Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[GAZZPA]

the scene is looking different

No, it's exactly the same as before; the prosecution never claimed DNA from the defendants was found on the hoe. The only thing that has come from the independent testing of it is that it was, indeed, the murder weapon; so nothing new.

Meanwhile the actual DNA evidence the prosecution is basing their case on is being contested only indirectly by trying to discredit the process that yielded the results, instead of the actual results themselves; which I don't think carries much weight because it's not possible to by mistake or accident arrive at two DNA profiles matching the defendants.

The only thing that would produce a match is a deliberate faking of the results after the two defendants were arrested, and until they can provide any sort of evidence for such thing, IMO, the DNA evidence still stands.

It's a very interesting point you make and on the surface it sounds correct. But not linking the murder weapon to the accused is a serious blow for the persecution for sure. Even if they can prove without doubt that the men had sex with Hannah that does not mean that they killed her, I know how that sounds but it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Also, although I know nothing about the UK pathologist report as it is not allowed to be made public I do know from the press releases that in the UK that they have sent a report back to Thailand as they have "serious concerns" over the pathologist report from Thailand. It is inferred that the information will help the defence, again no now knows what that is but it does create doubt.

It is possible that the DNA tests were not conducted correctly for the samples allegedly found. If this proves to be the case what evidence is left that these b2 actually committed the crime? I assume you at least acknowledge this as a possibility.

All we can hope for is the outcome is the right one and that whoever is truly responsible is brought to justice, if it turns out to be the B2 then so be it but I have to say from the limited information we all have there are some very serious doubts and the prosecution will have a tough time proving their guilt.

[fireplay]

This baffles me....it is so simple...does the DNA match the semen found on the girl. The UK has the semen, why don't they test it? What about the court getting additional evidence before it decides? What on earth is that all about....aren't you supposed to present your case in court?

Overall this has been a shameful advert for Thailand's police and judicial procedures.

The UK has the semen, why don't they test it?

Let me be clear about where I stand.

I think it unlikely the UK has a semen sample. Under normal circumstances, the body would be embalmed before being flown to the UK where the UK autopsies were performed. This will almost for sure have destroyed semen DNA. There is a small chance the RAF might have flown the bodies back without embalming, but I think we would know if this happened.

Assuming we trust the RTP's statements that a rape occurred, and that a semen sample did originally exist (likely, but cannot be uncritically assumed) then there is no logical reason why such a sample should not still exist. There is testimony in court that the semen sample was "used up", and no testimony to the contrary. One prosecution witness when asked about availability of samples for retesting stated that replicated DNA from an intermediate testing state was available. It is curious if the original samples still existed that this would not be mentioned, but it was perhaps considered "not relevant".

If, indeed, a semen sample does still exist, the judges should insist on an independent retesting of it, preferably by a world class international laboratory. If there are cost concerns, I (and I am sure many others) would be very happy to donate towards the cost. I want the truth.

Would it be more likely that dna from the attackers survived under the fingernails in the embalming process? How horrible it sounds i can imagine those wonderful police forensics bums attempting to mop out all the semen but totally overlooking the residue under the nails.

[stephenterry]

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Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

Wait a second. Is this some sort of tactic to keep expert witnesses from testifying? Where are the damn documents? What the hell do the police have over there....this is i'm...utterly speechless.

I really hope this lame excuse doesn't work....

Please more commentary...why don't the defense have this documents already....and why do they need them? To show the lack of a match or what.

Its beyond words to express how outrageous this tactic is being played by the prosecution. Using every tool in their arsenal to stop a fair trial and ultimate justice for the victims

If they can't provide the documentation there is NO substantiated evidence. What will happen is that the documentation will be found after the Australian expert leaves. Pretty obvious ploy. It should be crystal that the rtp will stop at nothing to gain a conviction.

[fireplay]

Follow

45]

Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

Wait a second. Is this some sort of tactic to keep expert witnesses from testifying? Where are the damn documents? What the hell do the police have over there....this is i'm...utterly speechless.

I really hope this lame excuse doesn't work....

Please more commentary...why don't the defense have this documents already....and why do they need them? To show the lack of a match or what.

