How do you think Thai compares to these?

[gk10002000]

Very difficult to compare languages. In fact the word language itself is ambiguous. Do you mean written or spoken language? That to me is right off the bat a big difference. Symbolic languages such as Japanese or Korean will baffle people. Script or phonetic written languages, English, German, and even Thai have the basic written thing similar. I can't begin to compare how the total understanding works and the way that languages describe the world. Some really are unique and deal with analogs, adjectives before or after Nouns. Some don't handle past present future or conditional well.

[Johpa]

Very difficult to compare languages. In fact the word language itself is ambiguous. Do you mean written or spoken language? That to me is right off the bat a big difference. Symbolic languages such as Japanese or Korean will baffle people. Script or phonetic written languages, English, German, and even Thai have the basic written thing similar. I can't begin to compare how the total understanding works and the way that languages describe the world. Some really are unique and deal with analogs, adjectives before or after Nouns. Some don't handle past present future or conditional well.

The US State Departments ranking of language difficulty is not comparing languages per se. They are simply using the data from their own language schools, such as the Defense Language Institute school in Monterey, California, to determine how much classroom time it takes the average student to achieve a predetermined level of competency. And clearly the subjective criteria for those rankings have changed from my days in academia decades ago as there are now five levels rather than four levels of difficulty.

If by "symbolic languages" you are referring to logographic script used commonly throughout East Asia (Japan, China, Korea) then it certainly adds a level of difficulty in learning compared to a phonetic script such as Thai, but it is not baffling, just more time consuming to initially learn. But I vaguely remember some study that indicated that once internalized (memorized) the brain processes most written words as complete ideograms, even English words.

Most languages handle time (past, present, future) quite well but may handle them differently. From one technical perspective Thai has no tenses and English has but two tenses, but for any native speaker both handle time with ease. For non-native speakers such languages can perhaps be more challenging in regards to expressing time than other languages.

[futsukayoi]

Timmyp

You should just back off. It is fairly clear that you do not know hat you are talking about and that many respondents have a much better grasp of Linguistics than you.

Languages are not of exactly identical difficulty for first language speakers to acquire. Especially as all languages change and evolve over time they are constantly becoming to degree more or less difficult. A single language can also have a huge variation depending on the age, sex, social relationship and geography etc of the speakers. According to your ideas as English gradually lost it's case markers this as exactly paralleled by it gaining some balancing complexity at the same rate. That is just not how languages work or evolve. The process is much more random, illogical and interesting.

Research (I read it via John McWhorter) has shown that children take longer to reach an equivalent level of proficiency in some languages (some native American languages were examples) because they are more difficult.

[puukao]

I am mixing Korean with Native American, while writing only in hieroglyphics.

My plan is to get 100 trillion intergalactic specimens speaking my language.

I'm sorry, English is my 253th language.

I learned this funny alphabet in less than 19 minutes. Right now listening to rap on youtube, in case I ever end up in this city they call Detroit.

[timmyp]

Timmyp

You should just back off. It is fairly clear that you do not know hat you are talking about and that many respondents have a much better grasp of Linguistics than you.

Languages are not of exactly identical difficulty for first language speakers to acquire. Especially as all languages change and evolve over time they are constantly becoming to degree more or less difficult. A single language can also have a huge variation depending on the age, sex, social relationship and geography etc of the speakers. According to your ideas as English gradually lost it's case markers this as exactly paralleled by it gaining some balancing complexity at the same rate. That is just not how languages work or evolve. The process is much more random, illogical and interesting.

Research (I read it via John McWhorter) has shown that children take longer to reach an equivalent level of proficiency in some languages (some native American languages were examples) because they are more difficult.

You're totally right, futsukayoi/hangover about the randomness of language. And of course about the variation among a group of speakers based on the things you said.

I only get condescending on this forum when people start dishing it out. And thanks for not doing that.

