Corruption vs bureaucracy

[robblok]

No point scored by you at all.. just twisting facts and coming up with far fetched scenarios to try to get your points.

I never said the west was perfect, i said corruption was bad and in the west there is far less of it so you got far more recourse and protection of the law then you have here.

I like it here, but I am smart enough to see the dangers of corruption.

Not trying to score points....gave up keeping track of "winners" and "losers" .when I was young.....look at life differently now....I calling it "living"

AND "living" in Thailand or the west it just takes learning the "system" and playing the game of that "system"....call me selfish, naive....doesn't matter ...I adjust to the situation where ever and whatever it is....

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

[beachproperty]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Yes but you have just highlighted why it's so wrong and that bureaucracy has its merits...it's for those who have the dollars who it best serves.

I don't have a great opinion of Thailand because of the rich v poor divide and the lack of social mobility..corruption just enhances it..

You are absolutely right.....problem is, East or West, the poor vs rich divide is huge...and it is the poor that always get stepped on.

[robblok]

That is twisting and turning as where i come from it would have been the obligation of the electric company to maintain it and remove the old pole. I would not even have to pay. So in this case if you were in the west you would not have to pay and now you had too.

So you were at a disadvantage paying for something that should be free. I like your fantasy world.

As for your US story.. there is corruption in the west just far less... and when discovered it is punished harshly just like your facts show. Unlike here where it is not and that allows it to grow and grow.

robblok you wrote "As for your US story.. there is corruption in the west just far less"

And I thought I was the naive one.....Just look at the headlines regarding corporate greed....and that only shows a small portion of corruption that goes on...

Where do you think "Senators" go after their term ...they become corporate consultants because they were on the payroll before and this is their pay back.

Could you please first explain why you paid for something that would have been free in the West and your proud of it and call it an advantage ?

[robblok]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Yes but you have just highlighted why it's so wrong and that bureaucracy has its merits...it's for those who have the dollars who it best serves.

I don't have a great opinion of Thailand because of the rich v poor divide and the lack of social mobility..corruption just enhances it..

You are absolutely right.....problem is, East or West, the poor vs rich divide is huge...and it is the poor that always get stepped on.

yes and corruption only makes the poor more vulnerable now do you get it ?.

[beachproperty]

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

Hate to say it ....I agree with you except when you say.

"In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win."

Guess you never heard of the OJ Simpson case ....

[beachproperty]

Could you please first explain why you paid for something that would have been free in the West and your proud of it and call it an advantage ?

Because I realize how little these government workers make and just trying to help him out. Its like giving a tip for a service....I didn't ask him to do it quickly...he just did

[robblok]

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

Hate to say it ....I agree with you except when you say.

"In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win."

Guess you never heard of the OJ Simpson case ....

Your a funny guy.. you take one example where it goes wrong and act like that is the norm.

If you want to be truthful you should compare how often things like that would happen here.. and back in the west.

I know for a fact that in the Netherlands if I had a home and someone with money and power wanted to build a bar near it he could forget about it in a residential area. I think in general the same can be said in the US (might be some exceptions but that is not the norm).

Here someone with power could build a bar next to my home and I would have no recourse .. here this would be the norm that people with power win because of corruption.

[melvinmelvin]

Where is this west you're talking about? Rather vague term.

Between here and the 0-meridian? Between here and the dateline (going westwards)? Or somewhere else?

Seems to me you are covering a huge number of countries with this west term. And you are sure all this countries you call WEST are the same?

[robblok]

Could you please first explain why you paid for something that would have been free in the West and your proud of it and call it an advantage ?

Because I realize how little these government workers make and just trying to help him out. Its like giving a tip for a service....I didn't ask him to do it quickly...he just did

Ill be wise I let other users read it and judge how your story of how you had to pay for the maintenance of power-lines (something that should have been free) is a good thing because government workers make not much money.

So you end up paying for something that you should not have and justify it by with this while you first said it was a great example of why corruption was so good.

Anyway you have your views I have mine... lets keep it at this it gets boring.

[beachproperty]

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

Hate to say it ....I agree with you except when you say.

"In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win."

Guess you never heard of the OJ Simpson case ....

Your a funny guy.. you take one example where it goes wrong and act like that is the norm.

If you want to be truthful you should compare how often things like that would happen here.. and back in the west.

