Hazing, sexuality and the problem with education in Thailand

[webfact]

Hazing, sexuality and the problem with education in Thailand
By Saksith Saiyasombut & Siam Voices
By James Farrell

BANGKOK: -- Hazing rituals at Thailand’s universities, known in Thai collectively as ‘rab nong’ (welcome the juniors), despite often coming under heavy criticism by the Thai and international press, as well as growing numbers of Thai anti-hazing groups for sometimes violent, dehumanizing, and humiliating practices, remains prevalent in Thailand.

Hazing, which comes under the banner of SOTUS (Seniority: Order: Tradition: Unity: Spirit), at its worst has led to the deaths of students, although loss of life is fortunately something that hasn’t happened often. The degradation of juniors by seniors, however, is commonplace, and has been widely reported by the press and students themselves.

Following a piece I wrote called ‘Sanctioned Sadism’, the mostly Thai commenters on the article were polarized in their feelings towards the indictment. Asian Correspondent’s Facebook post, which garnered over 20,000 comments, was taken down. I contacted Facebook about this, but no reason was given, nor has the post ever resurfaced.

It is perhaps possible that a large number of complaints were made by Thai commenters, given that many denied that any kind of barbarism, or even ill-will, existed at hazing rituals – even in the face of a large amount of photographic and video evidence.

Full story: http://asiancorrespondent.com/135539/hazing-sexuality-and-the-problem-with-education-in-thailand/

-- ASIAN CORRESPONDENT 2015-09-14

[h90]

Problem is the quality of the Universities.....If there would be a drop out rate of 50-60% all the nonsense would stop

[ezzra]

Yes indeed, at time it seems that everything else is going on there in them higher institutions of learning but studying

and actually learning....... and unfortunately it shows in all aspects of Thai life.....

[scorecard]

Here's another angle; sure everybody wants uni students to enjoy university. But all of this has gone way too far.

Why should juniors be servants to seniors? There is no rational reason for this to happen, none at all.

All students have the right to just attend and learn and not be harassed in any way.

The childish 'fun' which now dominates most of the attendance time, including actual class-room time, has got to the point where learning takes second place, which longer-term is not desirable.

So many youngsters are now in this mould, they laugh and deride their teachers who continuously have to stop the class and ask them to behave / to listen / to stop talking loudly to their friends in the class / stop playing / texting etc., on the smart phone. etc.

They do poorly in exams and get a final low GPA then blame their uni, their teachers etc. Or they contact their professor and ask for more individual assignments* to hopefully up their grade. In reality the 'extra assignments' route is a poor approach and far from ideal because nobody knows who actually wrote the assignment. (* fairly recently I've received several e-mails: 'If I send you proof that I have given blood twice, will you change my grade to A ?' )

It's now showing in the workplace, higher and higher numbers of new graduates in their first job cannot pass probation.

I know of several Thai and Japanese companies who now have policies that they now don't ever employ new graduates in many fields:

- These companies all now have policies that the youngest age for new recruits is 25 / 27, in these fields.

Worth noting is that youngsters who come from schools where they gain a technical certificate needed to get production line jobs in IT / hi-tech manufacturing etc., have quite good on-the-job behaviors and attitudes.

Edited September 14, 2015 by scorecard

[h90]

Here's another angle; sure everybody wants uni students to enjoy university. But all of this has gone way too far.

Why should juniors be servants to seniors? There is no rational reason for this to happen, none at all.

All students have the right to just attend and learn and not be harassed in any way.

The childish 'fun' which now dominates most of the attendance time, including actual class-room time, has got to the point where learning takes second place, which longer-term is not desirable.

So many youngsters are now in this mould, they laugh and deride their teachers who continuously have to stop the class and ask them to behave / to listen / to stop talking loudly to their friends in the class / stop playing / texting etc., on the smart phone. etc.

They do poorly in exams and get a final low GPA then blame their uni, their teachers etc. Or they contact their professor and ask for more individual assignments* to hopefully up their grade. In reality the 'extra assignments' route is a poor approach and far from ideal because nobody knows who actually wrote the assignment. (* fairly recently I've received several e-mails: 'If I send you proof that I have given blood twice, will you change my grade to A ?' )

It's now showing in the workplace, higher and higher numbers of new graduates in their first job cannot pass probation.

I know of several Thai and Japanese companies who now have policies that they now don't ever employ new graduates in many fields:

- These companies all now have policies that the youngest age for new recruits is 25 / 27, in these fields.

Worth noting is that youngsters who come from schools where they gain a technical certificate needed to get production line jobs in IT / hi-tech manufacturing etc., have quite good on-the-job behaviors and attitudes.

University is not for enjoy. It is to hammer a smart brain into an elite mind. Not making an average kid a spoiled egoistic sadist.

[Seastallion]

I recommend everyone read the entire linked article.