Its beyond words to express how outrageous this tactic is being played by the prosecution. Using every tool in their arsenal to stop a fair trial and ultimate justice for the victims

If they can't provide the documentation there is NO substantiated evidence. What will happen is that the documentation will be found after the Australian expert leaves. Pretty obvious ploy. It should be crystal that the rtp will stop at nothing to gain a conviction.

So the prosecution dipped in and waved a handful of papers around...but didn't give the judges or defense copies?

Aren't the considered a discovery and needs to be turned over?

[BritTim]

If they can't provide the documentation there is NO substantiated evidence. What will happen is that the documentation will be found after the Australian expert leaves. Pretty obvious ploy. It should be crystal that the rtp will stop at nothing to gain a conviction.

I think it likely the documentation will be produced by the prosecution after the trial ends.

[smedly]

GOLDBUGGY, on 23 Sept 2015 - 06:55, said:

I care about the 2 True Victims in this case which is Hannah and David. Therefore I do not want to see 2 Accused Rapists and Murderers walk free until it is proven beyond a "Reasonable Doubt" they are in fact Innocent. Do you see where they have done that as I don't.

​

I cannot believe you actually typed that - again showing total disregard and ignorance of how a court operates, it is up to the prosecution to prove guilt not the defense to prove innocence which is why we have that very familiar proclamation that everybody has heard and understands (seemingly except you) Innocent until proven guilty

[ABCer]

The "Trial" is going for over a year.

At the end of the day the important things are:

two young innocent people dead

everybody wants Justice done

nobody can tell what is Justice under the circumstances

now we are told the material evidence is

lacking

missing

inconclusive

manipulated

becomes a focus

Meanwhile two young men are kept in chains imprisoned and their future lives under threat.

Questions:

what is a trial here?

what is Justice here?

what have we been focused on so far here?

do we realise we have a problem here?

N.B. Please note I do not say the 2B are guilty or innocent. Nobody can. Maybe we should look for culprits elsewhere??

[sweatalot]

One thing is crystal clear. If the rtp had a DNA match there wouldn't have been all this subterfuge. They would have placed it on the table and let the defence independently test it. It beggars belief that anyone believes the rtp.

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so.

When my memory isn't cheating me they chose not to do so because the RTP wanted to do the "independent" retesting themselves or at least under their control

[smedly]

If they can't provide the documentation there is NO substantiated evidence. What will happen is that the documentation will be found after the Australian expert leaves. Pretty obvious ploy. It should be crystal that the rtp will stop at nothing to gain a conviction.

I think it likely the documentation will be produced by the prosecution after the trial ends.

The prosecution had their chance to present a case, now it seems they are being allowed to interfere with the defense, unheard of in any proceeding that I am aware of, if they have documentation then present it during cross examination of the witness or be quiet and let the defense continue without this sort of kindergarden classroom nonesense......shocking

[JoopJoop]

Is it possible for the defense to call the original investigating lead officer to account.

That initial lead officer was then sent to a silent post in BKK preceding the incompetent and lying Somyot's takeover?

I'm aware he was instructed to silence yet think his initial investigation may just implicate or provide credible information to the case.

I honestly fear a huge miscarriage of justice and this case to fade in several years. I'll be full of rage should it happen leading to my inevitable exit from this country.

Does anyone know if the original investigator can, or will be summoned to appear in court by the defense? He may have credible information?

A tragic loss now compounded by incompetent half wits for a year. I'm aghast and seething on the inside. If I say more I'll be banned again from this forum.

[JLCrab]

So apparently from the witness list, the Defense will be presenting no witnesses -- UK, Thai, or otherwise -- who were at the scene or vicinity of the crimes on the night in question and who who were in the company of the victims who can testify as to the doings of Ms. Witheridge or Mr. Miller in the hours previous to the crimes.

[smedly]

One thing is crystal clear. If the rtp had a DNA match there wouldn't have been all this subterfuge. They would have placed it on the table and let the defence independently test it. It beggars belief that anyone believes the rtp.

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so.

