Thailand To Seize Thaksin's Assets

[Martin]

"....the inevitablility of the extension of the rat hole urbanization to 80+% of the population."

Actually, it is the opposite that is inevitable. Urbanisation is becoming increasingly unviable, and people will not stay in urbania and go hungry when they can 'go rural' and get something in their bellies.

The 'post-modern' world will be a transition to a second agricultural age.

It won't happen all at once. Bulk energy supplies are only going to decline in availability at 2 to 3% per year, by the looks of things; though some of the energy (from oil shale and tar sands, for instance) will be expensive to get, which will have the knock-on effect of reduced living standards somewhere).

Thailand is so lucky that it has big land, small population and a propitious climate.

And it is taking some steps in the right direction. For instance, I was down at Khon Kaen University yesterday and both of the Profs who are my research supervisors had to apologise that they couldn't attend our sons' ordination ceremonies next weekend. Their weekends are now taken up by conducting parts of an 'outreach' Master's Degree Program. One was going to be down in Ubon and the other the down in Surat Thani.

It is an MA in Public Administration for district officials.

I doubt if their lectures are wonderfully inspiring (because their supervision sessions certainly are not), but just drawing in the participants from their Amphoe offices and getting them talking with each other will have benefits. And the academics will learn something, no doubt.

[hammered]

I read with interest the comments by some posters talking about how maybe the rural youth will develop into satisfied part time farmers with another job.

Having talked to quite a number of middle aged and elderly farmers in the North of Thailand (not the Isaan), I find that they all seem agreed that they do not want their kids of grand kids to be farmers. that kind of work even now is too hard, with too little return they say. With their parents and grand parents pushing them not to be farmers from an early age, and with modern communications making other lifestyles appear more attactive, why would these young people decide to be farmers? We should also remember that farmer parents are using all their resources to get their kids a better education to open up more opportunities in the towns.

Most of the kids want away. Their realtives want them away, but we are talking about how they can develop as part time farmers. There seems a disconnect here to me.

I sometimes think from western perspective that farming is appealing. However, I do not come from or live in poverty even though I am not wealthy. Maybe I am rich enough to consider an alternative lifestyle, or maybe I just over sentimentalise what is actually a very hard lifestyle with little reward, which getting back is what I am told by those living in the poor rural communities and doing the graft, and being part time farmers by reason of having to take extra jobs during nongrowing seasons just to make ends meet, or to get the next tuition fee so their kids do not have to do what they do. This is a very complicated issue.

[Plus]

I think this:

"they do not want their kids of grand kids to be farmers...With their parents and grand parents pushing them not to be farmers from an early age, and with modern communications making other lifestyles appear more attactive, why would these young people decide to be farmers? We should also remember that farmer parents are using all their resources to get their kids a better education to open up more opportunities in the towns.

Most of the kids want away. Their realtives want them away, but we are talking about how they can develop as part time farmers."

Is closer to reality than this:

"It would happen because people try different approaches to developing rural areas economically and are willing to continue in these efforts even in the face of some failures and disappointments!!!"

I don't know how Malaysians manage to live in the country and not work in agriculture. Maybe their little towns don't qualify as urban areas. Puzzles me.

Modern farmers productivity is so high, there's nothing to do in the villages. Even if they manage to decrease their productivity by adopting simpler (and cleaner) technologies, it's still too high. If one farmer feeds twenty people, than these twenty people would do something else. Good if they can find jobs in the country, but how?

Only if people can stay always connected and work from home, something that is not going to happen in Thailand anytime soon.

[Martin]

"If one farmer feeds twenty people, than these twenty people would do something else."

It is nineteen people who would do something else, since farmers do have to eat, too.

But never mind that small point. The big point is that those times are passing.

They only happened because the one 'farmer' was using the land as a sponge to absorb inorganic fertiliser and feed it to plants. And using big machinery and, often, irrigation that both needed exosomatic energy inputs.

Those methods of farming are starting to get more expensive (roughly proportionately to the price of oil).

Take away inorganic fertiliser and suddenly a different farming plan is needed. The most profitable is then mixed farming. Animal dung produces what fertilizer is available and crop rotation keeps the land fertile. But the output per farming family (with all 'mucking in') isn't going to leave more surplus after they have eaten than will feed three or four more people.

So the present urban-rural proportions cannot be sustained. Whether governments are proactive (and preferably preactive) and help the change through educational re-training programs and land re-allocation, or whether they leave it to the brutalities of 'market forces', is up to them. Some will do the one, and some the other.

Not that the Thaksins will feel the pain. When all is settled they will still be seriously rich.

But a lot of the middle-class urbanites are going to become relatively poor.

There are many middle-class in rural areas who stand to become relatively richer, though. They have their middle-class jobs (for instance, teaching), but also have the family land (often, at present, rented out cheaply). The purchasing power of their salaries may drop a bit, but the rise in the purchasing power of their rents will more than compensate.

The process need not be sudden, though. There is danger of recession breeding depression, agreed. But if calm sanity prevails, we can move to a sensible, though differently-ordered, world.

[Plus]

I think I told you I don't believe in your "inevitable crash" prediction. Technology is a wonderfully unpredictable thing. Hyrdogen powered cars will be ready for production in about three years, for example. Honda already puts them in their commercials.

Twenty years ago no one knew that there will be a thing called Internet that would completely revolutionize the way people interact and conduct their lives. Perhaps people will not need to travel to work anymore - thus huge investments in infrastructure will be unnecessary, businesses won't need huge office buildings, cars will disappear, and so on.

