Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[BritTim]

It has been stated since early on in this case that the key evidence would be DNA from semen found in Hannah's body. There are a couple of other issues that have not yet been fully addressed by the defense, but I think it fair to say the claimed DNA matches from the semen samples is still key. This is where I think we stand on this.

• The defense wanted to have the semen samples independently retested.
• The RTP stated that the semen samples were all used up. They later clarified this with saying that replicated DNA from an intermediate step in the DNA testing process was still available. It would not be possible to independently confirm that this replicated originated from a semen sample.
  It should be noted that extremely small quantities of semen are needed for DNA profiling. In almost all cases, only a portion is used for original testing with the rest retained for future possible independent retesting. For there to be no residual samples in this case is absolutely baffling unless one concludes that the evidence was deliberately disposed of.
• For any retesting, the RTP would provide the samples for retesting.
• There are serious doubts about the chain of custody of the DNA samples.
• The defense eventually decided against retesting replicated DNA that may or may not have originated from semen samples under such conditions.
• Among other issues, in such serious cases, all DNA testing should have been done by the Central Institute of Forensic Science to ensure professional and objective forensic analysis. The CIFS was specifically established to provide confidence in the Thailand criminal justice system. The fact that the CIFS was bypassed in this case is a huge red flag.
• Even with the DNA testing being done in-house by the RTP itself, efforts seem to have been made to bypass other safeguards to ensure proper results. For example, a police pathologist responsible for testing stated that he was simply given the profiles of persons to test against, and the local District 8 police were the only people able to coordinate all DNA test results.

In my opinion, it is probable that the DNA results were manipulated. We may never be able to prove it. I hope the judges will recognize that to convict on the strength of such doubtful evidence would be a massive injustice.

[fish fingers]

A mute Burmese beach cleaner stumbled upon the bodies shortly after dawn. A garden hoe and wooden club found nearby were quickly fingered as the principal murder weapons.

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar

Was it a half blind gardener that discovered the bodies or a mute Burmese cleaner? Seems very convenient that these people have such disabilities. Was the mute beach cleaner in court to testify anyone know?

I think the media were told the person who found the bodies was mute because they wanted to head off attempts to find and question him.

Local sources tell this first person was an (apparently Thai) female with mental problems and acute alcoholism - semi blind was the least of her worries- that used to comb the beaches for saleables and recyclables daily pre-dawn. I say used to because as the trial was starting her body was discovered sliced up and dumped in garbage bags at the town dump. CSI did have mentions of this at the time but of course it was hushed up by local officialdom. There were dozens of witnesses to this, the shock made all the more profound as it was the 2nd chopped up Asian body to be found in the same place that week.

So basically the person who first discovered the bodies/moved the weapon was murdered... Is this 100% fact? Not that I'm saying it isn't, just gobsmacked and surprised not to read about this before.

[BritTim]

Local sources tell this first person was an (apparently Thai) female with mental problems and acute alcoholism - semi blind was the least of her worries- that used to comb the beaches for saleables and recyclables daily pre-dawn. I say used to because as the trial was starting her body was discovered sliced up and dumped in garbage bags at the town dump. CSI did have mentions of this at the time but of course it was hushed up by local officialdom. There were dozens of witnesses to this, the shock made all the more profound as it was the 2nd chopped up Asian body to be found in the same place that week.

This is an interesting tale, but points up the problem with all anonymous reports, whether repeated on CSI LA or not. There is absolutely no way to know whether or not it is true. That is why you do not read such stuff in the mainstream media unless at least some substantiation can be added.

[fireplay]

Local sources tell this first person was an (apparently Thai) female with mental problems and acute alcoholism - semi blind was the least of her worries- that used to comb the beaches for saleables and recyclables daily pre-dawn. I say used to because as the trial was starting her body was discovered sliced up and dumped in garbage bags at the town dump. CSI did have mentions of this at the time but of course it was hushed up by local officialdom. There were dozens of witnesses to this, the shock made all the more profound as it was the 2nd chopped up Asian body to be found in the same place that week.

This is an interesting tale, but points up the problem with all anonymous reports, whether repeated on CSI LA or not. There is absolutely no way to know whether or not it is true. That is why you do not read such stuff in the mainstream media unless at least some substantiation can be added.

