Greek lawmakers back 3rd bailout after all-night debate

[webfact]

Greek lawmakers back 3rd bailout after all-night debate
DEREK GATOPOULOS, Associated Press
ELENA BECATOROS, Associated Press

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greek lawmakers approved their country's draft third bailout in a parliamentary vote Friday that relied on opposition party support and saw the government coalition suffer significant dissent.

The vote came after a marathon all-night session marked by procedural delays and acrimonious debate over the three-year, about 85 billion-euro ($93 billion) rescue package that includes harsh spending cuts and tax hikes. Greece needs the money to avoid defaulting on its debts and securing its future in the euro currency.

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has come under intense criticism from hardliners within his own radical left Syriza party for capitulating to creditor demands to introduce the austerity measures, many of whom voted against the bill. The discord is threatening to split his party and could lead to early elections.

Greece needed to pass the bill ahead of a meeting of eurozone finance ministers in Brussels Friday afternoon, where the ministers will decide whether to approve the draft agreement.

The deal will also need approval from the parliaments of several other countries, including that of Greece's harshest critic, Germany, before any funds can be disbursed. Some nations, such as Finland, have already given their approval.

Dissenters in Tsipras' own party angrily challenged the government, accusing it of reneging on anti-austerity promises it made before winning elections last January.

"I feel ashamed for you. We no longer have a democracy ... but a eurozone dictatorship," prominent party member and former energy minister Panagiotis Lafazanis said ahead of the vote. Lafazanis on Thursday co-signed a declaration along with another 12 left-wing politicians declaring they would start a new anti-austerity movement. He stopped short of quitting Syriza outright, however.

Tsipras' radical left party won elections in January on promises to repeal similar budget austerity imposed in return for Greece's two previous bailouts. His about-face, agreeing this week to tough terms with creditor negotiators from the European Central Bank, European Commission and International Monetary Fund, has led to outrage among hardliners that now threatens to split the party.

"We took a painful decision of responsibility, and took a step back," Tsipras said in his defense of the bailout. "Our position cannot be served by escape or by fantasy. We took the decision to remain alive instead of committing suicide and complaining how unfair it was."

Tsipras said Germany, and in particular its finance minister, Wolfgang Schaeuble, was attempting to undermine Greece and its position in Europe's joint currency, and would rather see Greece kicked out of the euro.

"In a few hours ... using unfair arguments and unfair demands, there will be an effort from the side of Mr. Schaeuble to take back what has been agreed," he said, referring to the finance ministers' meeting scheduled for later in the day. "That would not be a defeat for (Greek Finance Minister Euclid) Tsakalotos, or for Greece, but for Europe."


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-08-14

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

Kicking the can a few feet down the road.

[KarenBravo]

Did they really have a choice?

[micmichd]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

[Srikcir]

"We took the decision to remain alive instead of committing suicide"

TRANSLATION:

"We took the decision to remain IN POWER instead of committing POLITICAL suicide."

The bill only passed by TWO votes - 151 vs 149. Tsipras may be on his way to retirement in a month.

[hawker9000]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

What a ridiculous statement.

Gee, I guess I'm a colony to my mortgage company. Well, I'd rather be a "colony" than homeless, so I vote to go on being their "colony".

[micmichd]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

What a ridiculous statement.

Gee, I guess I'm a colony to my mortgage company. Well, I'd rather be a "colony" than homeless, so I vote to go on being their "colony".

If the your company would try to dictate you *how* to spend your money, you would probably think about leaving and look for another company.

I do.

[KarenBravo]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

What a ridiculous statement.

Gee, I guess I'm a colony to my mortgage company. Well, I'd rather be a "colony" than homeless, so I vote to go on being their "colony".

If the your company would try to dictate you *how* to spend your money, you would probably think about leaving and look for another company.

I do.

If a person who needed a loan asked you for it, would you lend them that money if you knew that they had a history of throwing expensive parties that sent them into debt?

If HOW you spent your own money made you broke, so that you then had to get a loan; then the person that lent you that money has every right to make sure that you spend the money in a way that they can pay back the loan.

Don't forget. This money was collected from other tax-payers.

[micmichd]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

What a ridiculous statement.