I know for a fact that in the Netherlands if I had a home and someone with money and power wanted to build a bar near it he could forget about it in a residential area. I think in general the same can be said in the US (might be some exceptions but that is not the norm).

Here someone with power could build a bar next to my home and I would have no recourse .. here this would be the norm that people with power win because of corruption.

And here I thought you knew more about Thailand than you do.....the reason such can happen is that there are no zoning laws in Thailand...you can build whatever you want whereever you want.....

That's not an example of corruption in Thailand ....its just the way it is

[melvinmelvin]

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

Hate to say it ....I agree with you except when you say.

"In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win."

Guess you never heard of the OJ Simpson case ....

Your a funny guy.. you take one example where it goes wrong and act like that is the norm.

If you want to be truthful you should compare how often things like that would happen here.. and back in the west.

I know for a fact that in the Netherlands if I had a home and someone with money and power wanted to build a bar near it he could forget about it in a residential area. I think in general the same can be said in the US (might be some exceptions but that is not the norm).

Here someone with power could build a bar next to my home and I would have no recourse .. here this would be the norm that people with power win because of corruption.

And here I thought you knew more about Thailand than you do.....the reason such can happen is that there are no zoning laws in Thailand...you can build whatever you want whereever you want.....

That's not an example of corruption in Thailand ....its just the way it is

arai krap?

there are zoning laws in LoS

[beachproperty]

Could you please first explain why you paid for something that would have been free in the West and your proud of it and call it an advantage ?

Because I realize how little these government workers make and just trying to help him out. Its like giving a tip for a service....I didn't ask him to do it quickly...he just did

Ill be wise I let other users read it and judge how your story of how you had to pay for the maintenance of power-lines (something that should have been free) is a good thing because government workers make not much money.

So you end up paying for something that you should not have and justify it by with this while you first said it was a great example of why corruption was so good.

Anyway you have your views I have mine... lets keep it at this it gets boring.

Would love to keep it at that ....but you summarized it wrong...I didn't have to pay, I was not using it as an example of corruption (those are your characterizations)....he was not looking for a bribe....It would have been done for free....I'm just not a cheap charlie like you are....I gave him 1000 Baht because I realize how tough life is for 99% of the Thai's....

[beachproperty]

arai krap?

there are zoning laws in LoS

Yeah...parameters of how high you can build and setbacks....not what you can build ....at least where I live.

I stand corrected ..there are further restrictions ...ie windows on property line

But as for "use" ....At least where I live ...there are few if any restrictions....

[robblok]

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

Hate to say it ....I agree with you except when you say.

"In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win."

Guess you never heard of the OJ Simpson case ....

Your a funny guy.. you take one example where it goes wrong and act like that is the norm.

If you want to be truthful you should compare how often things like that would happen here.. and back in the west.

I know for a fact that in the Netherlands if I had a home and someone with money and power wanted to build a bar near it he could forget about it in a residential area. I think in general the same can be said in the US (might be some exceptions but that is not the norm).

Here someone with power could build a bar next to my home and I would have no recourse .. here this would be the norm that people with power win because of corruption.

And here I thought you knew more about Thailand than you do.....the reason such can happen is that there are no zoning laws in Thailand...you can build whatever you want whereever you want.....

That's not an example of corruption in Thailand ....its just the way it is

No, there are zoning laws and building regulations. I guess you did not hear about the hotel in Pattaya that had to be demolished because it was too high. Maybe you also did not hear about the restrictions they have in BKK about the width of a streets because of fire engines. So what your saying is wrong. Also you can't build a house with windows straight at the edge of your property there are rules for that. So yes there are zoning laws and building laws in Thailand.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/349442/zoning-plan-comes-under-fire

Not sure if I know more or less about Thailand than you I don't care about that.

[beachproperty]

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

Hate to say it ....I agree with you except when you say.

"In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win."

Guess you never heard of the OJ Simpson case ....

Your a funny guy.. you take one example where it goes wrong and act like that is the norm.

If you want to be truthful you should compare how often things like that would happen here.. and back in the west.

I know for a fact that in the Netherlands if I had a home and someone with money and power wanted to build a bar near it he could forget about it in a residential area. I think in general the same can be said in the US (might be some exceptions but that is not the norm).

Here someone with power could build a bar next to my home and I would have no recourse .. here this would be the norm that people with power win because of corruption.

