Tough blow for Thai rice farmers already in debt

[Srikcir]

The dialog is always about what the farmers need to give up for the security of the nation's water supply.

Yet they are not the only people dependent on water. The urban areas offer no sacrifices and want to maintain their lifestyles uninterrupted. Both the government and the military have avoided any actions to reducing their water consumption or increasing water recovery.

Perhaps a seasonal tax on water consumption for the urban and industrial users is necessary to force urban dwellers and corporations to change their water habits. Those funds can then be recycled to the farmers to make up a voluntary shortfall in crop harvests. Water rationing and bans applied to urban, government and industrial users to the same extent expected from farmers would provide EQUAL sacrifice that is shared by everyone regardless of income.

[Jon Wetherall]

Debt is synonym to a Thai farmer, when was a Thai farmer NOT IN DEBT? year after year, decade after decade, those farmers

are always in debt, why? a million reasons why, will it be better? no, not the way the keep repeating the same mistakes

over and over again and learning nothing from it......

It's not the farmer's fault there hasn't been enough rain. It's not their fault either that the government, acting under guidance, have kept farmers poor and stupid for decades.

The "I'm alright Jack so frack everyone else" attitude from some of the less-well-evolved people around here is really starting to grate.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Jon Wetherall

[Thai at Heart]

What happened to all the extra income,when the Government was paying

the farmers well over the World market price for rice ?,

The whole system of growing rice needs a shake up,why are farmers growing

rice every year,but are getting deeper in debt,something is very wrong,maybe

the farmers have got to stand on their own feet,instead of always looking to

the Government for help,Thailand been the largest producer of Rice in the

World,why is the retail price so high,the rest of the working population has

to high prices to benefit,who ?

regards Worgeordie

The farmers saw very little of the extra paid by the rice scheme.

15k bht a tonne was the shouted figure but in our area the mills were paying 12-13k bht. Average production is maybe 600kg per rai with costs of about 6k bht per tonne. Giving a profit of maybe 15k bht for the average 4 rai of paddy in our village. 15,000 bht for four months rice cultivation is subsistence farming, not living the high life as many imagine.

15k was for highest quality and optimal moisture content.

[Stray]

Could they diversify into a crop that does not need so much water .Back in my home Country ,farmers have several crops which they rotate ,around the farm .

They do this already, during the dry season.

As far as rotating crops is concerned, it's very difficult when you have small acreage (rai-age?). Most/all of the available land is taken up by the crop in order to get the highest yield possible on the limited space.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Stray

[edwinchester]

What happened to all the extra income,when the Government was paying

the farmers well over the World market price for rice ?,

The whole system of growing rice needs a shake up,why are farmers growing

rice every year,but are getting deeper in debt,something is very wrong,maybe

the farmers have got to stand on their own feet,instead of always looking to

the Government for help,Thailand been the largest producer of Rice in the

World,why is the retail price so high,the rest of the working population has

to high prices to benefit,who ?

regards Worgeordie

The farmers saw very little of the extra paid by the rice scheme.

15k bht a tonne was the shouted figure but in our area the mills were paying 12-13k bht. Average production is maybe 600kg per rai with costs of about 6k bht per tonne. Giving a profit of maybe 15k bht for the average 4 rai of paddy in our village. 15,000 bht for four months rice cultivation is subsistence farming, not living the high life as many imagine.

15k was for highest quality and optimal moisture content.

Agree. That was for Jasmine rice I believe.

As an aside our friend grows organic Jasmine and even during the rice scheme there was significantly more money to be made selling privately rather than to a rice mill. The downside was having to dry the rice yourself and selling in small amounts so it took a while longer to realise all the profit.

[halloween]

Compensation would have to be at least 2000 baht per rai as that's the profit yardstick around here. The wife has 40 rai of paddie so 80k baht would be about right.

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of wishful thinking.

One Rai produces between 400-800 kilos of rice - 600 kg being sort of average - so the loss per Rai can be 4000-10000 Baht. 2000 doesn't come even close.

Problem here is that many farmers don't own the land they cultivate which cuts the profit in half. That is the real issue here. If things go pear-shaped, they loose money and go in to debt.

I would never want to be a farmer here. Hard work with little return.

You are quoting gross return, which is irrelevant. My point was that any handout will be limited, and I very much doubt it will be anywhere near B80,000 per household.

But why should rice farming be treated any differently to other businesses - because there is so many involved which gives them political clout. Every year there is some reason why they should get a handout, and the country has to import foreign workers while its own workforce is busy producing enough to keep them perpetually poor (allegedly). Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, the same crop is grown on broad-acre farms for a substantial profit.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Even when the very last rice farmer has died of starvation, the TAT will still be promoting songkran.

