Full-fledged western-inspired democracy 'unfit for Thailand'

[Asheron]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

There is much truth in what you say, however the Government which has resulted from that election, and all the preceding ones In modern times has essentially represented the will of the electorate.

When these governments have offered themselves for re election the Chief of The General Staff of the British Army hasn't taken it upon himself to step in and prevent that happening.

But to return to your post, you are making a (valid) case for electoral reform rather than denying democracy exists.

Surely in a democracy one vote equals one vote and not one vote "here" and "10 votes there" like with the case of the UK elections?

[Thai at Heart]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

I think we all agree that the UK system is everything but democratic.

The British system is as it is to deliver stable reliable govt without coalitions. That is what it is.

The lib dems have pushed for proportional representation for years are very quiet about it now since they would have disappeared completely in the last election if they had it.

The British system works because it has suitable checks and balances and an understanding among parliamentary parties about when to call and election should a govt lose significant votes in parliament.

Something Thailand doesn't have. It doesn't matter what system thailand comes up with. Ptp is always likely to win since they bring the votes en masse in the rural areas. Something the Democrats failed to notice forever.

There are millions of votes in Issaan and the North that the Democrats couldn't be bothered to gather for decades. Instead leaving them to local overlords to pack into their own pockets.

That is their fault and their fault alone.

Rather enjoying Labours rather ridiculous reform of their electoral system for leader falling to bits as it gets commandeered by God knows who. Sometimes too much democracy has unintended consequences.

[lostoday]

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

I think we all agree that the UK system is everything but democratic.

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

Please do not reply to my posts, i'm done playing your games.

I reply to the topic not the poster. You said we all agree that the UK system is not democratic and that is wrong. I think we can all agree that the UK system is 100% democratic although we all might not like the results of the elections.

[JAG]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

There is much truth in what you say, however the Government which has resulted from that election, and all the preceding ones In modern times has essentially represented the will of the electorate.

When these governments have offered themselves for re election the Chief of The General Staff of the British Army hasn't taken it upon himself to step in and prevent that happening.

But to return to your post, you are making a (valid) case for electoral reform rather than denying democracy exists.

Surely in a democracy one vote equals one vote and not one vote "here" and "10 votes there" like with the case of the UK elections?

.

As I said, an argument for electoral reform. Not one against democracy.

[Asheron]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

I think we all agree that the UK system is everything but democratic.

The British system is as it is to deliver stable reliable govt without coalitions. That is what it is.

The lib dems have pushed for proportional representation for years are very quiet about it now since they would have disappeared completely in the last election if they had it.

The British system works because it has suitable checks and balances and an understanding among parliamentary parties about when to call and election should a govt lose significant votes in parliament.

Something Thailand doesn't have. It doesn't matter what system thailand comes up with. Ptp is always likely to win since they bring the votes en masse in the rural areas. Something the Democrats failed to notice forever.

There are millions of votes in Issaan and the North that the Democrats couldn't be bothered to gather for decades. Instead leaving them to local overlords to pack into their own pockets.

That is their fault and their fault alone.

Rather enjoying Labours rather ridiculous reform of their electoral system for leader falling to bits as it gets commandeered by God knows who. Sometimes too much democracy has unintended consequences.

Such a bizarre view on democracy... "we (the parties) have this voting system so the voting sheep think they have democracy".

It's even more bizarre to defend a system like that because of "oh, it will be so nice and dandy not having to bother with coalitions". Since when is democracy supposed to be "easy" like in dictatorships?

[halloween]

Can you please provide links as to the cost to the people of Thailand as nobody in my house seems to be hit in their pockets.

Most rural people more than likely don't pay taxes, most don't qualify for the state pension and welfare scheme, so how exactly will they be worse off ?

So they don't use roads, bridges, town water, hospitals, schools or any other government infrastructure that might otherwise be built or improved with revenue stolen and wasted?

So once again, for the people who don't pay taxes, and don't qualify for the state pension or benefit system, how are they being hit in the pocket?

They use roads, I would guess a road tax pays for that, has that increased exponentially to cover the costs of the losses, no change to my car this year?

