Death toll mounts in Israel and the Palestinian territories

[Morch]

Your information is very outdated. You saw what happened when Israel left Gaza. Palestinian terrorists took over. Abbas is very, very unpopular among his own people in Judea/Samaria. It is well known that if an election was held today there, Hamas would win in a landslide.

It would be the first to acknowledge that Israel shares SOME of the blame for the lack of peaceful solution in the region. But Israel demonizers are radical EXTREMISTS, they blame Israel (and what they like to call the "Jewish lobby") completely, for everything bad, not only in the immediate region of Israel but often for most every conflict in the greater Middle East region and even the entire world.

They are more than happy to try to guilt Israel into giving up their defenses, when they know quite well, the moment they do that, Israel will be doomed.

Regardless, if Israel, as the dominant power, is not willing to try the two state solution, the Israelis are doomed to be fighting the Palestinians as long as any Palestinians remain in Palestine. How long can they do so? Centuries? Is that any way to live?

There is no collective Israeli "they" when it comes to considering the future of Israel's policies vs. the Palestinians.

For some Israelis, especially those of religious bent, this might be a proposition to be interpreted as following divine will and national destiny. Obviously, this is not something shared by all Israelis. As detailed on another topic, the non-extremist Israeli right wing faces trouble when trying to formulate how the current state of affairs could be sustained indefinitely. There are simply no good enough answers to pertaining practical and ideological issues. So most times, the result is a state of partial denial.

Of course, there are other, more moderate voices as well, but easy enough to ignore that in favor of one-dimensional formulations.

The illusion that things are different on the Palestinian side, namely that Palestinians are generally pro-peace, and fully accept the two-state solution is a myth. There is, relatively, little by way of detailed open discussion regarding the realities entailed by certain concessions. On many instances, the "marketed" version of the two-state solution is not quite a realistic one. And then again, despite denials, the Palestinians do have their own fanatic extremists and they are not really a tiny minority as sometimes presented.

It is naive to expect that perceptions of the other side will change overnight, following leaders signing a treaty, or to expect instant mass rational enlightenment. Figuring out the needed actions to build basic trust between the sides is very tricky issue. Actually implementing such steps, and holding on to them through the expected rough spots, is even harder.

[thaibeachlovers]

Of course there is a road to peace. It is the two state solution and an end to occupation.

Interesting.

So how does that work now that the terrorist organization Hamas not only controls Gaza but is massively more popular than the "moderate" faction led by Abbas in Judea/Samaria?

In case you forgot Hamas is openly against ever accepting any state of Israel with any borders and is openly genocidal towards Jewish people in general.

Dawa-Hamas.jpg

It would not be necessary to include Gaza in the two state solution. Israel leaves the occupied territories to be led by Abbas's faction. If they attack Israel, they would be punished. You obviously know that Gaza is not currently occupied.

The problem is that Israel does not want to give back enough land to allow a viable west bank state to succeed. Probably why they are not serious about that path to peace.

The Palestinian position is to reject such a differentiation between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The usual formulation is that anything but an all inclusive agreement is a no go. There is also no popular support among Palestinians for such a notion.

Why it is assumed that following an Israeli withdrawal the West Bank will be led by "Abbas's faction"? Abbas, and the Fatah, are hugely unpopular due to many reasons, not all to do with Israel. Given a shot at free elections, more than likely Hamas will emerge victorious (again), and that the aftermath will contribute to the rise of hardliner leaders within the Fatah. Regardless, considering Abbas's age, any strategy relying on him as a linchpin is a doubtful proposition. As an aside, it is not quite clear what "Abbas's faction" was supposed to denote - the Fatah as a whole? Abbas loyalists within the Fatah?

As for "If they attack Israel, they would be punished" - doesn't work all that well with the Gaza Strip. Israeli attacks are deemed unacceptable regardless of events, and they do not actually manage to bring about even a sustainable ceasefire.

There are obstacles for peaceful resolutions from both sides, focusing exclusively on those raised by Israel paints half a picture.

So because of "MIGHT" Israel will do nothing? That is only going to continue the same failed situation. How long can Israel continue to occupy and oppress before events will overwhelm Israel- nothing lasts forever?

[Morch]

There is also a certain evident delusion in not realizing that no viable solution could be reached without Israel's assent.and cooperation, international pressure notwithstanding. Attempts to force a not agreed upon resolution might end up with an agreement of sorts, but are not likely to be conductive for it holding up to reality.

As usual, there is no mention of Israel neighbors and the Palestinians rejecting that very same UN resolution. No mention of actions taken by Arab countries and the Palestinians to undo the UN resolution. No mention of two Arab countries taking over them future Palestinian territories (Egypt and Jordan).

Not that I go much for simplified analogies, but seems the spoiled brat one above could be applied for the Palestinians with ease: throwing a fit not wanting to share, then whining when reality bites.

You must be joking! You suggest that Palestinians upset at their homes being bulldozed are analogous to a spoiled brat not wanting to share?

Not at all.

That bit was referring to the partition plan and the relevant UN resolution.

Like I said, silly analogies are not a very good tool when trying to better understand complex situations.

How can you accuse the Palestinians of not wanting to share when their land OUTSIDE Israel is being stolen slowly, piece by piece? It is the Israelis that want it all, and don't want to share. Facts on the ground.

Lets try again - the "not wanting to share" bit was a reference to the Palestinian rejection of the 1947 partition plan.

My point was to show that such imagery can be applied to both sides, at different junctions of the conflict.

Once again, not putting much stock in silly analogies, more a muddying of the waters than anything else.

[Morch]

It would not be necessary to include Gaza in the two state solution. Israel leaves the occupied territories to be led by Abbas's faction. If they attack Israel, they would be punished. You obviously know that Gaza is not currently occupied.

The problem is that Israel does not want to give back enough land to allow a viable west bank state to succeed. Probably why they are not serious about that path to peace.

The Palestinian position is to reject such a differentiation between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The usual formulation is that anything but an all inclusive agreement is a no go. There is also no popular support among Palestinians for such a notion.