Having had a career in the legal field in the west .....The OJ Simpson case is NOT the only one which illustrates my point ....Its just the most highly publicised one...one which I would think most have heard of.....Soooo its NOT a "one of"

Have you not heard of people being released from prison after 30 years because DNA evidence now proves them innocent? They were right (innocent) but didn't win!

[GuestHouse]

In the bureaucracy laden western society where I currently reside I had to deal with unbelievable waiting time, paper shuffling and prevarication - not.

In one afternoon, I registered with the local council, registered to vote in local elections, received my social security number and national ID card, received my access card for the local garbage disposal and recycle facilities, was handed a card which apparently lets me borrow books from local and national libraries (for free), and received another card, that while it cost me 60 euros, gives me a year of free access to museums, art galleries and national muniment buildings across the whole nation.

This process was handled so disgustingly quickly that I had enough time, and therefore no excuses, to visit the bank, show them my local registration receipt and ID card, they opened an account for me, handed me an ATM card, I signed another bit of paper and three days later a credit card arrived with a credit limit equivalent to 3 months of my salary. I had asked if I needed to deposit an amount equivalent to the credit limit in an account for security - they seemed not to understand this idea.

You can imagine my thoughts and trepidation when Mrs GH turned up and I had to take her down the local authority to go through the whole rigmarole again.

She like me, was ushered through the whole process at a disgustingly high speed.

What was the question?

[beachproperty]

In the bureaucracy laden western society where I currently reside I had to deal with unbelievable waiting time, paper shuffling and prevarication - not.

In one afternoon, I registered with the local council, registered to vote in local elections, received my social security number and national ID card, received my access card for the local garbage disposal and recycle facilities, was handed a card which apparently lets me borrow books from local and national libraries (for free), and received another card, that while it cost me 60 euros, gives me a year of free access to museums, art galleries and national muniment buildings across the whole nation.

This process was handled so disgustingly quickly that I had enough time, and therefore no excuses, to visit the bank, show them my local registration receipt and ID card, they opened an account for me, handed me an ATM card, I signed another bit of paper and three days later a credit card arrived with a credit limit equivalent to 3 months of my salary. I had asked if I needed to deposit an amount equivalent to the credit limit in an account for security - they seemed not to understand this idea.

You can imagine my thoughts and trepidation when Mrs GH turned up and I had to take her down the local authority to go through the whole rigmarole again.

She like me, was ushered through the whole process at a disgustingly high speed.

What was the question?

Glad to hear that some of the bureaucracy works well in the west....But not all...or at least in the US

Building permits and plans....Thailand....2 weeks and $500

US...........3 months or more and $20,000

Call the Utility service .....Thailand (at least for me ...guess because they know I give "tea money") ....One day if not same day

US....appointment hopefully within two weeks and its always a range ...be there from 8am to 12 noon or "in the afternoon"

[seajae]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

Pesonally, I find driving in Thailand OK....just have to be more alert and drive defensively.....And it may be that Thailand has one of the highest casuality rates in the world (don't know) ....but that's one of the reasons I don't drive a motorbike in Thailand!

If the west had 75% 2 wheelers, they'd have traffic stats just as bad. Probably worse- a lot worse. I did the math on that one thread a few years back, based on an extrapolation of actual death rate of scooter drivers in the USA. Of course, being a Thai Visa thread, I was informed that couldn't be true because EVERYONE knows Thai drivers stink...

The Thai fatality rate is high because of economics forcing Thais onto scooters and into the beds of pickup trucks with no seatbelts. Not just because their driving skills stink and not just because of backhanders.

I drove for over 30 years in Australia, all states and lots of different regions, one thing you notice is that virtually all road users are aware of the road rules and in most cases obey them as there are police patrolling the roads/cameras etc. Yes we still get the occasional idiot but the road rules are followed. Here the drivers rarely know the rules, in many cases have simply paid for their license, they dont know or simply dont obey the road rules and this is seen everywhere. They dont worry because they just pay a cop if they are caught, watch how many cars run red lights, dont give way, dont indicate, overtake on blind corners/double lines etc. and the reason is they know they will still get away with it if they are pulled over, a couple of hundred baht and it finished. This is why there are so many deaths here, in the west the police book you. if drunk you are arrested and car impounded, here you pay the cop & drive home. Anyone trying to claim otherwise is obviously not on the roads very much or simply ignorant, bribes/corruption are rife in all walks of life. I have personally seen govt officials being paid off to to allow legitimate business do their work because if they dont pay they are stalled and lose money, this is a fact of thai life and the sooner they can either stop it or slow it down the better

[surangw]

it's a symbiotic relationship

[AZBill]

Plenty of corruption in the West. In the U.S. we call it Hillary Clinton.

