Corruption vs bureaucracy

[huawei]

At the end of the day...the poor are screwed here royally and those that favour " tips" are those that have some money and it facilitates their lives and a selfish view point, to compare Thailand with the west ( Europe/oz/ us) is not a valid argument, Corruption is systemic in Thailand..it happens in the west but there are checks and balances, rule of law etc..

I don't think you would be supporting this argument if you got into a disagreement with someone more influential and richer than you who then " pays" to win at your expense..

War doesn't make a country uncivilised if it's to protect others , infact the opposite.

Thailand, red yellow shirts, shootings near my condo in Bangkok 2010 ( shocking to me) , burning of fly overs ( traffic chaos for months) as the Reds left..

Callous treatment of the poor at times in this countries is not civilised.

We would all agree that bureaucracy has become over burdensome, but corruption is more insidious and pervasive and affects all layers of life.

[huawei]

I adjust as much as you do, but i realize the dangers and why corruption is wrong unlike you is see the dangers and condemn corruption and would not even compare it with bureaucracy as its two different things.

What you are doing is acting like its a good thing and saying its so much better as in the west where i have to wait.

In my version of the west I would not have had to paid for the maintenance of power-lines. Because that is what you did you paid for them to do their job something they should have done free and your proud of it

Corruption is all nice as long as it works in your favor.. the moment your in conflict with someone more powerful and even if your in your right your in trouble here. In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win.

That is the difference.

Hate to say it ....I agree with you except when you say.

"In the west you can turn to the law and if your in the right you will win."

Guess you never heard of the OJ Simpson case ....

At least you can turn to the law with some hope, regardless of stature..take that away and you would be surprised how vulnerable you would feel and realise how much you have taken for granted the law (however imperfect) in your own country as a basic human right without even thinking about it.

[farang000999]

Thailand's corruption has certainly worked out well for pedophiles who can pay the right people to get away with horrendous crimes.

[farang000999]

Plenty of corruption in the West. In the U.S. we call it Hillary Clinton.

God Bless America.....

Where else could a nobody Governor of Arkansas (population 2.6 million ...less than a major city) become president of the USA..... AND then make a minimum of 160 million dollars in the 12 years after leaving the presidency

What does that have to do with corruption? The income was made from public speaking appearances. They donated a large portion of that income to charity and paid almost 46% taxes.

[farang000999]

Of course there is corruption in the West. Most people are inherrantly greedy and whilst most resist the temptation to steal (corruption is a form of theft) many don't. Here in Thailand corruption is endemic, it's built into the system, everybody's at it, i's just the extent that varies. Corruption is a basic failing of human nature.

A small example. Very recently in Australia certain politiciand were caught with their pants down over travel expenses. Junkets for MP's and their families were claimed as 'official Government business'. This lead in one instance to the speaker of the House of Representatives resigning. Would this have happened in Thailand? never in a million years, Thai politicians think it is their 'right' to fiddle the system, they think it's part of the perks of the job.

The so called 'Leaders' in Thailand set this bad example so everyone climbs on the bandwagon.

While I agree with most of this post.....he talks about Thai politicians and their "rights" to feed at the trough. We aren't going to change that, and AGAIN this post is NOT about changing the system in Thailand.

It's about are there really differences between the two systems.

Funny thing is ....is in Thailand, I feel a LOT safer than I do in the West (US)....

Funny Beach Property I feel safe to the same level in both places. So what did we pay for in the US?

LOL....US is now a socialist country with huge government payments for welfare, social security, prison systems, medicare etc, and a bloated inefficient government bureaucracy with tons of waste.......that is what we apparently paid for in the US.

This is actually false.

Welfare, medicare, medicaid, food stamps are not wasteful at all. Infact, medicare and medicaid costs are significantly lower (more efficient) than private insurance. There is very little waste involved in these social programs.

The prison system is obviously a bloated racist disaster and the miltiary industrial complex is out of control but since you rally against liberalism, you probably like those things.

[farang000999]

Funny thing is ....is in Thailand, I feel a LOT safer than I do in the West (US)....

Just don't upset or cross paths with someone more connected than you, otherwise the joys of corruption but might turn upside down.

[magnacarta]

Another example of "corruption in Thailand" vs "Bureaucracy Of the West".....

