"not to lump everyone together who has a weight problem"

[up-country_sinclair]

Goodness me, when ever will people stop trying to blame other things for their own behavior?

Perpetual victims will never stop. It's their raison d'etre

[Briggsy]

Fat people need tough love. I advocate higher taxes and higher plane fares for fat people as they cost the average taxpayer higher costs in health care and take up more seat space and use more fuel on planes.

Regrettably this will not happen.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Briggsy

[namatjira]

Who cares about fat people ? That's their problem not mine, I am no rocket scientist but surprise surprise if I eat crap food I get fat, it's a mental problem.....you do not get fat eating a balanced diet and exercising, if you are of the mind set that you need 2 liters of Coke a day and hamburgers or whatever stupid food you desire....then you will be fat.

[namatjira]

Oh my Buddha, actually in the South Pacific islands fat people are greatly admired. I was always astonished to find young Samoan men with physiques like Arnold Schwarzenegger introducing me to their farang girlfriends, most of the time these girls weighed about 120 kilo and had the bingo wings, the bingo wings by the way are so called when fat ladies shout bingo in the bingo hall the rolls of fat under their arms appear as flapping wings...hence the term ...bingo wings...but I digress .

In the Samoan and Tongan culture the only fat person on the island was the king, because he sat around all day and ate pigs and did nothing, the common people would be out fishing and hunting and had little food...therefore in their eyes fat people are

Ike royalty......

[namatjira]

So there you go, if you are fat and resemble something close to a pig go to Tonga or Samoa and you will be welcome as a handsome man, or you can live your life in Thailand where if you flash the cash you will still be a handsome man.

[Jingthing]

Referring back to the Washington Post linked before:

People of normal weight sometimes like to take credit for avoiding obesity, suggesting that fatness arises from some combination of gluttony and sloth. As all those medical experts on Internet comment sections recommend, just eat less and exercise more!

I think that is CLASSIC and basically sums up what 90 percent of this "I'm Too Fat" forum has devolved into. It's basically an expanded version of internet comment sections where every time anyone brings up some of the complexities of obesity, they get drowned out by intolerant, moralistic preachers who act like they are medical experts, but are actually anything but.

It really is a shame.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Jingthing

[chiang mai]

Fat is a money making industry, pharma's make money from selling pills to avoid it, fitness centres make loads of money from selling memberships to avoid it, the food companies make billions from marketing products to reduce it and, critically, many prestigious individuals make large fortunes from writing books AND NEWSPAPER ARTICLES to help fat people feel better about themselves. Sadly none of those industries need to be reliable or true in order to make money, at the expense of the reader/customer who is led to believe all of it. I liken it all to the patient having a cold but believing he's got a broken leg!

[h90]

It's not rocket science so stop making excuses and looking for other reasons why, simply, if you're fat and overweight, stop eating and exercise more, end of!

About the way it is for most people.

I would add my own opinion, and say if you can't then seek help. This is very do-able.

unless you are sick, everyone can. The question is if someone want.

It comes with some sacrifice, specially on the beginning. Do you want to sacrifice the food you like for your body shape? Or better enjoy the food and be fat?

Be slim and eat burgers, ice cream, cake and microwave pizza + wash it down with coke just won't work.

So either slim and the lean pork with a glass of water and a cucumber or fat and all you want.....everyone can choose.

I would say wrong, the nature of addiction seems to rob people of personal choice. there are times when people need help.

As to what you wrote in an earlier posting about normal, normal is what maintains a healthy body weight and is between 1500 and 2000 calories a day, that roughly equates to 3 square meals a day, made up of protein, complex carbohydrates and fruit/veg. That's an accepted norm in the west. If someone is leaving the table still hungry they haven't eaten enough, or enough of the right food, probably not enough complex carbs.

Logically either a person has some medical condition that is causing them to overeat, or has some sort of overeating problem. It can be both. It can be one or the other. It can't be neither.

You write, "If it is a small problem, I would say DON'T treat it. Live with it.". I would say sometimes but definitely not as a rule, small problems can have big implications, and what starts small can worsen with age. Early intervention often saves a bigger problem somewhere down the line "a stitch in time saves nine".