Wouldn't there be a way to confirm a brutal hacking and disposed body by some sort of police report on the island? I mean come on...this is massive news!

[boomerangutang]

I'm 50 - 50 on NS. I would like to have seen a verified DNA to reassure me rather than the circus in Bangkok, but regards the CCTV that was analysed by Thai PBS. As far as I'm concerned this carries no weight or proof whatsoever.

CCTV evidence can only be credible if the actual source has been verified from where it was taken and that the time stamp is the original one. There are plenty of UK police guidance documents on this do a Google for "uk police cctv evidence collection and authentication" and you'll find numerous official documents and guidance on the use of cctv as evidence in court and the authentication process it needs to go through first.

Its been demonstrated just how easy it is to change the time stamp for the whole stored cctv recording in situ of the hard drive on another site on that particular model of cctv, it then just needs to be handed to whoever wants it and it appears genuine but in fact has been changed to whatever dates or time were wanted.

So this means we cant trust anything the Thai police in Bangkok shows us as CCTV evidence, who else is going to verify they did their job ? I agree with the theory that there could be other reasons for NS not want to publizie the footage of him entering his room, maybe because of a love affair. But thats just more speculations of course.

So what it boils down to is that NS has been cleared but still it's not possible to clear him because of the reputation of the police .

Whether or not the CCTV showing NS leaving the lobby in Bkk is valid - is a moot point. It's been shown that a desperate young man with money could get to Bkk from KT on a Monday morning in roughly 4 hours. The CCTV was 4.5 hours after the crime wrapped up. Do the math.

NS was 'cleared' according to Balo, but that RTP clearance didn't fool any reasonable-thinking person. The police have shown in dozens of ways how they have a thick agenda to do all they can to shield the Headman's family/friends from any involvement. Come on Balo, even you can connect the dots on that issue.

[BritTim]

Local sources tell this first person was an (apparently Thai) female with mental problems and acute alcoholism - semi blind was the least of her worries- that used to comb the beaches for saleables and recyclables daily pre-dawn. I say used to because as the trial was starting her body was discovered sliced up and dumped in garbage bags at the town dump. CSI did have mentions of this at the time but of course it was hushed up by local officialdom. There were dozens of witnesses to this, the shock made all the more profound as it was the 2nd chopped up Asian body to be found in the same place that week.

This is an interesting tale, but points up the problem with all anonymous reports, whether repeated on CSI LA or not. There is absolutely no way to know whether or not it is true. That is why you do not read such stuff in the mainstream media unless at least some substantiation can be added.

Wouldn't there be a way to confirm a brutal hacking and disposed body by some sort of police report on the island? I mean come on...this is massive news!

According to the report, two chopped up bodies. On Koh Tao, it is possible that both were recorded as death by natural causes and the bodies quietly disposed of. My guess, however, is that the report was fanciful.

[boomerangutang]

Thumbs up for Dr Pornthip, looks like a typical loony scientist but proved her honesty, technical skills, knowledge and impartiality at the trial for the sake of real justice.

Ms Pontip's expertise is appreciated, and it was heartening to see the photo of her and AH standing alongside the scapegoats' mothers and offering support. However, I can't help but think Ms Pontip could have done a bit more. She mentioned findings of the two mystery mens' DNA found on the murder weapon, but did she demand there be a search for who those men are? OK, this is Thailand, so 50% of most conversations are inference (things not plainly stated, but instead inferred). Did Ms Pontip mention DNA related to that found on Hannah or on any of the clothing/items found in/around the crime scene? On second thought, the court put a tight clamp on what could or could not be tested. Plus RTP didn't expend any calories looking for clothes/items outside the crime scene. Indeed, RTP didn't even care about where Hannah's skirt or blouse may have gone. So, I guess if items don't exist, then they can't tested, eh? ....oh, and why David's clothing at the crime scene looked newly laundered, ....not even any blood splatter, despite blood all over the sand. ....and none of the blood on the sand was tested. The mind reels at how the investigation was so profoundly inept.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

[Just1Voice]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

Are you really that ignorant when it comes to cops in Thailand lying? The don't give a damn about perjury, as it's almost never, ever applied to them. So they will lie their asses off about anything and everything that will make sure they get the conviction they want. I know of a case where a Lt. Colonel and 2 Snr Sgt Majors lied in count about "definitely seeing" a suspect "with a gun in his hand" at a crime scene, and it later came out that the "suspect" wasn't even in the country at the time of the crime! Why did they lie? The crime was against a hi-so who wanted a conviction, no matter what, and paid well for it.