Road tolls, yep, they pay for that out of their pocket, from their salary, not seen any roads been put off limit to non tax payers... have you?

Water, they pay water rates, out of their salaries, there has been no exponentially increase to cover the loses noticed.

Hospitals and schools, already long term established, improving infrastructure is moot, when the calibre and standard of those inside are substandard. It's all very well having a beautiful looking school, if you don't have the quality of teachers teaching there. A bit like having a fancy 4x4 but you still drive like a bellend, you ain't going to improve the looks or standard of the car if you're still a tosser!!

What you're getting at is potential "future projects" and not what's in place now, so in other words, by your own standards, those who don't pay taxes, and remember you have to be in a State Run employment to get the benefits, you believe that the poor, non tax payers should not be admitted on these new roads, these new bridges, these new schools, these new hospitals then?

Sounds a lot like you're not really in touch with the rural communities within Thailand, regardless of their location, whether it the North, East, South or West, where many people are paid cash in hand for their days work.

So I will ask the question again, exactly how are they financially worse off? or how will they be financially worse off if they have to burden the loses from the prior Government. These things you mention they already have, and have used for longer than you and I have lived here.

What you're doing is making an assumption all these things will effect them, they won't, the roads are there, the schools and hospitals are there, there's a major upgrade on the roads around my area, I don't see anyone prevented nor prohibited from using it, nor anyone checking to see if the users are tax payers or not, there's dozens of quality hospitals that never turn people away, same with dentists, both state run and private.. The Thais already have their health care through their ID's, so I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to put across.

What a load of BS. Why do you need to minimise down to actual payment from a person's pocket? Don't you know that taxes collected belong to ALL Thai citizens to be used for their common benefit? Revenue stolen or wasted is a loss to all Thais.

[halloween]

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

Only if you believe elections are all that you need for democracy. OTOH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

[lostoday]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The cost to the people of Thailand of Defendant Number 1's criminal governments has been huge, yet their supporters continue to accept their electoral bribes and re-elect them. The majority of Thai voters who DIDN'T vote these criminals have rights too, to a government that would obey the laws of the land, not suborn police to ignore their crimes, and not vote themselves an amnesty to prevent future prosecution.

Democratically elected governments should represent ALL the people, not just their supporters. It is not a winners and losers scenario, where the winners are entitled to ride roughshod while stealing as much as possible, and then offering expensive and unsustainable electoral bribes to be re-elected.

Wrong. A democratically government represents the people who voted for it. That is the first rule of political science. There is always a majority and minority who hold different ideas. One government thinks Thailand needs submarines and another does not. The government who does not want submarines does not represent the government who does. Get it?

You sound a lot like Thaksin, only those that vote for him are entitled to government largesse. Is that how government works in your country?

The government of Australia represents ALL Australians, not just LNP voters. I notice you prefer not to comment on blatant criminality, is that uncomfortable for you?

I try to stay on topic. If the Australian government in power represents all Australians why do they have a party system? I believe if the HEMP party gained control they would do things many Australians would not like and many things are done now that the HEMP party does not like.

I guess you are just not acquainted with party politics in Thailand, Australia or anywhere in the world. Trump does not like Obama they would run two very different programs as would the current government of Thailand and the past one. Take submarines. Current government wants them and past government did not.

[lostoday]

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

Only if you believe elections are all that you need for democracy. OTOH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Can't have a democracy without elections. Feel free to name one country that is a democracy but does not have free elections.

[Thai at Heart]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

I think we all agree that the UK system is everything but democratic.

The British system is as it is to deliver stable reliable govt without coalitions. That is what it is.

The lib dems have pushed for proportional representation for years are very quiet about it now since they would have disappeared completely in the last election if they had it.

The British system works because it has suitable checks and balances and an understanding among parliamentary parties about when to call and election should a govt lose significant votes in parliament.

Something Thailand doesn't have. It doesn't matter what system thailand comes up with. Ptp is always likely to win since they bring the votes en masse in the rural areas. Something the Democrats failed to notice forever.

