not Muslim. It has no more quakes than the rest of SE Asia. It has never had a tsunami. No major volcanic eruptions for many years. Landslides? haven't heard of any. Bali has absolutely no imposed dress codes except to cover the legs when entering a temple. Westerners are welcomed, there is no dislike either overt or covert.

Clearly you have never visited Bali, fred.

[yaudah]

and this includes the Island of the Gods "Bali".

http://portraitindonesia.com/indonesian-kids-dont-know-how-stupid-they-are/

definitely:

- more hassle

- higher prices

- more criminality

and to top it off "crappy local cuisine" the only Gourmets you find in the Indonesian kitchen are Kamikaze ones.

[cruisemonkey]

Different levels of incompetence.

[thailandforumaddict]

When you will know that Muslim are trying to take over all Indonesia including Bali you will feel so stupid...

You should be aware that Indonesia has every natural and unnatural proble in the universe. Start with earthquakes on to Tsunami, thru volcano eruptions & occasional flooding and landslides. Un natural, restrictive dress codes, many religious, ( mostly Muslim ),customs/traditions and a non covert dislike of anything Western.I wouldn't live there free !

The comparison is supposed to be with Bali, not Indonesia. Bali is Hindu not Muslim. It has no more quakes than the rest of SE Asia. It has never had a tsunami. No major volcanic eruptions for many years. Landslides? haven't heard of any. Bali has absolutely no imposed dress codes except to cover the legs when entering a temple. Westerners are welcomed, there is no dislike either overt or covert.

Clearly you have never visited Bali, fred.

[elgenon]

I was in Bali years ago and hated Kuta (though the people were great) but loved Ubud. Lots of artists and way more relaxed. Met a woman on the plane from HK in July who was returning from a Yoga thing in Bali. Said the traffic was horrible. Have a friend who used to spend a lot of time surfing in Bali. He said the traffic has been bad for 10 years and is now very bad. Again, the people are great.

Is "Eat, Drink, Pray" partly responsible? Similar to hordes of Chinese flocking to CM because of a movie.

[Lissos]

I can't compare the two for long term living, but as a quick summary.

Because Bali has many Javans too, that is factored into the following.

+ I find Indonesians very life loving and happy fun people.

+ I sense that they feel neither better nor less than foreigners.

+ For this reason, they mix with us more and everyone has fun.

- That same excitability means sometimes they get very noisy.

- At 3am, in a group of 5 in the room next to you in a losmen.

+ Very apologetic when you remind them nicely that it is 3am.

- Personal space is not seen quite how we tend to revere it. It is (for example) not unusual to rent a sunbed and umbrella to later hear voices an inch from your ear then turn round to find a visiting Javan family of 6 having lunch on the sand in your umbrella shade without even asking...lol

+ That same thing means people approach you, and many friends are made.

- Traffic is indeed horrendous. Waaaay to many motorbikes (noise, fumes)

- Motorbikes blatantly riding up pavements / sidewalks. Nowhere is sacred.

- Very few bookshop offerings in Bali. Most books in Bahasa.

- Internet stability and speed is baaad in Wi-Fi spots (cafes, etc).

+ Cute pretty Girls. Subjective of course. I find Indonesians a very handsome people (true Balinese less though, I have to admit). Some don't see any pretty Girls in Bali, claiming Thailand is where they all are. I say the complete opposite (about Indonesians in general, Balinese less) and see Thais as having been dealt a raw deal in that regard. All subjective.

+ Indonesian women are often cute, small AND shapely, a great combo.

- True public transport as we know it, doesn't really exist on Bali.

+ Companies like Perama fill that gap (along with a million Ojek taxi)

+ English knowledge is on the whole very good.

+ Bahasa Indonesian uses Latin script. Gives you a huge headstart.

+ Indonesians don't feel threatened by you learning their language.

+ In fact, they love you using it and assist learning with gusto.

+ Indonesian women are cute, but with a Hijab they look as cute as a puppy.

[TheAsiaTraveler]

I love both places. I would go for Phuket in terms of quality of the white beaches.

However, Bali has beautiful beaches too. In fact, they have both black and white sand beaches. On top of that, Balinese culture and tradition is so rich that it makes it even more interesting than Phuket or any destinations in Thailand.

Unfortunately for Phuket, there's not much culture left. The only old thing that you can see in Phuket is the Phuket Town where you can find old building. Other than that, everything is new with condominiums, hotels and resorts built here and there.

[McMacao]

On 8/11/2015 at 3:23 AM, Shaunduhpostman said:

Hello to all!

