Saving Face - By Lying?!

[Uthen]

I think its common around here, i encountered it with almost everybody, "friends", co-workers, neighbors and .... in laws. Hey we're in LAND OF SMILE ....

[Donz]

I lie when i went for job interviews. Everyone lies around where I live about things. Especially at work, I work 1 day at my old fulltime job, I used to be the credit controller and I come in to make sure everything is running fine, I see mistakes all over the place and everyone lies about them doing something wrong. It seems the mistakes were the computers fault

[Valjean]

One aspect of face that is often overlooked by westerners is that the person asking a question which requires a lie to avoid embarassment has lost face too and in some situations the person asking the clumsy question loses more face than the person telling the lie in response (lieing does involve loss of face but in a small and mostly insignificant way....depending on the lie and its consequences). Most westerners are used to direct questions because they think that the answer is the most important thing while Thai people often see the quality of the interaction as being more important than the results.

Chownah

Chawnah has this right.

First off I am sure that every culture both accepts not telling the truth on some levels and abhors it on others. It can be a horrible deceitful thing that can ruin countries, companies, relationships, etc. And it is also a social lubricant that makes life livable. I cannot imagine what a hel_l it would be to live face with 100% total brutal honesty at every moment in every conversation. Imagine it. What seems to be difference is the rules around honesty. When we all play by the same rules we’re not offended or surprise – we understand how the game is played.

Face is obviously about a lot more than telling the truth. I won’t go into all the ramification here because amoung other things I’m sure not an expert. But it’s more than an excuse to lie. A lot more.

At work the other day I was getting feedback on someone on my team from the other members. This new member is struggling and I was just looking for coaching ideas and some sense if it was time to cut her loose. I asked for feedback in mail and in person and what I got was mostly positive – one person in a very short and crisp way gave me a negative by answering just “No” to the is she doing OK question. The rest expressed issues but in an overall positive context. One day a younger woman on the team was talking to me and I was asking her about this person – in a very confidential, “I just want to help her develop” manner and she gave me the same generally positive feedback with suggestions for improvement.

We talked around a few other things and then she said something to me (paraphrase) “You know no one wants to say anything bad about someone so they will only tell you good things.”

I asked “so you mean people might have serious issues with someone but won’t really say it?”

She said “something like that.’

“So you might tell me that someone is doing OK but not really mean it?”

And she said with a big smile and looking me right in the eyes “something like that, ka.”

“thanks”

Now I could have become very angry that no one was telling me the truth. But what I realized that I was asking everyone a question that they could not answer honestly and be true to their Thai values. It was me who was putting everyone in an untenable position until one brave young woman took the time to set me straight.

I live in Thailand, I work with almost all Thai’s, my team is all Thai, my friends are almost Thai and my girl friend is Thai. I want to stay in Thailand. I’m trying to learn the Thai way. Everyone in the above scenario knew what was going on but me. No one was fooled and probably most assumed (being naïve about American culture) that I knew they couldn’t give me an “honest” answer and assumed that I would probably be able to read between the lines, or understand the smile or body language or somehow know that such a stupid direct question could not be answered honestly. My lesson is not that Thai’s can’t be honest, or that face is some sign of weakness but that it is I that must learn the Thai way if I am to be happy here and have successful work and personal relationships. I must learn how to ask a question in a way that allows the respondent to give me an honest answer. This answer might come indirectly, might be very circular, might take days – it will be a different process than I know. But if an accurate information is what I want then I just need to understand how to ask the question and understand the answer(s).

I get communications coaching from a farang with many, many years all across Asia. One starting bit of advice was to ask “What” and “How” questions and don’t ask “Why” questions. “Why” has too much baggage and potential to cause a loss of face. “What happened” will get you better information perhaps than “Why did this happen?”. Then if you are patient you’ll understand the Why in good time if it’s important. “How can we work together to make this better?” will get you farther than “Why do things keep going wrong?”. And you know in farangland it’s the same – there are ways to get people working with you and there are ways to get them to shut down and let you sink and suffer. You just understand those norms.

Next time you think people are lying to you – you the outsider in their culture. Think: Maybe did I create this situation? How could I be a better communicator with them? How can I understand this culture and learn to be effective?. It’s not easy but I think it’s a lot more rewarding and a heck of a lot less frustrating than just blaming the culture you’re a visitor in about something you (and I) don’t really fully understand or appreciate.