Had two electric poles in front of my house right next to each other (new one and crumbling old one).....called electric company to see if they could move the lines from the old pole to the new one AND remove the old pole. ....He agreed but said it would take a few months. I said to him "see what you can do ...would really appreciate it"...and gave him 1000 Baht. Well 3 days later a boom and workers came out ...moved the lines and took out the old pole.

In the West ....would've cost thousands of dollars and at least 6 months wait.

Not if you come from a civilised western country,in my western country the cost is all in the local taxes.Plus also having experience working with such companies,if a column is either damaged or has to be replaced they are done at the same time due to regulations.The penalties are very severe if the contractor fails to adhere to his contract obligations.but maybe you come from a less developed western country.

Obviously, I do come from a less developed western country ....The United States.....Where having built homes and developed property I found dealing with the government burdensome at best and Utilities even worse!.........vs Thailand where it was a breeze!

If the West is so civilised why is it always at war ..? vs. Thailand ?

I guess you were just unlucky enough to be born in a lesser country than where I come from.Thailand is at war with itself,plus Thailand loves all countries and all countries love Thailand or so I have read according to all Thai governments present and passed.I won't bother going into details about had there not been certain wars what the world might be like today.That includes Thailand which helped your countrys little kerfuffle in this part of the world in the 60s/70s.

[kaorop]

For some reason the op seem to have forgotten Thailand has both, in spades.

Heres something to dwell on:

Corruption its all about me me me, bureaucracy is not.

As his point about the power polls perfectly presents

So to spell it out, you got it done quickly means others were pushed back, so it was good for who? "Me me me" he cries.

[farang000999]

Don't to mention the green card/citizenship process for Thais in the USA compared to farang in Thailand.

[beachproperty]

Don't to mention the green card/citizenship process for Thais in the USA compared to farang in Thailand.

And your point would be.......How hard it is to get a green card/ citizenship for a Thai. I went through that process and I can tell you its a nightmare compared to Thailand.

[huawei]

Don't to mention the green card/citizenship process for Thais in the USA compared to farang in Thailand.

And your point would be.......How hard it is to get a green card/ citizenship for a Thai. I went through that process and I can tell you its a nightmare compared to Thailand.

And so it should be, given the " rights" attached to it.

[impulse]

Glad to hear that some of the bureaucracy works well in the west....But not all...or at least in the US

Building permits and plans....Thailand....2 weeks and $500

US...........3 months or more and $20,000

Call the Utility service .....Thailand (at least for me ...guess because they know I give "tea money") ....One day if not same day

US....appointment hopefully within two weeks and its always a range ...be there from 8am to 12 noon or "in the afternoon"

I suspect you’re exaggerating a little, but I get where you’re coming from.

Though I still see some value in requiring the land be properly surveyed so they can make sure your structure will be on your property and not in a National Park, or straddling your lot line over into the neighbor’s property, or in the path of a river that floods every few years.

And I like the idea that they look at the blueprints to make sure the structure is appropriate for the intended (and allowable) use, that it won’t cave in on you, that the electrical system won’t burn down the neighborhood, that the plumbing won’t back up and fumigate you to death, and other little details that seem to get glossed over when a few baht change hands.

Judging from a lot of posts here from guys who find an all night karaoke bar moving in next door, I suspect a lot of them wish they (and their new neighbor) had to undergo the scrutiny that a western building permit entails.

And it all costs money and it all takes time. And engineers and surveyors don't work cheap because it costs so darn much live in the west and still put aside enough to retire to Thailand.

Or, you can do it like they do over here and hand them a few thousand baht and pray you don't end up electrocuted, or living between an all night karaoke bar and a pig slaughtering factory, and that the future government in 10 years doesn't come in and tear down your home for encroaching...

[TheFishman1]

Go for you having to only pay 200 bht my friend was here got stopped he paid 2000 bht he does not live here so hence the higher amount figure if he stops 20-30 people a day good business

[lostoday]

Yea.. but in the west you follow the road rules because you know you get fined.

Now here they don't follow the rules because you can bribe a cop.

Result one of the highest casualties on the roads in the world.

But hey.. its just an other name for it no difference at all.

Pesonally, I find driving in Thailand OK....just have to be more alert and drive defensively.....And it may be that Thailand has one of the highest casuality rates in the world (don't know) ....but that's one of the reasons I don't drive a motorbike in Thailand!