Yes I know, I have written a whole book here. I find the topic very interesting is all. I had a great time in Bali last year and I live in Thailand and have lived in Jakarta for a year recently as well. You could just skip my post, if the topic isn’t that intersting to you, I know this post is too long for most people, it is really over the top in length and hopefully it won't get me banned, sorry if I have gotten in your way scrolling down the page. Scroll on!

 

Also, sorry to lovers of Thai holiday destinations, I live in Thailand and have done so mostly for the last 16 years, yet I regret to say that I am frankly rather fed up with Thailand as a place to holiday, and I realize that perhaps it has as much to do with me as it does Thailand, but that is how it stands anyway at this point, that I don't like holidaying here though I once did. That said, I enjoy my life here as a foreign resident generally speaking, I am very lucky to have a supportive and very nice family whom I trust and enjoy being with. The fact that Thailand still affords a reasonably good quality of life for the money allows me much freedom I would not have elsewhere, so you can’t ask for much else. I am also sorry to say I am not going to compare Thailand as a holiday destination favorably to Bali here and I do that out of love and concern for Thailand and in hopes that they improve things a bit, an alcohol ban is making an Afghanistan out of the place and nobody likes to go there for a holiday. Even that aside Thailand was alreday clearly losing the race for my holiday buck and I am now much more than happy to spend it in Bali than anyplace here when I get the chance. Also I think much of what is not good for holiday makers ends up not being good for Thais and other residents. Also, tourism is a bit of a dead end for many countries and it has a lot of fallout for whatever benefits come from it, and all the people coming through Thailand have left their mark and unfortunately Thailand seems less and less able to cope well with some of it. Countries don’t get rich off of tourism, so you have to wonder why should they care that much anyway and it appears that Thailand doesn’t care about tourism, the industry may indeed only be truly important to the ruling establishment only as a kind of nice diplomatic facade that helps smooth over what is a rather medieval system at the core, one that John Kerry wouldn’t approve of, so it is perhaps needed so that we are spared some of his chastisements.

 

In the tourist areas in Thailand too often you are just made a mockery of by clerks, sellers and others you depend on for your holiday. Many of them just can’t be asked. Or at least I am just messsed with anyway. It's just painful and not a lot else. I don't have to go into it. I don’t feel it was always that way but it seems so now.

 

Bali, on the the other hand, the one time we went, last year, was a whole world of difference. I have spent a lot of time in Jakarta as a resident as well, and I feel Indonesians, generally speaking don't seem to have a problem with being present, reasonable and cognizant or doing their jobs in some simple capacity such as being a waiter or cashier or hotel desk clerk or cab driver, the very people holiday makers most often depend on to have a chance at having a good time. So everything pretty much follows very smoothly from there, that service empoyees are better. The people you will be dealing with are not only mostly more reasonable than in Thaiand, but by and large many are downright witty and articulate and enjoy interacting with others. It is not uncommon to happen into Balinese or Indonesians who seem to enjoy having met you. I don’t get the sense they are sucking up to me, like they want something else from me if they are being friendly which i get all too often here. They have the English skills as well. Indonesians seem to clearly have a much better education system and/or an overall better attitude towards learning. Thais by comparison seem to be in some kind of trance and not willing to come out of it. I am sorry to be that way, but how else can you describe your interactions or non-interactions with people in Bangkok, Pattaya, Ko Samui, Phuket etc? I feel I am not even respected as a human being half the time. If I am not super fit in designer wear, big nosy looking eyes magnified by conspicuous eyewear with a crass hair weave, I’m stuffed.

 

Bali has a lot to offer I think, perhaps more than Thailand. It is nothing that anyone has done in particular in many cases, it is just how things have worked out due to history, geology, geography, biology, ecology etc. I too avoided the hugely touristy areas in Bali, or at least Kuta anyway. I think that is also the large part of the reason Thai service staff are so unpleasant and uncooperative much of the time, Thais are burned out on tourists, and in some ways you can't blame them really, but Thailand doesn't really win my sympathy on that account, there is an element of chip on the shoulder with more and more people I encounter on my unfortunately necessary forays into Bangkok and other areas. There is the much lamented nationalism and racism to boot that is also a contributing factor I’m sure and it really is hard sell to appreciate any more or sympathize with Thailand’s obvious problems.

 

Though we didn’t go there, I assume that Kuta would be similarly unpleasant as Pattaya due to the hordes of tourists, so we decided to give it a miss and there's nothing much there that isn't elsewhere in Bali unless you want to be with lots of other tourists, mostly younger I have heard tell.