Why it is assumed that following an Israeli withdrawal the West Bank will be led by "Abbas's faction"? Abbas, and the Fatah, are hugely unpopular due to many reasons, not all to do with Israel. Given a shot at free elections, more than likely Hamas will emerge victorious (again), and that the aftermath will contribute to the rise of hardliner leaders within the Fatah. Regardless, considering Abbas's age, any strategy relying on him as a linchpin is a doubtful proposition. As an aside, it is not quite clear what "Abbas's faction" was supposed to denote - the Fatah as a whole? Abbas loyalists within the Fatah?

As for "If they attack Israel, they would be punished" - doesn't work all that well with the Gaza Strip. Israeli attacks are deemed unacceptable regardless of events, and they do not actually manage to bring about even a sustainable ceasefire.

There are obstacles for peaceful resolutions from both sides, focusing exclusively on those raised by Israel paints half a picture.

So because of "MIGHT" Israel will do nothing? That is only going to continue the same failed situation. How long can Israel continue to occupy and oppress before events will overwhelm Israel- nothing lasts forever?

No, not simply because of "might". The above is a rather realistic scenario, and not even the worst of the lot.

Since the fact is that the Palestinians are not actually up for signing a deal under such terms (West Bank only) anyway - so not quite sure why pin this non-starter on Israel.

Your other question was addressed in a previous post. Extended apologies that it will not be palatable for anyone after magic solutions, though.

[Morch]

Religion is the main excuse, but behind that is tribal affiliations. Throughout much of the ME, there is a great deal of infighting with those from the same religion, but with different tribal affiliations.

The situation between the Israeli's and Palestinians is multi-dimensional.

It is true. But it also in some way to some degree exonerates Israelis?

It was said for a million times: If Arabs stop war - there will be peace. If Jews stop war - there will be massacre.

The real problem is not land - there is plenty of it.

The real problem is not Religion - world knows many religions.

The real problem is not tribes - they existed in this area for millennia.

The real problem is - Arabs of Palestine have nothing to live for. Arabs of Palestine have built nothing in the same time Jews have built Israel. Arabs of Palestine are the"Jews" of Arab world and no other Arabs want them.

Arabs of Palestine can only hate, fight, breed and die and are nicely paid to do just this. Arabs of Palestine can not be re-educated, rehabilitated, re-located for the reasons mentioned.

Arabs of Palestine from Gaza or West Bank are not even indigenous to the Israeli territory. Now you can call me a racist...

But no, you cannot call me a racist because Arabs of Israel live with Jews, work with Jews and have plenty of reasons to live for.

Peace requires both sides to cease hostilities simultaneously. There is usually no provision for one side to keep at it until satisfaction that the other side complies. This is a sure way to get nowhere.

There's plenty of land? Seriously? Where would it be? Real estate prices in Israel,, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip indicate otherwise. If this was alluding to the old many- Arab-states-around canard, doesn't quite float anymore.

Religion is not a problem? Tell it to the nutcases on both sides, they obviously believe otherwise. Tell it to secular folks who get hurt when these nutcases have a go.

Having a stellar history is not an essential requirement for realizing national aspirations.

,

Edited October 14, 2015 by Morch

[Morch]

Religion is the main excuse, but behind that is tribal affiliations. Throughout much of the ME, there is a great deal of infighting with those from the same religion, but with different tribal affiliations.

The situation between the Israeli's and Palestinians is multi-dimensional.

It is true. But it also in some way to some degree exonerates Israelis?

It was said for a million times: If Arabs stop war - there will be peace. If Jews stop war - there will be massacre.

The real problem is not land - there is plenty of it.

The real problem is not Religion - world knows many religions.

The real problem is not tribes - they existed in this area for millennia.

The real problem is - Arabs of Palestine have nothing to live for. Arabs of Palestine have built nothing in the same time Jews have built Israel. Arabs of Palestine are the"Jews" of Arab world and no other Arabs want them.

Arabs of Palestine can only hate, fight, breed and die and are nicely paid to do just this. Arabs of Palestine can not be re-educated, rehabilitated, re-located for the reasons mentioned.

Arabs of Palestine from Gaza or West Bank are not even indigenous to the Israeli territory. Now you can call me a racist...

But no, you cannot call me a racist because Arabs of Israel live with Jews, work with Jews and have plenty of reasons to live for.

Absolute racist hogwash stereotyping an entire people. The Palestinians haven't had a chance to build anything. they've had their hands tied by colonial powers..the Ottomans, the British ...and now Israel and the USA. Just because the bully and the Zionist lobby wins doesn't make it right.

If Israel would stop controlling every aspect of their lives through occupation, just watch them prosper. What on earth do you think they are fighting and dying for in the OP....self determination!

Coming from someone regularly stereotyping Israelis, Zionists and Palestinians this is rather rich.

Unless reading different history books, the Jews/Zionists (well...Israelis, before there was an Israel) were living under the same Ottomans and Brits. One could cite official quotes detailing the relative contribution of both people to the area's development and economy. The marked difference,would probably be that when the opportunity to fulfill their respective national aspirations, it was only one of the sides that chose to do so.

The usual glossing over that period of time when the Palestinians were ruled by the Egyptians and the Jordanians, as it doesn't figure well into the narrative.

The notion that the Palestinian economy will somehow skyrocket (no pun intended) shortly after an Israeli withdrawal is a fantasy. Apart from corruption, lack of infrastructure, good governance and a proper legal system - the Palestinians have little to offer by way of natural reserves (cue hyperbole posts on off-Gaza gas drill prospects), industry and educated work force. There is no viable way for the Palestinian economy to survive, let alone thrive, without massive international support, and ongoing reliance on commerce with Israel.

That people fight for self-determination does not mean that they are actually well equipped to handle liberty with all it entails.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Morch

[Morch]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

Hundreds-Muslims-Praying-At-Al-Aqsa-Mosque-Jerusalem.jpg

Muslims pray facing Mecca.

