I closed my business in thailand and saw surprising effects....

[freebyrd]

Marco, I read online that the internet connections in Cambodia are much slower than in Thailand, what is your experience please? Also can you tell me a little more about how living in Cambodia is compared to Thailand? I know one businessman from the US who lives there with his Thai girlfriend and they both prefer it over Thailand.

I've lived in Cambodia 10 years. It's a much easier place to be than Thailand in many respects, as long as you're not too concerned about being a taxi ride away from the nearest hospital that is. Personally I wouldn't live in Thailand again if I was paid to.

That said, as always, one man's meat.....

Thank you for your input, how's the internet there and can you get True TV there? Cheers....

Contrary to popular belief, the internet is just fine. I've never had any real problems at work or home. True TV? Not really sure on that one. There are enough channels to keep me happy, but I'm not the sports buff I once was. Ultimately, Cambodia, like anywhere is what you make it, but best give it a trial for 6 months or so before you commit.

[55Jay]

I understand why you left Thailand and went to Cambodia, marcofunny. Its impossible to get anything to work here in Thailand with their red tape and corruption. I wouldnt invest one satang here ...

and for some odd reason many expats here simply refuse to acknowledge that expats, visa runners etc. contribute to the economy of Thailand ... strange people indeed

Hear hear! A couple of years ago I was at a CFO conference and we tried to work out how many tax payers there were in Thailand? Strange as it may seem the numbers came out to about 60,000, an odd number when you consider that there're about 60,000 WP issued every year! Odd that!

And after we sussed that one out, we did some Jell-O shots and played Beer Pong!

[marcofunny]

I guess the assertion that an illegal business may spur economic activity (or the removal of it may have a negative impact) really isn't all that surprising. Illegal arms sales, drug running, child prostitution, piracy - all these have a stimulative effect on economic growth, at least locally. I wonder how much of Bangkok's night life has been funded by boiler rooms laundering their ill gotten gains? But I'm not sure that they this means these types of activities are good for an organized society. Over the long run, for a successful country you need free markets but also a good legal system ( including the fair implementation of laws).

While I wish the OP well, I don't agree with his approach to business.

it is hypocrisy to claim that all of the so called advanced nations have zero dependency on illegal activities, in Italy for example it is estimated that more then 20% of its GDP relies heavily on illegal trade and any crackdown will cause massive economical collapse, the US imports large number of illegal migrants from neighbor Mexico and states like Texas or California depends heavily upon them, the CIA got dozen of affairs where it was accused of drug trafficking inside the country therefore I don't see how Thailand could do better than those advanced western nations.

my former business did not conduct any business within Thailand and it didn't broke any Thai laws nor it broke the laws of the country of jurisdiction, it brought huge sums of foreign currency to the local Thai economy and the Thai SET, the local authorities informed me that I could continue to run my business but without any foreigners and they wouldn't bother my Thai staff but they were not okay with the foreign ones and what piss me off is their complete racist attitude of refusing to share any cake with any foreigners, it is indeed a joke to think that there is free lunch in Thailand and the local authorities does not share profits with businesses be it direct or indirect taxes.

in Cambodia I was welcomed with flowers and gifts, paperwork is not important for them as long as there is cash flowing in.

hiring temp foreigners is very easy here and does not bother them at all as long as fees and taxes are paid.

Edited September 14, 2015 by marcofunny

[Soutpeel]

I guess the assertion that an illegal business may spur economic activity (or the removal of it may have a negative impact) really isn't all that surprising. Illegal arms sales, drug running, child prostitution, piracy - all these have a stimulative effect on economic growth, at least locally. I wonder how much of Bangkok's night life has been funded by boiler rooms laundering their ill gotten gains? But I'm not sure that they this means these types of activities are good for an organized society. Over the long run, for a successful country you need free markets but also a good legal system ( including the fair implementation of laws).