Bringing up what John McWhorter said is a solid argument... I haven't read anything he's written, but I have read arguments in other papers against his claims. He is talking specifically about creole languages (you probably know that). Here is a quote from McWhorter:

"I have argued in various presentations that it is inherent to natural grammars to maintain a considerable level of complexity over time: simplifications occur, but are counterbalanced by complexifications..." That sounds alot like "all languages are the same, but his over claims are that creole languages really are less complex than the languages they come from... it is an interesting and controversial claim. My knee jerk reaction is to dimiss it, but I haven't read the paper. I should.

McWhorter, and many other linguistics, also talk about how languages become more simplified over time. It sounds like you might be saying the same thing when you mention how English lost its case system? It seems like a contradiction to me that to believe, as most linguists do, that both 1) languages become less complex, 2) all languages have the same complexity. I have never heard someone address this contradiction. I don't really believe #1, but that's just my belief, it's not based on anything other than "it can't be true because it contradicts #2".

Your user name and your mention of variation in language makes me wonder if you studied Japanese? I am a certified Japanese interpreter/translator. I hope you didn't buy into the belief of the complexity of Japanese as proof of languages being harder than others (notice it's one of the 10 languages at the start of this video). Japanese is incidentally a great example of easily-identifiable balanced complexity: if you believe the use of formal words makes Japanese more complex/difficult, then I would point out how J only has 5 vowels, limited number of tenses, no gender, etc. If you are argue that J has gender through vocabulary choice and intonation, then I would say the same is in English.

[futsukayoi]

If you have not read any McWorter you definitely should give it a go. You may well disagree with a lot of his arguments but he is usually very entertaining. His current research interests are indeed mainly Creoles but his arguments were based on other languages. Simplifying greatly he argues that languages which are spoken over large areas and where many of the speakers have learned it as a second language lose some of their complexity. Specifically he suggests that makes English the easiest Ind-European language and Mandarin the easiest form of Chinese. On the other hand he argues that languages spoken by small isolated groups with no need to communicate much externally tend to be the hardest. It is a long time ago since I read it so I can't remember sources of his evidence to back it up

Although not specifically stated this discussion is concerned with learning the spoken language and in that regard I would agree with you that Japanese is not especially complex. A separate topic but the written language is a different matter and my hat is off to you if you are a certified translator.

[timmyp]

Although not specifically stated this discussion is concerned with learning the spoken language and in that regard I would agree with you that Japanese is not especially complex. A separate topic but the written language is a different matter and my hat is off to you if you are a certified translator.

I agree with you that it's not especially complex. But yet it winds up as the top ten hardest languages in that silly video in the OP. It's also ranked by the U.S. State Department described by another poster I was arguing with as one of the languages taking the most amount of time to learn. Obviously there is a such varied opinion on the topic of language complexity that it's hard not to simply dismiss all claims of complexity.

McWhorter's claims are interesting as you describe them. I should look into what you describe, thanks for turning me on to him.

Reading and writing Japanese has a steep learning curve, but once you have enough kanji under your belt, it's a breeze to understand new terms. I come across technical terms that I have never seen before all the time, and it's easy to understand them because the kanji tells you the meaning. In English, you can't do that (well, if you've studied Greek and Latin for years, then you have a good shot at guessing the meaning of medical terms and animal classifications, but otherwise, you just gotta know the word). Because of this, I would guess that a monolingual English speaker learning Japanese can understand technical documentation in a variety of fields in Japanese before a monolingual Japanese speaker can understand technical documentation in a variety of fields in English. That's just my guess.

[arunsakda]

Exactly. As I learned more on yomi (Chinese reading of a character) I started reading and understanding words I had never seen before. I have been at Japanese a long time, passed the Level II proficiency exam, and sometimes can "pass" for native on a simple phone call. However one thing is this. I have never had any problem making myself understood using whatever I attempted to say at any particular level based on what I had mastered at the time.