[terry57]

yes,

thats a very intelligent observation my friend and i think you win the game as far as providing a very valid observation on the thai phycie.

cheers

[Plus]

Yes, there's nothing really new here. "Face" is just a sensitive ego. Offence treshold is relatively low in Thailand, just try to tiptoe around people as you'd do anywhere else.

Thais are also humans, like us, just a little different. You don't need to invent anything to communicate with them, just use what you already know in a slightly different way.

Making even a little effort pays handsomely - Thais are a pleasure to be around, even with those "She's doing just fine" games.

[naomisri]

One aspect of face that is often overlooked by westerners is that the person asking a question which requires a lie to avoid embarassment has lost face too and in some situations the person asking the clumsy question loses more face than the person telling the lie in response (lieing does involve loss of face but in a small and mostly insignificant way....depending on the lie and its consequences). Most westerners are used to direct questions because they think that the answer is the most important thing while Thai people often see the quality of the interaction as being more important than the results.

Chownah

Chawnah has this right.

First off I am sure that every culture both accepts not telling the truth on some levels and abhors it on others. It can be a horrible deceitful thing that can ruin countries, companies, relationships, etc. And it is also a social lubricant that makes life livable. I cannot imagine what a hel_l it would be to live face with 100% total brutal honesty at every moment in every conversation. Imagine it. What seems to be difference is the rules around honesty. When we all play by the same rules we’re not offended or surprise – we understand how the game is played.

Face is obviously about a lot more than telling the truth. I won’t go into all the ramification here because amoung other things I’m sure not an expert. But it’s more than an excuse to lie. A lot more.

At work the other day I was getting feedback on someone on my team from the other members. This new member is struggling and I was just looking for coaching ideas and some sense if it was time to cut her loose. I asked for feedback in mail and in person and what I got was mostly positive – one person in a very short and crisp way gave me a negative by answering just “No” to the is she doing OK question. The rest expressed issues but in an overall positive context. One day a younger woman on the team was talking to me and I was asking her about this person – in a very confidential, “I just want to help her develop” manner and she gave me the same generally positive feedback with suggestions for improvement.

We talked around a few other things and then she said something to me (paraphrase) “You know no one wants to say anything bad about someone so they will only tell you good things.”

I asked “so you mean people might have serious issues with someone but won’t really say it?”

She said “something like that.’

“So you might tell me that someone is doing OK but not really mean it?”

And she said with a big smile and looking me right in the eyes “something like that, ka.”

“thanks”

Now I could have become very angry that no one was telling me the truth. But what I realized that I was asking everyone a question that they could not answer honestly and be true to their Thai values. It was me who was putting everyone in an untenable position until one brave young woman took the time to set me straight.

I live in Thailand, I work with almost all Thai’s, my team is all Thai, my friends are almost Thai and my girl friend is Thai. I want to stay in Thailand. I’m trying to learn the Thai way. Everyone in the above scenario knew what was going on but me. No one was fooled and probably most assumed (being naïve about American culture) that I knew they couldn’t give me an “honest” answer and assumed that I would probably be able to read between the lines, or understand the smile or body language or somehow know that such a stupid direct question could not be answered honestly. My lesson is not that Thai’s can’t be honest, or that face is some sign of weakness but that it is I that must learn the Thai way if I am to be happy here and have successful work and personal relationships. I must learn how to ask a question in a way that allows the respondent to give me an honest answer. This answer might come indirectly, might be very circular, might take days – it will be a different process than I know. But if an accurate information is what I want then I just need to understand how to ask the question and understand the answer(s).

I get communications coaching from a farang with many, many years all across Asia. One starting bit of advice was to ask “What” and “How” questions and don’t ask “Why” questions. “Why” has too much baggage and potential to cause a loss of face. “What happened” will get you better information perhaps than “Why did this happen?”. Then if you are patient you’ll understand the Why in good time if it’s important. “How can we work together to make this better?” will get you farther than “Why do things keep going wrong?”. And you know in farangland it’s the same – there are ways to get people working with you and there are ways to get them to shut down and let you sink and suffer. You just understand those norms.