The husband of my wife's favorite cousin is a Snr. Sgt. Major, and he's joked with me about how they lie all the time to get someone convicted. He's admitted to me that some cases pay very well for the lies they tell.

You say you aren't a lawyer or a judge. Apparently you're not up to speed on the complete and total corruption of the Thai police force either. I've been married for 7 years, and through that marriage/family have met a few dozen cops, and I can tell you now, I have yet to meet a single one that is even remotely honest. Great bunch of guys to party with, but honest? Oh, please, give me a break!

[minikev]

A mute Burmese beach cleaner stumbled upon the bodies shortly after dawn. A garden hoe and wooden club found nearby were quickly fingered as the principal murder weapons.

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar

Was it a half blind gardener that discovered the bodies or a mute Burmese cleaner? Seems very convenient that these people have such disabilities. Was the mute beach cleaner in court to testify anyone know?

I think the media were told the person who found the bodies was mute because they wanted to head off attempts to find and question him.

Local sources tell this first person was an (apparently Thai) female with mental problems and acute alcoholism - semi blind was the least of her worries- that used to comb the beaches for saleables and recyclables daily pre-dawn. I say used to because as the trial was starting her body was discovered sliced up and dumped in garbage bags at the town dump. CSI did have mentions of this at the time but of course it was hushed up by local officialdom. There were dozens of witnesses to this, the shock made all the more profound as it was the 2nd chopped up Asian body to be found in the same place that week.

So basically the person who first discovered the bodies/moved the weapon was murdered... Is this 100% fact? Not that I'm saying it isn't, just gobsmacked and surprised not to read about this before.

It was reported that a woman beach cleaner was the first person to the crime scene, (after the murderers left).It was also reported that later a half blind man moved and cleaned the hoe as it belonged to him.

If it's true that the woman was found dead the half blind man needs to get as far away fom there as possible.

[fab99]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

The way you manipulate words is really annoying...

Could you please put yourself in the 2 Burmese shoes just for a minute and guess how you would feel if (I say if) you were innocent?

If you had been tortured to get you to say anything (you would) it would be quite natural to try to recant as soon as you feel safer, having finally proper legal representation and a media coverage which prevents the RTP to resort to the worst methods.

You seem to completely avoid all the unprofessional and even intentionally awful investigating, the way they were interrogated with no witness, and no legal representation, the unqualified translator...

You really think it is normal and fair practice to make you sign a confession in a language you can't read? I have a few papers I d like you to sign for me in Greek, trust me, they are just holiday cards.

How can you have not a doubt these two are the killers when you read the information we have all read so far?

Would you accept that investigation as strong if you were more connected to the Burmese than to the other suspects?

[newcomer71]

I am sure that many will not like my post but: what's the point to reply to trolling, baiting attention seekers?

Sure cannot put reason in them because their only target is to get attention, and make other posters nervous, maybe insult them and get suspended.

And also I feel they sure have all the interest top feel important to be the one to make the topic trashed and blocked.

So, let them tell their "ideas" and just write your ideas without replying or implying them. Simple as that.

I see that replying to them, often calls new trolls in the system, so (but that's just my opinion) I'd avoid.

To stay in topic, I am very glad of how the defense is scoring points (many own goals from the prosecution, but star scores from the first witness for the defense), though as seen as the whole system in Thailand is so corrupt and devious I won't feel satisfied till the Court will give their judgement.

[fab99]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

You said you are not a lawyer but honestly tell me, do you think the confession should be accepted as relevant given the allegations of torture, the absence of legal representation during the interrogation, the unqualified translator, the confession in thai and not Burmese and the absence of recordings? Just one of these would make it unusable in the majority of courts.

And a real lawyer in this thread quoted the thai law saying the reconstitution of the crime can't be used in court after a confession has been recanted. So the tragically comical reconstitution where the two Burmese had to be told at each step what to do and where to be probably shouldn't even be mentioned.

[Eirene]

@jaidam - That report regarding the cleaner that initially found the bodies was denied by Andy Hall and his colleagues on or about August 1st. This report was first posted on CSIMM which later removed it.