There are millions of votes in Issaan and the North that the Democrats couldn't be bothered to gather for decades. Instead leaving them to local overlords to pack into their own pockets.

That is their fault and their fault alone.

Rather enjoying Labours rather ridiculous reform of their electoral system for leader falling to bits as it gets commandeered by God knows who. Sometimes too much democracy has unintended consequences.

Such a bizarre view on democracy... "we (the parties) have this voting system so the voting sheep think they have democracy".

It's even more bizarre to defend a system like that because of "oh, it will be so nice and dandy not having to bother with coalitions". Since when is democracy supposed to be "easy" like in dictatorships?

Rather that than endless useless coalitions such as Italy with endless elections. The UK system has delivered stable democratic government for centuries. The whip system functions to allow free votes as required and MP rebellion is celebrated as far as I am concerned.

[billd766]

If democracy is so good and great, why did less than 60% of the UK and US populations exercise their democratic right to vote in the last elections.

I exercised my right to vote in the last UK election.

The party I voted for got over 4 million votes and gained one seat.

The SNP got less than half of the votes that the party I voted for but 57 seats.

Is THAT a shining example of western democracy?

There is much truth in what you say, however the Government which has resulted from that election, and all the preceding ones In modern times has essentially represented the will of the electorate.

When these governments have offered themselves for re election the Chief of The General Staff of the British Army hasn't taken it upon himself to step in and prevent that happening.

But to return to your post, you are making a (valid) case for electoral reform rather than denying democracy exists.

The problem with electoral reform is that if political parties can gain a majority they won't think about electoral reform and PR.

The party in the UK who talked about it the most were the Lib/Dems and when they got into a coalition with the Conservatives they quietly "forgot" about PR.

[Fat Haggis]

Can you please provide links as to the cost to the people of Thailand as nobody in my house seems to be hit in their pockets.

Most rural people more than likely don't pay taxes, most don't qualify for the state pension and welfare scheme, so how exactly will they be worse off ?

So they don't use roads, bridges, town water, hospitals, schools or any other government infrastructure that might otherwise be built or improved with revenue stolen and wasted?

So once again, for the people who don't pay taxes, and don't qualify for the state pension or benefit system, how are they being hit in the pocket?

They use roads, I would guess a road tax pays for that, has that increased exponentially to cover the costs of the losses, no change to my car this year?

Road tolls, yep, they pay for that out of their pocket, from their salary, not seen any roads been put off limit to non tax payers... have you?

Water, they pay water rates, out of their salaries, there has been no exponentially increase to cover the loses noticed.

Hospitals and schools, already long term established, improving infrastructure is moot, when the calibre and standard of those inside are substandard. It's all very well having a beautiful looking school, if you don't have the quality of teachers teaching there. A bit like having a fancy 4x4 but you still drive like a bellend, you ain't going to improve the looks or standard of the car if you're still a tosser!!

What you're getting at is potential "future projects" and not what's in place now, so in other words, by your own standards, those who don't pay taxes, and remember you have to be in a State Run employment to get the benefits, you believe that the poor, non tax payers should not be admitted on these new roads, these new bridges, these new schools, these new hospitals then?

Sounds a lot like you're not really in touch with the rural communities within Thailand, regardless of their location, whether it the North, East, South or West, where many people are paid cash in hand for their days work.

So I will ask the question again, exactly how are they financially worse off? or how will they be financially worse off if they have to burden the loses from the prior Government. These things you mention they already have, and have used for longer than you and I have lived here.

What you're doing is making an assumption all these things will effect them, they won't, the roads are there, the schools and hospitals are there, there's a major upgrade on the roads around my area, I don't see anyone prevented nor prohibited from using it, nor anyone checking to see if the users are tax payers or not, there's dozens of quality hospitals that never turn people away, same with dentists, both state run and private.. The Thais already have their health care through their ID's, so I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to put across.

What a load of BS. Why do you need to minimise down to actual payment from a person's pocket? Don't you know that taxes collected belong to ALL Thai citizens to be used for their common benefit? Revenue stolen or wasted is a loss to all Thais.