[wabothai]

If the government would decide on a better investment climate for foreigners which includes ownership of business and or structures, many of the ricefarmers could be employed and would earn a decent wage.

As a matter of fact business will be booming for Thailand, despite the draught.

No more civil unrest, no more need for an army to take power, no more....

Get rid of your xenophobia Thailand and you will florish.

[Thai at Heart]

Compensation would have to be at least 2000 baht per rai as that's the profit yardstick around here. The wife has 40 rai of paddie so 80k baht would be about right.

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of wishful thinking.

One Rai produces between 400-800 kilos of rice - 600 kg being sort of average - so the loss per Rai can be 4000-10000 Baht. 2000 doesn't come even close.

Problem here is that many farmers don't own the land they cultivate which cuts the profit in half. That is the real issue here. If things go pear-shaped, they loose money and go in to debt.

I would never want to be a farmer here. Hard work with little return.

You are quoting gross return, which is irrelevant. My point was that any handout will be limited, and I very much doubt it will be anywhere near B80,000 per household.

But why should rice farming be treated any differently to other businesses - because there is so many involved which gives them political clout. Every year there is some reason why they should get a handout, and the country has to import foreign workers while its own workforce is busy producing enough to keep them perpetually poor (allegedly). Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, the same crop is grown on broad-acre farms for a substantial profit.

Rubber and palm oil get their periodic handouts. This issue is not unique to rice.

[Jon Wetherall]

Compensation would have to be at least 2000 baht per rai as that's the profit yardstick around here. The wife has 40 rai of paddie so 80k baht would be about right.

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of wishful thinking.

One Rai produces between 400-800 kilos of rice - 600 kg being sort of average - so the loss per Rai can be 4000-10000 Baht. 2000 doesn't come even close.

Problem here is that many farmers don't own the land they cultivate which cuts the profit in half. That is the real issue here. If things go pear-shaped, they loose money and go in to debt.

I would never want to be a farmer here. Hard work with little return.

By design. Nothing is accidental.

[Jon Wetherall]

You seem to be suffering from a severe case of wishful thinking.

One Rai produces between 400-800 kilos of rice - 600 kg being sort of average - so the loss per Rai can be 4000-10000 Baht. 2000 doesn't come even close.

Problem here is that many farmers don't own the land they cultivate which cuts the profit in half. That is the real issue here. If things go pear-shaped, they loose money and go in to debt.

I would never want to be a farmer here. Hard work with little return.

You are quoting gross return, which is irrelevant. My point was that any handout will be limited, and I very much doubt it will be anywhere near B80,000 per household.

But why should rice farming be treated any differently to other businesses - because there is so many involved which gives them political clout. Every year there is some reason why they should get a handout, and the country has to import foreign workers while its own workforce is busy producing enough to keep them perpetually poor (allegedly). Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, the same crop is grown on broad-acre farms for a substantial profit.

Rubber and palm oil get their periodic handouts. This issue is not unique to rice.

Shhh. Don't tell them that, don't educate them, it's too entertaining the way it is.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Jon Wetherall

[thesetat2013]

And did she plant extra crops last year trying to cash in on the rice scam? Many did and this was part of the reason why their is so little water in reserves now. Many farmers killed themselves waiting to collect their money for this reason as well. Do you not think this water shortage has anything to do with water usage last year? I am sorry if my insinuations are directed at your farm habits as I don't know for sure about that. But it is not the current govs fault about this shortage yet you want compensation from them.

Hope you realize that the farmers weren't involved in the rice scam

They were to busy growing and harvesting it

And the reason there is not enough water for the next plant is the monsoons have not come this year

Yes there good have been better water management

So what you are saying is that none of those poor farmers grew additional crops to get as much from that rice scam as possible? So none of those farmers used additional water beyond the norm to cash in even of they got screwed in the end? Surely the previous gov is to blame for the current situation. But that doesn't absolve the growers who took advantage of it either. They are as muh to blame as YL. No foresight at all that would have prevented this shortage.

[rubl]

If there isn't enough water then there isn't enough water. There's no point in planting something that will fail to grow. To do so would surely lead to more debt.

If there isn't enough water that is and I don't see why the govt would say this if it wasn't true.

There isn't enough water because successive Governments have only given lip service in this area , now it has come home to bit them big time.

How does one make water when there isn't any? How does one prevent those living upstream (and maybe even in other countries) from using water from rivers which flow into the Kingdom?