While I wish the OP well, I don't agree with his approach to business.

it is hypocrisy to claim that all of the so called advanced nations have zero dependency on illegal activities, in Italy for example it is estimated that more then 20% of its GDP relies heavily on illegal trade and any crackdown will cause massive economical collapse.

the US imports large number of illegal migrants from neighbor Mexico and states like Texas or California depends heavily upon them, the CIA got dozen of affairs where it was accused of drug trafficking inside the country.

my former business did not conduct any business within Thailand and it didn't broke any Thai laws nor it broke the laws of the country of jurisdiction, it brought huge sums of foreign currency to the local Thai economy and the Thai SET, the local authorities informed that I could continue to run my business but without any foreigners and they wouldn't bother my Thai staff but they were not okay with the foreign ones and what piss me off is their complete racist attitude of refusing to share any cake with any foreigners.

in Cambodia I was welcomed with flowers and gifts, paperwork is not important for them as long as there is cash flowing in.

hiring temp foreigners is very easy here and does not bother them at all as long as fees and taxes are paid.

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

Edited September 14, 2015 by Soutpeel

[marcofunny]

Will be nice if info like this one get in the hands of the Thai PM. I think that foreigners do not have any representation in the governments, and it is necessary, to foreigners and to the government.

my suggestion to the government is to instate a working holiday program similar to the ones implemented in Japan Australia, NZ and Canada it will help stimulate the local economy and create dozens of jobs for Thai nationals.

the Japanese program imposes quotas on each country and allows the workers to move freely between different companies without complicated paperwork.

Edited September 14, 2015 by marcofunny

[Sviss Geez]

Everyone in business here should ask themselves the question what happens if America goes to war with China and Thailand sides with the later?

No-one needs to ask such a ridiculous question.

[ozyjon]

Wow, are my eyes wide open now.

[Sviss Geez]

Why persecute marcofunny when there are millions of Thai's in Thailand that are doing the same or at greater Baht amounts!

Just look at the Luxury car market as an example of Thai cheating the system.

10,000+ new vehicles sold over 3,000,000 Baht per year yet there are less than 2,400 Thai tax payers paying 3,000,000 baht a year in tax!

Who are the real cheats or criminals?

"I could be just as "clever" as you and avoid paying the 35% tax I pay here in Thailand. Somehow - I just don't fancy the life of a criminal!"

Amazing Thailand

How does the comparison between the number of cars being sold here each year at a certain price and the number of tax payers in a certain category become an example of Thais cheating the system?

Do you have access to all the tax-payers records here which enables you to distinguish between Thai tax-payers and non-Thais?

I think the chances of you being as clever as anyone else is fairly remote.

[marcofunny]

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

it is not hard or complicated to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

Edited September 14, 2015 by marcofunny

[Soutpeel]

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

it is not hard to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

You haven't answered the question was your company legally registered as a legal entity stop changing the subject these are simple yes/no questions I was asking

[Soutpeel]

Will be nice if info like this one get in the hands of the Thai PM. I think that foreigners do not have any representation in the governments, and it is necessary, to foreigners and to the government.

my suggestion to the government is to instate a working holiday program similar to the ones implemented in Japan Australia, NZ and Canada it will help stimulate the local economy and create dozens of jobs for Thai nationals.

the Japanese program imposes quotas on each country and allows the workers to move freely between different companies without complicated paperwork.

There is already a working visa program between Aussie and Thailand

[marcofunny]

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

it is not hard to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

You haven't answered the question was your company legally registered as a legal entity stop changing the subject these are simple yes/no questions I was asking

in order to avoid all hassles or xenophobia the company was 100% owned and managed by Thai board of directors

however I was in control of the capital coming in from abroad and therefore I was only an investor.

[Don Mega]

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

it is not hard or complicated to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

The foreigners (temp workers).... why did you not get them work permits?

[Sviss Geez]

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

it is not hard to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

You haven't answered the question was your company legally registered as a legal entity stop changing the subject these are simple yes/no questions I was asking

in order to avoid all hassles or xenophobia the company was 100% owned and managed by Thai board of directors

however I was in control of the capital coming in from abroad and therefore I was only an investor.

So not a registered company. If it was he would have said so, instead he answered an un-asked question.

