'New' rice scheme reveals Thai govt's dearth of ideas

[fred Kubasa]

" DEARTH " misspelled I think with R in it !

[Solomon]

It's not the same idea at all.

It's not a great idea or a new one, it probably won't do much to stimulate growth, but it's still not as catastrophically stupid as PT's one.

cognitive dissonance

[Bluespunk]

It's not the same idea at all.

It's not a great idea or a new one, it probably won't do much to stimulate growth, but it's still not as catastrophically stupid as PT's one.

cognitive dissonance

Me or the govt?

Edited October 24, 2015 by Bluespunk

[longway]

Silly OP, every government has had a subsidy scheme, but Yingluck's was not designed a subsidy, it was supposed to be a cost neutral mortgage scheme that turned out to be designed to be a scam that was so badly run it will end up costing thailand 1 trillion baht with only a minute fraction of thst money reaching thai farmers and an even more miniscule fraction reaching poor thai farmers. This government's subsidy had nothing in common with the scam perpetrated by the Yingluck government.

[2fishin2]

In countries of the world, not all government programs work as designed. There are many examples of both failed programs and successful ones all over the globe. What stands out to the rest of the world and unfortunately not Thailand, is that the countries and people realize this. Their answer, use people power and democracy to vote the people out of office during next elections. Sad to say Thailand isnt a part of this civilized world and the answer as in the dark ages is to "overthrow" governments vs doing what other countries and democracy's do. This all equates to the "mob mentality" of Thais and not following the rule of law we are all so familiar with. It aint rocket science except for Thai citizens and a select few of the TV members who are lacking in the common sense arena. Also, I would like to point out that Thai politicians are the most lacking in common sense. And the military, they are just doing the bidding of the richest and untouchables. Look at Thai soap operas from the draconian ages. Its the same hundreds of years in the future, i.e. today.

[halloween]

Here's a newsflash for you; the PTP is no longer in power. The elected government was overthrown by the junta. I know, hard to remember but do try.

OK, so why don't you tell us what is wrong with a relatively cheap scheme to make payments directly to small-scale farmers, rather than trying to change the subject to the alleged illegality of the government and their amnesty?

[MZurf]

Here's a newsflash for you; the PTP is no longer in power. The elected government was overthrown by the junta. I know, hard to remember but do try.

OK, so why don't you tell us what is wrong with a relatively cheap scheme to make payments directly to small-scale farmers, rather than trying to change the subject to the alleged illegality of the government and their amnesty?

Never said there was anything wrong with the scheme. There might be, but I don't have all the details. What I do know is that the junta is tying itself into knots trying to implement populist policies (which allegedly was one of the reasons they overthrew the elected government) without actually coming out and say so.

Pathetic.

[LannaGuy]

People seem to miss that the big problem with the PTP rice scheme was that 500 billion of a 600 billion budget never made it to the farmers.

Subsidy is one issue. Nobody is denying the poorest need helping. Massive corruption is another.

and, pray tell, just "who" are these people that stole 500 million? names? links? evidence? arrests??? or are you just swallowing the Junta BS as usual without any thought process beyond 'Junta say's it's true so it must be'

[jayboy]

Like I've said in the past, the government will suffer less loss by simply handing out cash than try to buy rice at 40% above market price. You have to make the farmers happy to show that you care, unfortunately educating them is not an option and does not work, telling them to change jobs does not work. Giving out cash makes them happy while minimizing the hole in Thailands pocket.

There is less corruption in this scheme, no warehouse refusing to pay farmers full price, no farmers trying to sells substandard rice, no one trying to bring in rice from across the border to game the rice scheme. Subsidies and policies like this are a must in every country to help the low income farmers. So while its the same type of scheme, its not even close to what Thaksin and Yingluck's level, the damage and loss they cause the country.