Next time you think people are lying to you – you the outsider in their culture. Think: Maybe did I create this situation? How could I be a better communicator with them? How can I understand this culture and learn to be effective?. It’s not easy but I think it’s a lot more rewarding and a heck of a lot less frustrating than just blaming the culture you’re a visitor in about something you (and I) don’t really fully understand or appreciate.

That's a really excellent post! The only way I can get my head around a Thai person lying to me is to forget about what exactly they are saying and try to think about their intention. Did they lie to protect my feelings? Did they lie to save their own skin? Did they lie in a way that made the truth evident? etc. It gets up my nose to be on the receiving end of it, but most of the time I can rationalise it.

[raybkk]

Western civilizations place a very high value on truth telling. In the USA at least, one is expected to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God" when testifying in court, or by affidavit. But they lie, and feel guilty.

I think that in general, Thais don't value absolute truth, not in the Western sense. They don't want to hear bad news, even if it's bad truth. Nobody (including farang) wants to lose face. If they can't solve the problem easily within their own power in a short time, the 'truth' is mai bpen rai, beside the point, irrelevant.

Almost everybody tells "little white lies." Most Thais have different ways of measuring 'little' and 'white.'

After three years here, I find that it's easy and shameless to tell huge dark lies.

Maybe thats the answer towards the Thai suicide rates...once face is lost forever you might as well loose face with it.

[endure]

Everyone lies, in all countries and at all levels. "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!!!!" (From a movie. I believe "Code Red").

'A few good men' with Jack Nicholson, Tom Cruise, Demi Moore and others

[udon]

The best lie of all is when you new friend tells you, "I will never lie to you".

Yeah, right.

[kayo]

Saving Face.... There is often a given situation where the thai would not NEED to lie, if (s)he was not confronted with his/her error.

By the confrontation, there is a NEED to save face.

Hence, in many cases, the lie can be avoided, by not confronting the person.

I specify "in many cases", meaning, sometimes something is so obvious, it is our trait to want to stand on our soap box and point it out. maybe it makes us feel superoir or whatever.

But if the situation is obvious anyway, what's the point (except for our need to feel better)?

Let the sleeping dog lie, and (s)he won't need to lie (p.t.pun)

song baht... ch..ching!

One aspect of face that is often overlooked by westerners is that the person asking a question which requires a lie to avoid embarassment has lost face too and in some situations the person asking the clumsy question loses more face than the person telling the lie in response (lieing does involve loss of face but in a small and mostly insignificant way....depending on the lie and its consequences). Most westerners are used to direct questions because they think that the answer is the most important thing while Thai people often see the quality of the interaction as being more important than the results.

Chownah

Now I could have become very angry that no one was telling me the truth. But what I realized that I was asking everyone a question that they could not answer honestly and be true to their Thai values. It was me who was putting everyone in an untenable position until one brave young woman took the time to set me straight.

I must learn how to ask a question in a way that allows the respondent to give me an honest answer. This answer might come indirectly, might be very circular, might take days – it will be a different process than I know.

Sorry for snipping liberaly the above quotes (they can be found on this thread)

I just wanted to highlight the key phrases that pretty much answer the question clearly, if my experiences int his wonderFUL country are anything to go by.

Oh! Edit> BTW From imdb.com (internet movie database)

cast_AFGM.bmp

Edited October 3, 2006 by kayo

[apex2000]

For me this is one of the big "downers" of living in Thailand. One can never know what to believe, particularly with someone you do not know well or you have no way of veryfiying the truth about something. I assume they don't really view it as lying, but I have always wondered how this constant twisting of the truth squares with the tenets of the local religion, which is practiced so devoutly here.

Couldn't agree more. This is a huge problem when living in Thailand. You just do not know who to believe. After being here 15 years, I tend to believe no one. But as I don't normally have to ask any questions, it doesn't matter anyway. When in Thailand, do as the the Thais do. Go with the flow, not against it and you will be OK in the country.

[Baht]

To the OP.

If staying in Thailand, you'd better get used to it.

you'd better get ready for it.

[terry57]

Yes, there's nothing really new here. "Face" is just a sensitive ego. Offence treshold is relatively low in Thailand, just try to tiptoe around people as you'd do anywhere else.

