Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[boomerangutang]

Is this a Salem witch trial? No. But just for fun, tell me some reasons why it's not, other than it's not taking place in Salem in the 17th century.

Andy Hall Tweeted:-
I understand 1 judge rotated in annual reshuffle by 30th Sept & been replaced, another judge busy today but back 2mrw

Maybe he left a phone message with the head judge: "um. Sorry, can't get to the court today. Got something pressing to do. The wife is getting her first golf lesson and wants me around as a confidence-builder. ha ha. How're things at the club. See you when I see you. Chok dee, ha ha."

[thailandchilli]

Andy Hall also tweeted:-

defense lawyers told me replacement of 1 judge in this case in annual shuffle is normal practice in Thailand

See?

Too much speculation - as I said before

Oh dear the "I told you so" syndrome.

Its not surprising there's speculation in this case, after all the lack of facts being offered by the RTP are almost non existent, the reasons as to why the prosecution took this case on in the first place is baffling and why the whole trial is even still in process when there has been evident perjury and hidden evidence is mind boggling. Total sham and while its like this speculation is unavoidable, natural and will continue.

We now have some clarity on the judges being changed but that does not make it right does it.

[stephenterry]

Andy Hall also tweeted:-

defense lawyers told me replacement of 1 judge in this case in annual shuffle is normal practice in Thailand

See?

Too much speculation - as I said before

Oh dear the "I told you so" syndrome.

Its not surprising there's speculation in this case, after all the lack of facts being offered by the RTP are almost non existent, the reasons as to why the prosecution took this case on in the first place is baffling and why the whole trial is even still in process when there has been evident perjury and hidden evidence is mind boggling. Total sham and while its like this speculation is unavoidable, natural and will continue.

We now have some clarity on the judges being changed but that does not make it right does it.

I recollect reading, perhaps in a newspaper article, that despite the imperfections of the judicial process, the judges, more often than not, reach the 'correct unbiased' verdict. Take that with a pinch of salt, but a change of junior judges at this juncture when the two accused are relaying their torture experiences is a 'stand alone' issue without much impact on what's gone before. Either the lead judge believes their account or he does not.

As the verdict rationale has to be explained in writing by the judges, it reduces the risk of important evidence being missed or overlooked. Still imperfect, but that's how it works here.

As to whether it's right or not is more importantly why this case was accepted by the prosecution without any substantiated evidence to convict the accused apart from hearsay and RTP assertions that they did it. Well we all know why, don't we? The authorities had to find someone to take the hit without ruffling the status quo of Thailand protectionism.

[Loeilad]

There have been allegations that this kind of deal is quite common in the Thai legal process.

To "protect" an important person or for general "harmony" a third party is persuaded on way or another to take the blame for a crime. They are told that they will face a minimal sentence and treated well in prison, their family will be looked after and they will come out the other end financially better of.

Te result being the reputation of "VIPs" is left intact, and the status quo remains and some poor people are eventually better off.

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Wai Phyo (defendant 2 Koh Tao case) about to take witness stand Samui court to complete testimony/cross examination

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Wai Phyo last defense witness and expected to be last witness of Koh Tao murder trial that is scheduled to wrap up after this final session

Edited October 11, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[kannot]

There have been allegations that this kind of deal is quite common in the Thai legal process.

To "protect" an important person or for general "harmony" a third party is persuaded on way or another to take the blame for a crime. They are told that they will face a minimal sentence and treated well in prison, their family will be looked after and they will come out the other end financially better of.

Te result being the reputation of "VIPs" is left intact, and the status quo remains and some poor people are eventually better off.

which is great right up until the next lot of butchery

[ronthai]

Skapegoats = Guilty, until "proven" guilty, verdict GUILTY

[rocketron57]

To save me scrolling back through the posts can someone tell me when the verdict is due please.

[phuketandsee]

To save me scrolling back through the posts can someone tell me when the verdict is due please.

Not expected until November or December I believe

[SuwadeeS]

Why does the court not order to use a polygraph, for both sides?

I would clear the case within minutes. It would show who is telling the truth.

The two guys convicted, or the RTP.

It is that easy. or.... maybe, they do not want the truth come to public.

[MockingJay]

One of the darkest chapters in Thai history! If I were father to Hannah or David, Nom Sod and his cronies would slowly dissolve in an acid filled hole, dug in an abandoned garage somewhere in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

Edited October 11, 2015 by MockingJay

[Srikcir]

Maybe the Junta can make a deal with its Chinese partners for a lie detector - allegedly employed against Falun Gong practitioners in China’s labour camps, detention centers, and mental hospitals.

[Linky]

Why does the court not order to use a polygraph, for both sides?

I would clear the case within minutes. It would show who is telling the truth.

The two guys convicted, or the RTP.

It is that easy. or.... maybe, they do not want the truth come to public.