The building in the background is the Dome of the Rock, not the al-Aqsa mosque (located on the Southern side of the Temple Mount).

Religion may not be the only or the main reason for the current fighting, but it certainly plays a role. Especially when religiously motivated violence is easily harnessed for political causes. Having a society rife with rumor mongering doesn't help much.

[JHolmesJr]

Well.....even I, with zero experience in statesmanship, can tell you that the only way this ends will be when one of them goes.

[Morch]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

More racist/religionist bigotry. Is it any wonder that the Palestinians suspect sinister Israeli motives re Al Aqsa with attitudes like yours.

I am an atheist. I dont care what people worship, but I respect their beliefs.

How do TVF poster attitudes (clueless and inflammatory as the post was) cause the Palestinians to "suspect sinister Israeli motives re Al Aqsa" ?

And if that is the case, what would be the effect of attitudes often posted here on the Israelis?

Or is this one of them one-directional by-default things?

As for not caring what people worship and respecting their beliefs - I do seem to recall a certain amount of scorn poured on Jewish beliefs regarding ancestral rights to the Holy Land. And of course, not acknowledging the significance of the Temple Mount in Jewish religion is up there as well. Carry on.

[Johpa]

How long can Israel continue to occupy and oppress before events will overwhelm Israel- nothing lasts forever?

Alas, the same fatalism could just as equally hold true for the Palestinians. In similar situation, other current "occupiers" of land such as the Chinese (Tibet and Xinjiang) or the Russians (Chechnya as well as most of Central Asia), would and have used far more prejudicial force against violent protest. Don't get too far ahead of yourself as outcomes may not be what you are anticipating. For better or worse, and we can debate the historical merits of the establishment of Israel, Israel is a fully functioning modern nation-state (and we can also debate the usefulness of that political concept as well) that is not going to be "overwhelmed" short of the final battle at Har Megido (Armageddon). Alas, there are many very powerful political forces in the evangelical Christian right in America who are eagerly anticipating such an event as the harbinger of their own peculiar Messiah's return. Islam is not the only monotheistic religion with a demented eschatology adhered to within its more conservative elements.

[dexterm]

Armed Israelis, who want to live, confronted by youths with nothing to live for, armed with knives and stones. Something of David and Goliath in this story, and we know who won that one!

Many of the Israelis attacked were unarmed civilians, most of the attacks were carried out within Israel proper or in East Jerusalem.

Some of the attackers were Arab Israeli citizens, and many of the armed Israelis are youths themselves.

A bit more complex than a simplified analogy (and anyway, thought relying on ancient biblical sources was deemed invalid?).

As for "nothing to live for", lets not get over dramatic. It doesn't quite capture the situation as well. That West Bank Palestinians are oppressed is true enough, but their situation is far from being as dire as meriting a "nothing to live for" caption. If this was the case, the violence would have been more severe and wide-spread than it currently is. Life in the West Bank, unappealing as it is, still beats current conditions in Syria, Libya, Gaza and parts of Iraq (just to name a few examples). Nothing to be proud about as far as Israel goes, and maybe not much of a consolation for Palestinians, but realistically true.

That's a silly analogy. 3 wrongs or whatever don't make a right.

Life in Libya is possibly better than life in Somalia or Darfur but it doesn't make any of the situations right.

Especially since the dire situations for Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza today are of Israel's creation.

[dexterm]

Sorry, thread full,

Religion plays a part but it's not the root cause.

The root cause is the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements and the expulsion of Palestinians from their land.

Morch wrote...

Root how?

The conflict was well on its way prior to the Israeli illegal settlements in the West Bank coming on stage.

The illegal Israeli settlements serve to preserve and fuel the conflict further, but were not the cause.

Same goes for the "expulsion" (there were more than one factor at play) - conflict was already on when this became a reality.

It may be said that the international treatment of Palestinian refugees contributed to making a resolution harder to reach.

The quest of finding an ultimate reason for the conflict is a doomed undertaking.

Very neat to say its all in the too hard basket and sweep under the carpet the root cause of the problem...Zionist colonialism.That's exactly the same problem that is causing all the trouble today. Why cant Israel be simply satisfied with all the land it has appropriated one way or another prior to 1967. Why does it want more?

[dexterm]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

I think the delusion is in not realising that Israel can not continue to occupy a people, a people who, whatsmore, are recognised as a state by 70% of the world.

I think the delusion is not realising that soon the world will take a stand and slap the spoiled brat and teach it some manners and some rules.

70 years ago, the world, via the UN, gave the Zionists a state for the Jewish refugees of Europe. It was a needed step, and it was done, despite displacing the indigenous people. Since then, the Zionists have acted like a spoiled brat, taking more "because we want it", thumbing it's nose to the world, the UN, that created it, and the world has stood by, indulging the brat, afraid of it's tantrums and manipulations.

As with any spoiled brat, the screams, the tantrums, and the selfishness become too much for even the most indulgent parent. A smack, and sent to sit in the corner will be forthcoming.

There is also a certain evident delusion in not realizing that no viable solution could be reached without Israel's assent.and cooperation, international pressure notwithstanding. Attempts to force a not agreed upon resolution might end up with an agreement of sorts, but are not likely to be conductive for it holding up to reality.

As usual, there is no mention of Israel neighbors and the Palestinians rejecting that very same UN resolution. No mention of actions taken by Arab countries and the Palestinians to undo the UN resolution. No mention of two Arab countries taking over them future Palestinian territories (Egypt and Jordan).

Not that I go much for simplified analogies, but seems the spoiled brat one above could be applied for the Palestinians with ease: throwing a fit not wanting to share, then whining when reality bites.

Yes, of course ther has to be Israel's assent.

The Palestinians have laid their cards on the the table...roughly 67 borders, a small slice of Jerusalem less than they had before as their capital, return of a few geriatric Palestinians to their homes whence they were ethnically cleansed or compensation (internationally funded probably...cheap at twice the price for an end to war and a boost to the global economy through reconstruction) ......Where are Israel's cards?