Thais are also humans, like us, just a little different. You don't need to invent anything to communicate with them, just use what you already know in a slightly different way.

Making even a little effort pays handsomely - Thais are a pleasure to be around, even with those "She's doing just fine" games.

good on you plus as we know what the game is dont we. ?

its not rocket science my friend but some people think it is.

cheers

[a2396]

One aspect of face that is often overlooked by westerners is that the person asking a question which requires a lie to avoid embarassment has lost face too and in some situations the person asking the clumsy question loses more face than the person telling the lie in response (lieing does involve loss of face but in a small and mostly insignificant way....depending on the lie and its consequences). Most westerners are used to direct questions because they think that the answer is the most important thing while Thai people often see the quality of the interaction as being more important than the results.

Chownah

Chawnah has this right.

First off I am sure that every culture both accepts not telling the truth on some levels and abhors it on others. It can be a horrible deceitful thing that can ruin countries, companies, relationships, etc. And it is also a social lubricant that makes life livable. I cannot imagine what a hel_l it would be to live face with 100% total brutal honesty at every moment in every conversation. Imagine it. What seems to be difference is the rules around honesty. When we all play by the same rules we’re not offended or surprise – we understand how the game is played.

Face is obviously about a lot more than telling the truth. I won’t go into all the ramification here because amoung other things I’m sure not an expert. But it’s more than an excuse to lie. A lot more.

At work the other day I was getting feedback on someone on my team from the other members. This new member is struggling and I was just looking for coaching ideas and some sense if it was time to cut her loose. I asked for feedback in mail and in person and what I got was mostly positive – one person in a very short and crisp way gave me a negative by answering just “No” to the is she doing OK question. The rest expressed issues but in an overall positive context. One day a younger woman on the team was talking to me and I was asking her about this person – in a very confidential, “I just want to help her develop” manner and she gave me the same generally positive feedback with suggestions for improvement.

We talked around a few other things and then she said something to me (paraphrase) “You know no one wants to say anything bad about someone so they will only tell you good things.”

I asked “so you mean people might have serious issues with someone but won’t really say it?”

She said “something like that.’

“So you might tell me that someone is doing OK but not really mean it?”

And she said with a big smile and looking me right in the eyes “something like that, ka.”

“thanks”

Now I could have become very angry that no one was telling me the truth. But what I realized that I was asking everyone a question that they could not answer honestly and be true to their Thai values. It was me who was putting everyone in an untenable position until one brave young woman took the time to set me straight.

I live in Thailand, I work with almost all Thai’s, my team is all Thai, my friends are almost Thai and my girl friend is Thai. I want to stay in Thailand. I’m trying to learn the Thai way. Everyone in the above scenario knew what was going on but me. No one was fooled and probably most assumed (being naïve about American culture) that I knew they couldn’t give me an “honest” answer and assumed that I would probably be able to read between the lines, or understand the smile or body language or somehow know that such a stupid direct question could not be answered honestly. My lesson is not that Thai’s can’t be honest, or that face is some sign of weakness but that it is I that must learn the Thai way if I am to be happy here and have successful work and personal relationships. I must learn how to ask a question in a way that allows the respondent to give me an honest answer. This answer might come indirectly, might be very circular, might take days – it will be a different process than I know. But if an accurate information is what I want then I just need to understand how to ask the question and understand the answer(s).

I get communications coaching from a farang with many, many years all across Asia. One starting bit of advice was to ask “What” and “How” questions and don’t ask “Why” questions. “Why” has too much baggage and potential to cause a loss of face. “What happened” will get you better information perhaps than “Why did this happen?”. Then if you are patient you’ll understand the Why in good time if it’s important. “How can we work together to make this better?” will get you farther than “Why do things keep going wrong?”. And you know in farangland it’s the same – there are ways to get people working with you and there are ways to get them to shut down and let you sink and suffer. You just understand those norms.

Next time you think people are lying to you – you the outsider in their culture. Think: Maybe did I create this situation? How could I be a better communicator with them? How can I understand this culture and learn to be effective?. It’s not easy but I think it’s a lot more rewarding and a heck of a lot less frustrating than just blaming the culture you’re a visitor in about something you (and I) don’t really fully understand or appreciate.

