Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[thailandchilli]

Very interesting shot of running man from a still that was taken from the movie shown at the trial by the Gait expert. Shows just how close he was to the mystery couple.

[AGareth2]

Thank you for re-opening the thread

[StealthEnergiser]

The RTP have claim from the arrest of B2 or earlier that a rape took place and dna sperm samples from the victim matched the accused, they have been unable to produce that evidence

It now turns out that a report from a UK pathologist says there is no evidence on the victims body that supports the alledged rape claim by RTP, that means no evidence inside or outside her body.

That means the whole RTP and prosecution case is based on lies and deception, I can conclude nothing less

The crime scene was staged (which I always believed) and the case against B2 is a fabrication which with safety I now believe also, I have also never said in the past that I thought B2 were innocent, I always stated that I simply hadn't seen anything credible it the prosecution case that pointed to guilt - I am now firmly convinced that B2 are innocent - 100% certain

Looks like the Burmese Government investigation team were correct also.

Thursday, December 18, 2014

BURMA

Koh Tao Suspects Innocent: Govt Investigation Team

RANGOON — A team formed by the Burmese government to investigate the Koh Tao case has announced that it is confident the two Burmese nationals accused of the double murder are innocent of the crime.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/koh-tao-suspects-innocent-govt-investigation-team.html

[fab99]

Any chance of sticking with the court case and leaving the mud slinging out this time round?

Agree, let's try again to keep the thread respectful and clear of aggression, the thread is useful to aggregate the different sources of information around, Twitter, Facebook and newspapers that authorize links. Let's keep the comments and speculations to a minimum, I don't want the thread closed again, but I guess it is not the view of everyone here.

[thailandchilli]

Interesting from yesterdays hearing, the UK police are going to be making a complaint to Thai Authorities:

“UK police said they have never confirmed that it was David’s phone. They will complain to the Thai government on this issue,” Hall said.

http://m.irrawaddy.org/burma/defense-cites-serious-shortcomings-in-koh-tao-murder-probe-as-trial-continues.html

[StealthEnergiser]

[BritTim]

Follow

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Disturbed Koh Tao prosecution question to migrant witness suggest Rakhine people often kill people hitting over head https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153236354015677&id=675065676 …

One of the comments to that post asks if the defense lawyers are allowed to take notes. That is an interesting question. Who knows the answer?

[thailandchilli]

So current state of play of some of the more recent revelations that have been reported I'm sure I've missed a few, links for all the below available for reasonable posters:

UK Coroner - No evidence of the rape of Hannah

UK Coroner No bite marks on Hannah's breast despite the Thai pathologist saying there was in their report which the UK coroner had a copy of.

Documents withheld from court showing the DNA chain of custody on DNA testing, rendering the expert witness with no means to testify on it.

Hannah's clothes not forensically tested and not presented in court or records of where they are?

Hannah's underwear not forensically tested

Hoe with no DNA of accused but ample of the victims from touch DNA traces which take a substantial amount of time to occur

Hair found clutched in Hannah's hand gone?

Clothes of victims found on beach not forensically tested

DNA retesting of cigarette butts not possible because they are not available

Torture testimony from the B2 as yet remain un-investigated yet confessions apparently still being used in court

This is not what any mentally stable person can deem to be a fair trial taking place with such discrepancies in evidence and testimony. There is more than enough reasonable doubt for a not guilty verdict and a complete re-haul of the Thai Judicial system!

Edited September 25, 2015 by thailandchilli

[BritTim]

While an interesting clip, I think it should have been made clear that this was from last year, and has nothing to do with the current trial. At the time, the Thai authorities were planning a rushed trial before the defense had an opportunity to prepare, and presumably a quick conviction. Media interest induced them to think better of this approach.

We still do not know when the additional witness testimony will take place.

[StealthEnergiser]

While an interesting clip, I think it should have been made clear that this was from last year, and has nothing to do with the current trial. At the time, the Thai authorities were planning a rushed trial before the defense had an opportunity to prepare, and presumably a quick conviction. Media interest induced them to think better of this approach.

We still do not know when the additional witness testimony will take place.

Yes of course I was just referring to the Burmese Government findings last year I should have stated that thanks BritTim

[Wifflewaffle]

I wonder if they also asked Andy where the passport the Defense magically produced in December came from ? Why he told everyone in his fundraising page the B2 had been in Thailand for 3 years when in fact this is a lie.

below are three different links confirming it ,they had in a interview with Charlie Campbell frim time.com and in the court said that they were here for 2 years.