Not for the first time since you clearly stated the average Thai would have to foot the bill for the huge losses on the rice scam, and yet every single time I ask you for link to support this, you completely dodge the question, or simply SWAG the answer, not for the first time you bring in "future projects" and have the same mantra, but will these people use X, Y or Z..

Roads were here before and nobody seemed to carry a huge burden for those, Hospitals were here before the rice scam too, and nobody seemed to be burdened financially with these facilities being constructed either... so who is the one spouting BS here?

For someone who has the " Raised on Bullshit" in their profile, you need to get your sinuses checked, as it's your own bullshit that you are smelling !!

[JAG]

Well the Lib Des pushed for and got a referendum on it, which I suppose is democracy at work.

I seem to remember some cynic describing the system as counting the votes in a variety of different ways until the Lib Dems win!

[Baerboxer]

Thailand isn't ready? Yes it is, it's the controlling elite of the country from all sides who are not ready to lose their grip and control over their minions, if the Military stopped interfering and went back to running the country's golf courses sorry providing defence to the country, trimmed down their over inflated list of Generals, who all need backhanders, sorry salaries, Thailand might actually start being allowed to move into the 21st century.

It's always the Junta fanbois who keep stating that Thailand isn't ready for any sort of democracy, and yet they whined and bitch about this, but still decided that whatever Thailand has/had to offer, it's a hundred times better than their home countries yes? ... I highly doubt this for one minute!!

Thailand isn't ready? Yes it is, no its not, yes it is, no its not...reason why I have stepped back from political debate on this site and happily watch the good general getting on with opening the corrupt countries' mouth and jamming down a brand new medicine however bitter and different, as nothing else has to date corrected the low morality of the country's leaders and power bases and more so try to defuse or disable the patronage system especially starting in all levels of politics and governance that is at the front of the countries problem.

I'm a Junta fanboy, only as it is a better short term option that what was before, I am an admirer of Khun Prayuth for having the balls to undertake what he has, but am intelligent enough to know that Thailand was a basket case that was heading for the cess pit under the Shinawatra's and comes nowhere close to the democratic paradise of New Zealand that I was blessed to be born into. Its a hundred times worse than my home country. But then I am not there to abuse the place and its people.

So I can disagree cause I see Thailand's needs something and it ain't just another reset for more of what it has ever had to date including the inept democrats, the more criminal and democratic less Thaksin, nor the bumbling generals. The only thing putting the generals back to the golf course will do is allow the inept and criminal political scumbags back in to continue raping and pillaging the place at the ever increasing rate that was occurring.

From the comments in the OP"s article what is being proposed and being gradually implemented is a different medicine and different approach by the Thai's. No democracies are the same and what works for some would not for others. Take two western democracies like New Zealand and the USA and while they are both built on the basic principles of democracy they are nothing like each other. New Zealanders would not tolerate the corruption and garbage of American politics, yet it works for America. And that is the key here for the Thai's. Build something that recognises the issues that exist with the potential for development of that system as it evolves. At least this current lot have the intelligence to recognise if one just keeps on churning out the same old garbage, without going to the root cause of the garbage stink, then nothing is going to change.

Will what is being propsed here work? Who knows. Without attacking patronage and enforcing law then probably not. But then those are also items on the agenda that are gradually being reformed. So possibly it might. One thing is for sure. Its different, its attacking the real stink in the country (one only has to listen to the criminal politicians bleating) and at least its trying to find solutions.

All democracies have one thing in common. Leaders appointed by voting of the people.

Moreover they are removed by the voting of the people. All of them.

In democracies those elected officials who break the law are removed - Nixon ring a bell. Or when caught are shamed into resigning. Scandals force them out of office and made lead to prosecutions.

They don't wait until next election and have a trial by voting. Here, maybe dissolve parliament, resign from the caretaker position and then grab it back and seemingly not be too hurried about a new election. Or a system that seemingly permits a convicted criminal to run the government and appoint the cabinet, changing it at will without anyone voting for him as he can't stand. Or a military that takes over and wants to run the country like the military - so much easier without elections and parliamentary debate.