Of course a certain amount of bending the truth is to be found in every country and under many conditions. It can be helpful in maintaining harmonious working relationships and personal relationships in some circumstances. However, from what I see in Thailand, this (lieing) is a way of life. Not all cultural traits (such as this) are necessarily good for the country and the society in the long run. In my opinion, it is part of a larger "moral vacum" to which the predominate, so called religion provides no moral compass.

[terry57]

I think its a big "down" on living in thailand its just not feel REAL and I am not talking about bar girls or something like that I am talking about people in the everyday life you need to deal with.

loose face,afraid of..,smile like an idiots.. sorry its not works, ask any thai what he think about his country and any other idialogic and meaning of life he will just give u that smile...(well 99% of them..) thats why the country looks like that and will continue to be like that as the people too busy in saving face/gren-jai and other bullshits... who have money they sawadi and I always decline these sawadies... when it comes from this point..I dont need it. this level of humens mentality..black white,rich poor.. who gives a fxx..

have many aspects that it makes thailand suffer and shuffle in life.

I have to say that I am an israeli and its very very different!!! in Israel its even more open then in most of your europe/american country..its open heart,speak out of your feeling and thoughts, hot weather of course helps..hehe ,really dont know what makes thais to be like this..

But I enjoy with my close friends and wify and get their respect for saying ALWAYS what I think what I expect and living life THE REAL WAY!

now somebody have HUMUS??

thats exactly why the israilies have trouble in thailand as they lack tact, can sometimes be rude,

lack patience and speak there mind without considering how the thai might be seeing the situation.

the irail mindset and thai mindset always seem to clash and out of all the tourist's to thailand the israilies have the most trouble.

not ment to offend you but purely an observation over many years experience dealing with both culture's.

cheers

[Griffin]

They lie because they are like children. To lie when the truth would do shows imaturity.

A child will lie when he/she and all around know the truth because they don't want to face up to what they have done. My nephews, with muddy shoes from playing in a brook, blamed my dog for leaving SHOE prints in my car.

They are never made to face up to what they have done or made to make things right. why should they, when all they have to do is make up some silly fib or nonsense promise?

Many parts of Thai culture are a delight to be surrounded by, but the lies drive me nuts. It is impossible to take anything that is said to me.

[game4shame]

I dont understand why was my post deleted on this thread??

[Losangels]

They lie because they are like children. To lie when the truth would do shows imaturity.

A

Yep a lot of imaturity amoung many Thais in high positions. Never ever accept reposibility and admit mistakes.

Perhaps the ways they were raised, growing up to be an adult with a child's mentality

[robitusson]

Yep a lot of imaturity amoung many Thais in high positions. Never ever accept reposibility and admit mistakes.

Perhaps the ways they were raised, growing up to be an adult with a child's mentality

I had an experience with the police and a guy who drove his car into me on my bike. I went to the police station a couple of months after it happened. The driver was there and we met with a cop. I explained what happened and admitted where I felt I had been wrong. The other guy blatantly and openly lied about the whole thing. I began to get irritated with his outright untruths, especially when he asked for 5 thousand Baht for his car damage.

The police man was only concerned with me displaying jai yen and completely disinterested in the fact that the guy was lying through his teeth.

He subsequently dropped the demand for the 5 thousand once it was established that his face was intact and I was being treated like the foreign scum that he saw me as.

It's all about priorities. Truth and treating foreigners like fellow human beings are way lower down the scale than keeping face. Simple as that.

[terry57]

They lie because they are like children. To lie when the truth would do shows imaturity.

A child will lie when he/she and all around know the truth because they don't want to face up to what they have done. My nephews, with muddy shoes from playing in a brook, blamed my dog for leaving SHOE prints in my car.

They are never made to face up to what they have done or made to make things right. why should they, when all they have to do is make up some silly fib or nonsense promise?

Many parts of Thai culture are a delight to be surrounded by, but the lies drive me nuts. It is impossible to take anything that is said to me.

the saving of face drives me insane but your post is to simplistic. see post 34 and you might get a handle on it.

[terry57]

Yep a lot of imaturity amoung many Thais in high positions. Never ever accept reposibility and admit mistakes.