Because polygraph is proven to be unreliable. Very very few courts allow them.

[Maggusoil]

According to a poster on Andy Hall's facebook, Heidi Anna, who has been in court every day during the Koh Tao hearings, there has been several changes of judges:

26 December 2014 - 3 judges

30 April 2015 - 1 judge from 26 December hearing, plus 2 new ones

8 July 2015 - "2nd chair" judge from 30 April hearing becomes lead judge, plus 2 new ones

8 July until 25 September 2015 - Same three judges

10 October 2015 - Same lead judge from 8 July hearing, plus 2 new ones in 2nd and 3rd chair.

I don't think this can be explained by an "annual reshuffle". Where is the continuity?

This is not wonderful. However, the lead judge has been the same throughout the trial. My impression is that the other two judges are just glorified assistants and not important to the eventual verdict. The lead judge will have been the one who allowed the trial to progress without a long delay by forgoing a weekend (very unusual in the Thai court system). Call me naive but, on this count, I am not overly concerned.

Maybe I am wrong but this does bring up an important part of Thai law. No juries in courts. The Magna Carta was probably one of the most important developments in law in the west. What became the West, Western culture, the cohesion of the most successful of recent civlisations.

All this resting on the decision of one man? Not a good feeling.

Juries consisting of 12 good people, are essential in law. So essential Western countries are now trying to phase them out and defying their own constitutional basis. Trust the judge. No thanks.

Juries are also able to change laws. Jury nullification is an important part of Magna Carta.

I cannot believe these guys have been treated fairly. Is that going to improve?

[dcpo]

Why does the court not order to use a polygraph, for both sides?

I would clear the case within minutes. It would show who is telling the truth.

The two guys convicted, or the RTP.

It is that easy. or.... maybe, they do not want the truth come to public.

Hopefully because they know that polygraphs are based substantially on pseudoscience.

[StealthEnergiser]

TAT thailand would be fully aware of this case I am surprised tourists coming to Thailand have not been asking questions on TAT Facebook pages like what are they doing about tourists safety on the islands ?

after all Dr Pornthip has reported her findings to the media that DNA on the murder weapon did not belong to to the B2.

TAT : It is an extremely likely that the killer or killers are still that island what have done about it ????????????????????

TAT :Have you asked the police to start an investigation of who belongs to the unknown DNA on the Murder weapon ?????????????????

TAT : What steps have you taken to ensure tourists safety ????????????????

Edited October 11, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[maoro2013]

How come the second defendants name seem to change occasionally?

[tajtom]

And the government let this continue LOL

This is the Thainess right.

Protect Thais at all costs and let them get away with murder

Yes the RTP are very capable of all said here and this has become a joke and globaly no one is supporting it

What can you do as these people say this is our country and if you come here its at your own risk. But hey if we come to your home land where treated equal

Thailand has many problems and they can be fixed although they do not want to by the looks of things

Who knows why this trial is even still going RTP are WRONG

They must drop charges

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[12DrinkMore]

According to a poster on Andy Hall's facebook, Heidi Anna, who has been in court every day during the Koh Tao hearings, there has been several changes of judges:

26 December 2014 - 3 judges

30 April 2015 - 1 judge from 26 December hearing, plus 2 new ones

8 July 2015 - "2nd chair" judge from 30 April hearing becomes lead judge, plus 2 new ones

8 July until 25 September 2015 - Same three judges

10 October 2015 - Same lead judge from 8 July hearing, plus 2 new ones in 2nd and 3rd chair.

I don't think this can be explained by an "annual reshuffle". Where is the continuity?

This is not wonderful. However, the lead judge has been the same throughout the trial. My impression is that the other two judges are just glorified assistants and not important to the eventual verdict. The lead judge will have been the one who allowed the trial to progress without a long delay by forgoing a weekend (very unusual in the Thai court system). Call me naive but, on this count, I am not overly concerned.

Maybe I am wrong but this does bring up an important part of Thai law. No juries in courts. The Magna Carta was probably one of the most important developments in law in the west. What became the West, Western culture, the cohesion of the most successful of recent civlisations.

All this resting on the decision of one man? Not a good feeling.

Juries consisting of 12 good people, are essential in law. So essential Western countries are now trying to phase them out and defying their own constitutional basis. Trust the judge. No thanks.

Juries are also able to change laws. Jury nullification is an important part of Magna Carta.

I cannot believe these guys have been treated fairly. Is that going to improve?

All members of TV should be excluded from any jury service, due to the inability to follow a topic, jumping to a verdict after reading a headline, inventing stories, dissemination of inaccurate information, going way off topic and general unreasonable prejudice.

[tajtom]

This has spiraled out of control and now Prayuth must step in and admitt wromg doing by the RTP

In fact the lead investigator RTP must take the punishment for allowing forced confessions and his cronies to operate there own Thai justice.

