Chonburi immigration - Extension

[pontious]

That is not a problem if - each office posts on their notice board that in 3 months time seasoning for extensions using the combo method will be required. To just change it unannounced is not fair to those who use it. Does not effect me thankfully.

OK But now 90 day online reporting is a reality I and many others only need to visit the immigration office once per year.

I am not going to make trips just to read a notice board.

I would prefer that National changes be announced in the National press and local changes in the local press. That coupled with the information dispersed via TV should ensure most people are kept up to date.

Poor wording of my post I agree - I dont expect you to go down and read the notice board. TV posters would soon announce any new changes they had seen at immigration on their visits.. National Press and even local news is highly doubtful.

[Suradit69]

I haven't read through all the back and forth bickering in this thread, so I may have missed this ...

Did the O/P's bank book and manager's letter indicate that the bank balance was regularly augmented by foreign originated deposits? If there were no deposits indicated or only deposits made locally, maybe they thought the source of the money in the bank held for less than 3 months was suspicious.

As in all things, they do have the right/responsibility to exercise discretion, so possibly this was a one-off occurrence for reasons the O/P didn't fully understand rather than some general policy shift at Jomtien.

Quite often there are reports that imply a change in procedure which never prove to be true ... although they do tend to get certain armchair legal "experts" in a state of heightened excitement over what turns out to be nothing.

[pontious]

I haven't read through all the back and forth bickering in this thread, so I may have missed this ...

Did the O/P's bank book and manager's letter indicate that the bank balance was regularly augmented by foreign originated deposits? If there were no deposits indicated or only deposits made locally, maybe they thought the source of the money in the bank held for less than 3 months was suspicious.

As in all things, they do have the right/responsibility to exercise discretion, so possibly this was a one-off occurrence for reasons the O/P didn't fully understand rather than some general policy shift at Jomtien.

Quite often there are reports that imply a change in procedure which never prove to be true ... although they do tend to get certain armchair legal "experts" in a state of heightened excitement over what turns out to be nothing.

There are only 31 replies to this topic so sorry you did not have time to read through such an enormous thread. I may have missed it but I did not notice any bickering. There are reports ( not the OPs ) that SOME offices are insisting on seasoning. As it is probably nothing you will be able to stay in 'your non heightened excitement state.'

[Jingthing]

There does seem to be a trend of a national pattern of some kind of change in enforcement for money seasoning for combination retirement extensions. I say be cautious now and suggest everyone season those accounts. If later, it turns out it was some temporary noise and things go back to normal, that can change. But why risk problems if there is something you can do about it, in this case, I think it will be an easy thing to do for most applicants.

[peterrabbit]

Was there on Monday doing the same but had the 800k seasoned with bank letter etc. No problem but other people in front were creating and waving bank books about but they were all refused visas. Looks like a 'move of the goal posts' has been ordered from above.

[oncearugge]

Was there on Monday doing the same but had the 800k seasoned with bank letter etc. No problem but other people in front were creating and waving bank books about but they were all refused visas. Looks like a 'move of the goal posts' has been ordered from above.

The thread is not about those with a "seasoned" 800K but those seeking an extension of stay (not a visa) with a combination of Income and Money in the bank totaling 800k which in the past has not required "seasoning"

[Jingthing]

Was there on Monday doing the same but had the 800k seasoned with bank letter etc. No problem but other people in front were creating and waving bank books about but they were all refused visas. Looks like a 'move of the goal posts' has been ordered from above.

The thread is not about those with a "seasoned" 800K but those seeking an extension of stay (not a visa) with a combination of Income and Money in the bank totaling 800k which in the past has not required "seasoning"

That's true but the clues he provided about the stress he overheard at Jomtien immigration office retirement desk are of interest. That could also be related to something else reported here recently ... changes in the rules for address proof during extensions.

I guess many people are going to start to wonder -- are we being jerked around (again)?

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[oncearugge]

Was there on Monday doing the same but had the 800k seasoned with bank letter etc. No problem but other people in front were creating and waving bank books about but they were all refused visas. Looks like a 'move of the goal posts' has been ordered from above.

The thread is not about those with a "seasoned" 800K but those seeking an extension of stay (not a visa) with a combination of Income and Money in the bank totaling 800k which in the past has not required "seasoning"

That's true but the clues he provided about the stress he overheard at Jomtien immigration office retirement desk are of interest. That could also be related to something else reported here recently ... changes in the rules for address proof during extensions.