[rubl]

Debt is synonym to a Thai farmer, when was a Thai farmer NOT IN DEBT? year after year, decade after decade, those farmers

are always in debt, why? a million reasons why, will it be better? no, not the way the keep repeating the same mistakes

over and over again and learning nothing from it......

It's not the farmer's fault there hasn't been enough rain. It's not their fault either that the government, acting under guidance, have kept farmers poor and stupid for decades.

The "I'm alright Jack so frack everyone else" attitude from some of the less-well-evolved people around here is really starting to grate.

Well, neither is it the governments fault that there is no rain (or actually more like was no rain, here in Bangkok it has been raining a few evenings/nights now).

Of course education would help, but still doesn't make rain. Better collection methods might help. Less wasteful use might help. No data on how much though. Pumping up water helps a bit, but has consequences like ground settling which may be drastic in the Central Plains (as in additional seasonal flooding).

Till now most farmer's help has resulted in quantity being stressed, especially the previous government's RPPS did that. Thailand need to learn to better use resource, aim at quality, etc., etc.

[maidee]

time for all of them to go work in the factory, no need for thousands of liters of water

[Thai at Heart]

Debt is synonym to a Thai farmer, when was a Thai farmer NOT IN DEBT? year after year, decade after decade, those farmers

are always in debt, why? a million reasons why, will it be better? no, not the way the keep repeating the same mistakes

over and over again and learning nothing from it......

It's not the farmer's fault there hasn't been enough rain. It's not their fault either that the government, acting under guidance, have kept farmers poor and stupid for decades.

The "I'm alright Jack so frack everyone else" attitude from some of the less-well-evolved people around here is really starting to grate.

Well, neither is it the governments fault that there is no rain (or actually more like was no rain, here in Bangkok it has been raining a few evenings/nights now).

Of course education would help, but still doesn't make rain. Better collection methods might help. Less wasteful use might help. No data on how much though. Pumping up water helps a bit, but has consequences like ground settling which may be drastic in the Central Plains (as in additional seasonal flooding).

Till now most farmer's help has resulted in quantity being stressed, especially the previous government's RPPS did that. Thailand need to learn to better use resource, aim at quality, etc., etc.

Not chasing the mythical title of largest rice exporter in the world might be a start.

Quality not quantity.

Just pay farmers to start laying away land and take excess rice and distribute it to them if required.

[vagaboberalis]

Pity they are not paying attention to my National Flood Prevention Design that I have put forward to two local prime ministers and three regional. Besides preventing floods, it stores large amounts of water specifically for second cropping and power generation. This not a dam system but an offset retention resevoir system applied to the entire river system including the smallest tributaries. I call it a MegaPixel Project. And it isa free app that I am donating to the world having worked in the Humanitarian sector fo 30 years as a water engineer.

Sent from my SM-C105 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jonmarleesco]

Long past time for a strategy to wean some farmers off rice and onto some other crop options. But I doubt it'll be a top priority for governments, or for the rice farmers.

[Stray]

Long past time for a strategy to wean some farmers off rice and onto some other crop options. But I doubt it'll be a top priority for governments, or for the rice farmers.

Rice farmers do already grow other crops, during the dry season.

Rice is the staple for this continent (not just for this country). With ever increasing cities which are encroaching more and more onto agricultural land and ever increasing populations which are demanding MORE rice, where is the sense in 'weaning some farmers off rice'?

Further, with the growth problems I've mentioned above, where will this crop be grown and who will grow it?

If you are married to, or live with, a Southeast Asian, I'm sure you must have heard them say that they are hungry because they haven't eaten any rice today (regardless of the quantity of other foods they have consumed). So, it's not just a matter of saying they can just change their dietary habits and that will solve the problems.

Yes, there are rice varieties that require less water. There is even 'dry' rice which requires minimal water. I haven't done any research on it but who eats it?

An example of rice, not being rice, was when the US was trying to alleviate hunger issues in South Vietnam. They were importing (into South Vietnam) a variety of rice that the villagers refused to eat and were feeding to their pigs. The point being, the villagers would rather go hungry than to eat a variety of rice that they were not familiar with.

This is not a US bash, so please do not take it as such. It is just an example of a foreign country not understanding the local dietary habits.

(To a lesser extent, this is no different to the 'beef bacon' or 'turkey bacon' that they used to try and pass off to us at breakfast time, when I worked in muslim countries. Okay, we used to eat it but it wasn't a good substitute and it was fantastic to get home and dine on the real thing.)

Yes, something must be done to alleviate water shortages. Yes, something must be done to ensure future food security. There is no simple solution to these complex, inteconnected issues which are fast becoming insurmountable.