 

However, we stayed the first and last part of our two weeks fairly near to Kuta in Seminyak which is clearly very touristy, though I thought in an interesting and hip way and found the hotel staff where we stayed to be not only helpful but a downright blast. That never happens to me in Thailand. Maybe I'm just an <deleted> or something. But the hotel staff in Seminyak seemed genuinely interested in meeting people and enjoyed interacting with the guests. It was a cheap budget hotel to boot, so these were not people doing this to impress the hisos or keep a high paying job at a high end hotel or something. There was nothing in it for them. But whatever the case, I have never felt that the hotel staff liked me at all anywhere at any time at any hotel in Thailand. They politely endure your intrusions on their space, sometimes with a smile and sometimes do their jobs if they feel like it, but don’t push your luck. Polite, a bit helpful at times but distant, and that is all I ask for, but it usually isn't on, or not these days anyway.

 

My wife was really thrilled with the interesting shops with all manner of independent clothing designers showing their stuff. Some really interesting stuff I’ve never seen hide nor hair of in Thailand tourist areas. I thought the restaurants in Seminyak were fantastic. Some seriously creative quality cooking going on and at prices that will not wipe you out. Fat Gadjah is one amazing Asian fusion cooking restaurant that could not exist in Thailand, or not for peasants like me anyway. It would only be found in some hip area such as Thong Lor where you would be made to feel like you had shat in your pants, if as an old washed up farang you had the nerve to enter, “Oh! Too late, na! Old fat old pink man you not very chick! Could you please return to Patpong where you belong? Didn’t you know They have a free hamburger or hot dog there for you! And sexy lady too! Go on! Shoo! We don’t want your money, you will ruin our rep showing your face in here, please go now!”

 

There was a burger joint in Seminyak that was equally fantastic, gourmet burgers at reasonable prices and no pretension just kick ass quality burgers and fries to go and take down to the beach and eat. The fish in my fish burger was so fresh that it was half alive, just gorgeous sweet melt in your mouth white fish meat of some sort, not from a frozen patty, absolute dynamite.

 

Alcoholic drinks are not so good in Bali, or expensive due to taxation, worse than Thailand, but Guiness is available at a normal price and I'd rather have Guiness than Singha and certainly more than Beer Chang. There is also a German owned brewery in Bali that does damn nice wheat and wheat dunkel that is not impossible to find in shops and restaurants in Indonesia and Bali. Also, not expensive, but it is difficult to find their beers in Bali which seems odd because they’re based in Lovina somewhere. I had better luck finding their beer in Jakarta where I first encountered the Bali wheat beers. I don't care for Indonesia's Bintang too much, but it is as drinkable as Beer Singha and about 25% cheaper. It has an OK faint bitter hoppy zing for a factory lager, but at the end of the day is what it is, there’s no further kidding around about it to be done. Wine is outrageously taxed, so as much as I like wine, it isn't on in Indonesia, just ridiculous, forget it or you'll be broke fast.

 

The beach at Seminyak is leagues beyond any urban beach in Thailand, fresh breeze constantly blowing, seemingly happier locals playing beach football, partying cheerfully, etc. not a feeling of malice from some people as I sometimes get at the main Pattaya beach, whether it is people sizing you up wondering if they can hustle you for something, the hopped up jet ski hooligains, or some western yobbohs maybe giving you a spin just to vent, or what have you. Going to the beach at Seminyak, it is crowded, but ebullient, you come away refreshed by the breeze the waves the width and expanse of the beach a full 100 yards wide and probably almost certainly more. There is all sorts of interesting seawrack on the shore, colorful shells, water erosion worn pieces of coral, I found an old chinese coin that looked like it had been underwater for decades. Good body surfing in the decent to monstorous sized waves which i enjoy. Dangerous rip tide areas clearly marked with flags. One major downside is that there was raw sewage run off going straight from big hotels to the beach and into the sea. You could smell what it was. However we found a pretty long stretch where there was none of that and it seemed much cleaner otherwise than any Thai beach I have been to. I come off the beach in Thailand feeling hot, like someone has dumped a sticky hot can of coke on my head and I am burned out and dying to get back to the room. Granted, that is simply a consequnce of Thailand beaches being on a large gulf and not open ocean as is the south facing coast of Bali. But sorry it just isn’t my thing, Thai beaches. It would be more refreshing to soak in a luke warm tub of my own crud with Thelonius Monk on the box and nice glass of sticky ruby red black brown Weihenstphaner Korbinian, my go to double bock, available in supermarkets everywhere in Bangkok and Pattaya. And I give Thailand that, beer and wine availability is some of the best in Asia and that is important to many a holidayer, but seems they are trying to put an end to as well with new alcohol bans.