[BritTim]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

You are correct. Since according to Thai criminal law the confessions and reenactment are not valid evidence, it is shocking that the prosecution was allowed to present it. Are you as incensed as I am that it was? Even if the judges disregard it in their final verdict, it smacks of media manipulation to even suggest it is relevant.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Thumbs up for Dr Pornthip, looks like a typical loony scientist but proved her honesty, technical skills, knowledge and impartiality at the trial for the sake of real justice.

No doubt a brilliant woman. But you might find this interesting to.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437793064

[fab99]

What sickens me the most is the possibility that justice will never be done, just like the Kirsty Jones case in Chiang Mai.

The case was not impossible to solve, it is a small island, there was DNA, CCTV... in normal circumstances it would have been possible to find solid suspects.

The people that took part in this were not human in my opinion, they were predators (I regret seeing the pictures, this can't be undone) and knowing there is a good chance they are outside, free to do it again is intolerable.

Some people here seem to have such a lack of empathy, it kind of depresses me...

I know I, along with everyone I know, won't go to this hell of a place for sure, if not for my own safety, also in memory and respect to these two young promising innocent persons that had to go through such terrible last moments.

So I do my small part and prevent all the people I know coming to Thailand to go near this place, I don't want to put them at risk and I don't want for the people who had any involvement in this affair, direct or indirect ,to make a single baht from as many people as possible.

[jaidam]

@jaidam - That report regarding the cleaner that initially found the bodies was denied by Andy Hall and his colleagues on or about August 1st. This report was first posted on CSIMM which later removed it.

Thank you Eirene for clarifying that. That there were 2 chopped up Asian bodies found the same time as the trial kicked off is undisputable. That one of them was a female beach comber is also fact. But yes, there is no confirmed report by police/officialdom that this dead beachcomber was one and the same that first discovered the bodies. If it was the same person would you expect Koh Tao police to confirm this amazing coincidence or bury the news amid a flurry of obfuscation?

There are not hundreds of disabled early morning beach plastic re-cyclers. To my knowledge there used to be 2, now there is 1.

[saminoz]

Stealth could you pm me some other sites to read about this case? My searchs come up in vain...one off blog posts without near the in depth analysis or forum conversations like we have here. Thank you.

The quote comes from an Andrew Drummond article, not particularly reliable source in my opinion.

Having said that if there is clear evidence that the DNA analysis was tampered with then that's significant, but simply saying that some data is incorrect, or other was edited without giving a context or explaining relevance is not much to hang a hat on.

For example, from what I know, the date of death in David Miller's autopsy report was incorrect, obviously that would be a clerical error since there is no reasonable explanation of why the person writing the report would fake that. Of course that could easily be spun as "We have found significant errors in the autopsy report" in order to discredit the results of the autopsy; while the statement would be true it does not follow that the results of the autopsy are in error.

As the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Setting aside the fact that you have zero credibility here due to your well known false written reporting on the internet, your final sentence rings true and thus you must be a very, very dangerous guy.

In such a high profile double murder case, I would think that ANY errors in such things as the autopsy and investigation raises serious questions about the capabilities and professionalism of the investigators and medical teams.

It has been amply demonstrated that the handling of the case and, in particular, the forensics were deeply, shockingly flawed from the outset. From the handling of the bodies, the non-forensic handling of the clothing and other pieces of evidence at the scene (where ARE Hannah's skirt and top, by the way?) through to the criminal lack of follow up on the events preceding the murders and the extremely suspicious diversion of attention from the two suspects that the Police initially identified as being involved.

Now during the trial, the prosecution are only offering statements of a supposed match in the DNA and the insulting "testimony" from supposed "top" policemen in charge of the case. The lead policeman simply stating "I don't know" when it should be safe to assume that he ought to know everything about this case.

It totally points to a cover up and it's patently obvious that the RTP were not prepared for such blow back and having their statements and fiction questioned so openly and globally.

This raises the question, still, of why you and the shills still try to deflect opinion on this case in this (and God knows how many other forums) and what your vested interests are in having the B2 found guilty when it seems clear to, maybe 99% of the readers here that the B2, if not completely innocent, are at best peripherally involved.

[fritzzz25]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

You aren't "a Thai Lawyer or Judge", so what are you then? Based on your grammar above, I am going to say it isn't a English professor.