Further, to your point about 'weaning farmers off rice', this is not working so well in countries such as Indonesia. The annual 'slash and burn' of forests and jungles, to clear land for palm oil (and other 'high return' crops), is affecting at least two other countries (Malaysia and Singapore) with air pollution. Not to mention the decimation of the local flora and fauna.

Okay, I'm getting off point but, again, there is no easy solution.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Stray

[Thai at Heart]

Long past time for a strategy to wean some farmers off rice and onto some other crop options. But I doubt it'll be a top priority for governments, or for the rice farmers.

Rice farmers do already grow other crops, during the dry season.

Rice is the staple for this continent (not just for this country). With ever increasing cities which are encroaching more and more onto agricultural land and ever increasing populations which are demanding MORE rice, where is the sense in 'weaning some farmers off rice'?

Further, with the growth problems I've mentioned above, where will this crop be grown and who will grow it?

If you are married to, or live with, a Southeast Asian, I'm sure you must have heard them say that they are hungry because they haven't eaten any rice today. Regardless of the quantity of other foods they have consumed. So, it's not just a matter of saying they can just change their dietary habits and that will solve the problems.

Yes, there are rice varieties that require less water. There is even 'dry' rice which requires minimal water. I haven't done any research on it but who eats it?

An example of rice, not being rice, was when the US was trying to alleviate hunger issues in South Vietnam. They were importing (into South Vietnam) a variety of rice that the villagers refused to eat and were feeding to their pigs. The point being, the villagers would rather go hungry than to eat a variety of rice that they were not familiar with.

This is not a US bash, so please do not take it as such. It is just an example of a foreign country not understanding the local dietary habits.

(To a lesser extent, this is no different to the 'beef bacon' or 'turkey bacon' that they used to try and pass off to us at breakfast time, when I worked in muslim countries. Okay, we used to eat it but it wasn't a good substitute and it was fantastic to get home and dine on the real thing.)

Yes, something must be done to alleviate water shortages. Yes, something must be done to ensure future food security. There is no simple solution to these complex, inteconnected issues which are fast becoming insurmountable.

Further, to your point about 'weaning farmers off rice', this is not working so well in countries such as Indonesia. The annual 'slash and burn' of forests and jungles, to clear land for palm oil (and other 'high return' crops), is affecting at least two other countries (Malaysia and Singapore) with air pollution. Not to mention the decimation of the local flora and fauna.

Okay, I'm getting off point but, again, there is no easy solution.

Thailand exports a huge volume of its production. It has more than enough to feed the people, just maybe a bit less to feed the wallets of the exporters.

[Stray]

Long past time for a strategy to wean some farmers off rice and onto some other crop options. But I doubt it'll be a top priority for governments, or for the rice farmers.

Rice farmers do already grow other crops, during the dry season.

Rice is the staple for this continent (not just for this country). With ever increasing cities which are encroaching more and more onto agricultural land and ever increasing populations which are demanding MORE rice, where is the sense in 'weaning some farmers off rice'?

Further, with the growth problems I've mentioned above, where will this crop be grown and who will grow it?

If you are married to, or live with, a Southeast Asian, I'm sure you must have heard them say that they are hungry because they haven't eaten any rice today. Regardless of the quantity of other foods they have consumed. So, it's not just a matter of saying they can just change their dietary habits and that will solve the problems.

Yes, there are rice varieties that require less water. There is even 'dry' rice which requires minimal water. I haven't done any research on it but who eats it?

An example of rice, not being rice, was when the US was trying to alleviate hunger issues in South Vietnam. They were importing (into South Vietnam) a variety of rice that the villagers refused to eat and were feeding to their pigs. The point being, the villagers would rather go hungry than to eat a variety of rice that they were not familiar with.

This is not a US bash, so please do not take it as such. It is just an example of a foreign country not understanding the local dietary habits.

(To a lesser extent, this is no different to the 'beef bacon' or 'turkey bacon' that they used to try and pass off to us at breakfast time, when I worked in muslim countries. Okay, we used to eat it but it wasn't a good substitute and it was fantastic to get home and dine on the real thing.)

Yes, something must be done to alleviate water shortages. Yes, something must be done to ensure future food security. There is no simple solution to these complex, inteconnected issues which are fast becoming insurmountable.

Further, to your point about 'weaning farmers off rice', this is not working so well in countries such as Indonesia. The annual 'slash and burn' of forests and jungles, to clear land for palm oil (and other 'high return' crops), is affecting at least two other countries (Malaysia and Singapore) with air pollution. Not to mention the decimation of the local flora and fauna.

Okay, I'm getting off point but, again, there is no easy solution.