Constrast to Thai where no matter how I try, I have Thais scratching their heads in complete mosunderstanding as I get the tones wrong, even with simple phrases I think I have mastered. Frustrating and difficult.

I don't think Japanese is that complex. I have met "beach boys" on Guam who have at most two years High School Japanese with impressive skills, even dialect. They cannot read or write Japanese at all but became proficient solely from years of interacting with Tourists and scamming chicks. Pretty surprising actually.

[CaptHaddock]

Exactly. As I learned more on yomi (Chinese reading of a character) I started reading and understanding words I had never seen before. I have been at Japanese a long time, passed the Level II proficiency exam, and sometimes can "pass" for native on a simple phone call. However one thing is this. I have never had any problem making myself understood using whatever I attempted to say at any particular level based on what I had mastered at the time.

Constrast to Thai where no matter how I try, I have Thais scratching their heads in complete mosunderstanding as I get the tones wrong, even with simple phrases I think I have mastered. Frustrating and difficult.

I don't think Japanese is that complex. I have met "beach boys" on Guam who have at most two years High School Japanese with impressive skills, even dialect. They cannot read or write Japanese at all but became proficient solely from years of interacting with Tourists and scamming chicks. Pretty surprising actually.

I'd be willing to bet that you don't get the tones right because you have never had one-on-one instruction from a qualified Thai teacher who corrects you every time you make a pronunciation mistake (or grammar or usage, etc.) No one else, including my wife, corrects my pronunciation consistently. Only teachers do that.

Learning Thai to me is like learning to play the piano: it takes more time to master than most expect and you must have competent instruction. There are a few examples of musicians who claimed to have learned to play the piano entirely on their own, like Jerry Lee Lewis for example, but, even if true, they would be very few.

Similarly, most Westerners here fail to achieve anything near fluency in Thai, but then few of them study seriously with a competent teacher. For some unknown reason many of them expect to pick it up from books, tapes, and casual conversation.

I don't claim to be fluent in Thai yet, but the Thais can understand me. I recently had an Uber driver tell me how surprised he was that he could understand every word I said as we had a long conversation about politics and economics.

As for the relative difficulty of learning Japanese for a native English speaker, I would guess that it isn't the spoken language that makes it among the most difficult to learn, but the ideogram system. At any rate the Japanese learners I have known all complained about the kanji, never pronunciation. Of course, it makes no sense to compare languages without their writing systems. Unless the student aspires merely to be a beach boy.

[SanukDii]

I can only comment on my own experiences. My native language is English. The second language I learnt was Spanish and having learnt Spanish, then went on to learn French, Portuguese and Italian all of which I found considerably easier no doubt because of the Spanish. In the late 90's I came to Thailand and learnt Thai which was much more difficult than all of the previous languages. After which I learnt Mandarin which seemed much easier than the Thai for a number of reasons, one of which I suspect was the previous exposure to the grammar and structure of Asian languages.

Incidentally I am also a musician. In the 80's and most of the 90s myself and several colleagues were amongst an elite group of session players that played on many of both decades biggest hit records on both sides of the Atlantic - all were self taught, so the previous posters assumptions that you need competent instruction to be competent is erroneous. Actually my Thai improved immensely when I stopped taking lessons and taught myself.

[CaptHaddock]

I can only comment on my own experiences. My native language is English. The second language I learnt was Spanish and having learnt Spanish, then went on to learn French, Portuguese and Italian all of which I found considerably easier no doubt because of the Spanish. In the late 90's I came to Thailand and learnt Thai which was much more difficult than all of the previous languages. After which I learnt Mandarin which seemed much easier than the Thai for a number of reasons, one of which I suspect was the previous exposure to the grammar and structure of Asian languages.

Incidentally I am also a musician. In the 80's and most of the 90s myself and several colleagues were amongst an elite group of session players that played on many of both decades biggest hit records on both sides of the Atlantic - all were self taught, so the previous posters assumptions that you need competent instruction to be competent is erroneous. Actually my Thai improved immensely when I stopped taking lessons and taught myself.