No if you were fat before, the body tries to regain the weight, so you'll have to leave the table hungry. And even more while you diet it away. Of course that feeling can be reduced by reducing carbohydrates....eating just protein and fat, but that makes the food tasting not so good.

To be hungry and gain some fat isn't a medical condition.....It is complete normal, without it Europeans wouldn't have survived the winter. Just the around the clock availability of nutrition rich food makes it a problem.

It isn't a problem to be hungry.......that doesn't hurt....

If your body is just tuned down a bit, you want to eat medications, for the rest of your life? I don't. I would rather get to handle it in a natural way than pop in 10 different medications every day. That is of course only value if we are speaking about a very small one....not a big problem.

[robblok]

Referring back to the Washington Post linked before:

People of normal weight sometimes like to take credit for avoiding obesity, suggesting that fatness arises from some combination of gluttony and sloth. As all those medical experts on Internet comment sections recommend, just eat less and exercise more!

I think that is CLASSIC and basically sums up what 90 percent of this "I'm Too Fat" forum has devolved into. It's basically an expanded version of internet comment sections where every time anyone brings up some of the complexities of obesity, they get drowned out by intolerant, moralistic preachers who act like they are medical experts, but are actually anything but.

It really is a shame.

Some might argue by constantly acting like its an impossible task and saying that its all in the genes your insulting people like me who do keep it in check even though they have a the same bad genes as obese people.

Others might argue that in most of your posts you seem to deflect responsibility away from obese people.

Fact is most of your posts are about the poor obese people who are trapped by their genes and environment and cant be helped and certainly not be blamed for being overweight by 100lbs.

Fact is that even with bad genes you don't have to be real obese. Sure you will be heavier as average but if you just eat normal you won't be super obese. That only happens to those who really let go.

I feel you got a real defeatist attitude, while others like me have a can do attitude. Guess who are more likely to succeed. Can't wait for it to be 2016 then i can rub it in your face that i kept the weight off 5 years showing long term results. I can still remember you telling me I did not count because i did not reach the 5 years yet.

Edited October 19, 2015 by robblok

[h90]

Fat is a money making industry, pharma's make money from selling pills to avoid it, fitness centres make loads of money from selling memberships to avoid it, the food companies make billions from marketing products to reduce it and, critically, many prestigious individuals make large fortunes from writing books AND NEWSPAPER ARTICLES to help fat people feel better about themselves. Sadly none of those industries need to be reliable or true in order to make money, at the expense of the reader/customer who is led to believe all of it. I liken it all to the patient having a cold but believing he's got a broken leg!

yes and mostly they are selling dreams....magic pills, magic food, magic diets.....instead of just telling the true. The trick they people into believing if they spend some money for diet products they get slimmer.

[h90]

Referring back to the Washington Post linked before:

People of normal weight sometimes like to take credit for avoiding obesity, suggesting that fatness arises from some combination of gluttony and sloth. As all those medical experts on Internet comment sections recommend, just eat less and exercise more!

I think that is CLASSIC and basically sums up what 90 percent of this "I'm Too Fat" forum has devolved into. It's basically an expanded version of internet comment sections where every time anyone brings up some of the complexities of obesity, they get drowned out by intolerant, moralistic preachers who act like they are medical experts, but are actually anything but.

It really is a shame.

Some might argue by constantly acting like its an impossible task and saying that its all in the genes your insulting people like me who do keep it in check even though they have a the same bad genes as obese people.

Others might argue that in most of your posts you seem to deflect responsibility away from obese people.

Fact is most of your posts are about the poor obese people who are trapped by their genes and environment and cant be helped and certainly not be blamed for being overweight by 100lbs.

Fact is that even with bad genes you don't have to be real obese. Sure you will be heavier as average but if you just eat normal you won't be super obese. That only happens to those who really let go.

I feel you got a real defeatist attitude, while others like me have a can do attitude. Guess who are more likely to succeed. Can't wait for it to be 2016 then i can rub it in your face that i kept the weight off 5 years showing long term results. I can still remember you telling me I did not count because i did not reach the 5 years yet.

Look back 50 years.....almost no one was fat in Europe (specially country side) and they had exactly the same genetic as people now. What was different: Level of exercise and amount of food they ate. And they didn't eat particularly healthy.