I accept much of this is correct though it cannot be denied the objective is much the same as that of Thaksin's scheme.It is also populist in nature and however the proposal is sold the undeniable truth is that if this scheme had been promoted by the last government the "good " people would have been spitting with rage and indignation.

The patronising tone of your post suggests you fail to comprehend how farmers are motivated.

Looks to me to be much the same as when Abhisit copied Thaksin's populist policies when he hoped to con The North and North East into supporting the Dems.That went well didn't it.

[phoenixdoglover]

People seem to miss that the big problem with the PTP rice scheme was that 500 billion of a 600 billion budget never made it to the farmers.

Subsidy is one issue. Nobody is denying the poorest need helping. Massive corruption is another.

Your assertion, as usual, is unsubstantiated.

[phoenixdoglover]

So, the Junta are cheapskate populists.

[jayboy]

People seem to miss that the big problem with the PTP rice scheme was that 500 billion of a 600 billion budget never made it to the farmers.

Subsidy is one issue. Nobody is denying the poorest need helping. Massive corruption is another.

Your assertion, as usual, is unsubstantiated.

Behind the unbelievable rhetoric of wishing to help the poor is the nagging concern of the reactionary right that even after rigging the constitution it is going to be impossible to win a fairly conducted election without the support of the North and North East representing about 40 % of the population

Hence we can expect a surge of populist policies designed to attract support from these provinces.One interesting aspect is that the poor are not so poor as even 15 years ago.There have been great social changes.

These people would not even bother about courting the N/NE if there hadn't been a politicisation of ordinary people.We know who is responsible for that and I am fairly sure where loyalties lie.

The rhetoric about helping the poor from the current military regime would be more convincing if they weren't simultaneously flogging a sufficiency policy which for all its merits has a subtext requiring the lower orders to know their place.

[Baerboxer]

It's not the same idea at all.

It's not a great idea or a new one, it probably won't do much to stimulate growth, but it's still not as catastrophically stupid as PT's one.

No, no. Not the same idea at all, because the junta don't do populist policies, only policies for the population, popular population policies, non-populist populist policies...errr

How pathetically desperate.

It's a real subsidy. Not a pretend scam designed to create a nice big slush fund and relying on the idea the Shins could even control a world commodity market. Arrogant <deleted>.

Bringing Somkind in was the cue for expected comparisons. But why would career military officers know about running a country's economy? Thaksin couldn't sort out the economy but he sure could manage the family finances.

[Baerboxer]

Like I've said in the past, the government will suffer less loss by simply handing out cash than try to buy rice at 40% above market price. You have to make the farmers happy to show that you care, unfortunately educating them is not an option and does not work, telling them to change jobs does not work. Giving out cash makes them happy while minimizing the hole in Thailands pocket.

There is less corruption in this scheme, no warehouse refusing to pay farmers full price, no farmers trying to sells substandard rice, no one trying to bring in rice from across the border to game the rice scheme. Subsidies and policies like this are a must in every country to help the low income farmers. So while its the same type of scheme, its not even close to what Thaksin and Yingluck's level, the damage and loss they cause the country.

I accept much of this is correct though it cannot be denied the objective is much the same as that of Thaksin's scheme.It is also populist in nature and however the proposal is sold the undeniable truth is that if this scheme had been promoted by the last government the "good " people would have been spitting with rage and indignation.

The patronising tone of your post suggests you fail to comprehend how farmers are motivated.

Looks to me to be much the same as when Abhisit copied Thaksin's populist policies when he hoped to con The North and North East into supporting the Dems.That went well didn't it.

I doubt you're right. The objective, the main objective of Thaksin;s scheme was not to benefit the poor. That was the stated objective, to attract attention from the real objective of siphoning off funds for a slush fund to buy favors and pay off cronies.

Thaksin would make a good theatrical magician. The art of distraction is one of his skills.

[MZurf]

It's not the same idea at all.

It's not a great idea or a new one, it probably won't do much to stimulate growth, but it's still not as catastrophically stupid as PT's one.