[beachproperty]

When it comes to rules.....Thailand is the Wild Wild West....there are rules but no one seems to follow them. Not something that is going to change overnight and this thread is not about changing anything....Thailand is what it is.....Is there corruption here? Again...seems to be the consensus ....there is.....and I agree, it's obvious, upfront unlike the west where it is hidden, denied, and ignored because "that could never happen here!" ...but corruption does exist in the West ...its just hidden behind the bureucracy.

My question was and is ....How is Corruption any different than Bureacracy?

Some, have said, which I agree with, that they are about the same just different name. If it is so drasticly different please feel free to point it out.

Only one has shown concrete examples where the bureaucracy works (and I believe it was in the UK but US probably very similar in those examples)

Others have gotten bogged down in the "attack the OP" mode and bickered about the small things.

And others have rightful pointed out that corruption leads to ignoring the rules, which in the case of driving, can cause injury and/or death. Again, can't argue with that....I believe the largest portion of deaths from road accidents in Thailand are because people persist in driving without a helmet and the large number of motorbike users (less protection if you do get in an accident)...

But then failed to point out Why is it then in the West (US, Europe or Australia) where we have rules of law which many people follow (but not all), we still then have road deaths, mass murderers, school shootings, police shoolting inocent victims, crime etc.....

So, it seems that Big Brother (Bureaucracy) watching over us is not the complete answer .....

[beachproperty]

Plenty of corruption in the West. In the U.S. we call it Hillary Clinton.

God Bless America.....

Where else could a nobody Governor of Arkansas (population 2.6 million ...less than a major city) become president of the USA..... AND then make a minimum of 160 million dollars in the 12 years after leaving the presidency

[Toknarok]

Of course there is corruption in the West. Most people are inherrantly greedy and whilst most resist the temptation to steal (corruption is a form of theft) many don't. Here in Thailand corruption is endemic, it's built into the system, everybody's at it, i's just the extent that varies. Corruption is a basic failing of human nature.

A small example. Very recently in Australia certain politiciand were caught with their pants down over travel expenses. Junkets for MP's and their families were claimed as 'official Government business'. This lead in one instance to the speaker of the House of Representatives resigning. Would this have happened in Thailand? never in a million years, Thai politicians think it is their 'right' to fiddle the system, they think it's part of the perks of the job.

The so called 'Leaders' in Thailand set this bad example so everyone climbs on the bandwagon.

[JAFO]

Whew!!!!.

The only difference between the 2 is that the US hides it better than Thailand. I am with Beachfront. I built a house with my wife in the North Thailand and had no roadblocks, not waiting, not BS from city officials, no BS from county, No BS from Tax assessors. Guy came out and said Ok and and we built. All of that for ~$100K.

In the US(California) that is simply impossible. It will cost you untold hours and money just to get permits and when done, guess what..a GIANT tax bill.

I have tons of examples.

In the end you make it what it is. I far prefer Thailand over the US. All those rules and laws we talk about in the US that are to protect its citizens do virtually none of it. Just gives Lawyers a way to make more money on contingency. Its gotten way to far out of hand

[beachproperty]

Of course there is corruption in the West. Most people are inherrantly greedy and whilst most resist the temptation to steal (corruption is a form of theft) many don't. Here in Thailand corruption is endemic, it's built into the system, everybody's at it, i's just the extent that varies. Corruption is a basic failing of human nature.

A small example. Very recently in Australia certain politiciand were caught with their pants down over travel expenses. Junkets for MP's and their families were claimed as 'official Government business'. This lead in one instance to the speaker of the House of Representatives resigning. Would this have happened in Thailand? never in a million years, Thai politicians think it is their 'right' to fiddle the system, they think it's part of the perks of the job.

The so called 'Leaders' in Thailand set this bad example so everyone climbs on the bandwagon.