[mommysboy]

Referring back to the Washington Post linked before:

People of normal weight sometimes like to take credit for avoiding obesity, suggesting that fatness arises from some combination of gluttony and sloth. As all those medical experts on Internet comment sections recommend, just eat less and exercise more!

I think that is CLASSIC and basically sums up what 90 percent of this "I'm Too Fat" forum has devolved into. It's basically an expanded version of internet comment sections where every time anyone brings up some of the complexities of obesity, they get drowned out by intolerant, moralistic preachers who act like they are medical experts, but are actually anything but.

It really is a shame.

Some might argue by constantly acting like its an impossible task and saying that its all in the genes your insulting people like me who do keep it in check even though they have a the same bad genes as obese people.

Others might argue that in most of your posts you seem to deflect responsibility away from obese people.

Fact is most of your posts are about the poor obese people who are trapped by their genes and environment and cant be helped and certainly not be blamed for being overweight by 100lbs.

Fact is that even with bad genes you don't have to be real obese. Sure you will be heavier as average but if you just eat normal you won't be super obese. That only happens to those who really let go.

I feel you got a real defeatist attitude, while others like me have a can do attitude. Guess who are more likely to succeed. Can't wait for it to be 2016 then i can rub it in your face that i kept the weight off 5 years showing long term results. I can still remember you telling me I did not count because i did not reach the 5 years yet.

Look back 50 years.....almost no one was fat in Europe (specially country side) and they had exactly the same genetic as people now. What was different: Level of exercise and amount of food they ate. And they didn't eat particularly healthy.

The problem 50 years ago was too little food, now it's too much. But unfortunately, it is not so easy to deal with on a personal level and the advice from yesteryear probably doesn't cut. It's easier to go without when supply is limited, but the damn stuff is simply everywhere you turn, and so sugary.

No I don't see overweight people as stupid, weak or lazy. I don't buy in to bad genes explanation either, and don't accept that some people just have to look at a cake to put on weight. Sorry I don't mean to offend.

I feel sure for most it really is about realising just how much they eat. Their stomach has become desensitized over time, and it really is like an addict wanting a bigger and bigger hit. It's easy to disguise it by taking the opposite side and becoming the fitness champion, but this is not a solution it keeps you in the problem only from the other side, the challenge is in eating a normal amount of food, doing reasonable exercise.

I imagine a strict calorie controlled diet is the first requirement to eliminate visceral fat and hopefully get the stomach back to normal proportions. And I would think logically, the course of action after that is a diet based around good quality carbs which are filling, eg, porridge and spuds.

Part of the problem is also the lousy advice that has been given regarding spuds and bread, these are in fact great fillers.

[h90]

Referring back to the Washington Post linked before:

I think that is CLASSIC and basically sums up what 90 percent of this "I'm Too Fat" forum has devolved into. It's basically an expanded version of internet comment sections where every time anyone brings up some of the complexities of obesity, they get drowned out by intolerant, moralistic preachers who act like they are medical experts, but are actually anything but.

It really is a shame.

Some might argue by constantly acting like its an impossible task and saying that its all in the genes your insulting people like me who do keep it in check even though they have a the same bad genes as obese people.

Others might argue that in most of your posts you seem to deflect responsibility away from obese people.

Fact is most of your posts are about the poor obese people who are trapped by their genes and environment and cant be helped and certainly not be blamed for being overweight by 100lbs.

Fact is that even with bad genes you don't have to be real obese. Sure you will be heavier as average but if you just eat normal you won't be super obese. That only happens to those who really let go.

I feel you got a real defeatist attitude, while others like me have a can do attitude. Guess who are more likely to succeed. Can't wait for it to be 2016 then i can rub it in your face that i kept the weight off 5 years showing long term results. I can still remember you telling me I did not count because i did not reach the 5 years yet.

Look back 50 years.....almost no one was fat in Europe (specially country side) and they had exactly the same genetic as people now. What was different: Level of exercise and amount of food they ate. And they didn't eat particularly healthy.

The problem 50 years ago was too little food, now it's too much. But unfortunately, it is not so easy to deal with on a personal level and the advice from yesteryear probably doesn't cut. It's easier to go without when supply is limited, but the damn stuff is simply everywhere you turn, and so sugary.