Thailand exports a huge volume of its production. It has more than enough to feed the people, just maybe a bit less to feed the wallets of the exporters.

Yes, Thailand does export a huge volume of it's production as Thai rice is considered a quality product.

Now, I assume, this exported rice is being eaten by the people in the countries that they export to.

So, the solution is just to get the countries, that import Thai rice, to grown their own rice? Thailand could then concentrate on growing 'just enough rice' to support it's own requirements, with no thought to future food security (storing excess) and no thought to international trade?

Edited September 15, 2015 by Stray

[tonbridgebrit]

And the solution to the problem ? Yes, tell them to not grow any rice. But also, give them a payment or compensation, and they won't suffer so much. If they're told to not grow rice, and there's no payment/compensation for them, well, that will be a very dangerous situation. When people are desperate, well, they might carry out desperate actions.

[tonbridgebrit]

Its quite clear compensation is needed otherwise the problems for the farmers will be real bad. How much and how has to be worked out. I am also pretty sure the farmers will always claim its not enough (farmers all over the world are like that).

I just hope they do enforce the ban.

Yes, enforce the ban. AND give them compensation.

[Thai at Heart]

Long past time for a strategy to wean some farmers off rice and onto some other crop options. But I doubt it'll be a top priority for governments, or for the rice farmers.

Rice farmers do already grow other crops, during the dry season.

Rice is the staple for this continent (not just for this country). With ever increasing cities which are encroaching more and more onto agricultural land and ever increasing populations which are demanding MORE rice, where is the sense in 'weaning some farmers off rice'?

Further, with the growth problems I've mentioned above, where will this crop be grown and who will grow it?

If you are married to, or live with, a Southeast Asian, I'm sure you must have heard them say that they are hungry because they haven't eaten any rice today. Regardless of the quantity of other foods they have consumed. So, it's not just a matter of saying they can just change their dietary habits and that will solve the problems.

Yes, there are rice varieties that require less water. There is even 'dry' rice which requires minimal water. I haven't done any research on it but who eats it?

An example of rice, not being rice, was when the US was trying to alleviate hunger issues in South Vietnam. They were importing (into South Vietnam) a variety of rice that the villagers refused to eat and were feeding to their pigs. The point being, the villagers would rather go hungry than to eat a variety of rice that they were not familiar with.

This is not a US bash, so please do not take it as such. It is just an example of a foreign country not understanding the local dietary habits.

(To a lesser extent, this is no different to the 'beef bacon' or 'turkey bacon' that they used to try and pass off to us at breakfast time, when I worked in muslim countries. Okay, we used to eat it but it wasn't a good substitute and it was fantastic to get home and dine on the real thing.)

Yes, something must be done to alleviate water shortages. Yes, something must be done to ensure future food security. There is no simple solution to these complex, inteconnected issues which are fast becoming insurmountable.

Further, to your point about 'weaning farmers off rice', this is not working so well in countries such as Indonesia. The annual 'slash and burn' of forests and jungles, to clear land for palm oil (and other 'high return' crops), is affecting at least two other countries (Malaysia and Singapore) with air pollution. Not to mention the decimation of the local flora and fauna.

Okay, I'm getting off point but, again, there is no easy solution.

Thailand exports a huge volume of its production. It has more than enough to feed the people, just maybe a bit less to feed the wallets of the exporters.

Yes, Thailand does export a huge volume of it's production as Thai rice is considered a quality product.

Now, I assume, this exported rice is being eaten by the people in the countries that they export to.

So, the solution is just to get the countries, that import Thai rice, to grown their own rice? Thailand could then concentrate on growing 'just enough rice' to support it's own requirements, with no thought to future food security (storing excess) and no thought to international trade?

Your issue was whether Thailand has enough land/food to support urban development.

With such a huge surplus, obviously yes. Fact is the farmers don't make much profit on it, so yes bring on the trade as much as possible.

Thailand can't concern itself with the world's development however, but safe to say they have plenty of rice. Just not much money for it.

Fact is, there are far too many small hold farmers growing too much unprofitable rice. The market is nuts when 30% of production is exported and yet farmers aren't profitable. Too much money consumed by middle men and exporters is the problem.

The govt could subsidise the domestic volume and all excess volume to be paid at market price. But alas, the rice barons like their suppliers fragmented and weak. It isn't going to change any time soon.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Thai at Heart

[Stray]

Rice farmers do already grow other crops, during the dry season.

Rice is the staple for this continent (not just for this country). With ever increasing cities which are encroaching more and more onto agricultural land and ever increasing populations which are demanding MORE rice, where is the sense in 'weaning some farmers off rice'?