 

Ubud, our next destination after Seminyak has a mind blowing array of art and temples and also excellent places to stay and eat. Blows Chiang Mai out of the water, imho. The mytho-religious practices seem to still be intact and the performance aspect has always been a part of the authentic culture, so tourists coming to gawk is not much different than locals coming to gawk at the gods decending into the bodies of performers. There is nothing clap trap or tourist trappy about any of it. Maybe I am fooled but as a tourist that is all I ask, I suppose. Ladies firing darts out of their pussies at the Pat Pong ping pong show, ok, you wonder hmmm…maybe some traditional excersise that enables them to do that. Whoa! But my father tells me, no, they were doing that at strip clubs in San Francisco back in the 40’s, perhaps brought over to the bay from Hong Kong. And a bit of a one dimesional gag and nothing else even if in fact it twas developed here and taken to Hong Kong. The kecak fire dances put you right into contact with something mysterious as the performers romp barefooted in fire and hot coals in a possien state, or so they tell you, and come away unscathed. Even if that is bs, the live Balinese gamelan and dance is virtuoso stuff and more than makes up for that, the likes of which died out in Thailand decades ago, if it wasn't outright quashed by someone who didn't happen to like it. The whole expat painters in the 20th century phenomena is fascinating and the influence they had on Balinese painters produced something that was just amazing. It is like jazz in New Orleans, an example of people meeting up from around the world and producing something truly new together. It is a shame I was born too late to have been there for it all. There is still a ton of the world class painting done at that time on display at well maintained even gorgeous museums in Ubud. There are well written explanations and displays that explain the whole scene and the mythology and other subjects in the paintings as well as good pamplets at the museums giving bio details on the Balinese, Dutch, Mexican even Russian masters who together made a new kind of Balinese art. I am sorry, Thailand has a history of snubbing the whole rest of the world, nobody is going to be open to foreign artists here, or only on the sly, appropriated, pastiched but not taken in and developed as something new. It is very winning to see that at least at one time the Balinese were that open that they began participating in western style painting and truly making it their own. It is enthralling what happened in Bali during the 30’s until th 70’s. I was converted to being a big fan of Balinese painting during my stay. Another good thing was having such beautiful museums to myself. Totally deserted. I guess everyone gets their daily imagery nutritional requirements with the internet these days. The lack of interest doesn't bode well for the future of the museums tho, really sad.

 

If you like underwater life as I do, Bali has stellar scuba and snorkelling at such places as Nusa Penida, Menjangan Island, and Amed. Nowhere in Thailand comes close, Ko Tao is a despoiled wasteland compared to those places with a dying underwater ecology. Ko Surin and the Sembilans are relatively difficult and expensive to access and not as good anyway osso it seems from all the photos on flickr. Menjangan and the nearby mainland fringing reef at Permuteran are teeming with coral and fish species and very easy access. You can stay right there on the beach in Permuteran on Bali's extreme northwest corner, in excellent Bungalows for 900 baht a night with an amazing snorkel or scuba dive right at your doorstep. Great seafood, Indonesian, Italian etc available in cafes in the area. At Permuteran they are actively working to restore the coral reef and you can snorkel out 50 yards and see the results which are hundreds of coral species and probably a thousand kinds of fish. Jet skis? They don't want no stinkin jet skis and banana boats in Permuteran! As several locals remarked to me, this is Indonesia's natural fish aquarium, we don’t want that here! Menjangan island off the coast is mind blowing. I have never seen better coral or underwater life ever. Thailand's sea life is depleted by comparison. We didn't go to Amed or Nusa Lembongan/Penida , but I have read that there is a whole other marine environment that is equally vibrant at these places on Bali. The diving tour people who took the group out to Menjangan, all Balinese guys, were also a blast. They had real a passion and interest in what they were doing. I sat and talked marine life with them for a whole hour in their shop and when we went out the next day they knew I was as keen as they were and they were pointing all kinds of stuff out to me explaining stuff. It's like there's a law against that kind of thing in Thailand, you're not allowed to be interested in anything or care. Explaining or telling anyone anything is like giving up state secrets. It is heartbreaking sometimes how little joy anyone takes in knowing anything or taking any interest in their world in Thailand. But the snorkelling day tour cost was very reasonable and going to Menjangan is a must for anyone with interest in marine life. Clearly the ocean in Bali hasn’t been totally FUBAR’d by the fishing industry and a tourist industry that cares little about the environment. Not that Indonesia gets off the hook either on that account, but at least in Bali, from what I saw, mostly so far so good, some obvious appreciation and awareness of the importance of trying perserve the sea environment in Permuteran.