No I don't see overweight people as stupid, weak or lazy. I don't buy in to bad genes explanation either, and don't accept that some people just have to look at a cake to put on weight. Sorry I don't mean to offend.

I feel sure for most it really is about realising just how much they eat. Their stomach has become desensitized over time, and it really is like an addict wanting a bigger and bigger hit. It's easy to disguise it by taking the opposite side and becoming the fitness champion, but this is not a solution it keeps you in the problem only from the other side, the challenge is in eating a normal amount of food, doing reasonable exercise.

I imagine a strict calorie controlled diet is the first requirement to eliminate visceral fat and hopefully get the stomach back to normal proportions. And I would think logically, the course of action after that is a diet based around good quality carbs which are filling, eg, porridge and spuds.

Part of the problem is also the lousy advice that has been given regarding spuds and bread, these are in fact great fillers.

I agree about half....

50 years ago (in my country) on the country side was enough food, no shortage on lard, milk, eggs and bread.

Why is taking the opposite side and becoming the fitness champion not a solution......I would say it is the perfect solution. Being fit, having muscles, good joints and heart is only positive, or?

I would also say there is no "normal" amount of food....what is normal for me, might be way too much (or too less) for you. Everyone need to find out what is normal for themself.

I think it is easier to loose weight with a very low carb diet, but of course it will work with porridge and spuds. That is just a question which way is easier.

[Briggsy]

When my BMI hit 23.9, I made a conscious decision to exercise regularly and eat in moderation with a lot of fruit and veg. I have stuck to this by using self-discipline. It has paid dividends.

I notice obesity and lack of self-discipline in all aspects of people's lives have a large degree of correlation.

[Jingthing]

...

I feel you got a real defeatist attitude, while others like me have a can do attitude. Guess who are more likely to succeed. Can't wait for it to be 2016 then i can rub it in your face that i kept the weight off 5 years showing long term results. I can still remember you telling me I did not count because i did not reach the 5 years yet.

Such extreme PERSONAL hostility towards me personally.

That is really pathetic, dude. You do realize I don't care in the slightest what you think of me as I have no respect at all for the tactics you have used here over the years: endless fat shaming, endless anti-intellectual hostility towards scientific research on obesity, endless bullying and insulting people who don't follow your "will power is everything" dogma.

So I'll ignore your ignorant personal attacks as usual, considering the SOURCE.

That said, GOOD FOR YOU if your twisted personal hostility towards me is HELPFUL to you to MOTIVATE you in your personal struggle to avoid weight gain.

Normally I would put an extremely hostile and insulting poster like you on ignore (as I have other regular posters on here already), but I won't do that in your case, because I find your posts on other forums are worth looking at.

Please don't reply to this. You attacked me and I replied. LET IT GO.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Jingthing

[robblok]

...

I feel you got a real defeatist attitude, while others like me have a can do attitude. Guess who are more likely to succeed. Can't wait for it to be 2016 then i can rub it in your face that i kept the weight off 5 years showing long term results. I can still remember you telling me I did not count because i did not reach the 5 years yet.

Such extreme PERSONAL hostility towards me personally.

That is really pathetic, dude. You do realize I don't care in the slightest what you think of me as I have no respect at all for the tactics you have used here over the years: endless fat shaming, endless anti-intellectual hostility towards scientific research on obesity, endless bullying and insulting people who don't follow your "will power is everything" dogma.

So I'll ignore your ignorant personal attacks as usual, considering the SOURCE.

That said, GOOD FOR YOU if your twisted personal hostility towards me is HELPFUL to you to MOTIVATE you in your personal struggle to avoid weight gain.

Normally I would put an extremely hostile and insulting poster like you on ignore (as I have other regular posters on here already), but I won't do that in your case, because I find your posts on other forums are worth looking at.

Please don't reply to this. You attacked me and I replied. LET IT GO.

No hostility towards you just towards your attitude.

You are the only one constantly coming out with articles why people are fat why its not their own doing and so on. I have yet to see you come out on healthy food plans or exercise plans. The majority of your posts is about how it never is the fault of those who are overweight. Never anything about doing something about stuff. Never about exercise or own responsibility.