No, no. Not the same idea at all, because the junta don't do populist policies, only policies for the population, popular population policies, non-populist populist policies...errr

How pathetically desperate.

It's a real subsidy. Not a pretend scam designed to create a nice big slush fund and relying on the idea the Shins could even control a world commodity market. Arrogant <deleted>.

Bringing Somkind in was the cue for expected comparisons. But why would career military officers know about running a country's economy? Thaksin couldn't sort out the economy but he sure could manage the family finances.

"How pathetically desperate."

Yes they are, and getting more and more desperate by the day.

"It's a real subsidy. "

How do you know - it hasn't even been implemented yet???

"But why would career military officers know about running a country's economy?"

No reason. It's plain to see they know nothing about running a country nor it's economy.

[AGareth2]

In countries of the world, not all government programs work as designed. There are many examples of both failed programs and successful ones all over the globe. What stands out to the rest of the world and unfortunately not Thailand, is that the countries and people realize this. Their answer, use people power and democracy to vote the people out of office during next elections. Sad to say Thailand isnt a part of this civilized world and the answer as in the dark ages is to "overthrow" governments vs doing what other countries and democracy's do. This all equates to the "mob mentality" of Thais and not following the rule of law we are all so familiar with. It aint rocket science except for Thai citizens and a select few of the TV members who are lacking in the common sense arena. Also, I would like to point out that Thai politicians are the most lacking in common sense. And the military, they are just doing the bidding of the richest and untouchables. Look at Thai soap operas from the draconian ages. Its the same hundreds of years in the future, i.e. today.

the people weren't given the chance to vote them out of office

[jayboy]

Like I've said in the past, the government will suffer less loss by simply handing out cash than try to buy rice at 40% above market price. You have to make the farmers happy to show that you care, unfortunately educating them is not an option and does not work, telling them to change jobs does not work. Giving out cash makes them happy while minimizing the hole in Thailands pocket.

There is less corruption in this scheme, no warehouse refusing to pay farmers full price, no farmers trying to sells substandard rice, no one trying to bring in rice from across the border to game the rice scheme. Subsidies and policies like this are a must in every country to help the low income farmers. So while its the same type of scheme, its not even close to what Thaksin and Yingluck's level, the damage and loss they cause the country.

I accept much of this is correct though it cannot be denied the objective is much the same as that of Thaksin's scheme.It is also populist in nature and however the proposal is sold the undeniable truth is that if this scheme had been promoted by the last government the "good " people would have been spitting with rage and indignation.

The patronising tone of your post suggests you fail to comprehend how farmers are motivated.

Looks to me to be much the same as when Abhisit copied Thaksin's populist policies when he hoped to con The North and North East into supporting the Dems.That went

well didn't it.

I doubt you're right. The objective, the main objective of Thaksin;s scheme was not to benefit the poor. That was the stated objective, to attract attention from the real objective of siphoning off funds for a slush fund to buy favors and pay off cronies.

Thaksin would make a good theatrical magician. The art of distraction is one of his skills.

Oh drat I forgot all about the well known Thaksin slush fund as well as the main purpose of the rice price support policy, namely to distract attention from the aforementioned fund.

[MaiChai]

Farmers get subsidies all over the world. The problem is not the subsidy; the problem is the administration and management of it.

[chickenslegs]

I hope the Thai Visa lawyers have OK'd the final paragraph in the linked article.

I won't quote it as I am too pretty for prison life.

[mike324]

Like I've said in the past, the government will suffer less loss by simply handing out cash than try to buy rice at 40% above market price. You have to make the farmers happy to show that you care, unfortunately educating them is not an option and does not work, telling them to change jobs does not work. Giving out cash makes them happy while minimizing the hole in Thailands pocket.

There is less corruption in this scheme, no warehouse refusing to pay farmers full price, no farmers trying to sells substandard rice, no one trying to bring in rice from across the border to game the rice scheme. Subsidies and policies like this are a must in every country to help the low income farmers. So while its the same type of scheme, its not even close to what Thaksin and Yingluck's level, the damage and loss they cause the country.