Or if people shift their diet from consuming meat there will be enourmous amounts of farm land available - that is for "earth cannot feed so many people" concern.

[chownah]

Hammered,

My experience has shown me that Thai parents want their children to make alot of money.....they can't do that now in the village so of course the parents want the children to go to where the money can be made....especially if a large investment has been made in the kid's education.

My experience has shown me that Thai children want to comply with their parents wishes and so after a large investment has been made in their education they will of course want to go where good money can be made and that is currently not in the village.

My experience has shown me that many farmers like being farmers and the independence it gives them...it is, however, very hard work and most farmers don't want to farm by hand 12 months of the year...it is too much work for too little reward.....but they still want to do it one season and grow one crop of rice even if they have jobs which pay them more than the daily wages they make when farming....they farm rice not because it is the biggest return for the effort but because of their love of independence and the culture of grfowing rice.....Thai culture is to a very great extent a rice culture. I'm pretty sure you are not a farmer because if you were a farmer you would understand this and I wouldn't have to explain it.

I have a niece who just graduated from university. She's working in Bangkok....she would rather be in Chiangrai....maybe not in the same village with her family but close enough for frequent visits...but...there are not jobs here for her......so she live in Bangkok....her parents would like her to live closer too...but they feel she has done the right thing by moving to Bangkok to make money. Two of my neighbors have children who have graduated from uni and are not teachers....they both work in villages within a two hour drive of home and spend most weekends at home with their parents.....they are in no hurry to "get away" any further than they are already....they consider themselves fortunate to be able to make reasonably good money and stay close to family.

My experience shows me that alot of Thai rural folk would love to have the next generation stay close to home....I'm surprised that you find rural folk near you do not have this sentiment.....my experience is that for Thai people the family comes first and being close is very important...it is hard for me to imagine a Thai having a baby and not letting grandma and grandpa do the daycare but I know that this happens alot in Bangkok and is one the reasons I'm hoping that people decide to invest some effort and resource to make it possible for Thai rural people to keep their families together and thier connection to the land.....probably the two main things that have formed Thai culture into what it is today...............but................hey................let's just make lots of jobs in Bangkok and don't worry, Thai culture will change...or maybe just disappear!!!!

Chownah

[hammered]

Hammered,

My experience has shown me that Thai parents want their children to make alot of money.....they can't do that now in the village so of course the parents want the children to go to where the money can be made....especially if a large investment has been made in the kid's education.

My experience has shown me that Thai children want to comply with their parents wishes and so after a large investment has been made in their education they will of course want to go where good money can be made and that is currently not in the village.

My experience has shown me that many farmers like being farmers and the independence it gives them...it is, however, very hard work and most farmers don't want to farm by hand 12 months of the year...it is too much work for too little reward.....but they still want to do it one season and grow one crop of rice even if they have jobs which pay them more than the daily wages they make when farming....they farm rice not because it is the biggest return for the effort but because of their love of independence and the culture of grfowing rice.....Thai culture is to a very great extent a rice culture. I'm pretty sure you are not a farmer because if you were a farmer you would understand this and I wouldn't have to explain it.

I have a niece who just graduated from university. She's working in Bangkok....she would rather be in Chiangrai....maybe not in the same village with her family but close enough for frequent visits...but...there are not jobs here for her......so she live in Bangkok....her parents would like her to live closer too...but they feel she has done the right thing by moving to Bangkok to make money. Two of my neighbors have children who have graduated from uni and are not teachers....they both work in villages within a two hour drive of home and spend most weekends at home with their parents.....they are in no hurry to "get away" any further than they are already....they consider themselves fortunate to be able to make reasonably good money and stay close to family.

My experience shows me that alot of Thai rural folk would love to have the next generation stay close to home....I'm surprised that you find rural folk near you do not have this sentiment.....my experience is that for Thai people the family comes first and being close is very important...it is hard for me to imagine a Thai having a baby and not letting grandma and grandpa do the daycare but I know that this happens alot in Bangkok and is one the reasons I'm hoping that people decide to invest some effort and resource to make it possible for Thai rural people to keep their families together and thier connection to the land.....probably the two main things that have formed Thai culture into what it is today...............but................hey................let's just make lots of jobs in Bangkok and don't worry, Thai culture will change...or maybe just disappear!!!!

Chownah

A few points:

We are not talking just of jobs in Bangkok. Many jobs are being created in Ayuthaya, Lampang, most of the Eastern Seaboard provinces and no doubt other areas that I am not aware of offhand.

Maybe I used the words "wanted away" poorly. It is more the kids and their family want them to have a better and more rewarding life, and the farmers see farming as a hard existance with little reward and a lot of worry. Of course if there are jobs that could provide this close to the family home, that would be great and for a lucky few there well may be. However, for most it means relocating to other provinces and the families are not unhappy to see this if their kids are seen to be doing better.

I am not disputing the culture of rice in Thailand. However, that is changing. A few generations ago farmers and their families were proud to be producers of rice. Now it is farmers theirselves that encourage a different path for their kids. I wouldnt doubt that the current farmers are proud people, but so many of them are not young. Their kids while raised to respect the farmer are encouraged not to be one. This may seem a subtle change but it is a very real one. With so many working and living away from home somewhere down the line we are going to see marriages between people from different provinces and regions. These couples could easily find they have more in common with where they now live and work than with where they came from and thereby cement the drift to the urban area. Even now I know plenty of 30+ Thai people living in this situation. Some of these have even moved their parents away from the rural areas to live with them and in some cases sold the rural land. There are a lot of changes going on in this country and I dont think that Thai culture will disappear, but what Thai culture is, is being changed by the people as we speak. I personally worry more when I see villages with kids, middle aged and elderly adults. As the years progress will enough of the young return to keep the farms working? I would hope that as technology improves, and maybe farms tend to be bigger there will still be enough after all didnt someone mention that in Malaysia only 14% of the popualtion was needed in the agricultural sector and technically Thailand has far more than this.