Further, with the growth problems I've mentioned above, where will this crop be grown and who will grow it?

If you are married to, or live with, a Southeast Asian, I'm sure you must have heard them say that they are hungry because they haven't eaten any rice today. Regardless of the quantity of other foods they have consumed. So, it's not just a matter of saying they can just change their dietary habits and that will solve the problems.

Yes, there are rice varieties that require less water. There is even 'dry' rice which requires minimal water. I haven't done any research on it but who eats it?

An example of rice, not being rice, was when the US was trying to alleviate hunger issues in South Vietnam. They were importing (into South Vietnam) a variety of rice that the villagers refused to eat and were feeding to their pigs. The point being, the villagers would rather go hungry than to eat a variety of rice that they were not familiar with.

This is not a US bash, so please do not take it as such. It is just an example of a foreign country not understanding the local dietary habits.

(To a lesser extent, this is no different to the 'beef bacon' or 'turkey bacon' that they used to try and pass off to us at breakfast time, when I worked in muslim countries. Okay, we used to eat it but it wasn't a good substitute and it was fantastic to get home and dine on the real thing.)

Yes, something must be done to alleviate water shortages. Yes, something must be done to ensure future food security. There is no simple solution to these complex, inteconnected issues which are fast becoming insurmountable.

Further, to your point about 'weaning farmers off rice', this is not working so well in countries such as Indonesia. The annual 'slash and burn' of forests and jungles, to clear land for palm oil (and other 'high return' crops), is affecting at least two other countries (Malaysia and Singapore) with air pollution. Not to mention the decimation of the local flora and fauna.

Okay, I'm getting off point but, again, there is no easy solution.

Thailand exports a huge volume of its production. It has more than enough to feed the people, just maybe a bit less to feed the wallets of the exporters.

Yes, Thailand does export a huge volume of it's production as Thai rice is considered a quality product.

Now, I assume, this exported rice is being eaten by the people in the countries that they export to.

So, the solution is just to get the countries, that import Thai rice, to grown their own rice? Thailand could then concentrate on growing 'just enough rice' to support it's own requirements, with no thought to future food security (storing excess) and no thought to international trade?

Your issue was whether Thailand has enough land/food to support urban development.

With such a huge surplus, obviously yes. Fact is the farmers don't make much profit on it, so yes bring on the trade as much as possible.

Thailand can't concern itself with the world's development however, but safe to say they have plenty of rice. Just not much money for it.

Fact is, there are far too many small hold farmers growing too much unprofitable rice. The market is nuts when 30% of production is exported and yet farmers aren't profitable. Too much money consumed by middle men and exporters is the problem.

The govt could subsidise the domestic volume and all excess volume to be paid at market price. But alas, the rice barons like their suppliers fragmented and weak. It isn't going to change any time soon.

To respond to your first statement, I allude to an entire continent, not just Thailand. This is not just a national problem and each country must work at doing their part. Again, future proofing food security and working on ways to do this with the resources on hand and the unpredictable climate.

In order to understand your comment on export, a couple of questions. Rice exports are just run by individuals for their own personal profit? These exports don't bring foreign currency into the country, attract taxes, balance out trade on imports?

Yes, there are many small hold farmers (my family is one of them). Yes, many are losing money, hand over fist, but why is that?

From my personal experience:

When I first moved in with the missus and her family, we constantly had door-to-door salesmen trying to flog off fertilisers, pesticides, farming equipment etc., etc., etc. Each of these slick sales people had lots of glossy brochures, facts, figures, testimonials on how good their products were. They also had a myriad of ways that these items could be purchased on some form of credit (buy now, pay later).

Many of these products sounded fantastic (even to me) but began to lose their appeal when questions were asked. Have you tested our land/produce to determine whether these products are required? Are these products safe? Would you put it on your children's food? If these products don't work, will you agree to a contract which states there is no payment?

The problem was, loss of profits due to unnecessary expenditure. Solution? Education.

In 2013, we had a good rice crop. Enough for personal consumption with plenty remaining for future plantings. (Food security.)

Last year, there was a lot of talk about a poor monsoon season. We opted to plant a smaller crop. With the failure of last year's wet season, we lost the entire crop. This year, we didn't plant any rice (for the same reason). The result is that we won't have enough to last us into the middle of next year and will have none for planting (still using the remainder of the 2013 crop).

The problems were/are, not having a large enough crop in 2013, climatic conditions through 2014/2015, not having farming methods in place to alleviate the 2014/2015 conditions.

Solutions?

We are working on several.

