Full-fledged western-inspired democracy 'unfit for Thailand'

[cumgranosalum]

there's always some smart-arse who thinks they are being terribly original by saying that democracy isn'tt for everyuone and then citing "democratic" countries as examples of democracy not working.

In truth they ARE working....the whole point of a democratic system is that it is always in a state of flux...there are arguments about everything - and normally they are heard.........why? because the main pillars of democracy are there and strong.

Churchill said - (but probaly didn't originate)

“democ­racy is the worst form of gov­ern­ment, except for all the oth­ers”

He has a point you know

[Fat Haggis]

Can you please provide links as to the cost to the people of Thailand as nobody in my house seems to be hit in their pockets.

Most rural people more than likely don't pay taxes, most don't qualify for the state pension and welfare scheme, so how exactly will they be worse off ?

So they don't use roads, bridges, town water, hospitals, schools or any other government infrastructure that might otherwise be built or improved with revenue stolen and wasted?

So once again, for the people who don't pay taxes, and don't qualify for the state pension or benefit system, how are they being hit in the pocket?

They use roads, I would guess a road tax pays for that, has that increased exponentially to cover the costs of the losses, no change to my car this year?

Road tolls, yep, they pay for that out of their pocket, from their salary, not seen any roads been put off limit to non tax payers... have you?

Water, they pay water rates, out of their salaries, there has been no exponentially increase to cover the loses noticed.

Hospitals and schools, already long term established, improving infrastructure is moot, when the calibre and standard of those inside are substandard. It's all very well having a beautiful looking school, if you don't have the quality of teachers teaching there. A bit like having a fancy 4x4 but you still drive like a bellend, you ain't going to improve the looks or standard of the car if you're still a tosser!!

What you're getting at is potential "future projects" and not what's in place now, so in other words, by your own standards, those who don't pay taxes, and remember you have to be in a State Run employment to get the benefits, you believe that the poor, non tax payers should not be admitted on these new roads, these new bridges, these new schools, these new hospitals then?

Sounds a lot like you're not really in touch with the rural communities within Thailand, regardless of their location, whether it the North, East, South or West, where many people are paid cash in hand for their days work.

So I will ask the question again, exactly how are they financially worse off? or how will they be financially worse off if they have to burden the loses from the prior Government. These things you mention they already have, and have used for longer than you and I have lived here.

What you're doing is making an assumption all these things will effect them, they won't, the roads are there, the schools and hospitals are there, there's a major upgrade on the roads around my area, I don't see anyone prevented nor prohibited from using it, nor anyone checking to see if the users are tax payers or not, there's dozens of quality hospitals that never turn people away, same with dentists, both state run and private.. The Thais already have their health care through their ID's, so I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to put across.

[Srikcir]

Virtually overnight a 55-year old JAPANESE KINGDOM became a western-inspired democracy and successfully continues after 70 years.

What makes Thailand so incapable - tradition?

[Christie Paul]

Reading this thread reminds me of a joke between a psychiatrist and his patient.

Dr : So you claim your brother thinks he's a chicken ?

Patient: Yes.

Dr : So have you attempted to point out to him, that this is not the case ?

Patient : No.

Dr : Why not ?

Patient : I would, but we need the eggs.

[MZurf]

Virtually overnight a 55-year old JAPANESE KINGDOM became a western-inspired democracy and successfully continues after 70 years.

What makes Thailand so incapable - tradition?

Rampant corruption, a military that takes power whenever it feels like it, a dearth of leaders with an ounce of integrity, crony-ism, the list goes on...

[JAG]

Democratic government has never survived in Thailand quite simply because the establishment snuffs it out if it results, or if (as is the case this last time round) it looks like it may result in a government not to their taste. It really is as simple as that.

As they will never let it evolve, then inevitably the people will eventually overthrow them. Not a happy prospect, but the eventual outcome.

You don't consider the excesses of the last government distasteful? Should the rice scam and the huge loan to prop up its losses been allowed to continue, the G2G theft allowed to reap millions, and the perpetrators to enact their own amnesty?

Your lessons in democracy are fine, but at what price.

Yes I do consider quite a lot of what the previous government did distasteful, different issues to differing degrees. The same is true of my opinion on all the preceding " Thaksin aligned" governments. I also for that matter approve of some of the things they have done over the last two decades.

My point is, as it has been consistently throughout these arguments, that the electorate have selected these governments, and it must be the electorate who either re select or dismiss them. That is how a democracy becomes established.

Of course there is a price to this process, but it is preferable to the alternative we have at the moment, which will almost inevitably end in a bloody (quite possibly literally) political mess.

[JAG]

Virtually overnight a 55-year old JAPANESE KINGDOM became a western-inspired democracy and successfully continues after 70 years.