[hammered]

"If one farmer feeds twenty people, than these twenty people would do something else."

It is nineteen people who would do something else, since farmers do have to eat, too.

But never mind that small point. The big point is that those times are passing.

They only happened because the one 'farmer' was using the land as a sponge to absorb inorganic fertiliser and feed it to plants. And using big machinery and, often, irrigation that both needed exosomatic energy inputs.

Those methods of farming are starting to get more expensive (roughly proportionately to the price of oil).

Take away inorganic fertiliser and suddenly a different farming plan is needed. The most profitable is then mixed farming. Animal dung produces what fertilizer is available and crop rotation keeps the land fertile. But the output per farming family (with all 'mucking in') isn't going to leave more surplus after they have eaten than will feed three or four more people.

So the present urban-rural proportions cannot be sustained. Whether governments are proactive (and preferably preactive) and help the change through educational re-training programs and land re-allocation, or whether they leave it to the brutalities of 'market forces', is up to them. Some will do the one, and some the other.

Not that the Thaksins will feel the pain. When all is settled they will still be seriously rich.

But a lot of the middle-class urbanites are going to become relatively poor.

There are many middle-class in rural areas who stand to become relatively richer, though. They have their middle-class jobs (for instance, teaching), but also have the family land (often, at present, rented out cheaply). The purchasing power of their salaries may drop a bit, but the rise in the purchasing power of their rents will more than compensate.

The process need not be sudden, though. There is danger of recession breeding depression, agreed. But if calm sanity prevails, we can move to a sensible, though differently-ordered, world.

As a point of interest how does the farming of high yield genetically modified crops fit in with this? This is something I wonder about but have little knowledge of although I am personally a litle wary of GM foodstuffs.

I am also getting a litle confused about where I should be posting at the moment. The debate here on the Thaksin Asset thread is starting to be very similar to the other debate on the economy.

[ColPyat]

I am not disputing the culture of rice in Thailand. However, that is changing. A few generations ago farmers and their families were proud to be producers of rice.

Problem is that culture alone does not fill your stomach.

Growing rice for the average farmer is a lousy business that loses more money than it makes. One year crops destroyed by flood, the next by drought, and the year after a good harvest, but the moneylender already waiting so that the farmer has to sell wet rice for a lousy prize.

[ColPyat]

As a point of interest how does the farming of high yield genetically modified crops fit in with this? This is something I wonder about but have little knowledge of although I am personally a litle wary of GM foodstuffs.

I am also getting a litle confused about where I should be posting at the moment. The debate here on the Thaksin Asset thread is starting to be very similar to the other debate on the economy.

Apart from the not yet clear health issues, the EU will only import GM rice when so marked, and the average buyer will stay away from GM rice.

The farmer will have to buy seedlings from the industry, and suitable fertilizer as well. Not exactly a good idea if one is an average small scale farmer and does not want to get deeper into the debt trap than he is already. There is, as far as i know, no GM rice that survives flooding.

[hammered]

As a point of interest how does the farming of high yield genetically modified crops fit in with this? This is something I wonder about but have little knowledge of although I am personally a litle wary of GM foodstuffs.

I am also getting a litle confused about where I should be posting at the moment. The debate here on the Thaksin Asset thread is starting to be very similar to the other debate on the economy.

Apart from the not yet clear health issues, the EU will only import GM rice when so marked, and the average buyer will stay away from GM rice.

The farmer will have to buy seedlings from the industry, and suitable fertilizer as well. Not exactly a good idea if one is an average small scale farmer and does not want to get deeper into the debt trap than he is already. There is, as far as i know, no GM rice that survives flooding.

Which begs the question of will we see a move to larger scale farming in the future with large landowners of farmland using modern technology and employing unlanded laborers plus machinery?

I really think we should be moving a lot of these posts to the thread on the jobs and economy board. It is getting very confusing with all the duplication.

[Martin]

I empathise with 'hammered' about where to post!

A rice growing economy based on small yeomanry (which was what Isaan had in the past) needs each holding to have a good big granary so what is surplus to consumption in a good year can be held over as insurance against the following year being bad.

Only the surplus beyond that 'insurance quantity' of rice should be sold for cash to buy luxuries.

If you look closely in some of the Isaan villages near me, you can see many of those granaries quietly biding their time to return to full use.

I believe there is a Thai expression (equivalent to: "I'm all right, Jack") that says something like "I am so well situated now that I am not the slightest bit worried that the next harvest might be a bad one".

They can stuff their GM seed, as far as I am concerned. I can do without being dependant on Monsanto.We will continue to start threshing day by gently threshing enough sheaves by hand to give us the next year's seed. Then we shove the rest through the machine when it arrives.

(The very first thing, though, is to kill the ducks, so the women can get on with the plucking, drawing and cooking whilst the men work up an appetite threshing the seed rice and then the production rice.)

I try to post something relating to the topic, and was going to suggest that Thaksin's assets, when returned, should be used to develop the curriculum of Peasantry 101, but maybe this thread will have done that already, ahead of that far-distant day.