We have sacrificed some land to put in a water catchment area and rain water tanks. We have also diverted our waste water (not sewerage), from the families houses, into this catchment area, via a simple filtration system. The idea is to try and safeguard against future drought conditions.

We are also working on several soil conditioning methods and landscaping to try and conserve water but also to maintain a higher moisture level during the dry season. Again, in an attempt to alleviate water requirements.

Finally, we are going to have to buy rice in order to meet our immediate consumption needs and future planting needs. (Our buying of rice is our form of 'importing'.)

Sure, we are going to make (have made) a lot of mistakes but, once we find sustainable solutions to our problems, we will be sharing this with our neighbours. Along with talk of a 'co-operative' scheme, this may assist them in being able to make better use of what they have.

Getting off topic but, for me, this is a personal topic.

Please note, when I use the terms 'we', 'my', 'our', or any other such personal descriptors, I am fully aware that foreigners cannot own land, cannot partake in any form of (farming) work, 'cannot make money in Thailand', 'cannot educate Isaan people', blah, blah, blah. I have used these terms to simplify my message.

[Thai at Heart]

Rice farmers do already grow other crops, during the dry season.

Rice is the staple for this continent (not just for this country). With ever increasing cities which are encroaching more and more onto agricultural land and ever increasing populations which are demanding MORE rice, where is the sense in 'weaning some farmers off rice'?

Further, with the growth problems I've mentioned above, where will this crop be grown and who will grow it?

If you are married to, or live with, a Southeast Asian, I'm sure you must have heard them say that they are hungry because they haven't eaten any rice today. Regardless of the quantity of other foods they have consumed. So, it's not just a matter of saying they can just change their dietary habits and that will solve the problems.

Yes, there are rice varieties that require less water. There is even 'dry' rice which requires minimal water. I haven't done any research on it but who eats it?

An example of rice, not being rice, was when the US was trying to alleviate hunger issues in South Vietnam. They were importing (into South Vietnam) a variety of rice that the villagers refused to eat and were feeding to their pigs. The point being, the villagers would rather go hungry than to eat a variety of rice that they were not familiar with.

This is not a US bash, so please do not take it as such. It is just an example of a foreign country not understanding the local dietary habits.

(To a lesser extent, this is no different to the 'beef bacon' or 'turkey bacon' that they used to try and pass off to us at breakfast time, when I worked in muslim countries. Okay, we used to eat it but it wasn't a good substitute and it was fantastic to get home and dine on the real thing.)

Yes, something must be done to alleviate water shortages. Yes, something must be done to ensure future food security. There is no simple solution to these complex, inteconnected issues which are fast becoming insurmountable.

Further, to your point about 'weaning farmers off rice', this is not working so well in countries such as Indonesia. The annual 'slash and burn' of forests and jungles, to clear land for palm oil (and other 'high return' crops), is affecting at least two other countries (Malaysia and Singapore) with air pollution. Not to mention the decimation of the local flora and fauna.

Okay, I'm getting off point but, again, there is no easy solution.

Thailand exports a huge volume of its production. It has more than enough to feed the people, just maybe a bit less to feed the wallets of the exporters.

Yes, Thailand does export a huge volume of it's production as Thai rice is considered a quality product.

Now, I assume, this exported rice is being eaten by the people in the countries that they export to.

So, the solution is just to get the countries, that import Thai rice, to grown their own rice? Thailand could then concentrate on growing 'just enough rice' to support it's own requirements, with no thought to future food security (storing excess) and no thought to international trade?

Your issue was whether Thailand has enough land/food to support urban development.

With such a huge surplus, obviously yes. Fact is the farmers don't make much profit on it, so yes bring on the trade as much as possible.

Thailand can't concern itself with the world's development however, but safe to say they have plenty of rice. Just not much money for it.

Fact is, there are far too many small hold farmers growing too much unprofitable rice. The market is nuts when 30% of production is exported and yet farmers aren't profitable. Too much money consumed by middle men and exporters is the problem.

The govt could subsidise the domestic volume and all excess volume to be paid at market price. But alas, the rice barons like their suppliers fragmented and weak. It isn't going to change any time soon.

To respond to your first statement, I allude to an entire continent, not just Thailand. This is not just a national problem and each country must work at doing their part. Again, future proofing food security and working on ways to do this with the resources on hand and the unpredictable climate.

In order to understand your comment on export, a couple of questions. Rice exports are just run by individuals for their own personal profit? These exports don't bring foreign currency into the country, attract taxes, balance out trade on imports?

Yes, there are many small hold farmers (my family is one of them). Yes, many are losing money, hand over fist, but why is that?