 

When we wanted to leave Seminyak for Ubud, I decided to ask the cab drivers hanging around outside the hotel what they wanted for the trip. I would never ask cab drivers hanging around outside a hotel in Thailand to take me anywhere, let alone even start talking to them. That is asking to be ripped off or even asking for trouble or at best they will just diddle you with some misinformation or simply not be bothered to understand anything you've said in Thai or English and blow you off. But we had spent 3 days in Seminyak and everytime we stepped out I took in the whole cab driver scene getting a good rough reading on them and then had a few conversations with some of them and after a few days felt assured and comfortable that they were genuinely cool guys and probably good for a trauma free ride of a few hours to Ubud. So when it came time to go, I had little trepidation and we struck a deal for a ride to Ubud. The guy was very well spoken in English and once we shoved off and were on our way he said, "If you want we can stop at many places along the way, there's a lot of interesting shops and so on.Just let me know what you want to see or do, I don't mind I am not too busy today." My wife and I both love batik and he gladly took us to some excellent places on the road from Seminyak to Ubud. As we passed through each hamlet he mentioned what there was to see and take a stop if we wanted. This place was good for stone work, that place was good for jewellery, this place had a nice place for a good cup of coffee etc. The guy knew the whole area like the back of his hand. One batik place was just massive, jaw dropping array of stuff at all prices and quality levels. I had to have two shirts and my wife got some stuff as well, very reasonably priced and good stuff that I still love wearing a year later. The driver had lots of information and tips and seemingly just given because he was interested and enjoyed sharing his knowledge, it was not a big deal to him. I'm sure it made his job all the more pleasant and interesting for him. When we stopped he would make some quick offerings to the local gods and my wife and I asked him about it and he was very open about it and explained more than I thought he should, as perhaps maybe somethings should be left unsaid in those matters, but that is perhaps just my particular hangup. He was quite into spirituality and curious about Thai traditions and so on and asked us about Thai Buddhism as he was intersted in Buddhism though born and raised a Hindu and continuing that way. We had a great conversation with him about Buddhism, Balinese spirituality meditation etc, unbelieveable coming from a cab driver, but when we came back another cab driver knowing that we were from Thailand also began asking us about Buddhism and he too was a very keen meditator had read a lot also and had a lot to say on the topics as we took a long ride from Seminyak to Legian to check out the beach and the scene there. I'm sorry but that just isn't going to happen with your random taxi driver off the street in Thailand.

 

Just based on one trip to Bali, it seems a clearly better place to go, for me and my interests anyway (food, mythology, spirituality, the sea, art, music and talking with others). Maybe I am just burned out and bitter regarding Thailand, but I still love it here as my home, I just fail to see the tourist destinations as having anything to offer any more at this point, unless you've never been here before. Bali has a depth and wealth that is just phenomenal. It just isn't here to that extent that it is in Bali. Thailand is a top destination in Asia, a must for any travel nut, make no mistake, but I think there are many reasons it is not a place to go back to once you’ve been. And I am sorry to say the people just don’t like you except for your money as many of us well know. But it makes for a one-dimensional country as far as tourism goes. It isn’t just about this thing or that thing in the country it is as much about who you meet and if we are just meat to those we meet then you can just go have your meeting with yourselves and be irrelevant and meet yourselves we’ll be going to Bulgaria next summer, Prudence and Persnipyoola and the gang, hmmph!

 

From some of the things in the news, seems there are some of the same problems in Bali as Thailand. Indonesia is horrendously corrupt, it is actually probably much worse than Thailand. You can also easily get sick and die in Jakarta from cholera for example. It happened to ex-pats I worked with and Jakartans all have their stories of getting appallingly sick multiple times from airborne sewage everywhere not to mention waterborn sewage when the whole city gets hoplessly flooded, beyond anything Bangkok has ever seen. It is absolute mess of a city dragging 20 million people down the drain along with it. The government charges extortionate levels of income tax yet many neighborhoods in Jakarta are criss crossed with busted up pavement. The rivers are literally choked with poo and rotting garbage, you can’t even see the water it appears to in fact not even be a body of water but to a long narrow garbage dump, but indeed it is a river. Your skin will begin to burn and itch being 200 yards away from it. It is real 3rd world nightmare stuff, yet the rich I believe put the Thai elites in the dust, they are far wealthier with a much larger counrty to exploit, but it is the same Sino tribes that control Thailand so it only goes to show you how bad things may get as far as the country being sucked dry by the elites. How it has to do with Bali is that I was skeptical that things were as paradisal as it seemed as the Javanese seem to have a real presence in Bali and of course those running Jakarta run the whole country, so you wonder if indeed the place isn’t more polluted than it seems to the average passerby like myself.