[Martin]

Post #335 started with:

"I think I told you I don't believe in your "inevitable crash" prediction. Technology is a wonderfully unpredictable thing. Hyrdogen powered cars will be ready for production in about three years, for example. Honda already puts them in their commercials."

I don't know who it refers to, who has posted an "inevitable crash" prediction.

I don't foresee any crash. What I foresee is gradual GDP decline, perhaps well-managed and those affected being eased into other activities or perhaps happening quite chaotically, or most-likely some of each.

Far be it from me to speak against hoping for the best. It should be encouraged, along with encouraging preparing for the worst.

(But, a business plan that had built in to it an injection of further working capital, at some point in the future, from a lottery win would not commend itself to a bank manager.)

I have no faith in hydrogen. To start with, it is only secondary exosomatic energy. It takes a lot of primary energy to separate the oxygen and hydrogen in the water molecules to get the hydrogen.

And the economic killer for vehicular use would be the cost of tankage that would be satisfactorily safe. With vehicles, "inevitable crash" has to be believed in. Carrying around petroleum liquids is bad enough, since they can burn when they get air to them. But hydrogen can explode when it gets air to it.

Honda may have demonstrated a hydrogen-fuelled commercial vehicle on its own land, but I would be amazed if it had got approval for highway use from any country.

And fusion, which was a great hope for restoring availability of cheap bulk energy, is looking to be a hopeless prospect.

Yes. The second era after the industrialism peak will be very different from the one before, because of communications and, so, informed people.

And I agree that 'peak meat' will soon follow 'peak oil' and 'peak gold', which appear to have recently occurred. Which will be no bad thing. Meat rations in World War II were very small, yet we who were kids in the UK during WWII turned into the fittest bunch that the country has ever had.

[chownah]

Since we're all freely ignoring the topic I'll just say that I'm not worried about an energy shortage. At the current price for oil (over $60 per barrel) there are deposits of oil shale and oil sands in the US and Canada which become commercially viable....this will increase the economically recoverable oil supply in the world by a huge percent....I'm thinking more than double....anyone got the figures? The technology already exists to extract this oil and it is being scaled up and improved upon constantly....it might not be too environmentally friendly(that remains to be seen) but that has never stopped these energy companies before.....if oil stays at current price levels it is just a matter of time before extraction of this oil will produce all the oil we need......and then there is the magnetic confinement nuclear fusion research reactor being built in France which is a likely candidate to produce the knowledge of how to build a commercial reactor of this type within the next 30 years or so.....of course its not a sure thing but so far there is no show stopping problems forseen with this.

Chownah

Edited October 12, 2006 by chownah

[Douggie Style]

Is the peak oil theory valid?

A recent rebuttal, from the petroleum industry, stated that the peak oil theory was based only on current reserves (those being mined/developed) and not the total reserves.

They claimed total reserves are around 2-3 times the total of all petroleum ever produced to date, and there is still plenty to go around.

It seems strange that something so important is unsettled.

Any opinions?

(Chownahs post above noted)

Edited October 12, 2006 by Douggie Style

[Martin]

“Peak oil” may well have occurred some months ago, at 85m bpd (millions of barrels per day). Supplies available in recent months have only been 84m bpd, even though there was a market looking for more.

It won’t be clear when ‘peak oil’ occurred till well after, as there is so much /noise’ on the underlying curve. It is a bit like standing on a beach looking at successive waves. You think you have seen the high tide turn, but then one wave comes along and goes ‘highest yet’, which makes you doubt your judgment. But your judgment may have been right and that was just a ‘rogue’.

“Peak oil” theory was developed on the basis of reserves on which a profit could be made at about today’s price levels. The additional reserves mentioned by the oil companies (such as oil from tar sands and shale) will only slow the descent from the peak, and only at great expense that oil companies will only incur if the selling price goes much higher.

The best estimate of future supplies of bulk fossil-fuel energy is shown below.

Note the big contribution expected from coal.

What can’t be estimated is price---particularly as world currencies will re-align in response to oil’s geopolitical effects.

Interestingly, gold output seems to have peaked, too. There are huge reserves of gold, but only at much greater costs to ‘mine’ it.

Historically, oil and gold prices have tended to move together, with a ratio of one ounce to fifteen barrels. Either gold is cheap or oil is dear at the moment (or a bit of both).

I would expect that Thaksin has put a lot of the assets of which he still has control in oil and gold.

[stumonster]

Thailand is so lucky that it has big land, small population and a propitious climate.

and I would add that it is in a good geographical location in respect to china.

as china's middle class expands , I think we will see an increased demand for better foods not produced via the chemical farming method. More aquaculture producing fresh and clean fish and prawns , and grain fed beef , pork and chicken - which could be easily gotten to market in china.

I look back to australia where most of the good beef and seafood does not grace the shops in australia , it is exported , because people are prepared to pay the extra money for good food.

[Heng]

Have they seized his assets yet? Or are they too busy bothering/probing nice folks like Khunying Pornthip?

[Tony Clifton]

Have they seized his assets yet? Or are they too busy bothering/probing nice folks like Khunying Pornthip?

Like cooking a good beef stew, let simmer, wait a litttle longer.

[hammered]

“Peak oil” may well have occurred some months ago, at 85m bpd (millions of barrels per day). Supplies available in recent months have only been 84m bpd, even though there was a market looking for more.