From my personal experience:

When I first moved in with the missus and her family, we constantly had door-to-door salesmen trying to flog off fertilisers, pesticides, farming equipment etc., etc., etc. Each of these slick sales people had lots of glossy brochures, facts, figures, testimonials on how good their products were. They also had a myriad of ways that these items could be purchased on some form of credit (buy now, pay later).

Many of these products sounded fantastic (even to me) but began to lose their appeal when questions were asked. Have you tested our land/produce to determine whether these products are required? Are these products safe? Would you put it on your children's food? If these products don't work, will you agree to a contract which states there is no payment?

The problem was, loss of profits due to unnecessary expenditure. Solution? Education.

In 2013, we had a good rice crop. Enough for personal consumption with plenty remaining for future plantings. (Food security.)

Last year, there was a lot of talk about a poor monsoon season. We opted to plant a smaller crop. With the failure of last year's wet season, we lost the entire crop. This year, we didn't plant any rice (for the same reason). The result is that we won't have enough to last us into the middle of next year and will have none for planting (still using the remainder of the 2013 crop).

The problems were/are, not having a large enough crop in 2013, climatic conditions through 2014/2015, not having farming methods in place to alleviate the 2014/2015 conditions.

Solutions?

We are working on several.

We have sacrificed some land to put in a water catchment area and rain water tanks. We have also diverted our waste water (not sewerage), from the families houses, into this catchment area, via a simple filtration system. The idea is to try and safeguard against future drought conditions.

We are also working on several soil conditioning methods and landscaping to try and conserve water but also to maintain a higher moisture level during the dry season. Again, in an attempt to alleviate water requirements.

Finally, we are going to have to buy rice in order to meet our immediate consumption needs and future planting needs. (Our buying of rice is our form of 'importing'.)

Sure, we are going to make (have made) a lot of mistakes but, once we find sustainable solutions to our problems, we will be sharing this with our neighbours. Along with talk of a 'co-operative' scheme, this may assist them in being able to make better use of what they have.

Getting off topic but, for me, this is a personal topic.

Please note, when I use the terms 'we', 'my', 'our', or any other such personal descriptors, I am fully aware that foreigners cannot own land, cannot partake in any form of (farming) work, 'cannot make money in Thailand', 'cannot educate Isaan people', blah, blah, blah. I have used these terms to simplify my message.

Yes they do make forex, although if they are done like many agricultural exports they are transfer priced out of Singapore or Hong Kong to pay "marketing offices" and so, may not reflect their true value once washed around inside the companies.

At least that's what it was like when in was in agribusiness.

At the end of the day, if the farmers aren't profitable, it is unsustainable.

[coulson]

Pity they are not paying attention to my National Flood Prevention Design that I have put forward to two local prime ministers and three regional. Besides preventing floods, it stores large amounts of water specifically for second cropping and power generation. This not a dam system but an offset retention resevoir system applied to the entire river system including the smallest tributaries. I call it a MegaPixel Project. And it isa free app that I am donating to the world having worked in the Humanitarian sector fo 30 years as a water engineer.

Sent from my SM-C105 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Why would they take note of new concepts when they don't observe already tried and tested one's?

Interested in your app though, sounds interesting.....more info?

[Stray]

Yes they do make forex, although if they are done like many agricultural exports they are transfer priced out of Singapore or Hong Kong to pay "marketing offices" and so, may not reflect their true value once washed around inside the companies.

At least that's what it was like when in was in agribusiness.

At the end of the day, if the farmers aren't profitable, it is unsustainable.

And the solution to unsustainable farming is what?

Edited September 15, 2015 by Stray

[Thai at Heart]

Yes they do make forex, although if they are done like many agricultural exports they are transfer priced out of Singapore or Hong Kong to pay "marketing offices" and so, may not reflect their true value once washed around inside the companies.

At least that's what it was like when in was in agribusiness.

At the end of the day, if the farmers aren't profitable, it is unsustainable.

And the solution to unsustainable farming is what?

I worked in Europe in an interesting market where the farmer cooperative and the finance ministry created a company to export 20% of the market.

They kept the market honest and stopped the private companies colluding.

Someone has to intervene in the rice market to increase the percentage of profit sitting with the farmer whilst allowing the private sector to make a profit but not exploit it.

Virtually all Thai agribusiness markets are in the hands of 2 or 3 dominant players. Their risk is minimal and pass all the failures onto the farmers who pass it onto the govt.

Why can't rubber, rice, sugar, and others have one govt market maker to keep everyone honest. They can act as buyer of last resort.

There is one market in Thailand like this, but I bet no one can name it, because farmers in it make money every year, the govt portion makes plenty of wonga and the private sector makes good profit too.