If the west had 75% 2 wheelers, they'd have traffic stats just as bad. Probably worse- a lot worse. I did the math on that one thread a few years back, based on an extrapolation of actual death rate of scooter drivers in the USA. Of course, being a Thai Visa thread, I was informed that couldn't be true because EVERYONE knows Thai drivers stink...

The Thai fatality rate is high because of economics forcing Thais onto scooters and into the beds of pickup trucks with no seatbelts. Not just because their driving skills stink and not just because of backhanders.

Do school buses in the USA have seat belts? Do you know how many years Lee Iacocca had the seat belt law postponed killing thousands of people? http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/nixon/

In 1971, when Lee Iacocca was president of Ford Motor Company, he was so strongly opposed to automobile airbags that he appealed personally to then-President Richard Nixon, and persuaded the president to kill a pending federal regulation mandating airbags for U.S. cars. (Of course, Iacocca didn’t know the conversation was being taped.) As the head of Chrysler Corp. in 1988, he announced that by 1990 all of Chrysler’s U.S.-made cars would be equipped with driver-side airbags. Chrysler officials were driven more by federal law than by their own engineering judgment or concern for drivers’ well being.

http://www.drivingthefuture.com/indstd.htm

The USA makes the Thai government look like saints.

[surangw]

the frustrating part ( no matter what country) is that everyone knows whats going on, but are powerless to do anything about it.

[Bangel72]

Bureaucracy and incompetence is generally free whereas efficiency and competence tends to cost a few cups of tea.

For some reason these things tend to go hand in hand and it "seems" to be very hard to drop corruption and maintain a level of efficiency, this goes from the individual doing a visa run to big business contracts.

So given the choice of incompetent inefficiency and corrupt but competent efficiency which would you tolerate more?

Feel free to go for the idealistic neither, good luck with that.

[lostoday]

Bureaucracy and incompetence is generally free whereas efficiency and competence tends to cost a few cups of tea.

For some reason these things tend to go hand in hand and it "seems" to be very hard to drop corruption and maintain a level of efficiency, this goes from the individual doing a visa run to big business contracts.

So given the choice of incompetent inefficiency and corrupt but competent efficiency which would you tolerate more?

Feel free to go for the idealistic neither, good luck with that.

Been to Singapore? How long has one family ruled that place now????

[benalibina]

Bureaucracy and incompetence is generally free whereas efficiency and competence tends to cost a few cups of tea.

For some reason these things tend to go hand in hand and it "seems" to be very hard to drop corruption and maintain a level of efficiency, this goes from the individual doing a visa run to big business contracts.

So given the choice of incompetent inefficiency and corrupt but competent efficiency which would you tolerate more?

Feel free to go for the idealistic neither, good luck with that.

Been to Singapore? How long has one family ruled that place now????

Tat naive, are you not ? Anyway, some things cannot be discussed on here.....but keep defending the indefensible....good on ya.

[lostoday]

Bureaucracy and incompetence is generally free whereas efficiency and competence tends to cost a few cups of tea.

For some reason these things tend to go hand in hand and it "seems" to be very hard to drop corruption and maintain a level of efficiency, this goes from the individual doing a visa run to big business contracts.

So given the choice of incompetent inefficiency and corrupt but competent efficiency which would you tolerate more?

Feel free to go for the idealistic neither, good luck with that.

Been to Singapore? How long has one family ruled that place now????

Tat naive, are you not ? Anyway, some things cannot be discussed on here.....but keep defending the indefensible....good on ya.

In Singapore corruption as it exists there works. In Thailand it does not. However having said that I chose to live in Thailand because I don't like Singapore. I didn't like it when everyone used to pee in the Elevators and I don't like it now. For me Thailand was better than Singapore 40 years ago and is still better. But I do understand why many would not agree.

[FritsSikkink]

Potato, potato.

YES...I agree....same thing different name

BUT at least in Thailand you can pay on the spot ...done ..over with...Whereas in the west must go to the government office and Pay ...and its usually an arm and a leg

The west is corrupt too.

[beachproperty]

Honorable Mention: The United States

• Corruption score: 74
• Power structure: Democratic Republic

President Barack Obama works on a draft of his State of the Union address in the Oval Office January 27, 2014 at the White House – Source: Alex Wong/Getty Images

There has to be an honorable mention for the United States, which many people figure has to be the most corrupt nation on Earth. The fact is, the U.S. does have a great deal of corruption in many forms, like lobbying, bribery, gerrymandering, and bought elections. But according to the corruption index, the U.S. pales in comparison to countries in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East.