It won’t be clear when ‘peak oil’ occurred till well after, as there is so much /noise’ on the underlying curve. It is a bit like standing on a beach looking at successive waves. You think you have seen the high tide turn, but then one wave comes along and goes ‘highest yet’, which makes you doubt your judgment. But your judgment may have been right and that was just a ‘rogue’.

“Peak oil” theory was developed on the basis of reserves on which a profit could be made at about today’s price levels. The additional reserves mentioned by the oil companies (such as oil from tar sands and shale) will only slow the descent from the peak, and only at great expense that oil companies will only incur if the selling price goes much higher.

The best estimate of future supplies of bulk fossil-fuel energy is shown below.

Note the big contribution expected from coal.

What can’t be estimated is price---particularly as world currencies will re-align in response to oil’s geopolitical effects.

Interestingly, gold output seems to have peaked, too. There are huge reserves of gold, but only at much greater costs to ‘mine’ it.

Historically, oil and gold prices have tended to move together, with a ratio of one ounce to fifteen barrels. Either gold is cheap or oil is dear at the moment (or a bit of both).

I would expect that Thaksin has put a lot of the assets of which he still has control in oil and gold.

Where does the bottleneck of refining of oil fit in. There is actually little point in producing more oil when the end product rate determining step is controlled by the worlds limited refining capacity. We will see if peak oil theory is correct in the future as things stand now it remains a theory with supporters and critics. There are arguements that with astable higher price more oil will actually be produced in the future than now. Howeevr, if the very problem caused by limited refining is not addressed this becomes a moot point. It is also likely that in the future more refinieries will be needed just to cope with the increasing amounts of sour oil that not all refineries can handle now.

We should also not forget two other importan points. First more oil will almost certainly be discovered: Siberia, Alaska, Antarctica and other areas will yield more and as abhorent as this sounds environmentalists will not stop this. The other factor is new technology.

[sriracha john]

We now return you to the topic at hand:

Deposed Thai PM 'smuggled out millions in 114 suitcases'

Investigators in Thailand believe the country's former prime minister, toppled in a bloodless coup last month, secretly shipped huge amounts of his £1billion family fortune in cash to Europe.

Billionaire businessman Thaksin Shinawatra, 57, whose rule ended amid allegations of corruption, has sought sanctuary in Britain following the military takeover in Bangkok on September 19.

According to reports in Thai newspapers, local officials suspect that Thaksin anticipated his own fall from power and had much of his vast wealth flown out of the country in advance.

Astonishingly, it is claimed that he stashed the money in 114 suitcases which were transported to Finland only days before the coup, as Thaksin began a tour of Europe and America.

Thai Airways officials who were suspicious about the luggage are said to have passed on their concerns to the new ruling military council.

Immigration laws ban Thais from taking more than £700 out of the country when they go overseas.

Public prosecutors in Thailand are investigating a number of corruption allegations against Thaksin and members of his government, although yesterday the new Prime Minister, Surayud Chulanont, said that the ousted premier was free to return.

But last night it emerged that Thaksin has approached British immigration lawyers with a view to staying permanently in the UK.

He is thought to have permission to remain here for three months only, unless he can claim asylum.

Thaksin's family is among the wealthiest in South East Asia, thanks to the company he built up dealing in mobile phones and cable television.

but much more so from the corruption kickbacks he's received over the past 5 years as PM...

He is now staying with his 20-year-old daughter, a student at the London School of Economics, at a £3million penthouse in South Kensington, Central London.

Security staff said that the family would not respond to enquiries.

- The Evening Standard

[dr_Pat_Pong]

We now return you to the topic at hand:

Deposed Thai PM 'smuggled out millions in 114 suitcases'

Investigators in Thailand believe the country's former prime minister, toppled in a bloodless coup last month, secretly shipped huge amounts of his £1billion family fortune in cash to Europe.

Billionaire businessman Thaksin Shinawatra, 57, whose rule ended amid allegations of corruption, has sought sanctuary in Britain following the military takeover in Bangkok on September 19.

According to reports in Thai newspapers, local officials suspect that Thaksin anticipated his own fall from power and had much of his vast wealth flown out of the country in advance.

Astonishingly, it is claimed that he stashed the money in 114 suitcases which were transported to Finland only days before the coup, as Thaksin began a tour of Europe and America.

Thai Airways officials who were suspicious about the luggage are said to have passed on their concerns to the new ruling military council.

Immigration laws ban Thais from taking more than £700 out of the country when they go overseas.

Public prosecutors in Thailand are investigating a number of corruption allegations against Thaksin and members of his government, although yesterday the new Prime Minister, Surayud Chulanont, said that the ousted premier was free to return.

But last night it emerged that Thaksin has approached British immigration lawyers with a view to staying permanently in the UK.

He is thought to have permission to remain here for three months only, unless he can claim asylum.

Thaksin's family is among the wealthiest in South East Asia, thanks to the company he built up dealing in mobile phones and cable television.

but much more so from the corruption kickbacks he's received over the past 5 years as PM...

He is now staying with his 20-year-old daughter, a student at the London School of Economics, at a £3million penthouse in South Kensington, Central London.

Security staff said that the family would not respond to enquiries.

- The Evening Standard

Make him apply from his home country or border hop every 30 days

[marshbags]

We now return you to the topic at hand:

Deposed Thai PM 'smuggled out millions in 114 suitcases'

Investigators in Thailand believe the country's former prime minister, toppled in a bloodless coup last month, secretly shipped huge amounts of his £1billion family fortune in cash to Europe.