[marcofunny]

The foreigners (temp workers).... why did you not get them work permits?

because they came to Thailand for short holidays and some of them were interested into earning extra cash while traveling and some of them had valuable IT Skills such as to fix the website temporarily and those particular skills were impossible to be found in Thailand also they did their work as temp from time to time and officially they were volunteering because they did not receive any income inside Thailand.

Edited September 14, 2015 by marcofunny

[Soutpeel]

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

it is not hard to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

You haven't answered the question was your company legally registered as a legal entity stop changing the subject these are simple yes/no questions I was asking

in order to avoid all hassles or xenophobia the company was 100% owned and managed by Thai board of directors

however I was in control of the capital coming in from abroad and therefore I was only an investor.

So it wasn't your business then, so you OP is incorrect and what xenophobic hassles ?

surely if one is fronting the cash one would expect to own 49% of the business which is legally permissible, seems very strange indeed someone would front such large amounts of cash in good faith without a sharehold

Your story is getting stranger by the post

[Don Mega]

The foreigners (temp workers).... why did you not get them work permits?

because they came to Thailand for short holidays and some of them were interested into earning extra cash while traveling and some of them had valuable IT Skills such as to fix the website temporarily and those particular skills were impossible to be found in Thailand also they did their work as temp from time to time and officially they were volunteering because they did not receive any income inside Thailand.

The foreigners (temp workers).... why did you not get them work permits?

[Soutpeel]

The foreigners (temp workers).... why did you not get them work permits?

because they came to Thailand for short holidays and some of them were interested into earning extra cash while traveling and some of them had valuable IT Skills such as to fix the website temporarily and those particular skills were impossible to not to be found in Thailand also they did their work as temp from time to time and officially they were volunteering because they did not receive any income inside Thailand.

And none the less if everything is above board WP can be had even on a temporary basis typically 3 months at a time and these are pretty easy to get and whether they were being paid or not is irrelevant in terms of the definitions

[marcofunny]

So it wasn't your business then, so you OP is incorrect and what xenophobic hassles ?

surely if one is fronting the cash one would expect to own 49% of the business which is legally permissible, seems very strange indeed someone would front such large amounts of cash in good faith without a sharehold

Your story is getting stranger by the post

because I realized from my previously foreign Thai company that a 100% Thai owned company has more advantages and got less scrutinized than the foreign one and pays much less fees and taxes, I don't need to be a shareholder because the business is service based and doesn't sit on any valuable assets it s commission per sale based.

Edited September 14, 2015 by marcofunny

[PattayaPhom]

Was the business legally registered in Thailand as a legal entity such as a Thai limited company ? Did said company pay into the national welfare fund for the odd 20 employees ? Did your foreign staff including yourself have work permits ?

It appears you where employing foreigners illegally so there is one Thai law you broke

it is not hard or complicated to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

How I wish things were made simpler but the legislation is there and should be followed. Yes border jumpers etc do contribute to the economy but probably not as much as a Foreigner that is on the correct salary with a WP paying taxes and social security and also the Thai employees that should also be legal by way of tax payments. If its so easy in Cambodia then you obviously made the right move and may have left a window of opportunity here for someone that in the same business to do it legally. lllegal workers anywhere in the world suppress the wages of those working legally, so in fact you have done Johnny Foreigner working here legally a favour to keep his salary at a decent level.

[Soutpeel]

So it wasn't your business then, so you OP is incorrect and what xenophobic hassles ?

surely if one is fronting the cash one would expect to own 49% of the business which is legally permissible, seems very strange indeed someone would front such large amounts of cash in good faith without a sharehold

Your story is getting stranger by the post

because I realized from my previously foreign Thai company that a 100% Thai owned company has more advantages and got less scrutinized than the foreign one and pay less fees and taxes, I don't need to be a shareholder because the business is service based and doesn't sit on any valuable assets it s commission per sale based.

A 100% owned Thai Ltd company pays exactly the same fees and taxes as one with a foreign shareholder even with a 49% holding there are no additional foreigners fees or taxes

You don't need to be a shareholder but by your own words you invested a lot of money in 100% Thai company with no valuable assets assets and rely on commission only ?