I guess many people are going to start to wonder -- are we being jerked around (again)?

I have lived in Thailand for a long time.

I am not 'we' and have never been "jerked around" .

Maybe I have been unlucky and will experience this "jerking" next year but I doubt that will happen

[Jingthing]

I have been ... and changing the enforcement rules without giving fair warning for people to prepare is unreasonable in any language or country.

Sorry, but I do think it's important that future potential retirees to Thailand understand ... the residence SECURITY that you have living here on annual retirement extensions is limited. Literally -- to ONE year. Sure you may be able to live here for the rest of your life on such extensions, but there are no guarantees offered by the authorities here. Thailand's retirement system is easy compared to most countries offering such options, but the one thing Thailand has never offered retired expats is any path towards increase in residence security status over time. First year, 30th year, on the same TEMPORARY status. You're only as legal as your last extension and if you're heavily invested here ... that is not such a good feeling. If the bigwigs decide to shake some or many of us away ... it is easy to do so.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[oncearugge]

I have been ... and changing the enforcement rules without giving fair warning for people to prepare is unreasonable in any language or country.

Sorry, but I do think it's important that future potential retirees to Thailand understand ... the residence SECURITY that you have living here on annual retirement extensions is limited. Sure you may be able to live here for the rest of your life on such extensions, but there are no guarantees offered by the authorities here. Thailand's retirement system is easy compared to most countries offering such options, but the one thing Thailand has never offered retired expats is any path towards increase in residence security status over time. First year, 30th year, on the same status. You're only as legal as your last extension and if you're heavily invested here ... that is not such a good feeling.

Sorry to learn about your experience.

I agree that security of stay is an issue but I do not believe 'we' will all be thrown out next week.

[elviajero]

I have been ... and changing the enforcement rules without giving fair warning for people to prepare is unreasonable in any language or country.

Sorry, but I do think it's important that future potential retirees to Thailand understand ... the residence SECURITY that you have living here on annual retirement extensions is limited. Literally -- to ONE year. Sure you may be able to live here for the rest of your life on such extensions, but there are no guarantees offered by the authorities here. Thailand's retirement system is easy compared to most countries offering such options, but the one thing Thailand has never offered retired expats is any path towards increase in residence security status over time. First year, 30th year, on the same TEMPORARY status. You're only as legal as your last extension and if you're heavily invested here ... that is not such a good feeling. If the bigwigs decide to shake some or many of us away ... it is easy to do so.

I agree that only having leave to stay of a year at a time doesn't provide much peace of mind/security, but at the same time they make it very easy for anyone over 50 or married to live here.

It would be great if the gave those of use on marriage/retirement extensions that have been here a long time longer extensions, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. The biggest problem Thailand faces is how to keep numbers down. I don't know what the increase in expats is over the last 5/10 years but I bet it's high, and IMO it'll keep growing unless criteria becomes stricter.

Edited October 13, 2015 by elviajero

[oncearugge]

I have been ... and changing the enforcement rules without giving fair warning for people to prepare is unreasonable in any language or country.

Sorry, but I do think it's important that future potential retirees to Thailand understand ... the residence SECURITY that you have living here on annual retirement extensions is limited. Literally -- to ONE year. Sure you may be able to live here for the rest of your life on such extensions, but there are no guarantees offered by the authorities here. Thailand's retirement system is easy compared to most countries offering such options, but the one thing Thailand has never offered retired expats is any path towards increase in residence security status over time. First year, 30th year, on the same TEMPORARY status. You're only as legal as your last extension and if you're heavily invested here ... that is not such a good feeling. If the bigwigs decide to shake some or many of us away ..

. it is easy to do so.

I agree that only having leave to stay of a year at a time doesn't provide much peace of mind/security, but at the same time they make it very easy for anyone over 50 or married to live here.

It would be great if the gave those of use on marriage/retirement extensions that have been here a long time longer extensions, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. The biggest problem Thailand face is how to keep numbers down. I don't know what the increase in expats is over the last 5/10 years but I bet it's high, and IMO it'll keep growing unless criteria becomes stricter.

I have no access to actual numbers ----only the immigration service would know for sure, but I do know there are far more expats living in my patch now compared to when I first planted roots here.