When my memory isn't cheating me they chose not to do so because the RTP wanted to do the "independent" retesting themselves or at least under their control

correct and also with samples that where and always have been inadmissible, the only thing left that could actually be examined was the Hoe and now (IMO) that looks like it was tampered with - with a failed attempt to plant dna evidence

[xylophone]

hoehoe1.jpg

the original hoe below (notice the broken corner ) and hoe in the news clip above.

I do not understand your logic as we only see one side of the hoe at any given time. One side has a broken edge and my guess is the other side isn't broken - so the photo is of the unbroken side and the other photo shows the broken side - simple.

You must be looking at different pictures than I am it is clearly two different hoes , look at the video also 1 hoe is not broken

I agree when looking at the pictures they look different.

But then the big question remains : Why would RTP switch hoes when the whole world is watching ? They know that pictures of the murder weapon has been published all over internet. Then someone comes up with a brilliant idea to swich the hoes and plant some DNA on it? Doesnt make sense.

Oh yes it does!!!! The incompetence of the RTP is well known and has been shown on so many occasions when they have issued statements which are so clearly wrong/stupid, yet they themselves are so stupid that they think they have fooled everyone by these statements!!!!

And on the subject of "hoes", it seems quite remarkable that the RTP position that David was also killed by the hoe, still hasn't been challenged, especially by the UK police/coroner, when it was absolutely clear to all who had seen the photographs that there were "stab like" wounds in the back of his head.

Or has it, and I have missed something?

[AleG]

the scene is looking different

No, it's exactly the same as before; the prosecution never claimed DNA from the defendants was found on the hoe. The only thing that has come from the independent testing of it is that it was, indeed, the murder weapon; so nothing new.

Meanwhile the actual DNA evidence the prosecution is basing their case on is being contested only indirectly by trying to discredit the process that yielded the results, instead of the actual results themselves; which I don't think carries much weight because it's not possible to by mistake or accident arrive at two DNA profiles matching the defendants.

The only thing that would produce a match is a deliberate faking of the results after the two defendants were arrested, and until they can provide any sort of evidence for such thing, IMO, the DNA evidence still stands.

It's a very interesting point you make and on the surface it sounds correct. But not linking the murder weapon to the accused is a serious blow for the persecution for sure. Even if they can prove without doubt that the men had sex with Hannah that does not mean that they killed her, I know how that sounds but it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Also, although I know nothing about the UK pathologist report as it is not allowed to be made public I do know from the press releases that in the UK that they have sent a report back to Thailand as they have "serious concerns" over the pathologist report from Thailand. It is inferred that the information will help the defence, again no now knows what that is but it does create doubt.

It is possible that the DNA tests were not conducted correctly for the samples allegedly found. If this proves to be the case what evidence is left that these b2 actually committed the crime? I assume you at least acknowledge this as a possibility.

All we can hope for is the outcome is the right one and that whoever is truly responsible is brought to justice, if it turns out to be the B2 then so be it but I have to say from the limited information we all have there are some very serious doubts and the prosecution will have a tough time proving their guilt.

Of course I acknowledge the possibility that the tests were not done according to whatever standards one may want to establish; but as I have said repeatedly there's no mishandling of the evidence or errors in the analysis that would yield not one but two matching DNA profiles. The only way that would be possible would be by deliberate malfeasance so that is what the defense needs to do to, IMO, dismiss the evidence.

I'm not going to feel satisfied with what amounts to "Well it could had been wrong, so there".

As for that evidence only proving they had sex with Witheridge, no, it also proves that they lied when they claimed they had nothing to do with anything, and if they lied about that what else did they lie about?

If they did when did that happen and why didn't they tell anyone at any time about it?

Mind you they have also already admitted of having a phone identical to the one that was taken from Miller since the night of the murders, so they just happened to have consensual sex with one of the victims and just happened to "find" the phone of the other?

I was waiting to hear an explanation to the extremely suspicious beheaviour and circumstances of the two defendants but so far I haven't seen anything in that regard, some people have been accused of being involved in the murders on much less grounds than these two.

[AleG]

So apparently from the witness list, the Defense will be presenting no witnesses -- UK, Thai, or otherwise -- who were at the scene or vicinity of the crimes on the night in question and who who were in the company of the victims who can testify as to the doings of Ms. Witheridge or Mr. Miller in the hours previous to the crimes.