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2015/07/07/trial-of-two-murder-suspects-in-thailand-starts-this-week/

https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-murders-zaw-linn-details-police-torture-burma-thailand-myanmar/56989

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

3 years or 2 years? Why is this so important to you? Does it have any real bearing on this case? IIRC some cop said after the B2 were arrested that it was a few months. So, who is right and does it really matter?

As for the passport, well... Zaw Lin testified in court that another worker had taken his passport to get the visa extended at the time of his arrest on October 2nd and therefore he was unable to produce it when arrested. They didn't need to ask Andy as Zaw Lin spoke for himself.

I don't know what is going on in the courthouse so I can't answer that, but I do know Zaw Lin admitted to paying a broker 5000thb to come to Thailand which he didn't need to do if he had a passport,

and you will have to ask Andy why he has told everyone 3 years, and yes the IIRC cop did say a few months but as they are undocumented workers it would be hard to know when they came to Thailand this was most probably what the B2 told the police.

[BritTim]

How much weight will the judges place on the fact that, at least, parts of the Thai postmortem report were falsified? The parts that were clearly false (backed up by photo evidence from the UK postmortem) are highly significant. They call into question the possibility that at least two of the three claimed semen samples could ever have existed. Considering all three claimed samples have now disappeared been used up, I cannot see how any rational person could conclude that claimed DNA results from them can be accepted.

[fritzzz25]

I wonder if they also asked Andy where the passport the Defense magically produced in December came from ? Why he told everyone in his fundraising page the B2 had been in Thailand for 3 years when in fact this is a lie.

below are three different links confirming it ,they had in a interview with Charlie Campbell frim time.com and in the court said that they were here for 2 years.

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2015/07/07/trial-of-two-murder-suspects-in-thailand-starts-this-week/

https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-murders-zaw-linn-details-police-torture-burma-thailand-myanmar/56989

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

3 years or 2 years? Why is this so important to you? Does it have any real bearing on this case? IIRC some cop said after the B2 were arrested that it was a few months. So, who is right and does it really matter?

As for the passport, well... Zaw Lin testified in court that another worker had taken his passport to get the visa extended at the time of his arrest on October 2nd and therefore he was unable to produce it when arrested. They didn't need to ask Andy as Zaw Lin spoke for himself.

I don't know what is going on in the courthouse so I can't answer that, but I do know Zaw Lin admitted to paying a broker 5000thb to come to Thailand which he didn't need to do if he had a passport,

and you will have to ask Andy why he has told everyone 3 years, and yes the IIRC cop did say a few months but as they are undocumented workers it would be hard to know when they came to Thailand this was most probably what the B2 told the police.

Were you there to see Zaw pay the cash to a broker? Are you the broker ? How do you "know" he paid a broker? Or did you read it somewhere like a poster who is an "expert" in gait analysis?

[Wifflewaffle]

I wonder if they also asked Andy where the passport the Defense magically produced in December came from ? Why he told everyone in his fundraising page the B2 had been in Thailand for 3 years when in fact this is a lie.

below are three different links confirming it ,they had in a interview with Charlie Campbell frim time.com and in the court said that they were here for 2 years.

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2015/07/07/trial-of-two-murder-suspects-in-thailand-starts-this-week/

https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-murders-zaw-linn-details-police-torture-burma-thailand-myanmar/56989

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

3 years or 2 years? Why is this so important to you? Does it have any real bearing on this case? IIRC some cop said after the B2 were arrested that it was a few months. So, who is right and does it really matter?

As for the passport, well... Zaw Lin testified in court that another worker had taken his passport to get the visa extended at the time of his arrest on October 2nd and therefore he was unable to produce it when arrested. They didn't need to ask Andy as Zaw Lin spoke for himself.

I don't know what is going on in the courthouse so I can't answer that, but I do know Zaw Lin admitted to paying a broker 5000thb to come to Thailand which he didn't need to do if he had a passport,

and you will have to ask Andy why he has told everyone 3 years, and yes the IIRC cop did say a few months but as they are undocumented workers it would be hard to know when they came to Thailand this was most probably what the B2 told the police.

Were you there to see Zaw pay the cash to a broker? Are you the broker ? How do you "know" he paid a broker? Or did you read it somewhere like a poster who is an "expert" in gait analysis?

Read the time article above he admits it himself. thats where i have got the information from.

[AleG]

Very strange nothing is mentioned of all the stab wounds to David's neck, throat, arm and the defensive wounds to his hands. Is this something that the defense wanted to bring up when it got the photos from the prosecution. Has the focus only been on Hannah's autopsy?