That's interesting to hear about the self-taught musicians. All the professional musicians I have known were formally trained, but it's a big world.

Did you learn to read and write Mandarin? I find it hard to believe that anyone would rate fully learning Mandarin (including literacy) is easier than Thai.

And how good is your Thai? Can you read and write? Do you read Thai books at university level? Do Thais understand you? Do you understand them? How large is your vocabulary? Passed the ป 6 exam?

I recognize that there are some people who can become fully fluent in Thai without formal study, but they would be few. Chris Baker, for instance, says that he never studied Thai formally, but he had already mastered several languages including Russian in university and then married a Thai academic. So, he both had resources and the skills to use them. But that's not most people.

The overwhelming fact is that most Western expats never get even to a basic level of competence in Thai. Thai is harder for us to learn than French, but the reason most Westerners fail is that they are not sufficiently motivated and they don't follow a course of study that is likely to be successful, i.e. university-level study or the equivalent. Attempting to teach yourself from books and tapes is a recipe for failure even if there is an occasional counter-example although I myself have not met any.

My post was in response to the previous poster who has evidently learned Japanese, but cannot master the Thai tones well enough to be understood. My point for him if he has failed to learn the Thai tones it is not because learning them is impossible. Nor is it because he lacks aptitude. So, it must be because he has gone about it in the wrong way. My guess is that he hasn't had competent correction and if he did he would get the tones down. If he sticks to whatever method he has been using to date he is likely to continue to fail.

[SanukDii]

I can only comment on my own experiences. My native language is English. The second language I learnt was Spanish and having learnt Spanish, then went on to learn French, Portuguese and Italian all of which I found considerably easier no doubt because of the Spanish. In the late 90's I came to Thailand and learnt Thai which was much more difficult than all of the previous languages. After which I learnt Mandarin which seemed much easier than the Thai for a number of reasons, one of which I suspect was the previous exposure to the grammar and structure of Asian languages.

Incidentally I am also a musician. In the 80's and most of the 90s myself and several colleagues were amongst an elite group of session players that played on many of both decades biggest hit records on both sides of the Atlantic - all were self taught, so the previous posters assumptions that you need competent instruction to be competent is erroneous. Actually my Thai improved immensely when I stopped taking lessons and taught myself.

That's interesting to hear about the self-taught musicians. All the professional musicians I have known were formally trained, but it's a big world.

Did you learn to read and write Mandarin? I find it hard to believe that anyone would rate fully learning Mandarin (including literacy) is easier than Thai.

And how good is your Thai? Can you read and write? Do you read Thai books at university level? Do Thais understand you? Do you understand them? How large is your vocabulary? Passed the ป 6 exam?

I recognize that there are some people who can become fully fluent in Thai without formal study, but they would be few. Chris Baker, for instance, says that he never studied Thai formally, but he had already mastered several languages including Russian in university and then married a Thai academic. So, he both had resources and the skills to use them. But that's not most people.

The overwhelming fact is that most Western expats never get even to a basic level of competence in Thai. Thai is harder for us to learn than French, but the reason most Westerners fail is that they are not sufficiently motivated and they don't follow a course of study that is likely to be successful, i.e. university-level study or the equivalent. Attempting to teach yourself from books and tapes is a recipe for failure even if there is an occasional counter-example although I myself have not met any.

My post was in response to the previous poster who has evidently learned Japanese, but cannot master the Thai tones well enough to be understood. My point for him if he has failed to learn the Thai tones it is not because learning them is impossible. Nor is it because he lacks aptitude. So, it must be because he has gone about it in the wrong way. My guess is that he hasn't had competent correction and if he did he would get the tones down. If he sticks to whatever method he has been using to date he is likely to continue to fail.