"but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure." - so you are saying you were in the court room and heard all of the evidence given and understand every word spoken in the language used at the trial?

As for confessions in court in Thailand - you could have saved "face" by going to google and typing "criminal confessions Thailand". How about you go do it now, read up on it, then get back to us. Actually, here is the link https://www.google.com/search?q=criminal+confessions+thailand&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=2Rr2Vc6WBMzZoASY9rzoDQ

[Darkknight666]

The problem i have with it is if he had made the trip from Koh Tao surely he would be too tired to being going to classes first thing?

That's only an slight issue if you believe that the CCTV, which was provided weeks later by him, has not had the time stamp doctored.

It holds no water just like the staged DNA testing. If anything, the way both of these were handled just adds more suspicion onto him.

The DNA testing circus was farcical. The CCTV not so much. They gave access to all the footage from all cameras to Thai PBS for the period from 2:00 am until he was seen leaving (on at least 3 cameras) around 9:30 am. The CCTV does not show him entering during that time period. It has been suggested that he might have used the fire escape to enter, but there is a camera in the corridor outside his room that was also checked. The CCTV might have been faked but, if so, either someone very senior at Thai PBS is involved in the cover up, or the falsification was very well done.

I can imagine many reasons Nomsod would not have wanted to publicize the footage of him entering his room. My guess, if the CCTV is genuine, is that he entered his room with a girl, and neither this girl, nor his steady girlfriend, would have been impressed.

I'm 50 - 50 on NS. I would like to have seen a verified DNA to reassure me rather than the circus in Bangkok, but regards the CCTV that was analysed by Thai PBS. As far as I'm concerned this carries no weight or proof whatsoever.

CCTV evidence can only be credible if the actual source has been verified from where it was taken and that the time stamp is the original one. There are plenty of UK police guidance documents on this do a Google for "uk police cctv evidence collection and authentication" and you'll find numerous official documents and guidance on the use of cctv as evidence in court and the authentication process it needs to go through first.

Its been demonstrated just how easy it is to change the time stamp for the whole stored cctv recording in situ of the hard drive on another site on that particular model of cctv, it then just needs to be handed to whoever wants it and it appears genuine but in fact has been changed to whatever dates or time were wanted.

So this means we cant trust anything the Thai police in Bangkok shows us as CCTV evidence, who else is going to verify they did their job ? I agree with the theory that there could be other reasons for NS not want to publizie the footage of him entering his room, maybe because of a love affair. But thats just more speculations of course.

So what it boils down to is that NS has been cleared but still it's not possible to clear him because of the reputation of the police .

Actually, what it comes down to is, Look like a cheater to my girlfriend, or look like a raping murderer to the rest of the world... Hmm...I'll take pissing off the girlfriend. You seem to only pop up to defend Warot, there Balo.... Not very objective.

[saminoz]

Beach cleaners discovered the Britons’ naked bodies 20 m apart by rocks on idyllic Sairee Beach on Sept. 15. A bloodstained garden hoe, commonly used by beachside bars to dig fire pits, was found nearby and has now been confirmed as the principal murder weapon, along with a wooden club.

The existence of two weapons has “made us believe that there are at least two attackers,” the deputy national police chief, Police General Somyot Pumpanmuang, told reporters Monday.

http://time.com/3420299/thailand-koh-tao-murder-hannah-witheridge-david-miller/

Wooden club in existence?

I'm afraid it's just another piece of "inconvenient" evidence to go missing, along with Hannah's clothing etc. etc.

[fireplay]

Further Discussion on Confessions since there in no more room to apply on my link.

I am not a Thai Lawyer or Judge so I can't debate Thai Law with certainty, but I can tell you this as this is what I know for sure.

The Prosecutor has spend days at this Trial having Witnesses on the Stand including a Senior Police Officer who sat in on the Interrogations, and Interpreter (qualified or not) testifying about the 2 Accused Confessions. To the point of even bringing in the Crime Reenactment Photos to show the court. The Defense spent their first day of the Trial with Lin on the Stand Testifying how he was forced into his Confession.

It seems to me that if there Confession was so meaningless, and don't count in the court, why would both sides go through so much trouble talking about it in Court?