I accept much of this is correct though it cannot be denied the objective is much the same as that of Thaksin's scheme.It is also populist in nature and however the proposal is sold the undeniable truth is that if this scheme had been promoted by the last government the "good " people would have been spitting with rage and indignation.

The patronising tone of your post suggests you fail to comprehend how farmers are motivated.

Looks to me to be much the same as when Abhisit copied Thaksin's populist policies when he hoped to con The North and North East into supporting the Dems.That went well didn't it.

Nobody denied it was a populist policy to help the poor. The objective is the same, and nobody is hiding that fact. So yes its an undeniable truth that even the previous government has a similar scheme. So suggesting the DEM and Prayuth trying to hide that their policies are not a Populist Scheme, is a wrong assertion to come into the discussion to begin with.

The important part is how sustainable and corruption free they can be. Under Dems, their Rice Scheme was actually very good and fair, pay and subsidize farmers according to movement of market price. It was not the same as Thaksins. What went wrong with the Dems scheme was the same, corruption . But since the subsidies were less compare to the TRT/PTP, the loss inflicted on the country was less. When compared to the PTP, buying rice 40-50% above market price, to add to that corruption, and you can't even sell the rice, its just plain stupid....

What people are arguing and mad about are the loss that is costing the country. Especially when the PTP ran the exact same scheme as TRT, with no changes. The whole Rice Scheme was proven a failure under Thaksin, numerous international agencies and news reports have came out to say its full of corruption and a complete failure and should not be repeated, yet Yingluck continue in the same foot steps. She promise transparency, but in the 2 years she was in office her government refuse to release any sales figures or look into the corruption. So answer why repeat history when it was proven to be a failure full of corruption?

Farmers are motivated by a better life and money, well everyone is. Not sure what you are trying to get to? There are lots of ways to help farmers, its been outline before, more efficient farming methods (thai farmers yield per rai is very low compare to their neighbors such as Vietnam), planting another type of crop, etc etc. Its easier said than done, but what all the past government has failed to do is educate and hands on help farmers ,they only preach but don't show them how to do it.

If you read old threads, there is a foreigners who married thai wife, took up on farming and had more yield per rai. local neighbors were all very interested in learning his methods. But it takes even more work, in the end the neighbors became lazy and didn't think that extra hard work was worth the extra income. That's the mentality many farmers have, no its not that I'm looking down on them. That is the truth. Its not just farmers, you see this trend across all industries, many people complaining about the efficiency of thai workers. When a society moves forward, efficiency usually increases, but in the case for Thailand, its moving backwards along with the education.

Farming is the same in any country, farmers are always the biggest group of low income earners. Its up to the government to help them, countries such as Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea are perfect examples where successful government campaigns have lifted farmers off the ground. But no matter how you argue it, they will always be on the low income end, that is just reality. The most a government can do is lift them out of poverty.

Edited October 24, 2015 by mike324

[noosard]

Farming is the same in any country, farmers are always the biggest group of low income earners. Its up to the government to help them, countries such as Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea are perfect examples where successful government campaigns have lifted farmers off the ground. But no matter how you argue it, they will always be on the low income end, that is just reality. The most a government can do is lift them out of poverty.

Question Why is it so

When food is the most important thing to sustain life after water and air

Is it because worldwide the price of food is subsidised for the public's consumption

[Srikcir]

It's not the same idea at all.

It's not a great idea or a new one, it probably won't do much to stimulate growth, but it's still not as catastrophically stupid as PT's one.

This is actually a far better idea, it does not require storage or fake G2G deals and imported rice from Cambodia.

If they also cap the payout so only poor farmers git it it will be good otherwise its bad but not as bad as the rice scam.

Since it's a subsidy based solely on amount of land owned, the farmer isn't required to actually grow or deliver any rice. How is that any better?