I started learning the reading and writing of Mandarin as I was taking formal lessons to begin with. But to be honest I don't really like the Asian approach to language learning (the rote method). So I soon resorted to my own methods I have developed after many years of formal language training in a western univercity based system. I've found a way to accelerate my language learning so, I only need about a year before I am pretty fluent.

Perhaps I should clarify on my Thai language learning. Over a period of four years I completed every course I could find, took private lessons in vowel and tone pronunciation and pretty much refused to speak english - which I'm sure was amusing for the Thais on the recieving end! So, yes I can read and write although I really have no need to beyond the everyday uses...no univercity books for me thanks. Yes they understand me and yes (unfortunately) I understand them. Large vocab, not sure, but based on conversations I would guess somewhere between 3 to 4000 words - it's a guess ...don't hang me! As per your reference for Chris Baker I found that when I stopped the lessons and started teaching myself my language improved immensly both in complexity and the detail with which I could express myself, but I had a lot of language learning under my belt from IOL, and a degree in modern languages, and a masters (complete waste of time that was!) I think the reason I feel that the Mandarin was easier is that after probably 15 years of learning latin based languages the Thai felt SO alien! By the time I got to Mandarin I was prepared for the tones, classifiers (or measuring words as my teacher insisted on refering to them) and the fact that pinyin allows you to read a consistent transliteration is also more helpful than the many different versions that you encounter in Thai.

But don't missunderstand me, I am not putting down a comprehensive approach to learning a language and one of the "did I just do that?" moments in my life was being able to read Gabriel Garcia Marquez's books in the original language . But most people will never need that kind of fluency in their everday life, or have the time to acquire it, and simple polite conversation will be enough - you don't need 4 years of Uni for that.

PS...I think I am done with languages for now. The more you speak the more revision there is

[Aforek]

I think that to be a musician and used to many other languages , like SanukDii is a great help to learn thai tones ; there are people who are naturally gifted to reproduce sounds and thai is musical ( that's why I like it )

as for me, I don't pretend to be very good and academic ( I know I am not ) , but Thai people understand me and when they use words that I know , I understand them

I don't pretend my tones are perfectly correct, never learnt with a teacher but what I can say is that I read very well ( not write, not motivated ) and I have learnt totally alone with a book , so at leat to read, if you have motivation, you don't need a teacher even if I agree it must be easier and faster with a teacher but motivation makes miracles

[SanukDii]

Aforek, congrats on learning to read that helps a lot. Actually being a musician was both a help and a hindrance in the beginning. High tones, as in "Naam" actually rise in pitch musically and rising tones such as "suay" fall in pitch before rising - that was hellaconfusing to begin with. But yes, having an "ear" does help overall

[arunsakda]

I have had one on one instruction, and I think I have a good ear for the tones. I admit to have difficulty reproducing them consistently. I also have never been able to sing, maybe has something to do with it.

Even took a vocal class (Indian classical). The basic swara or scale is "sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa" (just like "do re mi fa so la...").

I could not get past "sa" without a quavering screech and Guru told me not to return!

[CaptHaddock]

I have had one on one instruction, and I think I have a good ear for the tones. I admit to have difficulty reproducing them consistently. I also have never been able to sing, maybe has something to do with it.

Even took a vocal class (Indian classical). The basic swara or scale is "sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa" (just like "do re mi fa so la...").

I could not get past "sa" without a quavering screech and Guru told me not to return!

How many hours of one-on-one instruction have you had? What were the qualifications of your Thai teacher? Did he/she have bachelor's and/or master's degrees in Thai language? Had he/she received specific training in teaching Thai to foreigners? Had he/she taught other foreigners who succeeded in becoming fluent in Thai and whom you met? Did he/she correct your mispronunciations every single time you got it wrong? Did you practice reading out loud to the teacher? Could your Thai teacher correctly answer questions like these (which most Thais cannot):

1. What is the effect of ห นำ on the pronunciation of the syllable?

2. What is the difference between the nouns of the form ความ + verb and การ + verb?

Being able to sing has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with pronouncing the Thai tones correctly. Speaking Thai is not singing. If you practice correctly and get correction from a qualified teacher you can certainly learn to pronounce the tones correctly and reliably. But it's hard to find a qualified teacher. Most of the "schools" teaching Thai to foreigners are junk with unqualified teachers.