Billionaire businessman Thaksin Shinawatra, 57, whose rule ended amid allegations of corruption, has sought sanctuary in Britain following the military takeover in Bangkok on September 19.

According to reports in Thai newspapers, local officials suspect that Thaksin anticipated his own fall from power and had much of his vast wealth flown out of the country in advance.

Astonishingly, it is claimed that he stashed the money in 114 suitcases which were transported to Finland only days before the coup, as Thaksin began a tour of Europe and America.

Thai Airways officials who were suspicious about the luggage are said to have passed on their concerns to the new ruling military council.

Immigration laws ban Thais from taking more than £700 out of the country when they go overseas.

Public prosecutors in Thailand are investigating a number of corruption allegations against Thaksin and members of his government, although yesterday the new Prime Minister, Surayud Chulanont, said that the ousted premier was free to return.

But last night it emerged that Thaksin has approached British immigration lawyers with a view to staying permanently in the UK.

He is thought to have permission to remain here for three months only, unless he can claim asylum.

Thaksin's family is among the wealthiest in South East Asia, thanks to the company he built up dealing in mobile phones and cable television.

but much more so from the corruption kickbacks he's received over the past 5 years as PM...

He is now staying with his 20-year-old daughter, a student at the London School of Economics, at a £3million penthouse in South Kensington, Central London.

Security staff said that the family would not respond to enquiries.

- The Evening Standard

When is someone in the going to catch on that Toxin is in effect on the run for many infamous acts, Extrajudicial Killings ect., along with many other unanswered observations raised by the Human Rights Watch and using London / U.K. as a refuge ?

To recap on this i post the following letter from the H.Rights News

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/10/28/thaila9576.htm

We write to urge your government to immediately launch an independent and impartial criminal investigation of Thai security forces implicated in the deaths of at least 85 people in Narathiwat province this week. Security forces shot and killed seven protesters and at least 78 protesters were suffocated or crushed to death as they were being transferred to detention facilities. Some 1,200 people are still held by military authorities, without access to legal representation and with questionable medical attention. This incident marks a major escalation of the violence in predominantly Muslim southern Thailand, where more than 400 people have already been killed since the beginning of the year.

Related Material

Thailand: Prosecute and Discipline Officials Responsible for Southern Violence

Press Release

Not Enough Graves: The War on Drugs, HIV/AIDS, and Violations of Human Rights

Report, July 7, 2004

Thailand: Probe Use of Lethal Force in Muslim South

Press Release, April 29, 2004

Thailand: Lawyer’s Disappearance Darkens Rights Climate

Press Release, March 18, 2004

Your government should act urgently to prosecute to the full extent of the law those responsible for these deaths (up to and including the highest levels of the chain of command) and to compensate appropriately the victims of human rights violations by Thai security forces.

Since your government assumed power, Thai security forces have increasingly used excessive force and operated with impunity, particularly in southern Thailand. There has been no accountability for over two thousand extrajudicial executions carried out by security forces in the “war on drugs” launched by your government; there has been no accountability for the unnecessary use of lethal force by security forces who killed some 110 militants armed only with machetes, most aged between 15 and 20, in Kruesi Mosque in southern Thailand on April 28; and there has been no accountability for the March 18 “disappearance” of Somchai Neelapajit, a prominent human rights lawyer representing two Thai Muslims facing terrorism charges, who is strongly suspected of having been abducted and killed by security forces. Each incident fostered the atmosphere of impunity in which security forces in Narithawit seemed to be operating this week.

Preliminary information received by Human Rights Watch indicates that Thai security forces used excessive force in breaking up the demonstration in front of Takbai police station on October 26. Contrary to your assertions immediately after the incident, witnesses and media accounts report that police and military forces fired live ammunition at protesters who did not pose a serious threat to the police or to others. Aside from the seven protesters killed by gunfire, we have received reports of several people seriously injured with bullet wounds. Other witnesses and protesters say they were beaten after they were taken into custody by security forces and that they were thrown face down into military trucks and piled four or five high. Early forensic reports suggest that some detainees died as a result of broken necks.

The United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials states that law enforcement officials, in carrying out their duty, shall as far as possible apply non-violent means before resorting to the use of force. Whenever the lawful use of force is unavoidable, law enforcement officials shall use restraint and act in proportion to the seriousness of the offense. The legitimate objective should be achieved with minimal damage and injury, and preservation of human life respected.

We welcome your quick appointment of a commission of inquiry to investigate this incident. For this inquiry to help stem the already rising cycle of violence in southern Thailand, it must be – and be perceived to be – a credible and legitimate exercise, and not, as you publicly suggested, simply an effort to yield “lessons for the future.” The results of this commission of inquiry must be given greater weight than the conclusions of the government-appointed commission that investigated the killings at the Kruesi Mosque in southern Thailand in April. That commission found that the level of force and type of weapons used by security forces were “disproportionate to the threat posed by the militants,” but to date there has been no public accountability for those events.

Mr. Prime Minister, Thailand had made remarkable gains toward improved respect for human rights over the past decade. But during your tenure, Thailand has witnessed a growing disregard for the rule of law and human rights. Your government’s inadequate responses to previous human rights abuses have created an environment in which security forces trample the rule of law and violate human rights without fear of accountability. The predictable rise of a climate of impunity, and the resulting increase in violence, helped set the stage for the tragic deaths in southern Thailand this week. In order to counter this trend, you must move immediately to provide full accountability and respect for human rights throughout Thailand.