The questioned I posed was who normally would have more weight in a Court of Law. An a Accused Rapist and Murdered who has already proved to the Court he has lied when he recanted his Confession (for whatever reason), or a slew of Officials including a High Ranking Police Officer, who all have no proven reason to lie and in doing so would Perjury themselves and open them up to further Prosecution?

Are you really that ignorant when it comes to cops in Thailand lying? The don't give a damn about perjury, as it's almost never, ever applied to them. So they will lie their asses off about anything and everything that will make sure they get the conviction they want. I know of a case where a Lt. Colonel and 2 Snr Sgt Majors lied in count about "definitely seeing" a suspect "with a gun in his hand" at a crime scene, and it later came out that the "suspect" wasn't even in the country at the time of the crime! Why did they lie? The crime was against a hi-so who wanted a conviction, no matter what, and paid well for it.

The husband of my wife's favorite cousin is a Snr. Sgt. Major, and he's joked with me about how they lie all the time to get someone convicted. He's admitted to me that some cases pay very well for the lies they tell.

You say you aren't a lawyer or a judge. Apparently you're not up to speed on the complete and total corruption of the Thai police force either. I've been married for 7 years, and through that marriage/family have met a few dozen cops, and I can tell you now, I have yet to meet a single one that is even remotely honest. Great bunch of guys to party with, but honest? Oh, please, give me a break!

Amazing response man well played.

[fish fingers]

So this beach cleaner who discovered the bodies is dead.. are we 100% sure ?

If not .. its just a rumour, nothing more.

[thailandchilli]

Amnesty International making a powerful and disturbing statement on scapegoats in Thailand, watch it, its not nice

[GOLDBUGGY]

Thumbs up for Dr Pornthip, looks like a typical loony scientist but proved her honesty, technical skills, knowledge and impartiality at the trial for the sake of real justice.

Golden Rule in Life..

"Don't Judge A Book By Its Cover"

Some of the worlds Genius's don't look like it..

Stephen-Hawking’s-Black-Hole-Only-Exists-in-His-Own-Life.jpg

Or Rapists and Murders either.

[boomerangutang]

Amnesty International making a powerful and disturbing statement on scapegoats in Thailand, watch it, its not nice

Excellent graphic!

[StealthEnergiser]

I think this is the first officer that testified

KOH SAMUI – The Koh Tao Police Officer in charge of the investigation into the brutal killing of two Britons on Koh Tao appeared for the first time in court Wednesday to be questioned by a lawyer for the two Myanmar migrants facing murder charges.

The testimony of Jakkrapan Kaewkhao, an officer at Koh Tao police station who was called as the first witness for the prosecution, capped the first day of the closely watched trial at the Koh Samui Provincial Court in Surat Thani province.

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/koh-tao-murder-trial-begins-police-questioned-by-lawyers.html

[GOLDBUGGY]

2) The Mobile Phone purportedly belonging to David.

Every time I see this brought up I always see that the most important part of this is always missing. Let's go back down memory lane here at start at the beginning.

Police knew from talking to David's friends and family that David Mobile Phone was missing, but they chose not to disclose this to the public. Probably in hopes of catching the murderer with it red handed. That means that David did not tell his friends, including Chris, who last saw him that night around 1 am, that he lost his phone. So there is a very good likelihood he had it on him when he left and ended up at the AC bar at 1:30 am.

So why is it that since the Police knew the Mobile Phone was missing almost on the day of the murders that it was not discovered for 2 weeks later? How did they know where to look even?

It is because after the confessions (forced or otherwise) the accused were asked about David's Mobile Phone. It is then alleged that one of the accused (Win I think) told them he had given this to a friend. When this friend was approached by police he told them he discarded this smashed up phone as he became suspicious of it, but other reports say they did it because it didn't work on the Island. Either way he showed them where he discarded it and thus leading to the discovery of this Mobile Phone.

Once the accused retracted their confession they later claimed they found this Mobile Phone on the Beach. Keep in mind that by then the Prosecution had a witness saying they gave it to him. But how plausible is that? Let's see!

If David did lose his Mobile Phone on the beach it had to have been that night as he never reported missing to his friends. Since David was seen on CCTV at a different bar, when it was closed, and a 7-11 later, and before he went to the AC Bar, he did not take the beach path to get their as there are no CCTV Cameras their, as we all know. So he would have had to have lost his phone somewhere along the beach from the AC Bar to the Rocks, and somewhere close the the 2 accused for them to find it in the dark.