As I said getting stranger and stranger

[marcofunny]

it is not hard or complicated to make a legal facade in Thailand using Thai nominees and front ends dozens of law firms offers different setup based on customer s requirements for very reasonable fees and that is not the issue, the issue is the recent crackdown on foreign temp workers who caused dozens of companies like mine to flee the country.

in Spain and Portugal which they heavily depends upon tourism most of the guest houses and hotel owners employs dozens of foreign temp American, British, Aussie holiday makers and even though the official unemployment rate is around 20% the local government understood that those temp workforce fulfill a vital job positions which helps to stimulate their tourism model, I saw a Chinese women selling soccer tickets to Chinese tourists, DJs entertaining foreign tourists group and bar attendees in guest houses catered to British tourists etc..

in Pattaya how many Cambodians and Burmese are working on the beach and restaurants ?? what will happen if they will deport them ? I don't see how temp workers steal jobs away from permanent ones how many of you holding the WP are willing to work as maid or cleaner or able to speak some foreign exotic language ?

Edited September 14, 2015 by marcofunny

[The Beguiled]

The Beguiled, on 14 Sept 2015 - 14:02, said:

Why persecute marcofunny when there are millions of Thai's in Thailand that are doing the same or at greater Baht amounts!

Just look at the Luxury car market as an example of Thai cheating the system.

10,000+ new vehicles sold over 3,000,000 Baht per year yet there are less than 2,400 Thai tax payers paying 3,000,000 baht a year in tax!

Who are the real cheats or criminals?

"I could be just as "clever" as you and avoid paying the 35% tax I pay here in Thailand. Somehow - I just don't fancy the life of a criminal!"

Amazing Thailand.

____________________________________________________________________

Sviss Geez wrote in reply

"How does the comparison between the number of cars being sold here each year at a certain price and the number of tax payers in a certain category become an example of Thais cheating the system?

Do you have access to all the tax-payers records here which enables you to distinguish between Thai tax-payers and non-Thais?

______________________________________________________

I think the chances of you being as clever as anyone else is fairly remote."

Simple answer to your first question is "if you don't earn it you cannot pay for it"

If you have lived in Thailand for long enough and have had direct access to Thai SME and you asked direct questions of the owners

"How can you afford that 7 series or S Class?"

You may be surprised to hear their answers from

"We have two sets of books" to "I have 17 different bank accounts" or "I not pay full tax as they [government] not smart enough".

In answer to your last point, recently I was looking at buying one of 3 Thai businesses and after seeing the books (one even gave me access to both sets of books!) I was surprised at how easily it is for Thai's to cheat their tax system.

Very sad and it is no wonder that the minority own the majority of this country and don't want outsiders showing/helping them as I believe that many would not survive the "Face" if a Thai government established the equivalent of the IRS or the ATO.

From the the first part of my original post, which are government figures, I was highlighting how in Thailand with 2.7 million SME that only a small proportion pay the fair and correct tax and the majority cheat the system.

So Thai's do cheat their country.

[ggt]

The untenable visa situation in Thailand will continue to keep Thailand guessing where the ex-pat have gone and why they do not love Thailand...

It is a no brainer...many countries have begun to put out the welcome mat for ex-pats, their retirement income and entrepreneurs...

Thailand will likely revamp immigration policies once their economy tanks...

They do appear to shoot themselves in the foot in a knee jerk reaction to immigration...

[marcofunny]

A 100% owned Thai Ltd company pays exactly the same fees and taxes as one with a foreign shareholder even with a 49% holding there are no additional foreigners fees or taxes

You don't need to be a shareholder but by your own words you invested a lot of money in 100% Thai company with no valuable assets assets and rely on commission only ?

As I said getting stranger and stranger

I don't want to delve into more details but my own business experience has confirmed that running a 100% Thai company is far better option than any foreign involvement especially when dealing with unofficial rules, try to rent or buy a product speaking Thai or English and you will notice the price differences, you might have different business domain then mine but at least in my domain 100% Thai is far better and secure option.