The economic system of the U.S. — although often portrayed as ‘free-market’ — does not quite live up to that description, in many cases. A quick look at the telecom or energy industry shows that many monopolistic forces are at play, and big money oftentimes can get laws rewritten to preserve power and influence. Pressure from big business and labor groups is a major factor in why America is the only major world power without a nationalized healthcare system, and why there has been enormous growth in inequality, particularly as of late.

There are definitely many issues the United States needs to work out — from the financial system to elections — but with the status quo firmly set in place, there isn’t much indication that citizens should expect big-time change in the near-term.

Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/7-most-corrupt-countries.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3iVfU7RwQ

[lostoday]

Honorable Mention: The United States

• Corruption score: 74
• Power structure: Democratic Republic

President Barack Obama works on a draft of his State of the Union address in the Oval Office January 27, 2014 at the White House – Source: Alex Wong/Getty Images

There has to be an honorable mention for the United States, which many people figure has to be the most corrupt nation on Earth. The fact is, the U.S. does have a great deal of corruption in many forms, like lobbying, bribery, gerrymandering, and bought elections. But according to the corruption index, the U.S. pales in comparison to countries in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East.

The economic system of the U.S. — although often portrayed as ‘free-market’ — does not quite live up to that description, in many cases. A quick look at the telecom or energy industry shows that many monopolistic forces are at play, and big money oftentimes can get laws rewritten to preserve power and influence. Pressure from big business and labor groups is a major factor in why America is the only major world power without a nationalized healthcare system, and why there has been enormous growth in inequality, particularly as of late.

There are definitely many issues the United States needs to work out — from the financial system to elections — but with the status quo firmly set in place, there isn’t much indication that citizens should expect big-time change in the near-term.

Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/7-most-corrupt-countries.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3iVfU7RwQ

Interesting but nothing to do with the topic and it's your topic which is, "Corruption vs bureaucracy" not how corrupt America is.

[beachproperty]

Honorable Mention: The United States

• Corruption score: 74
• Power structure: Democratic Republic

President Barack Obama works on a draft of his State of the Union address in the Oval Office January 27, 2014 at the White House – Source: Alex Wong/Getty Images

There has to be an honorable mention for the United States, which many people figure has to be the most corrupt nation on Earth. The fact is, the U.S. does have a great deal of corruption in many forms, like lobbying, bribery, gerrymandering, and bought elections. But according to the corruption index, the U.S. pales in comparison to countries in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East.

The economic system of the U.S. — although often portrayed as ‘free-market’ — does not quite live up to that description, in many cases. A quick look at the telecom or energy industry shows that many monopolistic forces are at play, and big money oftentimes can get laws rewritten to preserve power and influence. Pressure from big business and labor groups is a major factor in why America is the only major world power without a nationalized healthcare system, and why there has been enormous growth in inequality, particularly as of late.

There are definitely many issues the United States needs to work out — from the financial system to elections — but with the status quo firmly set in place, there isn’t much indication that citizens should expect big-time change in the near-term.

Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/7-most-corrupt-countries.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3iVfU7RwQ

Interesting but nothing to do with the topic and it's your topic which is, "Corruption vs bureaucracy" not how corrupt America is.

Actually I believe it does have something to do with the post. ....which basicly compared corruption and bureaucracy as one and same....this just confirms it.

Obviously there is a bureaucracy in Thailand (in addition to outright corruption).....But in the US much of the corruption is hidden under the pretense of "Bureaucracy" or other names....

Sooo ....Corruption ...Bureaucracy....Same-Same

[lostoday]

Honorable Mention: The United States

• Corruption score: 74
• Power structure: Democratic Republic

President Barack Obama works on a draft of his State of the Union address in the Oval Office January 27, 2014 at the White House – Source: Alex Wong/Getty Images

There has to be an honorable mention for the United States, which many people figure has to be the most corrupt nation on Earth. The fact is, the U.S. does have a great deal of corruption in many forms, like lobbying, bribery, gerrymandering, and bought elections. But according to the corruption index, the U.S. pales in comparison to countries in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East.