Perhaps the ways they were raised, growing up to be an adult with a child's mentality

I had an experience with the police and a guy who drove his car into me on my bike. I went to the police station a couple of months after it happened. The driver was there and we met with a cop. I explained what happened and admitted where I felt I had been wrong. The other guy blatantly and openly lied about the whole thing. I began to get irritated with his outright untruths, especially when he asked for 5 thousand Baht for his car damage.

The police man was only concerned with me displaying jai yen and completely disinterested in the fact that the guy was lying through his teeth.

He subsequently dropped the demand for the 5 thousand once it was established that his face was intact and I was being treated like the foreign scum that he saw me as.

It's all about priorities. Truth and treating foreigners like fellow human beings are way lower down the scale than keeping face. Simple as that.

its the way its is in the majority of asian countries.

if you have an accident its always your fault. the rational being that if you weren't in there country it would never of happened.

sucks big time mate but its how it is and will never change.

the exact reason that i dont drive a car in asia.

sometimes i'll rent a motor bike but never in the city's.

[kayo]

terry, you smell.

I'm not lying.

[Sing_Sling]

if you have an accident its always your fault. the rational being that if you weren't in there country it would never of happened

Brilliant summation, terry.

[terry57]

TERRY57..... at least you not "save face.." hehe

And to the point u mention..have a truth in it but not personally I am very relax guy..

But Basiclly its not truth.... how many stories on newspaper or thaivisa you read about israel and how many about british???

So your point have no basis.

Same like I will say that the english guys r the most naive and suckers in the world (basis on what I see in thai farang relationship..)

hehe now I got you!!

cricky's mate,

im a bleeding aussie, NOT a pommy, yanky, israili or a bloody mongolian OK.

yes, i have met some very nice israil'is so it was a waste of time even going there was'nt it.

look, you have got me.

im going to bend over so you can kick my arse as many times you want, but you've only got 10 seconds to do it.

are you ready ?

sorry mate,

times up, im out of here and off to get a fallafal.

cheers friend

[terry57]

if you have an accident its always your fault. the rational being that if you weren't in there country it would never of happened

Brilliant summation, terry.

thanks henry,

im full of them,

but keep that between me and you and dont let all these other punters in on our game.

cheers mate

look henry,

when we get on the turps next month i want you to come bolting down rambuttri st riding that frigging horse flat freaking strap ok.

could be a melbourne cup winner that hack.

[terry57]

terry, you smell.

I'm not lying.

kayo.

your ugly,

i can get rid of my smell but your uglyness is forever.

im not lying either.

[OneeyedJohn]

terry, you smell.

I'm not lying.

kayo.

your ugly,

i can get rid of my smell but your uglyness is forever.

im not lying either.

Nice slant on a famous quote but....

why dont you have a nice lay down and get ready the the next FIRE.

[terry57]

terry, you smell.

I'm not lying.

kayo.

your ugly,

i can get rid of my smell but your uglyness is forever.

im not lying either.

Nice slant on a famous quote but....

why dont you have a nice lay down and get ready the the next FIRE.

hey your using my lines old cock,

im the one who tells people to have a "nice lay down" so get your own will you.

but its not a bad idea as im on duty tomorrow so i'll take that as a nice bit of advise.

drive carefully will you as i dont want to have to cut you out of a car wreck.

i might be too tired to do it.

[Douggie Style]

I do not think it is immaturity or any personal failing of the Thais, although it may be tempting to see it that way after getting screwed once too often.

Someone explained it to me as a high trust/low trust society thing, although the jury is still out, heres how the theory goes.

In high trust (western) societies we can generally trust the system and who we deal with, the system encourages telling the truth. This is reinforced at all levels from school, peer pressure on to the legal system.

In low trust systems, you cannot trust the system and will be punished more times than not for doing so. For example, in many mid east countries, the clan system prevails, business is kept within the clan, you can only trust the clan, that’s the system.

Ok, as Terry says above its not rocket science.

If you are in a low trust society and are a high trust individual operating in a high trust way you will suffer.

Once you accept that is a reality, you just need to get your defenses up. I am sure there are plenty of tricks in dealing with the Thais to minimise the downside (next topic ??).

[Thaipwriter]

Same like I will say that the english guys r the most naive and suckers in the world (basis on what I see in thai farang relationship..)

Your lying