While I agree with most of this post.....he talks about Thai politicians and their "rights" to feed at the trough. We aren't going to change that, and AGAIN this post is NOT about changing the system in Thailand.

It's about are there really differences between the two systems.

Funny thing is ....is in Thailand, I feel a LOT safer than I do in the West (US)....

[lovelomsak]

I donot know about all countries. But Canada because it is so big the provinces are where corruption is the most. In Alberta which is the land of the blue eyed Arabs because of how oil rich it is. The government is trying to get rid of government maintained services. The government sells out to big business. The electric services is now contracted out. 2 years ago I was in Alberta during a large snow storm. The power went out all over the province many places took days before they had electricity back and some areas were weeks.The contractor has excuses like crazy. Never happened when ran by government. The politicians get bought and everyone suffers. This happened in a very oil rich province that should be far above these problems. My friends told me that brown outs are commen now same as third world.. That is bureauracy at its best. The contractors on the corruption side now have more fees on private billing than the cost of the electric. My friend showed me his electric bill. The bill for one month was $135 of which $35 was for the actual electric used the rest was added fees. Give me Thailands corruption anytime

[JAFO]

Of course there is corruption in the West. Most people are inherrantly greedy and whilst most resist the temptation to steal (corruption is a form of theft) many don't. Here in Thailand corruption is endemic, it's built into the system, everybody's at it, i's just the extent that varies. Corruption is a basic failing of human nature.

A small example. Very recently in Australia certain politiciand were caught with their pants down over travel expenses. Junkets for MP's and their families were claimed as 'official Government business'. This lead in one instance to the speaker of the House of Representatives resigning. Would this have happened in Thailand? never in a million years, Thai politicians think it is their 'right' to fiddle the system, they think it's part of the perks of the job.

The so called 'Leaders' in Thailand set this bad example so everyone climbs on the bandwagon.

While I agree with most of this post.....he talks about Thai politicians and their "rights" to feed at the trough. We aren't going to change that, and AGAIN this post is NOT about changing the system in Thailand.

It's about are there really differences between the two systems.

Funny thing is ....is in Thailand, I feel a LOT safer than I do in the West (US)....

Funny Beach Property I feel safe to the same level in both places. So what did we pay for in the US?

[magnacarta]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Not if you come from a civilised western country,in my western country the cost is all in the local taxes.Plus also having experience working with such companies,if a column is either damaged or has to be replaced they are done at the same time due to regulations.The penalties are very severe if the contractor fails to adhere to his contract obligations.but maybe you come from a less developed western country.

[beachproperty]

Of course there is corruption in the West. Most people are inherrantly greedy and whilst most resist the temptation to steal (corruption is a form of theft) many don't. Here in Thailand corruption is endemic, it's built into the system, everybody's at it, i's just the extent that varies. Corruption is a basic failing of human nature.

A small example. Very recently in Australia certain politiciand were caught with their pants down over travel expenses. Junkets for MP's and their families were claimed as 'official Government business'. This lead in one instance to the speaker of the House of Representatives resigning. Would this have happened in Thailand? never in a million years, Thai politicians think it is their 'right' to fiddle the system, they think it's part of the perks of the job.

The so called 'Leaders' in Thailand set this bad example so everyone climbs on the bandwagon.

While I agree with most of this post.....he talks about Thai politicians and their "rights" to feed at the trough. We aren't going to change that, and AGAIN this post is NOT about changing the system in Thailand.

It's about are there really differences between the two systems.

Funny thing is ....is in Thailand, I feel a LOT safer than I do in the West (US)....

Funny Beach Property I feel safe to the same level in both places. So what did we pay for in the US?

LOL....US is now a socialist country with huge government payments for welfare, social security, prison systems, medicare etc, and a bloated inefficient government bureaucracy with tons of waste.......that is what we apparently paid for in the US.

[beachproperty]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Not if you come from a civilised western country,in my western country the cost is all in the local taxes.Plus also having experience working with such companies,if a column is either damaged or has to be replaced they are done at the same time due to regulations.The penalties are very severe if the contractor fails to adhere to his contract obligations.but maybe you come from a less developed western country.

Obviously, I do come from a less developed western country ....The United States.....Where having built homes and developed property I found dealing with the government burdensome at best and Utilities even worse!.........vs Thailand where it was a breeze!

If the West is so civilised why is it always at war ..? vs. Thailand ?