The economic system of the U.S. — although often portrayed as ‘free-market’ — does not quite live up to that description, in many cases. A quick look at the telecom or energy industry shows that many monopolistic forces are at play, and big money oftentimes can get laws rewritten to preserve power and influence. Pressure from big business and labor groups is a major factor in why America is the only major world power without a nationalized healthcare system, and why there has been enormous growth in inequality, particularly as of late.

There are definitely many issues the United States needs to work out — from the financial system to elections — but with the status quo firmly set in place, there isn’t much indication that citizens should expect big-time change in the near-term.

Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/7-most-corrupt-countries.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3iVfU7RwQ

Interesting but nothing to do with the topic and it's your topic which is, "Corruption vs bureaucracy" not how corrupt America is.

Actually I believe it does have something to do with the post. ....which basicly compared corruption and bureaucracy as one and same....this just confirms it.

Obviously there is a bureaucracy in Thailand (in addition to outright corruption).....But in the US much of the corruption is hidden under the pretense of "Bureaucracy" or other names....

Sooo ....Corruption ...Bureaucracy....Same-Same

Excess bureaucracy in Thailand is minor if a problem at all. For example try getting treated at an American hospital as opposed to a Thai hospital or a speeding ticket. Now corruption seems acute here and at least in USA lip service is paid to not looking corrupt.

[fish fingers]

In Thailand its not so much corruption but something thats part of society.

What Prayuth doesn't seem to understand is that his strive for modernisation is stripping Thailand of its identity, leading to dreadful bureaucracy AND continued corruption

[huawei]

Potato, potato.

YES...I agree....same thing different name

BUT at least in Thailand you can pay on the spot ...done ..over with...Whereas in the west must go to the government office and Pay ...and its usually an arm and a leg

The west is corrupt too.

So. 2 wrongs don't make a right, plus there is no comparison..

[huawei]

In Thailand its not so much corruption but something thats part of society.

What Prayuth doesn't seem to understand is that his strive for modernisation is stripping Thailand of its identity, leading to dreadful bureaucracy AND continued corruption

Prayuth who is Thai knows less about Thailand than a farang who probably just retired here..makes a lot of sense.

Corruption should be eradicated as soon as possible..it's not a virtue..and it's become out of control.

[lostoday]

In Thailand its not so much corruption but something thats part of society.

What Prayuth doesn't seem to understand is that his strive for modernisation is stripping Thailand of its identity, leading to dreadful bureaucracy AND continued corruption

The good old days was slavery and not that long ago. I assume you don't mean going back more than a few years. If so do you really think Thailand is less corrupt than it was 40 or 70 years ago?

[impulse]

In Thailand its not so much corruption but something thats part of society.

What Prayuth doesn't seem to understand is that his strive for modernisation is stripping Thailand of its identity, leading to dreadful bureaucracy AND continued corruption

You eat an elephant one bite at a time...

He probably knows better than I do, which parts need to be eaten first.

[Gumballl]

Ask the people who died in Satika (66 people died there because of corruption) if corruption is good.. ask the people in the Ko Tao case if corruption is good. You fail to see the larger picture. It goes way beyond bribing a cop. You only see a few advantages but you fail to see the cost for the nation.

Just imagine if someone started to put a garbage dump next to your beach property and had bribed everyone so you could not object.

Because that is what corruption does it makes the person with the highest friends most money far more powerful as the normal people. It creates a situation where you cannot depend on the law.

These are not my experiences.. these are facts.

Guess you never heard of "eminent domain".....its a western term (and it may well exist in Thailand) but its the power of a state or a national government to take private property for public use and (in America, at least, can be taken by the government for use by private enitities).....so nothing is guaranteed in the West...even justice. Sorry to disappoint you....

Never said corruption was good ....just saying here in Thailand its called corruption ....in the West it's called Bureaucracy (or government)

You are indeed misguided. You probably had a bad experience in the "West", and now you can find nothing better to do than criticize it. Very sad indeed.

When fees or fines are collected in the West, it goes into the general fund for the gov't agency and/or gov't in general. It does not go into the pocket of a particular person.

I look forward to the day that the cop in Thailand shakes you down for 10,000 Baht... simply because he says you have "pills" in the back of the car. Knowing you from your posts, you will probably refuse to pay, and instead take pleasure in getting your corn-hole filled while spending time in jail for a week or two while your competent (and hopefully not corrupt) lawyer drinks whiskey with the cops.