A legal system that ties itself in knots with countless law suits, threats of law suits, deliberate misinterpretation and misuse of laws, enforced by one of the most corrupt collection of numb skulls on the planet?

Yes, Thailand is ready for Western style democracy, whatever that is, and has even chosen the German system as one to be admired.

And, of course simply holding an election will solve all the problems in a jiffy.

[elliss]

Democracy is overrated.

England, Australia, the USA - all democracies, all overregulated nanny states where inequality is increasing, the government follows the will of big business, and it's boring.

Democracy? Meh.

UK , democracy ?

The Labour party are now vetting voters, in the Labour leadership contest .

Democracy has limits, only acceptable leadership contestants allowed .

I think Thai nationals , are less programmed , than the western,err so called civilised World,

Edited August 27, 2015 by elliss

[Baerboxer]

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

Only if you believe elections are all that you need for democracy. OTOH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Thank you posting this.

Of course tbthailand will be along soon to tell us that democracy only requires elections.

[lostoday]

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

Only if you believe elections are all that you need for democracy. OTOH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Thank you posting this.

Of course tbthailand will be along soon to tell us that democracy only requires elections.

You can't have a democracy without free elections. Feel free to name one country that is a democracy with no free elections?

[Baerboxer]

.

As I said, an argument for electoral reform. Not one against democracy.

Bild raises a good point, that many in the UK, a mature democracy, are seeing as a big issue. A small number of people can vote for a party and have a vastly superior representation in parliament than a much larger number of people. That's down to the way the constituencies are drawn up and the first past the post system. So the SNP now has a significant number of seats in the UK parliament, based on a relatively small number of people compared to a party who gained one seat with twice as many voting for them.

PR can be a disaster - and lead to endless changes in government.

The US republic system gives equal representation to states regardless of size, and was designed to do so. Is that more democratic than giving more populous states more representation? Or is it desirable to ensure all states get the same so the smaller ones aren't overruled?

Thailand has it's constituency and party list system for the lower house and a semi appointed system for it's upper. Thailand needs to decide the appropriate system if that system requires reform. But who should do that? In the West, when there is talk of reform, there is bickering as politicians want to decide the reforms and of course want the system that favors them the most.

If the UK were to consider electoral reforms, who would be on the committee, who would choose that committee and who would be the watchdogs?

Democracy is banded about by many countries who have voting systems. All those old Warsaw Pact countries claimed to be democratic republics, just as NK does.

[Baerboxer]

Not at all. Exactly the opposite. The West is 100% democratic. They have elections.

Only if you believe elections are all that you need for democracy. OTOH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Thank you posting this.

Of course tbthailand will be along soon to tell us that democracy only requires elections.

You can't have a democracy without free elections. Feel free to name one country that is a democracy with no free elections?

Did I say you could have democracy without free elections? No. Or perhaps you have difficulty comprehending the sentence. Or never bothered to read the link in Halloween's post? Or both?

[lostoday]

Only if you believe elections are all that you need for democracy. OTOH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Thank you posting this.

Of course tbthailand will be along soon to tell us that democracy only requires elections.

You can't have a democracy without free elections. Feel free to name one country that is a democracy with no free elections?

Did I say you could have democracy without free elections? No. Or perhaps you have difficulty comprehending the sentence. Or never bothered to read the link in Halloween's post? Or both?

H posted, "Only if you believe elections are all that you need for democracy" You posted, "Thank you posting this." I posted, "You can't have a democracy without free elections" Makes sense to me.

[onelasttime]

Ok, I know I am going to get flamed but here goes. I for one do not think that what has become known as a Western democracy is right for Thailand; at least at the moment. However, my reasoning is at odds with the current government's and their cronies. There is no doubt in my mind that the govt. is trying to return Thailand to a mythical ' Golden Age', based upon the idea that the elite possess the the right to govern. The reason Western democracy will not work in Thailand is because Thailand is still a feudal state. Sure it exhibits all the trappings of a developing country but the core beliefs and importantly operational functioning of Thai society is based upon allegiances to someone higher up the 'food chain'. These allegiances are are almost tribal in the way power is organised and distributed throughout Thai society.