[Jingthing]

Right and if the numbers become too high for comfort, all it takes is a few tweaks and a certain percentage can be shaken out and quite quickly (in the next year's cycle). That's our status here. No illusions please.

BTW, back to the OP.

Hopefully this will just be a relatively minor inconvenience getting a new O visa (or more like a major inconvenience) but consider if the same thing happened to a person who was grandfathered in on the OLD financial requirements. In that case, such an event could have life changing consequences because starting with a new O visa would require meeting the current financial requirements.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[John1012]

Is there anyone we can appeal to when having been rejected by an IO after having followed THE LETTER OF THE LAW. What seems to be happening here , with combo methods, is that officers are changing the written law, surely this is illegal and can be challenged.

[elviajero]

Is there anyone we can appeal to when having been rejected by an IO after having followed THE LETTER OF THE LAW. What seems to be happening here , with combo methods, is that officers are changing the written law, surely this is illegal and can be challenged.

It is not law and not illegal. The Police Bureau issue orders to the Immigration Bureau for the criteria and conditions for considering an extension. The orders can be changed without any law changes. The law only obliges immigration to consider an application if an extension is deemed necessary.

You can appeal a denied application in writing and they would, if necessary, give an extra 7 (working) day extension while the appeal is processed.

[John1012]

Is there anyone we can appeal to when having been rejected by an IO after having followed THE LETTER OF THE LAW. What seems to be happening here , with combo methods, is that officers are changing the written law, surely this is illegal and can be challenged.

It is not law and not illegal. The Police Bureau issue orders to the Immigration Bureau for the criteria and conditions for considering an extension. The orders can be changed without any law changes. The law only obliges immigration to consider an application if an extension is deemed necessary.

You can appeal a denied application in writing and they would, if necessary, give an extra 7 (working) day extension while the appeal is processed.

Thanks for the explaination.

ORDER OF THE IMMIGRATION BUREAU

No. 327/2557

Subject: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand

2.22 In the case of retirement:

The alien:

(5)

Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totaling no less than

Baht 800,0000 as of the FILING DATE.

Are you aware of update from the Police Bureau to change section 2.22 clause 5?

If not why is it that an IO can ignore the police bureau's criteria and conditions for considering an extension, what is the point of issueing these criteria?

I personally have plenty of time before my application for a retirement is required to ensure that the 90 days criteria is met, but I would like a set of rules that are applicable to all immigration officers so that there are no grey areas and we expats (of whatever nation) can follow the rules.

There are probably many other expats who would like a stable set of rules to follow.

[ubonjoe]

There was a comment earlier about the translation not being correct.

Here is (5) in Thai. From Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557 Thai text

[khunerik]

If it's no seasoning for the combo method. Can you then use like 790 k in bank and 10k income ?

[Jingthing]

If it's no seasoning for the combo method. Can you then use like 790 k in bank and 10k income ?

Technically yes as income ratio to bank is not specified in the law. But we are talking here about an enforcement variation which we all know is not uncommon in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

If it's no seasoning for the combo method. Can you then use like 790 k in bank and 10k income ?

IMO I belioeve that immigration expects that the ratio should be a higher income than the money in the bank.

[oncearugge]

If it's no seasoning for the combo method. Can you then use like 790 k in bank and 10k income ?

IMO I belioeve that immigration expects that the ratio should be a higher income than the money in the bank.

I agree.

IMO this drive toward "seeding" is associated with suspicions of "account stuffing" or other creative means of ensuring a lump sum is in the bank on the day application is made for an extension using the "combo" method.

edit= spelling correction

Edited October 15, 2015 by oncearugge

[IMA_FARANG]

I am afraid so......

As Bib Dylan sang, "You don't have to be Weatherman to feel the way the wind is blowing".

Or to put it another way, try this old 60's Crosby, Stills, and Young line, "Kathy , I said, we are lost, but I knew she was sleeping."

Edited October 15, 2015 by IMA_FARANG

[elviajero]

If it's no seasoning for the combo method. Can you then use like 790 k in bank and 10k income ?

IMO I belioeve that immigration expects that the ratio should be a higher income than the money in the bank.

I agree.

IMO this drive toward "seeding" is associated with suspicions of "account stuffing" or other creative means of ensuring a lump sum is in the bank on the day application is made for an extension using the "combo" method.