[dexterm]

Israel keeps doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. They never learn, its never their fault. Unable to look in the house of mirrors.

Just keep expanding settlements, need land for the chosen people. No one else matters.

What expansions of settlements is referred to in connection with the OP?

Netanyahu: Now is the time for unity government, not announcements of building in settlements

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-The-Islamist-extremism-plaguing-the-Middle-East-has-arrived-at-Israels-doorstep-421367

Not mentioned in the linked article but appearing elsewhere, a ministerial committee meeting regarding legislation of further Palestinian land appropriation was cancelled, as timing seemed extra-inflammatory.

Speaking of doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results - how is the current Palestinian violence promoting their national aspirations?

That's a very interesting question.

Israelis at the moment are worried Can we ever live with these people who want to kill us when we visit a shopping center in the Occupied Territories?.So what can they do about this?

1. Do as Netanyahu is doing..manage the status quo conflict, impose curfews and other draconian laws, but that's not a permanent solution.

2. Remove the problem. Remove 4.5 million resident Palestinians and make them other countries' problem, probably Europe's with another refugee influx crisis.That will not work either ...the world and the EU would not tolerate a 3rd round of Palestinian ethnic cleansing. besides it would not bring Israel permanent peace. the problem for Israeli security could always escalate into a world wide phenomenon.

3. Get out of the Occupied Territories to the safety of pre 67 borders. Yes I know some of the attacks have taken place there too, but with a recognized permanent peace agreement there would be no need for any attacks at all. notwithstanding there will always be disgruntled nutjobs on both sides.

Despite all the grief and tragedy on both sides, maybe the current round of violence is actuallly making something happen i.e. making Israelis realize there is no future for them in perpetuating the status quo. It has pushed forward their lackadaisical 48 year old agenda that they need to find a permanent solution.

Personally, I would much much rather that Israeli politicians worked out this obvious endgame scenario for themselves and avoid all this unnecessary violence.

Edited October 14, 2015 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Religion is the main excuse, but behind that is tribal affiliations. Throughout much of the ME, there is a great deal of infighting with those from the same religion, but with different tribal affiliations.

The situation between the Israeli's and Palestinians is multi-dimensional.

It is true. But it also in some way to some degree exonerates Israelis?

It was said for a million times: If Arabs stop war - there will be peace. If Jews stop war - there will be massacre.

The real problem is not land - there is plenty of it.

The real problem is not Religion - world knows many religions.

The real problem is not tribes - they existed in this area for millennia.

The real problem is - Arabs of Palestine have nothing to live for. Arabs of Palestine have built nothing in the same time Jews have built Israel. Arabs of Palestine are the"Jews" of Arab world and no other Arabs want them.

Arabs of Palestine can only hate, fight, breed and die and are nicely paid to do just this. Arabs of Palestine can not be re-educated, rehabilitated, re-located for the reasons mentioned.

Arabs of Palestine from Gaza or West Bank are not even indigenous to the Israeli territory. Now you can call me a racist...

But no, you cannot call me a racist because Arabs of Israel live with Jews, work with Jews and have plenty of reasons to live for.

Absolute racist hogwash stereotyping an entire people. The Palestinians haven't had a chance to build anything. they've had their hands tied by colonial powers..the Ottomans, the British ...and now Israel and the USA. Just because the bully and the Zionist lobby wins doesn't make it right.

If Israel would stop controlling every aspect of their lives through occupation, just watch them prosper. What on earth do you think they are fighting and dying for in the OP....self determination!

Coming from someone regularly stereotyping Israelis, Zionists and Palestinians this is rather rich.

Unless reading different history books, the Jews/Zionists (well...Israelis, before there was an Israel) were living under the same Ottomans and Brits. One could cite official quotes detailing the relative contribution of both people to the area's development and economy. The marked difference,would probably be that when the opportunity to fulfill their respective national aspirations, it was only one of the sides that chose to do so.

The usual glossing over that period of time when the Palestinians were ruled by the Egyptians and the Jordanians, as it doesn't figure well into the narrative.

The notion that the Palestinian economy will somehow skyrocket (no pun intended) shortly after an Israeli withdrawal is a fantasy. Apart from corruption, lack of infrastructure, good governance and a proper legal system - the Palestinians have little to offer by way of natural reserves (cue hyperbole posts on off-Gaza gas drill prospects), industry and educated work force. There is no viable way for the Palestinian economy to survive, let alone thrive, without massive international support, and ongoing reliance on commerce with Israel.

That people fight for self-determination does not mean that they are actually well equipped to handle liberty with all it entails.

..untrue. I commonly differentiate between the many righteous Israelis who are genuinely seeking peace and bigoted Zionists who only believe in racial supremacy.

I would love to debate pre 1947 Palestine politics, the rise of Zionism, Ottoman and British colonialism, the Nakbah etc...albeit all relevant I agree but beyond the remit of the present topic.

[Morch]

During the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland security forces were often confronted by youths throwing rocks and Molotov Cocktails. I don't recall UK security forces using live ammunition during clashes with stone throwing demonstrators & regularly killing them. Why is it so different with the Israeli response?

Take a look at the report below. IDF used deadly force when shooting across open ground from behind the protection of razor wire fences. Why?

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/israeli-palestinian-demonstrators

I am not sure that direct comparisons can be drawn between conflict involving different cultures, religions and historical background. Or, if you wish to put it another way, why use this specific example as basis for comparison?

The two incidents which resulted with Palestinian demonstrators being shot on the Gaza border should not have happened. This was acknowledged later on by the IDF and the Israeli government. As far as I can understand, units in the area were not properly briefed for this sort of encounter, therefore interpreting the situation as conforming with standard ROE. I would say that the responsibility lies less with the soldiers, and more with command. They ought to have known that there would be such a demonstration, and deploy proper forces (namely Border Guard & Police) which are better suited to handle these situations.