So, until such time as these feudal power bases are completely abolished...Thailand is not ready for a Western style democracy. Unfortunately the model currently being proposed will only disenfranchise millions of Thais.

[JAG]

Thailand isn't ready? Yes it is, it's the controlling elite of the country from all sides who are not ready to lose their grip and control over their minions, if the Military stopped interfering and went back to running the country's golf courses sorry providing defence to the country, trimmed down their over inflated list of Generals, who all need backhanders, sorry salaries, Thailand might actually start being allowed to move into the 21st century.

It's always the Junta fanbois who keep stating that Thailand isn't ready for any sort of democracy, and yet they whined and bitch about this, but still decided that whatever Thailand has/had to offer, it's a hundred times better than their home countries yes? ... I highly doubt this for one minute!!

Thailand isn't ready? Yes it is, no its not, yes it is, no its not...reason why I have stepped back from political debate on this site and happily watch the good general getting on with opening the corrupt countries' mouth and jamming down a brand new medicine however bitter and different, as nothing else has to date corrected the low morality of the country's leaders and power bases and more so try to defuse or disable the patronage system especially starting in all levels of politics and governance that is at the front of the countries problem.

I'm a Junta fanboy, only as it is a better short term option that what was before, I am an admirer of Khun Prayuth for having the balls to undertake what he has, but am intelligent enough to know that Thailand was a basket case that was heading for the cess pit under the Shinawatra's and comes nowhere close to the democratic paradise of New Zealand that I was blessed to be born into. Its a hundred times worse than my home country. But then I am not there to abuse the place and its people.

So I can disagree cause I see Thailand's needs something and it ain't just another reset for more of what it has ever had to date including the inept democrats, the more criminal and democratic less Thaksin, nor the bumbling generals. The only thing putting the generals back to the golf course will do is allow the inept and criminal political scumbags back in to continue raping and pillaging the place at the ever increasing rate that was occurring.

From the comments in the OP"s article what is being proposed and being gradually implemented is a different medicine and different approach by the Thai's. No democracies are the same and what works for some would not for others. Take two western democracies like New Zealand and the USA and while they are both built on the basic principles of democracy they are nothing like each other. New Zealanders would not tolerate the corruption and garbage of American politics, yet it works for America. And that is the key here for the Thai's. Build something that recognises the issues that exist with the potential for development of that system as it evolves. At least this current lot have the intelligence to recognise if one just keeps on churning out the same old garbage, without going to the root cause of the garbage stink, then nothing is going to change.

Will what is being propsed here work? Who knows. Without attacking patronage and enforcing law then probably not. But then those are also items on the agenda that are gradually being reformed. So possibly it might. One thing is for sure. Its different, its attacking the real stink in the country (one only has to listen to the criminal politicians bleating) and at least its trying to find solutions.

All democracies have one thing in common. Leaders appointed by voting of the people.

Moreover they are removed by the voting of the people. All of them.

In democracies those elected officials who break the law are removed - Nixon ring a bell. Or when caught are shamed into resigning. Scandals force them out of office and made lead to prosecutions.

They don't wait until next election and have a trial by voting. Here, maybe dissolve parliament, resign from the caretaker position and then grab it back and seemingly not be too hurried about a new election. Or a system that seemingly permits a convicted criminal to run the government and appoint the cabinet, changing it at will without anyone voting for him as he can't stand. Or a military that takes over and wants to run the country like the military - so much easier without elections and parliamentary debate.

A legal system that ties itself in knots with countless law suits, threats of law suits, deliberate misinterpretation and misuse of laws, enforced by one of the most corrupt collection of numb skulls on the planet?

Yes, Thailand is ready for Western style democracy, whatever that is, and has even chosen the German system as one to be admired.

And, of course simply holding an election will solve all the problems in a jiffy.

No holding an election will not solve Thailand's political problems "in a jiffy". However it is the precursor to the long process of solving them.