Which is odd because I distinctly remember them claiming that they had witnesses that could prove the two defendants innocence, including eye witnesses.

[Crash999]

May be a stupid question but if you grab the handle of something once does your DNA stay there? I was under the impression it had to be some sort of substance like blood or hair or nails or something.

People are making a big deal out of no match to the defendants found on the handle but was any DNA found there at all?

[silent]

Looks like some switching has been going on

For sure, they cleaned it up to show everybody it was a hoe. Nothing makes more sense.

[AleG]

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so.

When my memory isn't cheating me they chose not to do so because the RTP wanted to do the "independent" retesting themselves or at least under their control

"The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so."

The retest was to be done by the Central Institute of Forensic Science, the same one that did the hoe analysis, the same one that is going to, apparently, carry out analysis on one of the victim's clothes.

[MockingJay]

The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so.

When my memory isn't cheating me they chose not to do so because the RTP wanted to do the "independent" retesting themselves or at least under their control

correct and also with samples that where and always have been inadmissible, the only thing left that could actually be examined was the Hoe and now (IMO) that looks like it was tampered with - with a failed attempt to plant dna evidence

Smedly, following in awe yours and posters like Boomerangutang's fight against windmills (i.e. Goldbuggy, Aleg, etc.), I believe you all should either follow Smedly's signature "Do not argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience" and spend all the time wasted on those shills better with your family, kids, friends or simply ignore them. Their endless DNA babble gets on my nerves, plus will our discussions here not even make a dent in the so-called "court proceedings" in a land where money talks and BS walks...

I'll eat my hat if the court lets the two Burmese patsies walk free and I'll eat my entire jeans and boots if the real rapists and murderers would be charged and prosecuted (I'll have difficulties with the steel caps in me boots though)... You and all other truth seekers are good people, but you ware wasting your time here with those shills! They distract your attention away from the daily things that truly matter, just like a crazy monkey sitting on your shoulders.

As soon as no one pays attention to them anymore, they'll just fade away. YOU are providing the stage to host their idiotic performances here. Think about it! Better write a book or something, doing something for yourself or your kids but to provide a platform for people who are obviously blind, deaf and depraved of any logical thinking.

[AGareth2]

the scene is looking different

No, it's exactly the same as before; the prosecution never claimed DNA from the defendants was found on the hoe. The only thing that has come from the independent testing of it is that it was, indeed, the murder weapon; so nothing new.

Meanwhile the actual DNA evidence the prosecution is basing their case on is being contested only indirectly by trying to discredit the process that yielded the results, instead of the actual results themselves; which I don't think carries much weight because it's not possible to by mistake or accident arrive at two DNA profiles matching the defendants.

The only thing that would produce a match is a deliberate faking of the results after the two defendants were arrested, and until they can provide any sort of evidence for such thing, IMO, the DNA evidence still stands.

It's a very interesting point you make and on the surface it sounds correct. But not linking the murder weapon to the accused is a serious blow for the persecution for sure. Even if they can prove without doubt that the men had sex with Hannah that does not mean that they killed her, I know how that sounds but it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Also, although I know nothing about the UK pathologist report as it is not allowed to be made public I do know from the press releases that in the UK that they have sent a report back to Thailand as they have "serious concerns" over the pathologist report from Thailand. It is inferred that the information will help the defence, again no now knows what that is but it does create doubt.

It is possible that the DNA tests were not conducted correctly for the samples allegedly found. If this proves to be the case what evidence is left that these b2 actually committed the crime? I assume you at least acknowledge this as a possibility.

All we can hope for is the outcome is the right one and that whoever is truly responsible is brought to justice, if it turns out to be the B2 then so be it but I have to say from the limited information we all have there are some very serious doubts and the prosecution will have a tough time proving their guilt.

Of course I acknowledge the possibility that the tests were not done according to whatever standards one may want to establish; but as I have said repeatedly there's no mishandling of the evidence or errors in the analysis that would yield not one but two matching DNA profiles. The only way that would be possible would be by deliberate malfeasance so that is what the defense needs to do to, IMO, dismiss the evidence.