So how is it that both of the accused claimed they did not see them. Even if they were swimming how far out in the ocean and away from the shore can 2 guys who are 5 feet tall go? To not notice someone walk by maybe only yards away, with all there clothes their and a guitar hid in the bush someplace. Or sitting on the log playing the guitar and someone walking by would almost have to trip over them.

If they did find the Mobile Phone on the beach how is it they knew it was David Miller's Mobile Phone when asked by the Police, and was directed to its location, and yet they claim they never saw anyone? Why would you give something so valuable to a friend without compensation and for no known good reason to do so, other than possibly trying to hide you had it? Wouldn't trying to sell it and send money home make more sense, if it was found and not stolen? Why would you destroy a Mobile Phone just because it didn't work for you first time. Why would David walk around with a Mobile Phone that wasn't working their?

Sorry but it is no very plausible to me they found it.

Now the next and final point.

As I said before, it beggars belief that the police would just happen to pick two scapegoats that just happened to had found that phone on that night.

It also seems very, shall we say, odd that the people clamoring for the truth don't seem to be interested in getting to the bottom of that issue.

Yeah and to prove this they said someone from Burma told them all about it but he now seems to have disappeared. But again the nice policeman said it so it must be true.

No one has stood up in court and testified that the phone was found behind the Burmese room or the phone belonged to David. If that is all the proof you need then the sooner you end up in jail for something you didn't do the better.

Actually karma must have something a lot worse in store than you being in jail.

The Migrant Worker has already given a sworn testimony in court way back in October or November in front of a judge and the defense team, who could cross examine him if they so choose. So he doesn't have to be sitting in the court a year later to do that again. His statement is Evidence! His whereabouts now has no relevance to this case anymore. The 2 Accused also admitted they gave this mobile Phone to him. If you want to call them liars I won't argue that point.

As to the phone being planted, as suggested by someone else, that is a ridiculous statement that has zero possibility. The accused admitted they gave this mobile phone to a friend and he showed them where he put it, and gave testimony in court to that extent. There was no need to plant anything except more flowers.

Was the Mobile Phone David Millers? There goes that no proof again. The High Ranking Police Officer did not say he could not confirm this was David's Mobile Phone. This was what the Defense told the media afterwards. Or was it Andy?

What he said he tried to get clarification from the UK (Police I suppose) as to if this was David's Phone or not. They refused to supply him with written documentation because the UK is not allowed to provide such evidence in a Murder Trial which has the Death Penalty. He provide documentation to justify his excuse with written requests and replies.

What he also said is that he talked to them and they verbally verified it was David Miller's Mobile Phone even if they would not give written documentation to that effect. No! That is not solid evidence! But it is still evidence none the less. A sworn statement in court by and Eye Witness, such as the case with this High Ranking Police Officer, is in fact considered evidence until proven otherwise. Like it or not!

[phuketandsee]

I am sure that many will not like my post but: what's the point to reply to trolling, baiting attention seekers?

Sure cannot put reason in them because their only target is to get attention, and make other posters nervous, maybe insult them and get suspended.

And also I feel they sure have all the interest top feel important to be the one to make the topic trashed and blocked.

So, let them tell their "ideas" and just write your ideas without replying or implying them. Simple as that.

I see that replying to them, often calls new trolls in the system, so (but that's just my opinion) I'd avoid.

To stay in topic, I am very glad of how the defense is scoring points (many own goals from the prosecution, but star scores from the first witness for the defense), though as seen as the whole system in Thailand is so corrupt and devious I won't feel satisfied till the Court will give their judgement.

Sadly you, and many of us, will not feel satisfied when the court gives it's judgement, even if the B2 are acquitted:

1. How was it ever allowed to get this far? At least we all know the answer to this now.

2. Without Andy Hall and social media the B2 would be toast already.

3. The true perps are free to do it again. And they will be more careful next time.

4. The RTP may have learned how to better cover up their incompetence/complicity.

5. Hannah and David are dead because the perps knew the system here would allow them to get away with it.

The British government really has a responsibility now. Ok, they can't intervene in the Thai "justice" system but they absolutely must warn visitors of the extreme risks that that system subjects them to. Maybe then a sliver of good will come from this.

Edited September 14, 2015 by phuketandsee