What makes Thailand so incapable - tradition?

The Japanese Empire had to be brought to its knees, and occupied by the victors before it could be transformed.

It's possible that the current regime could be brought to its knees and Thailand transformed by internal rather than external pressures. I don't think at present there is the appetite for that, and although I am pretty sure that the regime would be unable to remain standing if shaken hard enough (it is rotten through and through) I wonder if the very large neighbours to the north would decide to get involved.

That may be a factor behind the current regimes enthusiasm for strengthening relationships.

[lostoday]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I don't drink but I'm against prohibition. I'm not gay but I am all for gay rights. I don't have to do a thing to appreciate the right to do that thing. In the USA not voting is a way of expressing an opinion. I would still fight for the right to vote.

[lostoday]

Democratic government has never survived in Thailand quite simply because the establishment snuffs it out if it results, or if (as is the case this last time round) it looks like it may result in a government not to their taste. It really is as simple as that.

As they will never let it evolve, then inevitably the people will eventually overthrow them. Not a happy prospect, but the eventual outcome.

You don't consider the excesses of the last government distasteful? Should the rice scam and the huge loan to prop up its losses been allowed to continue, the G2G theft allowed to reap millions, and the perpetrators to enact their own amnesty?

Your lessons in democracy are fine, but at what price.

The price it costs for an election. How much does an election cost in Thailand. It's not that expensive is it? In he West political parties spend the money on advertising in Thailand they cut out the middle man and give the people the money for the votes directly however I think it's still a lot cheaper than what it costs to be elected in the West.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The cost to the people of Thailand of Defendant Number 1's criminal governments has been huge, yet their supporters continue to accept their electoral bribes and re-elect them. The majority of Thai voters who DIDN'T vote these criminals have rights too, to a government that would obey the laws of the land, not suborn police to ignore their crimes, and not vote themselves an amnesty to prevent future prosecution.

Democratically elected governments should represent ALL the people, not just their supporters. It is not a winners and losers scenario, where the winners are entitled to ride roughshod while stealing as much as possible, and then offering expensive and unsustainable electoral bribes to be re-elected.

Wrong. A democratically government represents the people who voted for it. That is the first rule of political science. There is always a majority and minority who hold different ideas. One government thinks Thailand needs submarines and another does not. The government who does not want submarines does not represent the government who does. Get it?

[Blackfalds]

Democratic government has never survived in Thailand quite simply because the establishment snuffs it out if it results, or if (as is the case this last time round) it looks like it may result in a government not to their taste. It really is as simple as that.

As they will never let it evolve, then inevitably the people will eventually overthrow them. Not a happy prospect, but the eventual outcome.

You don't consider the excesses of the last government distasteful? Should the rice scam and the huge loan to prop up its losses been allowed to continue, the G2G theft allowed to reap millions, and the perpetrators to enact their own amnesty?

Your lessons in democracy are fine, but at what price.

"...Should the rice scam and the huge loan to prop up its losses been allowed to continue.."

Just a quickie comment on one quote here - as above.

Just to indicate that repetition of above as if it is fact, does not make it so. Lest Opposition mantra's be seen as factual as in above quote.

Anti-populism by a wealthy elite is common. Disregarding political objectives to Ag. subsidy programs is selective....If this had been a cash-dump to the southern, Anti-Democrat Party supporting rubber industry (as has been done in the past) its' analysis would have been totally different.

Politically driven, self-serving data generation does not imply reality. As much as an opposition tries to suggest what they say is gospel.

Being afraid to submit their take to an electorate says all one needs to know about its' veracity.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Blackfalds

[billd766]

They just go round and round don't they! Always BS, never lock anything in with cement. Democracy can work if the laws are written right in the first place.

There are many laws in Thailand and though I agree with you laws WITHOUT re-enforcement aren't worth the paper they are written on. The key is to enforce the law and make it equally applicable to ALL persons in Thailand.

In addition remove the law that gives politicians immunity from prosecution while parliament is in session.

[FredNL]

Son: "When I grow up I want to have a carreer in the organised crime"

Father: "As a bank director or as a politician ???"

[Blackfalds]

Son: "When I grow up I want to have a carreer in the organised crime"

Father: "As a bank director or as a politician ???"

The anti-politician ideology is a cornerstone for those seeking to assail Democracy.

[billd766]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

[Eric Loh]

This mantra following every coups in Thailand chanting the same thing of ridding corrupt and inefficient leaders. Took them 18 coups and numerous constitutions followed by each coups to arrive that Thailand is not ready. The sad fact is this establishment with its handy man military are still living in the past ousting the unfavored thinking they have the socio-economic upperhand. Fast forward, the millions who traditionally deferred to the establishment are shifting their political devotions to themselves. Deference can no longer be relied upon as the majority continue to thumbs up for the anti-establishment at the ballot box. Another coup is just round the corner.