When i said my method worked, after I lost my weight back in 2011 you said.. you don't count you have to keep it off 5 years then we talk again. I am now close to those 5 years. It was you who started the insults back then. Not me by saying my results did not matter because i had yet to reach 5 years. I don't forget stuff like that. But I harbor no ill will against you personally, just towards your views.

[Jingthing]

You just lied. Yet again. I have posted many many times over the years about exercise and food choice subjects. Your implication that I post about scientific research in order to provide "excuses" to people is your twisted hostile spin and doesn't reflect on my motivations at all. I post about that because it is interesting and there are quite often things that people can apply NOW to their own behavior even if research may be in the early historical stages. For example research on gut bacteria suggests people may benefit from adding FERMENTED FOODS to their daily food intake.

In the WASHINGTON POST article I posted on this thread, which you apparently think should be sheilded from the eyes of obese people, the information that people often incorrectly judge their food intake and thus regain weight can be potentially VERY USEFUL indeed for people in that situation. Such information might make them more AWARE of that common problem in subjective perception, which BTW, I think is a VERY REAL and VERY COMMON thing for people in that situation. But no, to you, that kind of thing shouldn't be posted, says you.

I find your "attitude" towards SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH about obesity offensively ANTI-INTELLECTUAL and closed minded. Only your final conclusions have merit.

After your reply ... I asked you to give it up but you couldn't help yourself and had to pour on even more specious personal insults -- now I've changed my mind. Life is too short. Welcome to my ignore list.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Jingthing

[chiang mai]

You're in good company Rob, moi for one! Actually, JT's ignore list reads like a who's who of TVF, I reckon a poster has not really arrived until he's made that list.

[namatjira]

Please can I go on ignore list too.....

[namatjira]

I really do not care about the gut bacteria in your stomach, Jing jing

[chiang mai]

More seriously, why ignore posters JT whom you can't agree with, why not just accept there are differing points of view and agree to disagree and then move on. Putting people on ignore makes a statement that says, I don't like that person for challenging my view and not agreeing with me so I don't want to read anything they have to say on any subject ever again, not really adult behavior really, is it?

Opps, I forgot, I'm on ignore, oh well.

[Jingthing]

Please can I go on ignore list too.....

No. You haven't earned that yet.

[Jingthing]

I really do not care about the gut bacteria in your stomach, Jing jing

There is a long thread about gut bacteria research. It's a promising field of scientific research and strong links have now been confirmed to some bacteria profiles linked to obesity and others linked to those without the problem. Could be related to so many people taking so many antibiotics especially as children. It's still early in the research but expect to hear amazing things about it in the future.

[h90]

I really do not care about the gut bacteria in your stomach, Jing jing

There is a long thread about gut bacteria research. It's a promising field of scientific research and strong links have now been confirmed to some bacteria profiles linked to obesity and others linked to those without the problem. Could be related to so many people taking so many antibiotics especially as children. It's still early in the research but expect to hear amazing things about it in the future.

Actually gut bacteria which are efficient and squeeze out a few more kcal of the food are the good one. These which let the food pass unprocessed are the bad one.

To eat as much as possible without processing it is immoral.

I think I am already on your ignore list, or? If not I want to apply, please.

[h90]

Please can I go on ignore list too.....

No. You haven't earned that yet.

Don't worry, being honest and logical will bring you on the list in no time. Usually you'll be called anti-semitic, racist, homophob before....Than when you get called "dude" than you are almost there.

[mommysboy]

I feel uneasy. I have to say some of JT's postings are very informative, and on other forums he has introduced points that cut across common beliefs and proved to be right.

Just guessing but what really seems to get his goat is when people seem to hide behind strong moralistic even fundamentalist views, and also seem a little hypocritical.

In a way we can only speak from our own bodies. That usually means a confusion. I'm sure my postings are riddled with contradictions, as are H90 and robbs. As one we all have these rather odd myths about the way our bodies work and what is 'normal'. Thus I might find a posting a bit absurd while another can relate perfectly.

JT does go on one rather easily however and I feel robb has taken a rather unfair sustained beating.

Suggest a truce

[h90]

I feel uneasy. I have to say some of JT's postings are very informative, and on other forums he has introduced points that cut across common beliefs and proved to be right.

Just guessing but what really seems to get his goat is when people seem to hide behind strong moralistic even fundamentalist views, and also seem a little hypocritical.