Gee, I guess I'm a colony to my mortgage company. Well, I'd rather be a "colony" than homeless, so I vote to go on being their "colony".

If the your company would try to dictate you *how* to spend your money, you would probably think about leaving and look for another company.

I do.

If a person who needed a loan asked you for it, would you lend them that money if you knew that they had a history of throwing expensive parties that sent them into debt?

If HOW you spent your own money made you broke, so that you then had to get a loan; then the person that lent you that money has every right to make sure that you spend the money in a way that they can pay back the loan.

Don't forget. This money was collected from other tax-payers.

Different things.

The main issue was Greek pensions. They are not higher than in Germany, but in Greece has not tax-financed welfare system like Germany. So, a whole family has to live on one pension.

I would agree on tax collection in Greece. There were certainly too many privileges to oligarchs, which probably wasn't very helpful to taxpaying morale. Guess the current Greek government wouldn't need people like Herr Schaeuble to change relic s from a time when Greece was ruled by a junta.

Last not least:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33845836

The other tax-payers (eg me) actually only gave a loan to the German government, and the government made some profit out of it. Where's my share of this profit? Pray tell.

[hawker9000]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

What a ridiculous statement.

Gee, I guess I'm a colony to my mortgage company. Well, I'd rather be a "colony" than homeless, so I vote to go on being their "colony".

If the your company would try to dictate you *how* to spend your money, you would probably think about leaving and look for another company.

I do.

They definitely DO dictate how I spend the money I owe them on the loan! I agreed to those terms; I have to either live with them, or do just as you say - find another company with whom I can refinance for better terms. But refinancing is hard to come by when you're a deadbeat and a proven bad risk ... And if I get to where I either don't or even can't pay my debts, a judge will not hesitate to tell me "how to spend" ALL my money! (The IRS, too, for that matter!) And if it comes to bankruptcy, I may be able to discharge most of my debt, but I sure as heck won't be seeing any more loans anytime soon.

Downright inhumane of those nasty lenders to actually insist on my paying back the money they lent me and I promised to pay back, isn't it? 'Never heard that referred to as "colonizing" before though. But as I said, better that than homeless.

[micmichd]

How can a country become homeless?

Maybe parts of the population can become homeless, and then you have migration.

Unfortunately, money doesn't grow on trees.

Why should a Greek migrant pay debts for a government that wasn't able to guarantee his/her life?

[hawker9000]

How can a country become homeless?

Maybe parts of the population can become homeless, and then you have migration.

Unfortunately, money doesn't grow on trees.

Why should a Greek migrant pay debts for a government that wasn't able to guarantee his/her life?

Nope. You're the only one babbling about migration. Ask what happens when a country has to close its banks. Or what happens when, having to fall back on its own currency that currency becomes worthless. Or when credit having collapsed, the economy collapses along with it. That's the answer to your "How can a country..." question.

...sort of like what happens when my personal credit collapses because I get too addicted to things I can't afford and my spending spirals out of control, and I keep listening to the idiots telling me it's all OK. Sooner or later the house of cards collapses. Very much what's now happened to Greece.

The tragedy is, I'm sure there were lots of fiscally responsible Greeks living their lives responsibly and with discipline, and who even understood that these policies were unsustainable and bound to lead to ruin and never supported them, who now get dragged into the abyss along with the fat, dumb & no-longer-so-happy mob by this socialist avalanche they saw coming. As for the rest; no sympathy. They got what they voted for and what they deserve. Silly to try & blame everyone else for their own reckless spending and lack of fiscal discipline.

Edited August 15, 2015 by hawker9000

[micmichd]

There's no such thing as loyalty in strict economic rationality.

If you see a bank run coming, you'll try to be the first to cash your assets. If you can't survive in the country you go somewhere else. If you don't do that you're dead.
That's all so far.

Edited August 15, 2015 by micmichd

[englishoak]

They will be back for more cash before the 3 years is up, count on it.

Nothings changed, just the debt got bigger and refinanced thats all.

This wont end well.

[micmichd]

They will be back for more cash before the 3 years is up, count on it.

Nothings changed, just the debt got bigger and refinanced thats all.

This wont end well.

The whole European economy will end up like this.

[hawker9000]

They will be back for more cash before the 3 years is up, count on it.