The upshot is that on several occasions since, Palestinian demonstrators stormed the fence, and broke through to the Israeli side. The IDF units present did not fire live ammunition at them, and had a rough time getting the Palestinians back to the other side. There are rumors not all are accounted for, but no idea if that is the case as nothing official on it. Doubtful that the current policy is at the Gaza border is sustainable, if these breaches are repeated, especially if these occur nearer to Israeli settlements.

The area near the fence is a de-facto no-go zone, and the linked article notwithstanding, Palestinians know to avoid it. The Hamas does not currently prevent the demonstrators from marching on the fence (in fact, encouraging them), while at the same time other voices in Gaza call it futile and suicidal.

Compared with the poor handling of these incidents, riots on the West Bank, East Jerusalem and within Israel are not without bloodshed, but perhaps not much worse relative to past conflagrations. Considering the number of incidents and participants, are fatality figures markedly up? I think not, although it might depend on which period is used in the comparison. Another factor not receiving much acknowledgement is locality. The level of cooperation exhibited by the Palestinian security forces in keeping a lead on things is not uniform, but varies according to local commanders willingness to go against the grain. In the same way, areas with higher numbers of Israeli units adept at handling demonstrations, see less blood spilled.

Much was made of the supposed permit to use live ammunition against rock throwers, mostly without paying much attention to facts. The main one being that use of live ammunition against rock throwers was already part of the ROE. The main changes made were that while previously officers could only legally use live ammunition in cases where their own person was under clear threat, they can now do so when others nearby are threatened. Also, age verification prior to opening fire is not viable under many relevant situations - so while the new regulations do not condone the shooting of younger kids, teens are probably at greater risk than previously. The rest of the measures applied (or in the process of being applied) are setting minimum sentences for convicted rock throwers, cutting some tax benefits for parents, and in cases which result in casualties possibly cancelling resident permits (applies to East Jerusalem). Note that probably not all of the above will survive once they hit the Supreme Court, as often happens with right wing legislation attempts in Israel.

[Morch]

The mainstream media press coverage on this latest wave of Palestinian terrorism has been quite biased against Israel. The stories usually lead with words like Israelis shoot Palestinian in the headline and then you have to get into the story to read why ... that they were shooting an actual murderous terrorist that had already seriously injured or killed some random Jewish people. Recent event ... two Palestinian teens 13 and 17 critically injured a 13 year old Jewish boy (the terrorist stabbed him almost a dozen times) and seriously injured a 24 year old Jewish man. One of the terrorists was shot dead and the other is receiving world class medical care at an Israeli hospital. I hope he survives to rot in jail.

Just a sample of the kind of thing that is happening there DAILY.

It's OK to report these events but the leads should really be about the terrorist acts that necessitated a reaction.

Of course the international media are negative towards Israel. Israel is the occupier and invader. They are the bullies.They hold all the peace cards and all the heavy weapons.

Why does the Israeli cabinet approve live ammunition against stone throwers. It is pouring gas on the fire rather than calming things down.

What was the crime warranting the death sentence for 9 Palestinians including a 12 year old, murdered by sadistic IDF, when Gazan demonstrators rolled burning tires towards the border fence behind which the IDF in all their body armor and vehicles were safe. Where were the rubber bullets, water cannons, tear gas, pepper spray.... That way you dont create martyrs; that way you don't escalate the situation...unless you actually want to.

This negative PR could be a foretaste of what might happen if Israel tried something even more sinister.

The tide of public opinion has turned against Israel. More people globally are now aware of the great Israeli hoax: play the victim, when you are in fact the aggressor.

It is not so much a question of international press giving Israel a bad time, as it glosses over Palestinian violence.

Despite the incessant posts to the contrary, the Palestinians are accountable for some of the violence. Despite the incessant posts proclaiming it, use of live ammunition against rock throwers was already approved when the current conflagration started.

The IDF actions in the Gaza border incidents were acknowledged and reviewed by Israel, and a different policy is temporarily in place - so far resulting in less casualties. All those anti-demonstration measures were not deployed, and the forces were not even briefed that such a demonstration would take place. As expected, you choose to interpret it as a secret Israeli plan to escalate the situation, while ignoring simpler and more probable explanations. Considering Israel's reactions after the casualty toll was realized it seems unlikely that this was an intended result.

The tide of public opinion turned against Israel years ago. That is no reason to celebrate biased and misleading reporting.

[Morch]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

Hundreds-Muslims-Praying-At-Al-Aqsa-Mosque-Jerusalem.jpg

The Muslim prayers are indeed facing to the East.

But on that particular location, the wailing wall remains in the back, in the West...too...

Muslims face Mecca when praying. If it happens to be East of the location, the direction of prayer is East.

Mosques are either built to face Mecca or contain an architectural feature indicating the right direction.

There's also a smartphone app. for those in need.

Mecca is South East from Jerusalem, so not really fits the failed comeback attempt.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Morch

[Morch]

Don't recall N Ireland being attacked by 5 Arab armies either, hundreds of rockets fired over the border in a few weeks or over sixty years of murderous attacks by terrorists threatening to push it into the sea. The Irish conflict was childs play in comparison. The provo supporters did get a smacking on a certain Sunday though, and been crying about it ever since.

The dusty old 5 Arab armies myth has been debunked many times before, as has the stop the rockets mantra...off topic deflections all. Another thread, another time maybe. The OP concerns Israeli disproportionate force and death toll against Palestinians, many of them children. What can be done to calm things down now. Look to the future.

Yes we all aware you prefer Israel does nothing, because poor little Arabs ONLY throw rocks and molotovs or fire only 100000 rockets

What can be done? for starters, retarded parents can keep their children at home, instead of sending them to the front lines because it makes great headlines

I did not say that Israel should do nothing...I have suggested many alternatives for crowd control that don't create fatalities and martyrs. They may serve to calm the situation down, rather than Israel's present course of action which only inflames.

The rest of your post is hyperbole, muddying timelines, deflection and racism.

How would continuing to use the same crowd control measures used before bring about different results?