In a way we can only speak from our own bodies. That usually means a confusion. I'm sure my postings are riddled with contradictions, as are H90 and robbs. As one we all have these rather odd myths about the way our bodies work and what is 'normal'. Thus I might find a posting a bit absurd while another can relate perfectly.

JT does go on one rather easily however and I feel robb has taken a rather unfair sustained beating.

Suggest a truce

+1 for a truce....

[chiang mai]

Hopefully a helpful suggestion: perhaps if certain posters were to reconsider their style of delivery, content they ask other to consider might perhaps be viewed slightly differently and ensuing debates made less fractious.

Perhaps somebody will be so good as to copy and reply to this post so that it might be more widely viewed.

[canuckamuck]

What would be good would be that all of the people who post on here and do not have a history of weight problems might consider that their opinion is just that, unless they are bringing research to the table.

People who do struggle with their weight know more about this issue, just by experience alone. But they are also more likely to have read a lot on the subject. Anyone who comes on here that has never been 10k overweight or more and just shoots off that it's all about fat people living in denial ought to be called out as a troll.

You got to be ignorant not to know that their are multiple factors that make up a body type. I am not saying that there isn't fat people out there that would not be fat if they just ate regular meals without snacks. But I imagine most people who are fat by their teens have a few extra physiological factors working against them. It isn't a level playing field, or we would all be pro athletes. Most fat people have to work hard to become average weight. And learning about what science is working on can help lighten the load (so to speak).

Now what Jingthing does is bring out interesting articles from various places that really add a lot to the discussion. I have learned a lot from Jingthing's contributions, but I see the skinny trolls always got to put him down.

If you don't agree with the articles that's one thing, But respect that JT is bringing real info and opening up interesting discussion.

[robblok]

What would be good would be that all of the people who post on here and do not have a history of weight problems might consider that their opinion is just that, unless they are bringing research to the table.

People who do struggle with their weight know more about this issue, just by experience alone. But they are also more likely to have read a lot on the subject. Anyone who comes on here that has never been 10k overweight or more and just shoots off that it's all about fat people living in denial ought to be called out as a troll.

You got to be ignorant not to know that their are multiple factors that make up a body type. I am not saying that there isn't fat people out there that would not be fat if they just ate regular meals without snacks. But I imagine most people who are fat by their teens have a few extra physiological factors working against them. It isn't a level playing field, or we would all be pro athletes. Most fat people have to work hard to become average weight. And learning about what science is working on can help lighten the load (so to speak).

Now what Jingthing does is bring out interesting articles from various places that really add a lot to the discussion. I have learned a lot from Jingthing's contributions, but I see the skinny trolls always got to put him down.

If you don't agree with the articles that's one thing, But respect that JT is bringing real info and opening up interesting discussion.

l lost 25 kg and have a hard time really keeping it under control Though i want to be more as slim, i like to be real lean abs and all.

JT brings in research but its always the same stuff, obese people have something wrong with them and that is why they can be overweight and and its by no fault of their own.

I have read tons of research and while i really believe there are differences as I am living proof of it, the reality is that the differences are not as huge. There is a 20% extra burn between both extremes. That is 1 meal a day. But this is for the people who are real fat and the real skinny ones. So the extremes at both sides of the range. In general it will be more like 10% difference. Still a lot but that does not account fro the huge differences in body-weight.

I have done extensive research into that range and reasons for and ways to change it. Went through medical journals, experiments and so on.

Sure the difference in burn accounts for something but the lifestyle accounts for a larger part.

Science won't help us much believe me I have taken more then a few drugs that have helped me burn more calories.(did extensive research) Except one none came close to an extra 10% burn.. more like 5% and then there were side effects. So for science to come up with something that burns 10-20% safely is a pipe dream.

Curbing appetite that is a more likely path as meth does that real well, to copy that effect would help a lot. If you look at the BBC documentary on kids you will see some that will eat until the food is gone and others that wont touch the food. That is a major difference so going that way would be a better way. Also a far more ethical way as finding ways to eat more and still stay lean.

The playing field is certainly not level but I don't see that as an excuse not to do something. I really dislike the predestined to attitude.

I have never had a problem with JT personally just his views.