Allowing the electorate to select the government, and likewise allowing them to pass a judgment on that government, to either reappoint them or dismiss them is the only legitimate route to establishing a stable democracy. As the previous poster remarked, much of Thailand is still essentially feudal. Well respecting the sovereignty of the electorate, rather than allowing other agencies, which are all primarily driven by these feudal loyalties, to determine the future of a government is the only way to dismantle this feudal infrastructure.

It will not be a quick process, it will not produce an utopian democracy, but it will allow a democratic tradition to develop.

The alternative, eventually, will end up with increasing resistance to increasingly unpopular authoritarian regimes, which will inevitably be overthrown violently.

Edited August 27, 2015 by JAG

[bkkcanuck8]

Thai constitutions are not worth the paper they are written on - they last an average 4 years - corruption or not.

If corruption is what you want to tackle, create an elite investigative force - really highly paid..... and if they are found to be corrupt the penalty is forfeiture of everything and being charged with treason and executed.

This group would have the additional task of administering annual polygraph tests (similar to the FBI) along with manditory asset declaration of ALL senior ALL middle level police, civil service, military, judicial and government appointments. They would also be responsible for verifying the assets declaration confirmation and investigation for unusual wealth/assets.

Failure to pass the polygraph - gone.... it might get a few people that it shouldn't but extraordinary problems require extraordinary solutions.

A non-corrupt police, judicial and civil service is the best way to control corruption in the political level.... but they really don't seem to worried about corruption - just corruption by the wrong people.

[Tonawatchee]

Until Thais learn how to become accountable, democracy is moot.

[Asheron]

Until Thais learn how to become accountable, democracy is moot.

Don't hold your breath.

[chiang mai]

We don't need no stinkin' democracy.

[chilli42]

"After things fell apart like we'd never seen, I would like to ask if we still want it - a Western-style full-fledged democracy?" he asked."

On what planet would the political environment in Thailand during the last 20 years be called a "Western-style full-fledged democracy"? This gentleman is full-fledged delusional. It's just a game that rich people play for their benefit.

[arrowsdawdle]

The Thais just an't come out and say what it is. They prefer to focus on what it is not.

That is because it moves toward nothing, only away from the will of the people.

[rubl]

Thailand isn't ready? Yes it is, it's the controlling elite of the country from all sides who are not ready to lose their grip and control over their minions, if the Military stopped interfering and went back to running the country's golf courses sorry providing defence to the country, trimmed down their over inflated list of Generals, who all need backhanders, sorry salaries, Thailand might actually start being allowed to move into the 21st century.

It's always the Junta fanbois who keep stating that Thailand isn't ready for any sort of democracy, and yet they whined and bitch about this, but still decided that whatever Thailand has/had to offer, it's a hundred times better than their home countries yes? ... I highly doubt this for one minute!!

Hilarious : blaming the Junta for stopping progress.

A bimbo with no political experience put in as a useless PM because she is the brother of a man in exile because of corruption (and don't try to say he is innocent).

Attempts to take MASSIVE loans off-budget (with no good explanation) to have the people pay it off for the next 50 years. And if you don't realize that it would have been gradually siphoned away on things like the rice-scheme to avoid bankrupting the country then you are living in a fantasy world.

Railroading an amnesty bill through Parliament in the most disgraceful manner possible to absolve themselves of all corruption charges since 2004.

Sending terrorists to murder peaceful protestors to scare them off the streets.

Is this your idea of what Democracy is ?. A 310:0 vote for amnesty : not a single member of the government had the ethics to vote for what was right. Not one !.

The word hypocrite is not strong enough to describe the people who whine about the Junta and ignore the reasons they are there in the first place.

You can keep calling us 'Junta Fanboys' if it convinces you that you are right in your little room spitting on your keyboard as you type - but the truth of the situation is that most intelligent people don't agree with a Junta at all. They are far from ideal but they are a hundred times better than that last bunch of dirty cronies who were stealing everything they could from the country and it's people.