Learning the tones is a little like learning to ride a bicycle. The kid struggles to stay upright and falls over repeatedly seeming not to make progress. But then the kid gets it in a fairly short period of time and is suddenly able to wobble along. That was my experience with tones. The difference though, is that many kids are able to learn to ride a bike on their own. I think few Westerners are able to learn the tones on their own. I certainly have not met any.

So, yes it's hard, maybe harder than we anticipated. The way you accomplish a hard thing is to persist and make sure you have feedback to know when it is right and when it is wrong so that you can progress.

[arunsakda]

I admit that my main problem with Thai is a certain lack of motivation. My Thai teacher I met at AUA, which is known as a rigourous quality program in Chiang Mai where I took the basic course. Myself, not her, suggested ad-hoc private lessons so could she get a little extra dosh. I know this is unethical and against any schools policy but these things happen and it was a long time ago. I'm sure her qualifications are excellent and any failure to progress is solely my responsibility.

I learned Japanese through sheer force of will with high motivation. The initial learning curve is steep requiring much memorization. I struggled with first 2 years of university Japanese is the US and got weak grades. This was before apps and iPhones and I still rememver lugging a backpack around with heavy dictionaries. I was told I would never succeed by certain people. When I hear this I always get motivated. Then I went on a 6 week internship in a trading company in Shinjuku prior to 3rd year. Came back and I was a top student in the program. After graduation I moved to Japan and stayed on a 2 year working contract. Things that I memorized previously, without any fluency, became manifest, and I rapidly progressed during that time.

Thank you for your inspiration. I'm sure IF I apply myself to study I can succeed at Thai in the future as well.

[CaptHaddock]

I admit that my main problem with Thai is a certain lack of motivation. My Thai teacher I met at AUA, which is known as a rigourous and qualified program in Chiang Mai wher eI took the basic course. Myself, not her, suggested ad-hoc private lessons so could she get a little extra dosh. I know this is unethical and against any school policy but these things happen and it was a long time ago. I'm sure her qualifications are excellent and any failure to progress is solely my responsibility.

I learned Japanese through sheer force of will with high motivation. The initial learning curve is steep requiring much memorization. I struggled with first 2 years of university Japanese is the US and got weak grades. This is before apps and iPhones and I still rememver lugging backpack around with heavy dictionaries. I was told I would never succeed by certain people. Then I went on a 6 week internship in a trading company in Shinjuku prior to 3rd year. Came back and I was a top student in the program. After graduation I moved to Japan and stayed on a 2 year working contract.

Thank you for your inspiration. I'm sure IF I apply myself to study I can succeed at Thai in the future as well.

I doubt if your AUA teacher was qualified, especially if you didn't actually know her qualifications. AUA in Bangkok is distinguished by their adherence to a junk theory of second language acquisition so I wouldn't have high expectations for their teachers, although I suppose anything is possible.

If you learned Japanese you can certainly learn Thai, but the difficulties are different ones as you know. I thank god that Indian culture got here before the Chinese and I don't have to memorize ideograms. Motivation, not intelligence or music talent or anything else, is the main limiting factor since learning a language is just a slog. The ones who succeed are highly motivated, all of them. Language study is a very fair undertaking: the more you put in, the more you get out. And then the more you know, the more interesting this new environment turns out to be. But then that's always true, isn't it?

Good luck. Don't give up. You can do it.

[phuketsub]

Another factor is the learning environment. When I was at university in Quebec as a foreign student, one of my reasons for picking a school there was that I would have a chance to practice French, which I had already been studying for 6 years in junior and senior high.