Edited September 14, 2015 by marcofunny

[digibum]

As far as your visa comments, it is about time that Thailand tightened visa exemptions because people have been taking advantage of this loophole to stay in Thailand for years without a proper visa... You and you company are perfect examples of why... It is not rocket science...

In a perfect world, Thailand would crack down very hard on illegal immigration AND provide a less cumbersome process for being legal. Generally, people will comply with laws if they are easy to comply with. The more difficult they are to comply with, the greater the likelihood that people will try to find a way around them.

One of Thailand's biggest problems is that it tends to create highly complex, bureaucratic systems and then relies on things being handled "under the table."

Not that I condone breaking the law but to act like Thailand's laws are not sometimes intentionally designed to promote non-compliance in order for extra fees to be collected from those in non-compliance is somewhat dishonest.

That said, OP sounds like he's trying to make the old, "the ends justify the means" argument. There's high turnover in his foreign staff so he feels that that justifies his non-compliance. It doesn't. That's a problem with OPs business model (or perhaps the quality of people he's hiring), not the Thai laws.

Likewise, OP has attempted to make the argument that Thailand is losing out on all types of money because he's gone to Cambodia. I can assure you, OP, whatever you contributed to the Thai economy was a mere drop in the bucket.

And you and a bunch of other people selling shares did not drive down the SET and cause the baht to collapse.

When you make arguments like that you sound like the silly expats and tourists who think Thailand is going to crater because they're pulling their few thousand dollars a year out of the economy.

Delusions of granduer don't help in making your point.

[Shermanator]

Despite the fact that I think that your OP is kind of a boasting/troll/revenge post, I wish you best of luck in Cambodia!

[bwpage3]

Did all these poor Thai staff that lost their jobs know that your business was run around foreign illegal workers?

Did all these people know that you were running a completely illegal business? With non-tax paying foreign staff?

Do you think Thailand is here for your to reap the rewards and not pay in a single Baht to the system?

I hope your legal competitors are cracking open the champagne right now!

If you were in the UK for example you could be facing a 10000 GBP fine for every one of those illegal workers you employed..

Good luck in Cambodia.

In the UK it's 20,000 GBP (1 million baht) per illegal worker now, and if it can be shown that you knowingly employed an illegal worker then the fine can be unlimited, plus up to 2 years in prison.

Thailand isn't the UK the last time I checked and it is totally irrelevant to this post

[bwpage3]

Just a small off topic recommendation. When drafting work correspondence where you are comparing things, you might want to use more than rather than more then as the meanings are very diffe

How is your post contributing to this topic?

I agree. Many posters are not native English speakers. We all know that he meant "than" and not "then".

To add to that his own grammar leads a lot to be desired:

Where possible you should use a simple word over a complex word. Simple words are easier to read and let your readers focus on your ideas.

Replace "rather than" with:

•and not

•not

•than

I thought that the moderators would have deleted his thoughtless comment.

Was this post about the OP wanting free English lessons? No it wasn't and you are wasting everyone's time.

[gemguy]

Why didn't your foreign staff have a Non B visa and a work permit ? You are openly admitting that your foreign staff were working on ED and Tourist Visas... Either a troll or a perfect example of the fact that you can send a man to the moon but you still can't fix stupid.

I am not the only business that were running this way, you can not waste your time and resources applying for a very complicated paperwork for some staff who will stays 5 or 7 months working with you, the staff were constantly changing and there is no flexible visa work scheme such as the Australian working holiday visa program, the Cambodian business visa however is straightforward you pay $300 to an agent and you have a one year visa without any hassle.

only a fool thinks that foreigners will compete or steal jobs or wealth from locals, take a look at north Korea which illustrates the best example when a country closes its doors completely to foreigners.

We can only assume you were not paying taxes in Thailand either for your business activity, considering you were also subverting the visa / work permit process... Lucky you left when you did, I hear the monkey house is not a nice place...

Hmmmm....... the self appointed public accuser, judge, jury and hang man, all in one, has spoken....lol