It's well written, makes good points, and has some absolute gems of hilarity....for example the sample O-Net question and it's "correct" answer.

[Jeremy50]

The priorities for most Thai students in the classroom are: Talk to my friends, play games on my phone, recharge my phone, eat something out of a plastic bag, watch some video clips on my phone, hug and flirt with my friends, make fun of the teacher, throw paper around the room, scrunch up water bottles so they make a loud noise, then throw them out the window, put my head on the desk and get some sleep, 'go to the toilet' with 3 of my friends. Draw cartoons in my notebook, kick a football around the room, play my guitar[badly], copy stuff from my friends. Shout and laugh just like all the other students in the room.

[Lupatria]

Here's another angle; sure everybody wants uni students to enjoy university. But all of this has gone way too far.

Why should juniors be servants to seniors? There is no rational reason for this to happen, none at all.

All students have the right to just attend and learn and not be harassed in any way.

The childish 'fun' which now dominates most of the attendance time, including actual class-room time, has got to the point where learning takes second place, which longer-term is not desirable.

So many youngsters are now in this mould, they laugh and deride their teachers who continuously have to stop the class and ask them to behave / to listen / to stop talking loudly to their friends in the class / stop playing / texting etc., on the smart phone. etc.

They do poorly in exams and get a final low GPA then blame their uni, their teachers etc. Or they contact their professor and ask for more individual assignments* to hopefully up their grade. In reality the 'extra assignments' route is a poor approach and far from ideal because nobody knows who actually wrote the assignment. (* fairly recently I've received several e-mails: 'If I send you proof that I have given blood twice, will you change my grade to A ?' )

It's now showing in the workplace, higher and higher numbers of new graduates in their first job cannot pass probation.

I know of several Thai and Japanese companies who now have policies that they now don't ever employ new graduates in many fields:

- These companies all now have policies that the youngest age for new recruits is 25 / 27, in these fields.

Worth noting is that youngsters who come from schools where they gain a technical certificate needed to get production line jobs in IT / hi-tech manufacturing etc., have quite good on-the-job behaviors and attitudes.

Why should juniors be servants to seniors?

Good question- if you are looking for answers, ask a senior Admiral an army commander and even the army's spokes person...It's possibly just another part of their culture we don't understand.

[lostoday]

The priorities for most Thai students in the classroom are: Talk to my friends, play games on my phone, recharge my phone, eat something out of a plastic bag, watch some video clips on my phone, hug and flirt with my friends, make fun of the teacher, throw paper around the room, scrunch up water bottles so they make a loud noise, then throw them out the window, put my head on the desk and get some sleep, 'go to the toilet' with 3 of my friends. Draw cartoons in my notebook, kick a football around the room, play my guitar[badly], copy stuff from my friends. Shout and laugh just like all the other students in the room.

They didn't do that in my classes. You must be one of those tefal teachers without a degree.

[lostoday]

I recommend everyone read the entire linked article.

It's well written, makes good points, and has some absolute gems of hilarity....for example the sample O-Net question and it's "correct" answer.

I agree with you but if anyone wanted serious discussion or comment the article would be moved to the teaching forum where you have uni teachers able to comment on the real state of education in Thailand instead of old drunks posting from betsits in Europe.

[TPI]

I recommend everyone read the entire linked article.

It's well written, makes good points, and has some absolute gems of hilarity....for example the sample O-Net question and it's "correct" answer.

I agree with you but if anyone wanted serious discussion or comment the article would be moved to the teaching forum where you have uni teachers able to comment on the real state of education in Thailand instead of old drunks posting from betsits in Europe.

Dear Mr Lostoday, amazing tho it may seem, some Op's on TV not only don't drink some, actually live in Thailand! It would be a total waste of time to put it on the "teaching" forum as farang teachers in Thailand are well aware of the nonsense that passes for education in the LOS! We go to work, have lunch, a few beers after work and pick up our pay every month....we try not to think too much about the futures of our students as we know that the ones with rich families will have a good life and everyone else will be like little worker ants, pretending that they're doing well while trying to pay off the car and the house!

Chok dee, althougth nothing is ever going to change!

[lostoday]

I recommend everyone read the entire linked article.

It's well written, makes good points, and has some absolute gems of hilarity....for example the sample O-Net question and it's "correct" answer.

I agree with you but if anyone wanted serious discussion or comment the article would be moved to the teaching forum where you have uni teachers able to comment on the real state of education in Thailand instead of old drunks posting from betsits in Europe.

Dear Mr Lostoday, amazing tho it may seem, some Op's on TV not only don't drink some, actually live in Thailand! It would be a total waste of time to put it on the "teaching" forum as farang teachers in Thailand are well aware of the nonsense that passes for education in the LOS! We go to work, have lunch, a few beers after work and pick up our pay every month....we try not to think too much about the futures of our students as we know that the ones with rich families will have a good life and everyone else will be like little worker ants, pretending that they're doing well while trying to pay off the car and the house!