The people there had no inclination whatsoever to engage in conversation with me, an 18-year-old Yankee.

When I came to Thailand there were very few books: Just the AUA course and the Mary Haas dictionary, but the Thai people were so enthusiastic and supportive and that made all the difference...and it still does to this day.

I am not sure I have really 'mastered' Thai; right now I am improving my Southern Thai, but more by osmosis more than desire. My students really like it when I use some of the old-timey Southern Thai that I picked up from my parents-in-law.

One thing that I never understood about French is the the 'gender' thing, which I always found unnecessarily confusing. Languages evolve, so why do such things survive?

No French speaker, or speakers of other languages with gender attachments to nouns, has ever been able to adequately explain it to me, though they always insist it adds something to the language. I would love if someone could explain to me what the added value is, because it has always been a complete mystery to me.

The difficulty level of any language depends on what is your mother language and its relation with the language that you are trying to learn, also of your will to learn, for example, my mother language is Spanish, when I was in high school it was mandatory for me to take French lessons and for the 90% of my classmates it was very easy to learn cuz French and Spanish are very close languages, but for me it was imposible mission because I didn't like how it sounded and because I was not interested in anything French, in the other hand I have mastered very easily Chinese Mandarin, Japanese, Thai and Russian, so how difficult is a language to learn depends mostly on how willing are you to learn it.

[Johpa]

OK, I hate to date myself, but this new guy on the block, John McWhorter, wasn't around when I was studying linguistics in academia decades ago. So the other day I did the old Google thing and found a really excellent series of introductory lectures on modern linguistics on YouTube by McWhorter. He, like most linguists, is a bit dry, but in comparison to say Chomsky, he is actually pretty funny. But that is only in comparison to Chomsky so don't expect too much here. I though it a darn good introduction to the subject for the non-academic interested in the subject. Here is a link to the first in the series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq0ALQ8guDE

[arunsakda]

I had no idea AUA is known for a pedagogy based on discredited language acquisition theory and pseudoscience. What a ripoff! I have two years of Middle school Spanish decades ago where I did the minimum effort and had zero interest or motivation. I can't speak Spanish. But, it is amazing how much I can understand based on on word similarity,

So today I was watching a movie with some Spanish dialog, Subtitles in Thai which does me no good. There was a line like "Nadie necessit(a) (o) libros en el campo"

Nadie - I think any literate English speaker knows "nada". Turns out to be close.

libros - Sounds like library. OK, a Book, must have learned this one in 1980.

Campo - I know what a campesino is from study of social theory and economics. Ok "the field"

So in my head I immediately got they idea what this line meant. I don't think I am particularly intelligent. This kind of thing would add up for me to If I ever needed to study. So my opinion Spanish must be "easier" than others, at least for me based on my experience.

[Johnniey]

Finnish is the hardest by far. Thai is easy.

I see Estonian and Hungarian were there, which along with Finnish are the same family.

[Johpa]

I had no idea AUA is known for a pedagogy based on discredited language acquisition theory and pseudoscience. What a ripoff!

AUA uses/used two very different methodologies, neither of which is totally discredited nor based on any pseudo science. But in the fashion world of the social sciences, some may find their methodologies currently out of fashion. I learned basic Thai using their old "raan ahaan Nik" methodology and it worked well for me and my fellow classmates

[CaptHaddock]

I had no idea AUA is known for a pedagogy based on discredited language acquisition theory and pseudoscience. What a ripoff!