[Benmart]

A Thai matter for Thais to workout.

[Emster23]

"It has seen the constitution torn up twice, and the government fall under a military regime." Maybe I missed something, but doesn't military coup come first and THEN constitution is torn up?

I do know that might help if taught Thai people conflict resolution skills and compromise... here it is winner take all

[Asheron]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

Because unlike North Korea you do not have to vote?

[Thai at Heart]

Absolute patronising nonsense. The reality is, that those at the top don't want to create a functioning democracy where equality and freedom are valued at all costs.

Class separation and partial treatment depending on who you know is what they want.

[elgordo38]

They just go round and round don't they! Always BS, never lock anything in with cement. Democracy can work if the laws are written right in the first place

The sad part is that there is also BS in the west and cement is in short supply.

[Asheron]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

I think we all agree that the UK system is everything but democratic.

[Fat Haggis]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

The vote was for the seats, don't you understand that mate? Elections have always been about the seats, if you have less people in a constituency voting for a seat, compared to a larger city, it matters not, the seats are what counts, not the votes, that is why you need a healthy opposition to counter this, it's all down to demographics. Scotland had more seats up for grabs and a population that was lied to in a previous referendum, whoever created the rules, and the constituencies to be contested are the ones to blame.

UKIP talked a lot, they just couldn't deliver on the day, the SNP talked, and they did deliver, however, the question that should be asked is "why does Scotland have so many constituency seats up for grabs? " and it's easy to see, somewhere along the line, instead of straight forward Counties, these counties were then sub divided, each having independent representatives, each City all over the UK has separate constituencies, why? Because it's all down to the number of seats available within Parliament, less seats available, the less chances of what happened in Scotland Bill.

Demographics won these seats for Scotland, pretty much the same way demographics works for the PTP/Reds

[lostoday]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

I think we all agree that the UK system is everything but democratic.

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

[lostoday]

"It has seen the constitution torn up twice, and the government fall under a military regime." Maybe I missed something, but doesn't military coup come first and THEN constitution is torn up?

I do know that might help if taught Thai people conflict resolution skills and compromise... here it is winner take all

The Thai people understand that just fine. It is the feudal landlords that have a problem with it.

[mojorison]

Q. ) So the people of the West voted for continuous war, ever increasing taxation, the evisceration of individual rights, spectacular corruption in high places and everything being owned and controlled by a dozen corporations.

A. ) Yes, that's democracy.

Q. ) Then what's the difference between democracy and oligarchy?

A. ) Shut up.

Taxation?

[elgordo38]

The cornerstone of democracy is that the people elected by the government are people of the highest morale fiber who will put the needs of the people in their constituency and the country above their own. More than that : if they do not then the people have the power to remove them from office.

In all of my 77 years politicians with "high moral fiber" have been a rare breed indeed. JFK comes to mind but his personal life was well you know. We all know what happened to him. Was he shot from the library or the grassy knoll? I like the 2 shooter theory. Remove them from office how? When you vote you have the choice of product A or B. When you tire of A you try B and back and forth it goes like laundry soap deteriorating in quality and going up in price. In some countries there are C and D choice but like Greece you vote in a party that works against the voters wishes and caves in. I watch the presidential race in the USA and the election campaign in Canada and it all fills me with disgust. Thank God for the Donald he spices things up otherwise they all spout the same old time worn drivel. It reminds me of the Terminator movies where big machines roll over everything and crush them.

[JAG]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

There is much truth in what you say, however the Government which has resulted from that election, and all the preceding ones In modern times has essentially represented the will of the electorate.

When these governments have offered themselves for re election the Chief of The General Staff of the British Army hasn't taken it upon himself to step in and prevent that happening.

But to return to your post, you are making a (valid) case for electoral reform rather than denying democracy exists.

Edited August 27, 2015 by JAG

[MaxLee]

Surprise, surprise, the ultimate law by the Thai-Chinese Elite for "Saving Face" and punishing and implement brainwash fear by defamation laws is ruling Siam for many many years beyond repair....

[elgordo38]

Democracy is overrated.

England, Australia, the USA - all democracies, all overregulated nanny states where inequality is increasing, the government follows the will of big business, and it's boring.

Democracy? Meh.

Are you the originator of the "nanny state" comment or are you plagiarizing it. Good to have you back. I see you have swung around to the fact that governments follow the wishes of big business. You have to feed some crumbs to the masses or they will revolt. There might be hope for you yet. Keep on truckin.

[Asheron]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

I think we all agree that the UK system is everything but democratic.

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

Please do not reply to my posts, i'm done playing your games.