Are there currently more Palestinian casualties now compared to similar riots in the past? (Note it was conceded that the IDF actions in the Gaza border were out of line, and that terrorists killed following knife attacks etc. do not figure in this count).

[Morch]

Armed Israelis, who want to live, confronted by youths with nothing to live for, armed with knives and stones. Something of David and Goliath in this story, and we know who won that one!

Many of the Israelis attacked were unarmed civilians, most of the attacks were carried out within Israel proper or in East Jerusalem.

Some of the attackers were Arab Israeli citizens, and many of the armed Israelis are youths themselves.

A bit more complex than a simplified analogy (and anyway, thought relying on ancient biblical sources was deemed invalid?).

As for "nothing to live for", lets not get over dramatic. It doesn't quite capture the situation as well. That West Bank Palestinians are oppressed is true enough, but their situation is far from being as dire as meriting a "nothing to live for" caption. If this was the case, the violence would have been more severe and wide-spread than it currently is. Life in the West Bank, unappealing as it is, still beats current conditions in Syria, Libya, Gaza and parts of Iraq (just to name a few examples). Nothing to be proud about as far as Israel goes, and maybe not much of a consolation for Palestinians, but realistically true.

That's a silly analogy. 3 wrongs or whatever don't make a right.

Life in Libya is possibly better than life in Somalia or Darfur but it doesn't make any of the situations right.

Especially since the dire situations for Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza today are of Israel's creation.

Twist away...

That was not an analogy nor a justification. I was simply pointing out that, factually, there are worse places than the West Bank in the Middle East - and that the "nothing to live for" was a hyperbole statement. The "nothing to be proud about as far as Israel goes" kinda indicates this is nothing along the lines suggested in your post.

The Palestinian's predicament is not solely Israel's doing, even if your posts insist about it. The Palestinian could have made better choices at certain junctions,, and Arab countries contributed more than their fair share for the current situation.

[Morch]

Sorry, thread full,

Religion plays a part but it's not the root cause.

The root cause is the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements and the expulsion of Palestinians from their land.

Morch wrote...

Root how?

The conflict was well on its way prior to the Israeli illegal settlements in the West Bank coming on stage.

The illegal Israeli settlements serve to preserve and fuel the conflict further, but were not the cause.

Same goes for the "expulsion" (there were more than one factor at play) - conflict was already on when this became a reality.

It may be said that the international treatment of Palestinian refugees contributed to making a resolution harder to reach.

The quest of finding an ultimate reason for the conflict is a doomed undertaking.

Very neat to say its all in the too hard basket and sweep under the carpet the root cause of the problem...Zionist colonialism.That's exactly the same problem that is causing all the trouble today. Why cant Israel be simply satisfied with all the land it has appropriated one way or another prior to 1967. Why does it want more?

No, that is what you claim to be the root cause.

There were attacks on Jews by Arabs even before Jewish presence became more prominent.

Most conflicts are not easily definable using singular causes, this one is no exception. That is, unless one is an ideologue or a propagandist.

[Johpa]

Personally, I would much much rather that Israeli politicians worked out this obvious endgame scenario for themselves and avoid all this unnecessary violence.

As one who is relatively more knowledgeable of the region than most, I am quite impressed if you have come up with an "obvious endgame scenario" to the situation. I wholeheartedly agree that the expansion of settlements into the occupied territories was a major blunder, a huge political miscalculation on the part of the Likud, and simply wrong. But there still exists a sizable element within the Arab world that has long had, and still maintains but a single goal, and that is the destruction of the State of Israel. At some level, the expansion into the territories, the building of the wall of failure, the overreactions of force by the Israeli polity are all, to some degree, are but responses to the continuous existential threat that will not disappear if the Israelis withdraw to the 1967 borders. And thus, unless there is a substantial change in the Ummah of the Arab world, we would, given a withdrawal to earlier borders, to paraphrase of all people Hillary Clinton, be back here in 10 years having this same conversation. Given the miscalculations by the Israelis, given the miscalculations of the western powers throughout the region over the past century, I don't see the Arab Ummah moving towards any significant change of heart. I see no obvious endgame here. Sorry.

[Morch]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

I think the delusion is in not realising that Israel can not continue to occupy a people, a people who, whatsmore, are recognised as a state by 70% of the world.

I think the delusion is not realising that soon the world will take a stand and slap the spoiled brat and teach it some manners and some rules.

70 years ago, the world, via the UN, gave the Zionists a state for the Jewish refugees of Europe. It was a needed step, and it was done, despite displacing the indigenous people. Since then, the Zionists have acted like a spoiled brat, taking more "because we want it", thumbing it's nose to the world, the UN, that created it, and the world has stood by, indulging the brat, afraid of it's tantrums and manipulations.

As with any spoiled brat, the screams, the tantrums, and the selfishness become too much for even the most indulgent parent. A smack, and sent to sit in the corner will be forthcoming.

There is also a certain evident delusion in not realizing that no viable solution could be reached without Israel's assent.and cooperation, international pressure notwithstanding. Attempts to force a not agreed upon resolution might end up with an agreement of sorts, but are not likely to be conductive for it holding up to reality.

As usual, there is no mention of Israel neighbors and the Palestinians rejecting that very same UN resolution. No mention of actions taken by Arab countries and the Palestinians to undo the UN resolution. No mention of two Arab countries taking over them future Palestinian territories (Egypt and Jordan).

Not that I go much for simplified analogies, but seems the spoiled brat one above could be applied for the Palestinians with ease: throwing a fit not wanting to share, then whining when reality bites.

Yes, of course ther has to be Israel's assent.

The Palestinians have laid their cards on the the table...roughly 67 borders, a small slice of Jerusalem less than they had before as their capital, return of a few geriatric Palestinians to their homes whence they were ethnically cleansed or compensation (internationally funded probably...cheap at twice the price for an end to war and a boost to the global economy through reconstruction) ......Where are Israel's cards?

Making things up again, as usual.