AUA uses/used two very different methodologies, neither of which is totally discredited nor based on any pseudo science. But in the fashion world of the social sciences, some may find their methodologies currently out of fashion. I learned basic Thai using their old "raan ahaan Nik" methodology and it worked well for me and my fellow classmates

The Marvin Brown AUA Thai language books and tapes were based on the Audio-Lingual Method popular the US when they were written in the 70's. Later, even Brown himself regretted that his texts omitted grammar which was the basic defect of the ALM method since the student was supposed to absorb the grammar without being taught it. Those of us Americans who were in school in those years certainly remember the ALM method for which our schools were equipped with language labs, booths iwth tape recorders. The technology and the ALM method itself were supposed to improve achievement in foreign language learning in American schools, but failed completely. Interestingly enough, the ALM method developed out of US military programs to teach enlisted men enough of the Japanese language to enable them to read decrypts of Japanese military radio traffic produced by the code-breaking efforts. That program was practical and successful in its wartime goals, but a poor model for enabling students to achieve fluency in a second language. As far as I know the ALM method has disappeared completely by now.

The AUA method used here in Bangkok in the past and perhaps even now for all I know, has been based on a crackpot theory that students of Thai should only listen for months without making any effort to speak or communicate in Thai at all. The obvious defect, even if you can get students to tolerate the waste of time and money, is that unless the student is attempting to speak Thai himself he hardly knows what to listen for from native Thai speakers. I doubt there was ever any research to support such a bogus approach nor have I heard of any other pedagogy that uses it.

[Johpa]

The Marvin Brown AUA Thai language books and tapes were based on the Audio-Lingual Method popular the US when they were written in the 70's. Later, even Brown himself regretted that his texts omitted grammar which was the basic defect of the ALM method since the student was supposed to absorb the grammar without being taught it.

The AUA method used here in Bangkok in the past and perhaps even now for all I know, has been based on a crackpot theory that students of Thai should only listen for months without making any effort to speak or communicate in Thai at all. The obvious defect, even if you can get students to tolerate the waste of time and money, is that unless the student is attempting to speak Thai himself he hardly knows what to listen for from native Thai speakers. I doubt there was ever any research to support such a bogus approach nor have I heard of any other pedagogy that uses it.

My experience with the old AUA method was complemented with a professor with a PhD in Thai language and linguistics who complemented the first year with plenty of grammar. No single methodology is comprehensive in itself. Good ESL instructors must be eclectic.

As for the other methodology, google "the silent way". It is an accepted methodology and I believe the Peace Corps uses/used to use a similar methodology.

[CaptHaddock]

The Marvin Brown AUA Thai language books and tapes were based on the Audio-Lingual Method popular the US when they were written in the 70's. Later, even Brown himself regretted that his texts omitted grammar which was the basic defect of the ALM method since the student was supposed to absorb the grammar without being taught it.

The AUA method used here in Bangkok in the past and perhaps even now for all I know, has been based on a crackpot theory that students of Thai should only listen for months without making any effort to speak or communicate in Thai at all. The obvious defect, even if you can get students to tolerate the waste of time and money, is that unless the student is attempting to speak Thai himself he hardly knows what to listen for from native Thai speakers. I doubt there was ever any research to support such a bogus approach nor have I heard of any other pedagogy that uses it.

My experience with the old AUA method was complemented with a professor with a PhD in Thai language and linguistics who complemented the first year with plenty of grammar. No single methodology is comprehensive in itself. Good ESL instructors must be eclectic.

As for the other methodology, google "the silent way". It is an accepted methodology and I believe the Peace Corps uses/used to use a similar methodology.

When I google "the silent way" I find content about a man named Caleb Gattegno who developed a method for teaching foreign languages in which the teacher is more or less silent while the student learns language elements like grammar "by induction." Sounds like another bogus theory with no research data to support its dubious assumptions. But it has nothing at all to do with the Thai AUA method in which it is the student who remains silent and only listens for months.

Language learning is full of both charlatans and earnest types committed to bogus theories about how people learn or should learn. Most of those people, both Thais and others, who learn English well do it in a university system. There are no magical solutions and no shortcuts. The student has to memorize a lot and practice all the necessary skills of speaking, listening, reading, and writing.