Nothings changed, just the debt got bigger and refinanced thats all.

This wont end well.

The whole European economy will end up like this.

If they don't learn a lesson from this and get their minds right, that's unavoidable. And not just Europe.

[KarenBravo]

They will be back for more cash before the 3 years is up, count on it.

Nothings changed, just the debt got bigger and refinanced thats all.

This wont end well.

The whole European economy will end up like this.

European economy?

Which bit of it are you talking about?

German economy is very different from Italian economy and both are different from the UK economy.

[billd766]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

What a ridiculous statement.

Gee, I guess I'm a colony to my mortgage company. Well, I'd rather be a "colony" than homeless, so I vote to go on being their "colony".

If the your company would try to dictate you *how* to spend your money, you would probably think about leaving and look for another company.

I do.

If you had borrowed the money why should you not repay it? Especially if you spent it on different things than you said you would.

[billd766]

There's no such thing as loyalty in strict economic rationality.

If you see a bank run coming, you'll try to be the first to cash your assets. If you can't survive in the country you go somewhere else. If you don't do that you're dead.

That's all so far.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Margaret_Thatcher

A quote attributed to Margaret Thatcher goes along the lines of

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."

or

"Eventually, Socialists run out of other peoples' money [to spend]."

[micmichd]

There's no such thing as loyalty in strict economic rationality.

If you see a bank run coming, you'll try to be the first to cash your assets. If you can't survive in the country you go somewhere else. If you don't do that you're dead.

That's all so far.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Margaret_Thatcher

A quote attributed to Margaret Thatcher goes along the lines of

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."

or

"Eventually, Socialists run out of other peoples' money [to spend]."

The problem with Margaret Thatcher is she believed that money grew on trees.

I would be content if I only would get *my* money, the money I had already worked for before banksters and cleptocrats took it.

[englishoak]

So, Greece decided to become a German colony.

What a ridiculous statement.

Gee, I guess I'm a colony to my mortgage company. Well, I'd rather be a "colony" than homeless, so I vote to go on being their "colony".

If the your company would try to dictate you *how* to spend your money, you would probably think about leaving and look for another company.

I do.

If you had borrowed the money why should you not repay it? Especially if you spent it on different things than you said you would.

But thats not how it works, a gov comes in borrows loads, spends it on something then gets booted out in elections, the next comes in finds out certain areas wernt sorted but the money went elsewhere, so they still have to fix the original problem so borrow but it happens again,, all change same thing still hasnt been fixed and all the time the problem is going to need a bigger investment than before and all the time payments for existing debt is draining the bank.

So it gets a bridging loan, and then gets booted out in an election... but the loan has been taken and spent...

All this time successive parties that get elected only do so by lying and cliaming to fix the books whilst giving everybody free stuff and promises they cant keep. So the people vote for them... turkeys might not vote for xmas but everyone wants a xmas present and turkeys are stupid things and if they could they would vote for xmas if you only told them about the presents and not the rest.

Not that I think the people should physically pay for their leaders bad financial management...

Put it this way an accountant, an architect, a surgeon are all legally responsible for what they do and their expertise.... an accountant signs off a bad return hes liable, an architect can be held responsible if his building collapses and a surgeon can be struck off for malpractice.

What is the personal risk for those who run countries and turn them into a basket case ? none far as I can see and there is no required professional background, no tests, no responsibility, no recourse after leaving office.

Everyones to blame but no one is to blame ...No way id be paying for the mess and id do all I could to avoid ever paying my gov another cent, id move and I were Greek id have been gone some time ago, its not come as a surprise or a shock to the Greeks I know and they all got out years ago seeing this coming.

Edited August 18, 2015 by englishoak

[Rancid]

Read the Germans are taking over Greek airports as part of enforced privatisation. This is good news as the Greeks are quite used to working under Germain rule, no doubt the majority that voted against this in the referendum are delighted. Apparently the German partners are the same Greek oligarchs that helped bankrupt the country in the first place. Well, if you're connected there never is a downside, just another opportunity...

[SheungWan]

The message for all the wise guys above advising the Greeks not to pay their debts is 'well don't then', the term is default. The price to pay is withdrawal from the Eurozone and introduction of the New Drachma. Go ahead, make our day.