The focus is on that because the defense wants to cast doubt on the rape, because the UK autopsy didn't reveal rape related lesions. The Thai report doesn't mention lesions, only mentions evidence of rape and specifies semen traces, which are of course evidence of rape.

[RWA]

Very interesting shot of running man from a still that was taken from the movie shown at the trial by the Gait expert. Shows just how close he was to the mystery couple.

so this couple here are those shadows of "invisible people" from the short video shot we all have seen earlier and pondering upon?

[BritTim]

Very strange nothing is mentioned of all the stab wounds to David's neck, throat, arm and the defensive wounds to his hands. Is this something that the defense wanted to bring up when it got the photos from the prosecution. Has the focus only been on Hannah's autopsy?

While not 100% clear, I think the Norfolk coroner only had access to Hannah's autopsy results. There have been no reports of any communication with the Jersey coroner for David's results. The only photographic evidence available on David's injuries (given the Thai authorities' "very limited budget for crime scene and autopsy photos") are those of third parties taken on the morning of September 15.

[thailandchilli]

Very strange nothing is mentioned of all the stab wounds to David's neck, throat, arm and the defensive wounds to his hands. Is this something that the defense wanted to bring up when it got the photos from the prosecution. Has the focus only been on Hannah's autopsy?

The focus is on that because the defense wants to cast doubt on the rape, because the UK autopsy didn't reveal rape related lesions. The Thai report doesn't mention lesions, only mentions evidence of rape and specifies semen traces, which are of course evidence of rape.

What semen? The semen the DNA match that has been reported by the RTP with no evidence to back it up?

And even if there was semen there whose is it? Oh the RTP said it belongs to the B2, but again no evidence to back that up.

If there was semen how is that evidence of rape.

Jonathan Head ‏@pakhead Sep 22Na Mueang, Surat Thani

@JQP6 Defence have requested these documents. Without them no DNA test can be credible. Hopefully the judges understand this.

Jonathan Head ‏@pakhead Sep 22Na Mueang, Surat Thani

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

[IslandLover]

I wonder if they also asked Andy where the passport the Defense magically produced in December came from ? Why he told everyone in his fundraising page the B2 had been in Thailand for 3 years when in fact this is a lie.

below are three different links confirming it ,they had in a interview with Charlie Campbell frim time.com and in the court said that they were here for 2 years.

http://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2015/07/07/trial-of-two-murder-suspects-in-thailand-starts-this-week/

https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-murders-zaw-linn-details-police-torture-burma-thailand-myanmar/56989

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

3 years or 2 years? Why is this so important to you? Does it have any real bearing on this case? IIRC some cop said after the B2 were arrested that it was a few months. So, who is right and does it really matter?

As for the passport, well... Zaw Lin testified in court that another worker had taken his passport to get the visa extended at the time of his arrest on October 2nd and therefore he was unable to produce it when arrested. They didn't need to ask Andy as Zaw Lin spoke for himself.

I don't know what is going on in the courthouse so I can't answer that, but I do know Zaw Lin admitted to paying a broker 5000thb to come to Thailand which he didn't need to do if he had a passport,

and you will have to ask Andy why he has told everyone 3 years, and yes the IIRC cop did say a few months but as they are undocumented workers it would be hard to know when they came to Thailand this was most probably what the B2 told the police.

Were you there to see Zaw pay the cash to a broker? Are you the broker ? How do you "know" he paid a broker? Or did you read it somewhere like a poster who is an "expert" in gait analysis?

I thought Wei Phyo was the one who entered Thailand illegally and paid a broker, etc., etc.

[Patsycat]

Do we really need to read all the details. Can you not subdue it a bit. Please. This is a young girl, loved by her family, Who are sitting there today. Trying to comprehend what happend to her and who did it. Have a bit of decorum.

The way some of you are talking about her, is disgusting.

Talking about her private parts etc, in such horrible ways, how dare you?

And yes, Stealth Enigiser, i am talking to you, This is not a TV <deleted> show. This is real life. How dare you.

This is a person, who was loved.

[Wifflewaffle]

"My father died when I was very young,” says Zaw Lin, “so l left school aged 8 and started helping my mother in the fields when I was 10.” Facing worsening poverty, around two years ago he paid a broker 5,000 baht ($150) to transport him to Koh Tao,

http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

[thailandchilli]

Do we really need to read all the details. Can you not subdue it a bit. Please. This is a young girl, loved by her family, Who are sitting there today. Trying to comprehend what happend to her and who did it. Have a bit of decorum.