He should be removed and fired

These 2 acquited and sent home

Clean up time RTP your acts and stories are old news. we are all on to you. Do you know you have detroyed your countrys economy in the process

Good Luck

[RWA]

Why does the court not order to use a polygraph, for both sides?

I would clear the case within minutes. It would show who is telling the truth.

The two guys convicted, or the RTP.

It is that easy. or.... maybe, they do not want the truth come to public.

Do you speak Thai?!!!

That polygraph in Thai language would need to have also the Thai mentality!

Without that, one hardly can comprehend Thai language, believe me.

Even a very straight forward, simple, brief question rarely gets a clear, sensible answer that can't be understood any other way but the right way.

There's no clarity and whatsoever question/answer exchange takes ages to explain what is it all about and what do you really want to find out.

Not to mention there's a world of difference as to how well or no educated people are you talking to ...

[HerbalEd]

Was there actually any evidence against these 2 in the trial? Apart from the fact they were on the beach that night?

They also drank beer, smoked, played guitar, and rode a motorcycle. Thus far, undisputed.

Disputed:

• Once upon a time, the RTP had semen samples taken from Hannah. DNA from the semen samples matched DNA from the Burmese. The semen samples are now "used up" and cannot be directly retested.
• The Burmese freely confessed to the crimes and demonstrated what they did in a reenactment. Strangely enough, the confessions and reenactments do not tally with what little physical evidence was made available to the court. The Burmese subsequently withdrew their confessions, saying they were extracted under torture and threats.

That is about it.

"The Burmese freely confessed ..." Well, how "freely" is the question here, isn't it? If the police did indeed torture and threaten these young boys, would anyone here be surprised?

[RWA]

One of the darkest chapters in Thai history! If I were father to Hannah or David, Nom Sod and his cronies would slowly dissolve in an acid filled hole, dug in an abandoned garage somewhere in Nakhon Si Thammarat.

YES!!!

with full respect and empathy, I can't understand the Hannah's family attitude ...

Can't imagine myself in such a situation, but I know, there won't be one stone left unturned and my voice will be heard roaring across the oceans till the real culprit would suffer as my girl did ...

[StealthEnergiser]

One thing for sure...

You could write a blockbuster film script based on the trail worthy of many Oscars, just change the names of people and places to fictitious ones...

I hope they add this disgraceful saga as another exhibit at the Corruption museum starting off with Prayuth warning girls for wearing bikini's in thailand and the end part showing the real killers and all people involved in covering for them behind bars .

[ronwparker]

It has been so obvious to most people internationally that these 2 little Burmese guys have been wrongly imprisoned and tortured to extract "confession" by the RTP who are a disgrace.

They will almost certainly get off but one never knows in Thailand

[Linky]

I know that if they were my children killed I would not care what the court verdict would be. I would have private detectives do some work and then I would finish it off with the real murderers. I would not care about the consequences

[StealthEnergiser]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Koh Samui court breaks for lunch as accused no. 2 Wai Phyo's testimony continues into the afternoon/evening on final day of Koh Tao trial.

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Wai Phyo's testimony today explained his normal life after the murders on Koh Tao, leaving Koh Tao to find new work & his arrest in Surat.

• Follow

  Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

  Wai Phyo testimony then re: physical/mental abuse/torture he alleged after arrest in Surat, his denial of guilt & eventual forced confession

Edited October 11, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[elgordo38]

Andy Hall also tweeted:-

defense lawyers told me replacement of 1 judge in this case in annual shuffle is normal practice in Thailand

See?

Too much speculation - as I said before

So does this important trial start over to bring the new judge up to speed?

[joebrown]

Because of the almost non-existent reliable trial reporting, as demanded by PM to protect tourism and police, I find it difficult to understand what's actually happened or been said. What I find curious and worrying is that when the B2 testify, they appear to be cross-examined solely by the defence lawyer(s), with no counter questioning by the prosecution. It seems the prosecution are content with 'the police said it, so we accept it", so we won't cross-examine, and waste the judges' valuable time ie, a guilty verdict has been pre-ordained.

AH's tweets show great emphasis is being placed on the confessions obtained under duress, and the accuseds' lowly immigration status in KT. As expected, the police deny the use of torture/brutality during the interrogation process. Once again, it's a case of 'you say that, but we say this', and without substantive evidence either way, the presiding judge has to make a decision, based on what is often 'hearsay'.

Up to now, the police/prosecution have put forward nothing by way of verifiable evidence to convict the B2, but more disturbing to me is that the defence have had to rely mainly on discrediting the police investigation/evidence/interrogation process, without being able to score a 'whammy' with totally new verifiable evidence to quash the prosecution's case. I only hope now that the contents of the undisclosed UK Autopsy report on Hannah are a 'nightmare' for the trial judge(s), if they've even bothered to read it.

Edited October 11, 2015 by joebrown