The Palestinian did no such thing as you describe. First of all, there is no unified Palestinian leadership to deal with - one is partially willing but unable to deliver, the other (despite claims to the contrary) is not game. Second, Jerusalem was never the capital of any Palestine, according to the 1947 partition plan it was to be administered jointly under international supervision (not a very likely proposition to begin with). Third, the Right or Return being limited to include "a few geriatric Palestinians" is a not an official Palestinian position, and the same goes for replacing the Right of Return with compensation arrangements. Additionally, there is no forthcoming guarantee from anyone to pick the tab, and it does not solve the issue of Palestinians currently living in Arab countries, without citizenship.

[Morch]

Israel keeps doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. They never learn, its never their fault. Unable to look in the house of mirrors.

Just keep expanding settlements, need land for the chosen people. No one else matters.

What expansions of settlements is referred to in connection with the OP?

Netanyahu: Now is the time for unity government, not announcements of building in settlements

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-The-Islamist-extremism-plaguing-the-Middle-East-has-arrived-at-Israels-doorstep-421367

Not mentioned in the linked article but appearing elsewhere, a ministerial committee meeting regarding legislation of further Palestinian land appropriation was cancelled, as timing seemed extra-inflammatory.

Speaking of doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results - how is the current Palestinian violence promoting their national aspirations?

That's a very interesting question.

Israelis at the moment are worried Can we ever live with these people who want to kill us when we visit a shopping center in the Occupied Territories?.So what can they do about this?

1. Do as Netanyahu is doing..manage the status quo conflict, impose curfews and other draconian laws, but that's not a permanent solution.

2. Remove the problem. Remove 4.5 million resident Palestinians and make them other countries' problem, probably Europe's with another refugee influx crisis.That will not work either ...the world and the EU would not tolerate a 3rd round of Palestinian ethnic cleansing. besides it would not bring Israel permanent peace. the problem for Israeli security could always escalate into a world wide phenomenon.

3. Get out of the Occupied Territories to the safety of pre 67 borders. Yes I know some of the attacks have taken place there too, but with a recognized permanent peace agreement there would be no need for any attacks at all. notwithstanding there will always be disgruntled nutjobs on both sides.

Despite all the grief and tragedy on both sides, maybe the current round of violence is actuallly making something happen i.e. making Israelis realize there is no future for them in perpetuating the status quo. It has pushed forward their lackadaisical 48 year old agenda that they need to find a permanent solution.

Personally, I would much much rather that Israeli politicians worked out this obvious endgame scenario for themselves and avoid all this unnecessary violence.

Again with the same talking points?

There is no one in a position of power in Israel calling for mass deportation of Palestinians, there is no general public support for that sort of thing as well. On top, Israel simply does not have the stomach to carry out something on that scale. Basically, it's just one of your standard propaganda red herring statements.

There is currently no one in a position of power on both sides that can deliver a peace deal, and there is even more acute shortage of leaders willing to make the effort. Saying Israel "got all the cards" and similar slogans, ignores the fact that there cannot be a viable peace without either popular support or a determined strong leadership on the Palestinian side, neither in evidence. Unilaterally withdrawing does not work out all that great.

The current violence is a drop in the ocean compared with previous instances (the Intifadas, rocket attacks). Their long term effects on Israeli public opinion was to harden positions and develop a sense of fatalism regarding these bouts of violence. What can be seen now is an initial public reaction, if things will continue, more than likely people will simply adjust. Very unlikely that it would have the effect you imagine.

This ongoing presentation of the Palestinians as playing a passive role in the conflict resolution and as unaccountable for anything, is not helpful nor very respectful of the Palestinians.

[oncearugge]

A few years ago met and became a friend of an elderly Palestinian "refugee" who lived in Jordan.

I once asked the old man if he would like to return home.

"Yes" he said "but only when those crazy people are removed".

The "crazy" people he was referring to were Palestinian extremists.

[Morch]

It is true. But it also in some way to some degree exonerates Israelis?

It was said for a million times: If Arabs stop war - there will be peace. If Jews stop war - there will be massacre.

The real problem is not land - there is plenty of it.

The real problem is not Religion - world knows many religions.

The real problem is not tribes - they existed in this area for millennia.

The real problem is - Arabs of Palestine have nothing to live for. Arabs of Palestine have built nothing in the same time Jews have built Israel. Arabs of Palestine are the"Jews" of Arab world and no other Arabs want them.

Arabs of Palestine can only hate, fight, breed and die and are nicely paid to do just this. Arabs of Palestine can not be re-educated, rehabilitated, re-located for the reasons mentioned.

Arabs of Palestine from Gaza or West Bank are not even indigenous to the Israeli territory. Now you can call me a racist...

But no, you cannot call me a racist because Arabs of Israel live with Jews, work with Jews and have plenty of reasons to live for.

Absolute racist hogwash stereotyping an entire people. The Palestinians haven't had a chance to build anything. they've had their hands tied by colonial powers..the Ottomans, the British ...and now Israel and the USA. Just because the bully and the Zionist lobby wins doesn't make it right.

If Israel would stop controlling every aspect of their lives through occupation, just watch them prosper. What on earth do you think they are fighting and dying for in the OP....self determination!

Coming from someone regularly stereotyping Israelis, Zionists and Palestinians this is rather rich.

Unless reading different history books, the Jews/Zionists (well...Israelis, before there was an Israel) were living under the same Ottomans and Brits. One could cite official quotes detailing the relative contribution of both people to the area's development and economy. The marked difference,would probably be that when the opportunity to fulfill their respective national aspirations, it was only one of the sides that chose to do so.

The usual glossing over that period of time when the Palestinians were ruled by the Egyptians and the Jordanians, as it doesn't figure well into the narrative.

The notion that the Palestinian economy will somehow skyrocket (no pun intended) shortly after an Israeli withdrawal is a fantasy. Apart from corruption, lack of infrastructure, good governance and a proper legal system - the Palestinians have little to offer by way of natural reserves (cue hyperbole posts on off-Gaza gas drill prospects), industry and educated work force. There is no viable way for the Palestinian economy to survive, let alone thrive, without massive international support, and ongoing reliance on commerce with Israel.