You wont find me disagreeing on anything that the PTP did, they needed to have been removed, no two doubts about that, and I have always said, from day one, the way to have done this was through the called elections, yes yes yes I know but "paid votes" blah blah blah, don't you people get it that the democrats are unelectable? The proof of all the claims about the PTP being a spent force would have finally been proven correct/wrong, had the democrats not lost their bottle and decided not to run.

As far as I'm aware, the amnesty bill was killed off anyway, however, shall we really go down this road ? staging coups and giving themselves amnesties, now and forever is every bit as "disgusting".

Sending terrorists to murder peaceful protesters? I have asked you repeatedly to support these claims, for almost a year now, and not a single shred of evidence have you provided, you have clearly stated this allegation time ad time again that the PTP Government ordered this, and for some reason, you seem to be able to get away with it, many anti Junta members here have asked you to back up these claims, like me, however you constantly deflect and dodge this. I genuinely am interested in the orally and written instructions from the Government passed to terrorists, you obviously have information that nobody else seems to have, so care to share it?

My idea of a democracy is for the Army to stop interfering in the Politics of the country, let things take their course, and no not a golf course, as that's about all the Army are good at managing these days. Politicians can be voted out, how do you get rid of a Junta that doesn't want to, nor look like it wants to give power back to the people?

Of course I have also always stated that there's a much bigger picture as to why the Junta HAS to be in power, again and for the forseable future , something you sycophants rarely acknowledge, like you're actually scared of admitting. This goes way beyond reforms, and is all about the power base of the future. You are also one of the "civil war was looming" crowd too, and yet there is already one going on down in the South, time and time and time again, it's been explained to the civil war crowd, just how much it takes logistically, financially, militarily to start any sort of war that you want to protract longer than a single day, staging a coup is a complex military operation, starting and maintaining/supporting a civil war is a dozen times harder, but hey, it's a cool buzz word, and a justification for a coup though eh?

I do love the part where you mention most intelligent people don't agree with a junta at all.... and there you are lauding praise on them post after post..ummm okay

As for the last lot, as previously mentioned, no argument from me there, but what makes you think the current snouts in the trough are not doing exactly as the last snouts? I mean, the Junta are totally transparent aren't they? They have been involved in corruption and illegal actions for decades, from human trafficking to land encroachment to misappropriation of equipment. They are untouchable, and that to me needs to change, you want to hold politicians with such high regards, you apply that across the board, all Government representatives should be held accountable, as should those serving their country!!

As for Yingluck, bimbo she was, to me she was just "eye candy" nothing more, somebody the public could endear to, a distraction, and it worked to a degree, the darling of Issan indeed, it was indeed a masterstroke by Thaksin.

Whose face would have looked better on billboards spread out all over the country? Yinglucks, Chalerms? Vera's? The dems had their poster boy Abhisit, he had the looks and could talk the talk, he just didn't have the appeal to sway votes, even if they were bought ones.

95% with you there but you lost it with the Yingluck "bimbo" comment

Thailand's first female PM was NOT a "bimbo", was she a great? NO but she has carried herself with integrity and a calm demeanour which shows inner strength. She will be remembered as much a 'victim' as anything but she does not deserve a 'bimbo' tagline. She won the elections and she would win again. Give her a break as all this is not about her anyway (or Thaksin). it's all about... censored

Absolutely! Not a bimbo, a Thai pretty maybe, but not a bimbo. Furthermore she's been the victim of an evil male who conned the local population is believing a vote for his party was a vote for him.

BTW as for what face looks better, of course that of Ms. Yingluck. At that time she even didn't need much retouche. Still just asking 'who looked better' suggest that you yourself seem to regard that aspect very important, as if an MP or even a PM needs to look good, smile, avoid questions and shed a tear or two when pressed by naughty reporters.

Somehow you don't seem to care about democracy, be it Western or Thai style.

[manarak]

to come back to the topic, full-fledged Western style democracy is not only unfit for Thailand, it is in general unfit everywhere.

many Western democracies are driving themselves into the wall because unproductive voters have too much influence on the outcome of votes while prodcutive citzens tend to emigrate.