I agree too.

The rule as written opens the system up to abuse, and it can be safely assumed it will have been abused.

Edited October 15, 2015 by elviajero

[Jingthing]

I think seasoning rules are Mickey Mouse to begin with. For 800K baht applications too.

If you want to fund your bank account by a loan, so you get the loan for three months then.

I'm not interested in analyzing "reasons" for immigration rules. I'm into knowing what the rules are and how they're enforced. The rules don't change often but the enforcement policies are a moving target.

This is a visa advice forum. If you went for tax advice, most normal people would be interested in paying the least amount of tax and staying legal. The reasons for tax laws and enforcement are for policy wonks and the morality part is for preachers.

Reading the minds of Thai immigration at any level ... why even bother trying?

Ours is to deal with what they DO not what they may be thinking.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[elviajero]

Is there anyone we can appeal to when having been rejected by an IO after having followed THE LETTER OF THE LAW. What seems to be happening here , with combo methods, is that officers are changing the written law, surely this is illegal and can be challenged.

It is not law and not illegal. The Police Bureau issue orders to the Immigration Bureau for the criteria and conditions for considering an extension. The orders can be changed without any law changes. The law only obliges immigration to consider an application if an extension is deemed necessary.

You can appeal a denied application in writing and they would, if necessary, give an extra 7 (working) day extension while the appeal is processed.

Thanks for the explaination.

ORDER OF THE IMMIGRATION BUREAU

No. 327/2557

Subject: Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand

2.22 In the case of retirement:

The alien:

(5)

Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totaling no less than

Baht 800,0000 as of the FILING DATE.

Are you aware of update from the Police Bureau to change section 2.22 clause 5?

If not why is it that an IO can ignore the police bureau's criteria and conditions for considering an extension, what is the point of issueing these criteria?

I personally have plenty of time before my application for a retirement is required to ensure that the 90 days criteria is met, but I would like a set of rules that are applicable to all immigration officers so that there are no grey areas and we expats (of whatever nation) can follow the rules.

There are probably many other expats who would like a stable set of rules to follow.

It is alleged (uncorroborated) that offices were given new orders concerning 2.22 (5) last year that clarified seasoning was required, but as far as I know theses orders, if they exist, haven't been made public.

I agree that it would be nice to have a standard set of rules that don't change, but that wouldn't be practical from an immigration standpoint. And not everything that is asked for now is written. IMO the onus is on us to check with the office we are applying at prior to the application to check whats needed and not assume anything. I'm pretty clued up but I still check with my office every year.

Not all expats follow TV and may not even know about the police orders. As I have pointed out already the information, FAQ's, on the immigration website indicates that seasoning is required. IMO that is the place most people would go to find out information and so technically immigration do inform foreigners of the requirement.

Link.

Question 22.

For reasons to stay of Retirement, the alien must be 50 year of age or older and must have been granted a Non-Immigrant visa, firstly. More over, the said alien must have evidences to verify his/her financial status of not less than 65,000 Baht per month or 800,000 Baht per year. Evidences showing financial support are as follows;

2.1 In case of having money in the bank account (Saving/Fix deposit) of any bank located in Thailand.

- The updated bank passbook on the date of application submission showing money in the account of not less than 800,000 Baht which has been deposited and consecutively held of such amount for 3 months. ( Except the first application for this reason, that such amount should be deposited and held for 60 days)

- Letter from the bank certified the current account in the bank of not less than 800,000 Baht; or

2.2 In case of having any other income from abroad such as pension, social welfare

- Letter from the applicant’s Embassy or consulate in Thailand verifying their pension or other income of the applicant which must not be less than 65,000 Baht per month. Or;

2.3 In case of a combination of having money in the bank account and income from pension, with total amount of not less than 800,000 Baht per year, the required documents are the same as mentioned in 2.1 and 2.2

[ubonjoe]

From

ORDER OF THE IMMIGRATION BUREAU

No. 138/2557

Subject: Supporting documents for Consideration of an Alien’s Application

for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom of Thailand

"2.22 In the case of retirement:

Each permission shall be granted

for no more than one year.

1. Application form

2. Copy of applicant’s passport

3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or

4. Funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook

5. Only in the case of Criterion (6), the applicant must submit documents equivalent to Clauses 1-4 stated above."

No mention of seasoning anywhere.