I'm not going to feel satisfied with what amounts to "Well it could had been wrong, so there".

As for that evidence only proving they had sex with Witheridge, no, it also proves that they lied when they claimed they had nothing to do with anything, and if they lied about that what else did they lie about?

If they did when did that happen and why didn't they tell anyone at any time about it?

Mind you they have also already admitted of having a phone identical to the one that was taken from Miller since the night of the murders, so they just happened to have consensual sex with one of the victims and just happened to "find" the phone of the other?

I was waiting to hear an explanation to the extremely suspicious beheaviour and circumstances of the two defendants but so far I haven't seen anything in that regard, some people have been accused of being involved in the murders on much less grounds than these two.

Don't think you understood my post

[AleG]

May be a stupid question but if you grab the handle of something once does your DNA stay there? I was under the impression it had to be some sort of substance like blood or hair or nails or something.

People are making a big deal out of no match to the defendants found on the handle but was any DNA found there at all?

I read this paper to inform myself on the matter, from that study the probability of DNA detection under controlled circumstances, no handling by other people, item immediately bagged for protection, was 36%.

From what I know about DNA analysis trace amounts of DNA from one person can be swamped out by larger quantities of other person's DNA also present in larger quantities.

The police had previously said they had only found DNA from Hannah Witheridge on the hoe, the last analysis added DNA from the other victim and a partial DNA from a third man that only partially matches that of one of the defendants so it's quite useless to establish an actual match.

[Chetzee]

malfeasance !!!!!

worth getting up early for PMSL !

[smedly]

I have always been of the opinion that "running man" was wearing Davids shorts, possibly the only clean clothing not stained with blood that he could wear running up the street, they looked wet and far to big for the person wearing them, a dna test would be quite interesting

[AGareth2]

^^ what do you mean by partial match AleG?

[exalll]

The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so.

When my memory isn't cheating me they chose not to do so because the RTP wanted to do the "independent" retesting themselves or at least under their control

correct and also with samples that where and always have been inadmissible, the only thing left that could actually be examined was the Hoe and now (IMO) that looks like it was tampered with - with a failed attempt to plant dna evidence

Smedly, following in awe yours and posters like Boomerangutang's fight against windmills (i.e. Goldbuggy, Aleg, etc.), I believe you all should either follow Smedly's signature "Do not argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience" and spend all the time wasted on those shills better with your family, kids, friends or simply ignore them. Their endless DNA babble gets on my nerves, plus will our discussions here not even make a dent in the so-called "court proceedings" in a land where money talks and BS walks...

I'll eat my hat if the court lets the two Burmese patsies walk free and I'll eat my entire jeans and boots if the real rapists and murderers would be charged and prosecuted (I'll have difficulties with the steel caps in me boots though)... You and all other truth seekers are good people, but you ware wasting your time here with those shills! They distract your attention away from the daily things that truly matter, just like a crazy monkey sitting on your shoulders.

As soon as no one pays attention to them anymore, they'll just fade away. YOU are providing the stage to host their idiotic performances here. Think about it! Better write a book or something, doing something for yourself or your kids but to provide a platform for people who are obviously blind, deaf and depraved of any logical thinking.

There are certainly some bizarre views being expressed here - Goldbuggy, who wants the defence to prove innocence of the accused, rather than the prosecution to prove guilt; and AleG, who similarly wants the defence to prove that the DNA evidence is contaminated, rather than the prosecution to prove that it is not.

In any western country, the case would have been dismissed on any number of points by now. But, like you, Mocking-Jay, I am still expecting a "guilty" verdict.

[sweatalot]

The "Trial" is going for over a year.

At the end of the day the important things are:

two young innocent people dead

everybody wants Justice done

nobody can tell what is Justice under the circumstances

now we are told the material evidence is

lacking

missing

inconclusive

manipulated

becomes a focus

Meanwhile two young men are kept in chains imprisoned and their future lives under threat.

Questions:

what is a trial here?

what is Justice here?

what have we been focused on so far here?

do we realise we have a problem here?