The way some of you are talking about her, is disgusting.

Talking about her private parts etc, in such horrible ways, how dare you?

I'm sorry I don't see anyone talking about her private parts and if they did I'm sure the post would be quite rightly reported and deleted by mods.

[BritTim]

Do we really need to read all the details. Can you not subdue it a bit. Please. This is a young girl, loved by her family, Who are sitting there today. Trying to comprehend what happend to her and who did it. Have a bit of decorum.

The way some of you are talking about her, is disgusting.

Talking about her private parts etc, in such horrible ways, how dare you?

And yes, Stealth Enigiser, i am talking to you, This is not a TV f.ing show. This is real life. How dare you.

This is a person, who was loved.

This whole case is disgusting, and I agree that we should try to discuss details with as much delicacy as possible.

When the Thai autopsy results were fabricated in certain respects that are highly significant, it is really difficult to discuss the ramifications without some mention of what the lies in that report were.

What happened to Hannah and David was a tragedy. They cannot be brought back. Some of us want to avoid a second tragedy: two innocent Burmese kids being convicted of a brutal rape and double murder they did not commit. Like it or not, the media (including social media) are an important part of the battle to ensure the Thai authorities are pressured into doing the right thing.

[Patsycat]

Vulva, vagina, nipples etc. like that stealth person wrote.

It is wrong to write such things.

Post 730

Edited September 25, 2015 by Patsycat

[Patsycat]

I also want to avoid the tradgedy of those young men being done for something which is apparent they didn't do.

But, i would just like the posters not to go into graphic details too much.

I have been trying to unsee those photos too.

[stephenterry]

Interesting from yesterdays hearing, the UK police are going to be making a complaint to Thai Authorities:

“UK police said they have never confirmed that it was David’s phone. They will complain to the Thai government on this issue,” Hall said.

http://m.irrawaddy.org/burma/defense-cites-serious-shortcomings-in-koh-tao-murder-probe-as-trial-continues.html

Two things: yet another perjured police statement in court. Is lying endemic to RTP? And about time the UK police got off their backsides and start to make waves. Demand an apology and an immediate investigation. But it had to take the courage and humanity of the Norfolk coroner to kick-start it, didn't it?

[Eirene]

Vulva, vagina, nipples etc. like that stealth person wrote.

It is wrong to write such things.

Post 730

Stealth did not write the report the coroner did. This is a very important part of the case as it should throw the whole case out the window.

[BritTim]

Vulva, vagina, nipples etc. like that stealth person wrote.

It is wrong to write such things.

Post 730

Unfortunately, autopsy results need to use very direct and unambiguous language. Given the gravity of the situation, and the Thai authorities attempt to falsify the results to frame innocent Burmese, I support Stealth Engineer's decision to post the relevant parts of the false report.

I am really sorry if that upsets you. The whole case upsets me, and I am raging inside at the shocking behavior of the RTP in making it necessary for any of this discussion to be taking place. You cannot just take two random migrant workers and concoct a cock and bull case against them to get your bosses off your back. It is outrageous, and they should not be allowed to get away with it because we are too delicate to expose the fraud.

[StealthEnergiser]

Vulva, vagina, nipples etc. like that stealth person wrote.

It is wrong to write such things.

Post 730

Deeply Sorry Patsycat

It is really better not to follow this I realise it must be upsetting I have a son and daughter also similar ages and I honesty don't think i could handle what these families have gone through.

So many discrepancies have been found by social media we all justice and the truth we don't want to see 2 innocent men sentenced to death we all want the truth.

the autopsy report is horrible to look at I understand.

I have no intentions of being disrespectful .

sorry again

[BritTim]

I'm no autopsy specialist, but having read the above I'm mystified by the 'toxicology' findings for both of the deceased, especially David's. I always thought alcohol was a toxic substance, as it impairs the faculties of the consumer, but in both reports there is no mention of this being found? This then leads me to wonder what/whether a professional autopsy was ever carried out. I seem to remember a prosecution witness or someone speaking on behalf of the police saying that David appeared intoxicated, when commenting on a CCTV clip. Can anyone expand on this discrepancy and explain what's not obvious to me, please.

I am not a specialist either. The whole autopsy report is highly suspect, as already pointed out. I take the lack of mention of alcohol in the summary to mean that it was not present in amounts that would have a significant bearing on cause of death. Most likely, the actual amounts would have been noted somewhere in the autopsy details.