 

Bali is much cleaner than Jakarta but I doubt medical personel are any more competent or less mercenary. Jakartans never stopped warning me of the horrors that await you should have to see a doctor in Indonesia and they never stopped warning me about police. Scary stories abound. Jokes also abound but as not so veiled warnings to all. Thais cops are pussy cats by comparison. You don't EVEN want to get stopped by a cop in Indo. You could easily disappear to enormous manifold of chaos that only the likes of a master of the logically absurd such as a Borges could dream up. Who would know who would care where you went? A kind of Austro-Hungarian broken monstrosity of a system. The one time cops started walking my direction one day when I was out shopping in Jakarta, I pretended to have forgotten something, slapped my forehead and ran in the opposite direction, back into the shopping mall. My Jakartan collleagues would laugh and say that was a good move, you probably were about to get hauled in on some made up nonesense charge! From living in and working in Jakarta you run into just stunning levels of mass level coordinated incompetence and corruption, levels of which Thailand could never reach simply because there aren't enough people. Jakarta is beyond the pale, there is some seriously shocking stuff there. It’s the hub of a weird empire few know or care anythng about beyond Indonesia. But on a one to one or work level I find it so much easier to deal with Indonesians generally speaking and feel they understand friendship, value others, and understand that cooperating with others often saves everyone a lot of trouble and headache. In Thailand most people don’t seem to care about themselves let alone you. Perhaps it is all Indonesians have are their friends and family and those around them, that and a cultural diversity that doesn't allow them to be so narrow and nationalistic. They have to take interest in you to figure out the code, what’s going to work and not work perhaps. Bali seemed a world apart but the Balinese seem to have no problem stepping back and forth between their world and those of the Javanese and other outsiders with a strong presence. I don’t see that level of resiliency, flexibility or confidence in Thailand. And it makes them not nearly as fit to be good or even decent hosts to tourism. It all seems to just devolve into what you will pay them and then please move along the airport is over there. That’s all most Thais seem to feel comfortable with. Perhaps I would see it differently if I lived in Indonesia or Bali for a longer time and I realize i have superficial grasp of Bali and Indonesia if any at all. But Thailand is maybe what VS Naipaul would call another wounded civilization, wounded by Chinese colonialism and/or western pressure over the centuries. I don’t know. But Thailand is fast becoming the sick man of ASEAN with no will to get it together and as such is too ill to offer much of anything to holidaymakers anymore.

 

There you have it, just my opinion on a very interesting question I hope I am wrong about the bad things I think I have noticed, but that is how it seems these days. I was planning to go to Bali again this year, but it isn’t going to happen, we have to take care of people in the family who are sick with cancer likely from agricultural chemicals and far too young, younger than the wife and I. I hope she recovers, looks like she will but who knows, I don’t trust doctors here at all, they have dithered for years with her and now that she has cancer they start doing something or so it seems and maybe next year we can go to Bali worry free. My favorite spot in the world to go for a vacation!

The catch is that...it seems to me...anyways.  You enjoyed being a TOURIST in Bali.  You were having fun tourist experience.

 

All the negatives you quoted of Thailand, are not negatives to tourists.  Tourists see the same things in Thailand, that you were seeing in Bali.

 

That being said, I enjoyed the long insight post, as there were a ton of interesting nuggets of gold and perception throughout.  Much appreciation.

[phuketrichard]

I was in Bali, Oct 14-29th, rented a bike in Kuta an rode up the west coast across the top down to Mt/lake Batur over to Amed and along the east coast, ubud and back to Kuta,

although the north is nice it is WAY to crowded and i was there in the low low season. Ubud was a nightmare. Kuta constantly hassled on the roads and on the beach by old ladies wanting to sell u stuff of give u a massage.  Previous visit was in 2001 ans i loved it. traffic is terrible ,EXPENSIVE, even compared to phuket. I cant even begin to image what its like in high season

Wont ever go back,they truly ruined Paradise