N.B. Please note I do not say the 2B are guilty or innocent. Nobody can. Maybe we should look for culprits elsewhere??

I guess many of those who have been watching this case from the beginning with a clear mind and without bias have a good idea where to look

[Aj Mick]

They did allow the defense to independently test it, the defense refused to do so.

The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so.

When my memory isn't cheating me they chose not to do so because the RTP wanted to do the "independent" retesting themselves or at least under their control

"The did not refuse to do so. They have chosen not to do so."

The retest was to be done by the Central Institute of Forensic Science, the same one that did the hoe analysis, the same one that is going to, apparently, carry out analysis on one of the victim's clothes.

Yeah, yeah, but the fact remains that the defence has chosen not to have the retest done (on evidence that they can probably discredit without expending resources on doing so). They have not refused to do so.

Now, if you would answer, rather than deflect, the questions that have been put to you, to prove your bona fide and sincerity. Your failure to do so casts you as a duplicitous hypocrite with ulterior motives.

[sweatalot]

Oh yes it does!!!! The incompetence of the RTP is well known and has been shown on so many occasions when they have issued statements which are so clearly wrong/stupid, yet they themselves are so stupid that they think they have fooled everyone by these statements!!!!

And on the subject of "hoes", it seems quite remarkable that the RTP position that David was also killed by the hoe, still hasn't been challenged, especially by the UK police/coroner, when it was absolutely clear to all who had seen the photographs that there were "stab like" wounds in the back of his head.

Or has it, and I have missed something?

There is the coroner's report that the defense gave to the judge and which hopefully will be published next time

[Crash999]

May be a stupid question but if you grab the handle of something once does your DNA stay there? I was under the impression it had to be some sort of substance like blood or hair or nails or something.

People are making a big deal out of no match to the defendants found on the handle but was any DNA found there at all?

I read this paper to inform myself on the matter, from that study the probability of DNA detection under controlled circumstances, no handling by other people, item immediately bagged for protection, was 36%.

From what I know about DNA analysis trace amounts of DNA from one person can be swamped out by larger quantities of other person's DNA also present in larger quantities.

The police had previously said they had only found DNA from Hannah Witheridge on the hoe, the last analysis added DNA from the other victim and a partial DNA from a third man that only partially matches that of one of the defendants so it's quite useless to establish an actual match.

Very interesting paper thanks. Given the 36% in controlled circumstances it seems that 'in the wild' chances would be quite less. So the absence of DNA doesn't prove anything either way.

Wonder if this will be presented clearly in court. Given the confusion that seems to exist around DNA evidence and the eagerness for both sides to spin the story in their direction it seems like this sort of info could be twisted.

[DM07]

What worries me most, is that -even with all the blunders and fumbles- the B2's fate is already sealed!

I already want to vomit into my keyboard, just thinking about the "victory"- parade by some of the most loathsome individuals on TV.

How can you seriously want to ignore the fact, that DNA of the 2 victims on the handle of the hoe (indicating, that they actually handled it!), but no DNA of the alleged killers, who -following the argumentation of the RTP- hacked and slashed 2 people to death with it? (Edit) Which by the way totally puts to rest the idea, that David and Hannah were engaged in gentle love- making, when they were attacked from behind!

How can you seriously still talk about a "strong case" by the RTP, when all there is, is some DNA, allegedly by the B2, but all you have is the "word" of a bunch of known corrupt liars?

How can you seriously look at a bunch of missing evidence, never looked at CCTV- footage, vague (to say the least) "evidence" and a bunch of facts, that just exploded under the RTP's @$$es and still not be convinced, this is a complete and utter stitch up?

Let me answer a question, that Balo asked earlier: why would the RTP switch the hoes under the eyes of the whole world?

Answer: because they don't give a sh1t- the outcome is long clear, even if the would introduce a soft cushion as the murder- weapon!

Makes me sick to the core!

I was just back to my homecountry and I found it very, very difficult, to explain this whole farce to people, without apologizing, for myself, living in Thailand!

I really pitty the parents of all 4 victims (yes, there are four of them!)!

This is such a farce!

(sorry...just had to get this off my chest)