We look forward to your urgent attention to this grave matter,

Brad Adams

Executive Director, Asia Division

Human Rights Watch

A seperate article on the war on drugs to recap on the " Extrajudicial Killings " please go to url :-

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/thailand0704/4.htm#_Toc76203868

What,s happened to all the effective, peaceful protest London / the U.K. are famous for

A certain General Augusto José Ramón Pinochet comes to mind as a prime example of what protests against dictators of their calibre can do to make their stay uncomfortable.

There are of course the Muslim organisations who are famous for their protests and have a wonderful oportunity to demonstrate against him without fear of it being illegal in the U.K. while their safety is also protected.

Isn,t he staying at the penthouse courtesy of the Harrods CEO Mohamed Al Fayed by the way ?

Not having to pay rent will cut his expenses down while he gets all his ill gotten gains sorted out.

I look forward to him getting the sort of reception he deserves while in the U.K. along with the Karma to compliment his mis use of power in Thailand.

Give him the reception he deserves Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

marshbags

[bulmercke]

We now return you to the topic at hand:

Deposed Thai PM 'smuggled out millions in 114 suitcases'

Investigators in Thailand believe the country's former prime minister, toppled in a bloodless coup last month, secretly shipped huge amounts of his £1billion family fortune in cash to Europe.

Billionaire businessman Thaksin Shinawatra, 57, whose rule ended amid allegations of corruption, has sought sanctuary in Britain following the military takeover in Bangkok on September 19.

According to reports in Thai newspapers, local officials suspect that Thaksin anticipated his own fall from power and had much of his vast wealth flown out of the country in advance.

Astonishingly, it is claimed that he stashed the money in 114 suitcases which were transported to Finland only days before the coup, as Thaksin began a tour of Europe and America.

Thai Airways officials who were suspicious about the luggage are said to have passed on their concerns to the new ruling military council.

Immigration laws ban Thais from taking more than £700 out of the country when they go overseas.

Public prosecutors in Thailand are investigating a number of corruption allegations against Thaksin and members of his government, although yesterday the new Prime Minister, Surayud Chulanont, said that the ousted premier was free to return.

But last night it emerged that Thaksin has approached British immigration lawyers with a view to staying permanently in the UK.

He is thought to have permission to remain here for three months only, unless he can claim asylum.

Thaksin's family is among the wealthiest in South East Asia, thanks to the company he built up dealing in mobile phones and cable television.

but much more so from the corruption kickbacks he's received over the past 5 years as PM...

He is now staying with his 20-year-old daughter, a student at the London School of Economics, at a £3million penthouse in South Kensington, Central London.

Security staff said that the family would not respond to enquiries.

- The Evening Standard

When is someone in the going to catch on that Toxin is in effect on the run for many infamous acts, Extrajudicial Killings ect., along with many other unanswered observations raised by the Human Rights Watch and using London / U.K. as a refuge ?

To recap on this i post the following letter from the H.Rights News

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/10/28/thaila9576.htm

We write to urge your government to immediately launch an independent and impartial criminal investigation of Thai security forces implicated in the deaths of at least 85 people in Narathiwat province this week. Security forces shot and killed seven protesters and at least 78 protesters were suffocated or crushed to death as they were being transferred to detention facilities. Some 1,200 people are still held by military authorities, without access to legal representation and with questionable medical attention. This incident marks a major escalation of the violence in predominantly Muslim southern Thailand, where more than 400 people have already been killed since the beginning of the year.

Related Material

Thailand: Prosecute and Discipline Officials Responsible for Southern Violence

Press Release

Not Enough Graves: The War on Drugs, HIV/AIDS, and Violations of Human Rights

Report, July 7, 2004

Thailand: Probe Use of Lethal Force in Muslim South

Press Release, April 29, 2004

Thailand: Lawyer’s Disappearance Darkens Rights Climate

Press Release, March 18, 2004

Your government should act urgently to prosecute to the full extent of the law those responsible for these deaths (up to and including the highest levels of the chain of command) and to compensate appropriately the victims of human rights violations by Thai security forces.

Since your government assumed power, Thai security forces have increasingly used excessive force and operated with impunity, particularly in southern Thailand. There has been no accountability for over two thousand extrajudicial executions carried out by security forces in the “war on drugs” launched by your government; there has been no accountability for the unnecessary use of lethal force by security forces who killed some 110 militants armed only with machetes, most aged between 15 and 20, in Kruesi Mosque in southern Thailand on April 28; and there has been no accountability for the March 18 “disappearance” of Somchai Neelapajit, a prominent human rights lawyer representing two Thai Muslims facing terrorism charges, who is strongly suspected of having been abducted and killed by security forces. Each incident fostered the atmosphere of impunity in which security forces in Narithawit seemed to be operating this week.

Preliminary information received by Human Rights Watch indicates that Thai security forces used excessive force in breaking up the demonstration in front of Takbai police station on October 26. Contrary to your assertions immediately after the incident, witnesses and media accounts report that police and military forces fired live ammunition at protesters who did not pose a serious threat to the police or to others. Aside from the seven protesters killed by gunfire, we have received reports of several people seriously injured with bullet wounds. Other witnesses and protesters say they were beaten after they were taken into custody by security forces and that they were thrown face down into military trucks and piled four or five high. Early forensic reports suggest that some detainees died as a result of broken necks.

The United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials states that law enforcement officials, in carrying out their duty, shall as far as possible apply non-violent means before resorting to the use of force. Whenever the lawful use of force is unavoidable, law enforcement officials shall use restraint and act in proportion to the seriousness of the offense. The legitimate objective should be achieved with minimal damage and injury, and preservation of human life respected.