Chok dee, althougth nothing is ever going to change!

Good attitude. I assume no degree in education.

[user82374298374]

Why should juniors be servants to seniors? There is no rational reason for this to happen, none at all.

The primary purpose of universities in Asian societies isn't education; it's to condition students to accept their place in a highly stratified, hierarchical society.

The hazing serves as a way to break the students into this mindset quickly - they've already grown up stewed in it, but may be having unwelcome (by the hierarchy) desires of some personal freedom and individual identity. This cannot be allowed, so the hazing is tacitly encouraged by the elites.

[lostoday]

Why should juniors be servants to seniors? There is no rational reason for this to happen, none at all.

The primary purpose of universities in Asian societies isn't education; it's to condition students to accept their place in a highly stratified, hierarchical society.

The hazing serves as a way to break the students into this mindset quickly - they've already grown up stewed in it, but may be having unwelcome (by the hierarchy) desires of some personal freedom and individual identity. This cannot be allowed, so the hazing is tacitly encouraged by the elites.

Let me guess you dropped out of school in 6th grade.

[NaRangsit]

Sadly learning anything in Thai schools is wrong from the start. Classes are too big and there is on overly heavy reliance on rote learning and teacher centered classrooms.

[lostoday]

Sadly learning anything in Thai schools is wrong from the start. Classes are too big and there is on overly heavy reliance on rote learning and teacher centered classrooms.

Rote learning would be fine it all the basics are learned. It is only in the later years of college when anyone asks a student's opinion about anything anyway.

How do you learn English if not by rote? Repetition, say the words over and over again but say them correctly.

How do you learn multiplication tables or any basic concepts of education? I didn't learn Thai by some critical analysis of Asian philosophy. I learned it by repeating words and phrases till I memorized how to speak them.

Edited September 14, 2015 by lostoday

[Thai at Heart]

Sadly learning anything in Thai schools is wrong from the start. Classes are too big and there is on overly heavy reliance on rote learning and teacher centered classrooms.

Rote learning would be fine it all the basics are learned. It is only in the later years of college when anyone asks a student's opinion about anything anyway.

How do you learn English if not by rote? Repetition, say the words over and over again but say them correctly.

How do you learn multiplication tables or any basic concepts of education? I didn't learn Thai by some critical analysis of Asian philosophy. I learned it by repeating words and phrases till I memorized how to speak them.

How many books/texts does a student have to read in a year to pass his or her English tests?

U can learn English by rote, or you can learn English......

[lostoday]

Sadly learning anything in Thai schools is wrong from the start. Classes are too big and there is on overly heavy reliance on rote learning and teacher centered classrooms.

Rote learning would be fine it all the basics are learned. It is only in the later years of college when anyone asks a student's opinion about anything anyway.

How do you learn English if not by rote? Repetition, say the words over and over again but say them correctly.

How do you learn multiplication tables or any basic concepts of education? I didn't learn Thai by some critical analysis of Asian philosophy. I learned it by repeating words and phrases till I memorized how to speak them.

How many books/texts does a student have to read in a year to pass his or her English tests?

U can learn English by rote, or you can learn English......

By speaking words in English over and over again till you can say English words correctly that is called rote learning . The first 20 elements in Chemistry? If you can remember the phrase and know the symbols for the elements then you can memorize the order of the elements.

[Thai at Heart]

Sadly learning anything in Thai schools is wrong from the start. Classes are too big and there is on overly heavy reliance on rote learning and teacher centered classrooms.

Rote learning would be fine it all the basics are learned. It is only in the later years of college when anyone asks a student's opinion about anything anyway.

How do you learn English if not by rote? Repetition, say the words over and over again but say them correctly.

How do you learn multiplication tables or any basic concepts of education? I didn't learn Thai by some critical analysis of Asian philosophy. I learned it by repeating words and phrases till I memorized how to speak them.

How many books/texts does a student have to read in a year to pass his or her English tests?

U can learn English by rote, or you can learn English......

By speaking words in English over and over again till you can say English words correctly that is called rote learning . The first 20 elements in Chemistry? If you can remember the phrase and know the symbols for the elements then you can memorize the order of the elements.

Language particularly English is not a pure subject like maths. Yes, the basics can be learnt rote, but all languages are more than that.

[lostoday]

How many books/texts does a student have to read in a year to pass his or her English tests?

U can learn English by rote, or you can learn English......

By speaking words in English over and over again till you can say English words correctly that is called rote learning . The first 20 elements in Chemistry? If you can remember the phrase and know the symbols for the elements then you can memorize the order of the elements.

Language particularly English is not a pure subject like maths. Yes, the basics can be learnt rote, but all languages are more than that.