That people fight for self-determination does not mean that they are actually well equipped to handle liberty with all it entails.

..untrue. I commonly differentiate between the many righteous Israelis who are genuinely seeking peace and bigoted Zionists who only believe in racial supremacy.

I would love to debate pre 1947 Palestine politics, the rise of Zionism, Ottoman and British colonialism, the Nakbah etc...albeit all relevant I agree but beyond the remit of the present topic.

Umm no, there you go again - holding Zionist opinions does not necessarily mean being anti-peace, or being a bigoted racist.

Curious to know how does Netanyahu's left wing opposition figure into this view of Zionism.

[Scott]

Off-topic post with inappropriate comparison and misinformation has been removed

[thaibeachlovers]

That's a very interesting question.

Israelis at the moment are worried Can we ever live with these people who want to kill us when we visit a shopping center in the Occupied Territories?.So what can they do about this?

1. Do as Netanyahu is doing..manage the status quo conflict, impose curfews and other draconian laws, but that's not a permanent solution.

2. Remove the problem. Remove 4.5 million resident Palestinians and make them other countries' problem, probably Europe's with another refugee influx crisis.That will not work either ...the world and the EU would not tolerate a 3rd round of Palestinian ethnic cleansing. besides it would not bring Israel permanent peace. the problem for Israeli security could always escalate into a world wide phenomenon.

3. Get out of the Occupied Territories to the safety of pre 67 borders. Yes I know some of the attacks have taken place there too, but with a recognized permanent peace agreement there would be no need for any attacks at all. notwithstanding there will always be disgruntled nutjobs on both sides.

Despite all the grief and tragedy on both sides, maybe the current round of violence is actuallly making something happen i.e. making Israelis realize there is no future for them in perpetuating the status quo. It has pushed forward their lackadaisical 48 year old agenda that they need to find a permanent solution.

Personally, I would much much rather that Israeli politicians worked out this obvious endgame scenario for themselves and avoid all this unnecessary violence.

Again with the same talking points?

There is no one in a position of power in Israel calling for mass deportation of Palestinians, there is no general public support for that sort of thing as well. On top, Israel simply does not have the stomach to carry out something on that scale. Basically, it's just one of your standard propaganda red herring statements.

There is currently no one in a position of power on both sides that can deliver a peace deal, and there is even more acute shortage of leaders willing to make the effort. Saying Israel "got all the cards" and similar slogans, ignores the fact that there cannot be a viable peace without either popular support or a determined strong leadership on the Palestinian side, neither in evidence. Unilaterally withdrawing does not work out all that great.

The current violence is a drop in the ocean compared with previous instances (the Intifadas, rocket attacks). Their long term effects on Israeli public opinion was to harden positions and develop a sense of fatalism regarding these bouts of violence. What can be seen now is an initial public reaction, if things will continue, more than likely people will simply adjust. Very unlikely that it would have the effect you imagine.

This ongoing presentation of the Palestinians as playing a passive role in the conflict resolution and as unaccountable for anything, is not helpful nor very respectful of the Palestinians.

Their long term effects on Israeli public opinion was to harden positions and develop a sense of fatalism regarding these bouts of violence. What can be seen now is an initial public reaction, if things will continue, more than likely people will simply adjust. Very unlikely that it would have the effect you imagine.

You seem not to take into account international pressure. Given sufficient provocation, even the US will not be able to justify unconditional support for Israel. Remember how apartheid was destroyed by international pressure forcing the US to turn against the Sth Africa clique.

quotes removed to allow posting

[thaibeachlovers]

Israel keeps doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. They never learn, its never their fault. Unable to look in the house of mirrors.

Just keep expanding settlements, need land for the chosen people. No one else matters.

What expansions of settlements is referred to in connection with the OP?

Netanyahu: Now is the time for unity government, not announcements of building in settlements

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-The-Islamist-extremism-plaguing-the-Middle-East-has-arrived-at-Israels-doorstep-421367

Not mentioned in the linked article but appearing elsewhere, a ministerial committee meeting regarding legislation of further Palestinian land appropriation was cancelled, as timing seemed extra-inflammatory.

Speaking of doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results - how is the current Palestinian violence promoting their national aspirations?

Not mentioned in the linked article but appearing elsewhere, a ministerial committee meeting regarding legislation of further Palestinian land appropriation was cancelled, as timing seemed extra-inflammatory.

You write that as if it were a good thing.

In fact it shows the Israeli government to be a bunch of crooks for even considering legislation to steal Palestinian land as though they have some right to it.

Edited October 14, 2015 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

Personally, I would much much rather that Israeli politicians worked out this obvious endgame scenario for themselves and avoid all this unnecessary violence.

As one who is relatively more knowledgeable of the region than most, I am quite impressed if you have come up with an "obvious endgame scenario" to the situation. I wholeheartedly agree that the expansion of settlements into the occupied territories was a major blunder, a huge political miscalculation on the part of the Likud, and simply wrong. But there still exists a sizable element within the Arab world that has long had, and still maintains but a single goal, and that is the destruction of the State of Israel. At some level, the expansion into the territories, the building of the wall of failure, the overreactions of force by the Israeli polity are all, to some degree, are but responses to the continuous existential threat that will not disappear if the Israelis withdraw to the 1967 borders. And thus, unless there is a substantial change in the Ummah of the Arab world, we would, given a withdrawal to earlier borders, to paraphrase of all people Hillary Clinton, be back here in 10 years having this same conversation. Given the miscalculations by the Israelis, given the miscalculations of the western powers throughout the region over the past century, I don't see the Arab Ummah moving towards any significant change of heart. I see no obvious endgame here. Sorry.

I agree that the Arabs are unlikely to have a change of heart, especially as they see Israel continue to steal their land ( would you accept that? ).

So, unless Israel makes a unilateral change, we will be having the same conversation in 10, 20, 30 years time.