We welcome your quick appointment of a commission of inquiry to investigate this incident. For this inquiry to help stem the already rising cycle of violence in southern Thailand, it must be – and be perceived to be – a credible and legitimate exercise, and not, as you publicly suggested, simply an effort to yield “lessons for the future.” The results of this commission of inquiry must be given greater weight than the conclusions of the government-appointed commission that investigated the killings at the Kruesi Mosque in southern Thailand in April. That commission found that the level of force and type of weapons used by security forces were “disproportionate to the threat posed by the militants,” but to date there has been no public accountability for those events.

Mr. Prime Minister, Thailand had made remarkable gains toward improved respect for human rights over the past decade. But during your tenure, Thailand has witnessed a growing disregard for the rule of law and human rights. Your government’s inadequate responses to previous human rights abuses have created an environment in which security forces trample the rule of law and violate human rights without fear of accountability. The predictable rise of a climate of impunity, and the resulting increase in violence, helped set the stage for the tragic deaths in southern Thailand this week. In order to counter this trend, you must move immediately to provide full accountability and respect for human rights throughout Thailand.

We look forward to your urgent attention to this grave matter,

Brad Adams

Executive Director, Asia Division

Human Rights Watch

A seperate article on the war on drugs to recap on the " Extrajudicial Killings " please go to url :-

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/thailand0704/4.htm#_Toc76203868

What,s happened to all the effective, peaceful protest London / the U.K. are famous for

A certain General Augusto José Ramón Pinochet comes to mind as a prime example of what protests against dictators of their calibre can do to make their stay uncomfortable.

There are of course the Muslim organisations who are famous for their protests and have a wonderful oportunity to demonstrate against him without fear of it being illegal in the U.K. while their safety is also protected.

Isn,t he staying at the penthouse courtesy of the Harrods CEO Mohamed Al Fayed by the way ?

Not having to pay rent will cut his expenses down while he gets all his ill gotten gains sorted out.

I look forward to him getting the sort of reception he deserves while in the U.K. along with the Karma to compliment his mis use of power in Thailand.

Give him the reception he deserves Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

marshbags

An excellent posting.

The press (both Thai and english language dailies) and the interim government will be onto this in the not too distant future.

Apart from his obviously corrupt practices - the human rights issues need urgently addressing.

A nasty, inhumane dictator.

As a footnote - there's now no question whatsoever that this interim government is hel_l-bent on putting a cap on the ongoing insurgency in the south.

This is a credit to them.

No Thaksin - no insurgency. Mahathir needs to be thanked for his sincere intervention.

Edited October 15, 2006 by bulmercke

[ColPyat]

The press (both Thai and english language dailies) and the interim government will be onto this in the not too distant future.

You are dreaming.

If they would allow an impartial investigation into the drugwar killings, they can lock themselves up together with Thaksin. This is not going to happen.

[ColPyat]

And really funny that now another English rag for the troglodytes is brought as a proof that Thaksin carried millions out of the country in suitcases.

Investigators in Thailand believe the country's former prime minister, toppled in a bloodless coup last month, secretly shipped huge amounts of his £1billion family fortune in cash to Europe.

Astonishingly, it is claimed that he stashed the money in 114 suitcases which were transported to Finland only days before the coup, as Thaksin began a tour of Europe and America

Investigators, who?

It is claimed...?

LOL!

...The Evening Standard...

[sriracha john]

AEC says Thaksin's return will not affect its works

Asset Examination Committee spokesman Sak Korsawngruang said Sunday that ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's return would not affect its investigation.

Sak said that AEC has full authority to call for evidence and witnesses from concerned parties and file corruption charges against suspects. If suspects refused to produce evidence, they lose the right to protect themselves and only have to fight the charges in the court.

"If he returns, it is the duty of the government and Council for National Security to handle with him. I have no idea how they will manage,'' he said.

AEC secretary Kaewsan Atibodhi also said Thaksin's return to Thailand would not affect how AEC work. "We have the anticorruption law which empowers us to summon information from concern parties,'' he said.

The Nation

-------------------------------------------------

c'mon back, Thakky.... There's some folks that like to talk to you about some things...

[sriracha john]

Another source of funds for the Thaksin Machine?

Ua Athorn homes probe

The Assets Examination Committee (AEC) yesterday agreed to probe alleged corruption surrounding the Ua Athorn housing project for low-income earners initiated during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration.

AEC secretary Kaewsan Atibodhi said the committee could investigate as many as 22 projects at a time with each of its members assigned to one case.

The committee decided to take on the housing case after the Office of the Attorney-General found irregularities in management and land prices.

The National Housing Authority and Social Development and Human Security Ministry administered the scheme.

Meanwhile, the AEC has endorsed draft regulations empowering it to investigate corruption allegations. The draft will be submitted to the Office of the Prime Minister for publication in the Royal Gazette.

- The Nation

[Tony Clifton]

With all the financing Pojaman was doing with the Thai Rak Thai party, she was surely getting her investments back tenfold and buying land all over the place. I wonder when her turn under the microscope will come up.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin declares assets statement to NCCC

Ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra Wednesday had his representative file his financials statement with the National Counter Corruption Commission, NCCC spokesman Klanarong Chanthik said.

Klanarong said all the 33 members of the Thaksin Cabinet had filed their financial statement with the NCCC.

The Nation

-----------------------------------------------

No word on how many pallets full of boxed papers it took to print out all his assets.