Have you never talked to a Thai person? 100 memorized vocabulary words would 100% improvement over 99% of Thai school children. Basic language to the level accomplished by the majority foreign speakers of English is nothing more than rote memorization and practice, practice, practice, rote, rote, rote. Laws of motion, basics of engine maintenance, hand washing.

A bit of hazing is about as important as how long are the skirts of uni girls or shorts on uni boys. The Thai education system is bad because it does not educate in the basics.

How difficult is it to teach someone that peace is a word and unpeace is not a word? Democracy definition. A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives.

It is the basics. Vocabulary and definitions and speech.

Edited September 14, 2015 by lostoday

[maidee]

frustration of the senior when they were juniors years before ?

use section 44 to stop it asap

[lostoday]

frustration of the senior when they were juniors years before ?

use section 44 to stop it asap

You have to keep the validation of age and experience. Changing and redirecting the concept would seem to me a better way to go. Grant privileges to seniors that freshmen don't have. Reward education of freshmen by seniors in positive ways.

[Thai at Heart]

Have you never talked to a Thai person? 100 memorized vocabulary words would 100% improvement over 99% of Thai school children. Basic language to the level accomplished by the majority foreign speakers of English is nothing more than rote memorization and practice, practice, practice, rote, rote, rote. Laws of motion, basics of engine maintenance, hand washing.

A bit of hazing is about as important as how long are the skirts of uni girls or shorts on uni boys. The Thai education system is bad because it does not educate in the basics.

How difficult is it to teach someone that peace is a word and unpeace is not a word? Democracy definition. A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives.

It is the basics. Vocabulary and definitions and speech.

Indeed, when asked how are you? 100% of all Thai's answer "Fine Thankyou, and you?" with a rising tone. They learn this aged 6.

If they learnt to read basic English to a better level, they could go off and read up the definition of democracy themselves, without the need for any prompting. This is the major issue. They learn rote what something means, but never learn how to use a language....And probably woe betide and English teacher diverging from the curriculum and giving any other defintion than the prescribed one for "democracy".

[lostoday]

Have you never talked to a Thai person? 100 memorized vocabulary words would 100% improvement over 99% of Thai school children. Basic language to the level accomplished by the majority foreign speakers of English is nothing more than rote memorization and practice, practice, practice, rote, rote, rote. Laws of motion, basics of engine maintenance, hand washing.

A bit of hazing is about as important as how long are the skirts of uni girls or shorts on uni boys. The Thai education system is bad because it does not educate in the basics.

How difficult is it to teach someone that peace is a word and unpeace is not a word? Democracy definition. A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives.

It is the basics. Vocabulary and definitions and speech.

Indeed, when asked how are you? 100% of all Thai's answer "Fine Thankyou, and you?" with a rising tone. They learn this aged 6.

If they learnt to read basic English to a better level, they could go off and read up the definition of democracy themselves, without the need for any prompting. This is the major issue. They learn rote what something means, but never learn how to use a language....And probably woe betide and English teacher diverging from the curriculum and giving any other defintion than the prescribed one for "democracy".

How many English words does the average Thai child learn in school? Make freshmen do funny things in public places until they can recite 100 English words and definitions in both Thai and English correctly.

[simonuk]

Nobody with the power to change things cares...there's no personal fortune to be made here...a waste of time .

[lostoday]

Nobody with the power to change things cares...there's no personal fortune to be made here...a waste of time .

Once upon a time there was a Thai man that stopped Thais from eating with their hands and enforced the use of spoons and forks and made all the men wear hats and pants and the ladies tops. It is not like Thais have not been known to do things for other than money reasons. Thailand outlawed slavery and opium use both things at a great expense to the powers of that time.

Edited September 14, 2015 by lostoday

[plachon]

Why should juniors be servants to seniors? There is no rational reason for this to happen, none at all.

The primary purpose of universities in Asian societies isn't education; it's to condition students to accept their place in a highly stratified, hierarchical society.

The hazing serves as a way to break the students into this mindset quickly - they've already grown up stewed in it, but may be having unwelcome (by the hierarchy) desires of some personal freedom and individual identity. This cannot be allowed, so the hazing is tacitly encouraged by the elites.

Generally agree with the purpose of hazing, but you've taken the generalization too far by stating "Asian societies", when the problem of hazing and hierarchy-reinforcing rituals is confined to only certain societies in the massive continent called Asia. In Thailand, it is just pursued more rigorously than most, and produces the desired effect in most of the people who graduate from the system, though of late there seem to be increasing numbers of people bucking the system and demanding more political autonomy and freedom of expression. Just look at the case of Pravit at The Nation today. Hence, the need for more "attitude adjustment" and severe disciplining of dissent.....Thailand gets more Orwellian by the day.