[phoenixdoglover]

Just preparing for Thailand's role as digital hub of ASEAN and the Virtual Rice Economy. No actual rice growing required.

[jadee]

Sounds to me like the junta is doing exact what the previous government should have done: encourage crop diversification. Doesn't sound like they have a 'dearth' of ideas at all.

[ianf]

It is not exactly the same idea at all.

Thaksin's scheme was to artificially inflate the world price of rice by removing the Thai rice from the world market. He gambled (and lost) on the notion that the world price would increase but it didn't as countries like India and Vietnam filled the gap and managed to stabilize the market. His was a rice pledging scheme and many people were not paid for their rice. Indeed the middlemen made far more money from this than the farmers. At the end of the day, paying the farmers directly is no different from some of the EEC schemes and it is far superior to the original rice scam because the farmers will actually get the money. Not middlemen, politicians and corrupt figures in the shadows.

[smutcakes]

It is not exactly the same idea at all.

Thaksin's scheme was to artificially inflate the world price of rice by removing the Thai rice from the world market. He gambled (and lost) on the notion that the world price would increase but it didn't as countries like India and Vietnam filled the gap and managed to stabilize the market. His was a rice pledging scheme and many people were not paid for their rice. Indeed the middlemen made far more money from this than the farmers. At the end of the day, paying the farmers directly is no different from some of the EEC schemes and it is far superior to the original rice scam because the farmers will actually get the money. Not middlemen, politicians and corrupt figures in the shadows.

I am sure you would of been so magnanimous had TS paid them directly.........

[rubl]

It's not the same idea at all.

It's not a great idea or a new one, it probably won't do much to stimulate growth, but it's still not as catastrophically stupid as PT's one.

No, no. Not the same idea at all, because the junta don't do populist policies, only policies for the population, popular population policies, non-populist populist policies...errr

Well for one the previous government made it a 'self-financing' scam whereas the current government only puts it as a reservation in the National Budget, as a deficit.

[halloween]

 

Here's a newsflash for you; the PTP is no longer in power. The elected government was overthrown by the junta. I know, hard to remember but do try.

OK, so why don't you tell us what is wrong with a relatively cheap scheme to make payments directly to small-scale farmers, rather than trying to change the subject to the alleged illegality of the government and their amnesty?

Never said there was anything wrong with the scheme. There might be, but I don't have all the details. What I do know is that the junta is tying itself into knots trying to implement populist policies (which allegedly was one of the reasons they overthrew the elected government) without actually coming out and say so.

Pathetic.

 

Pathetic is someone who's first response is to attack the legality of the government because they don't have all the details of a policy that looks to be a far better policy than that of the criminals they claim not to support. Really, pathetic.

[GinBoy2]

There is a fundamental problem that most of you forget, or choose to ignore, in your zeal to blame your respective bogeyman.

Farming is a question of scale, no farmer anywhere in the world can survive without scale. By the governments own figure the average farm is only 4.07 ha. For the junta haters or lovers you can bleat on about the merits of intervention, subsidy or the biggest red herring of all, crop diversification. With 4 ha of land thats a total non starter.

So until one of the crack governments with which this country seems 'blessed' with, can address that until you educate your people to giving them employment choices to get off the land, and hence allow land consolidation to happen nothing will change. The current deflection of this reality is that now we are supposed to believe that changing nothing, is all part of the 'sustainable economy'.

You will all be bickering about this for the next few cycles of elected/junta administrations until we're all long gone, since you never want to address fundamentals, just the juicy screaming matches of Thaksin this, Prayuth that, and of course all of the equally useless leaders yet to come

The trouble with that of of course that it's hard and takes work to actually educate and develop a populous. It can be done of course, South Korea and Taiwan being shining examples. But the Thai elite (and yes zealots they are all the same tribe, Red, Yellow & Green) are lazy and self serving, none of them really having any interest in development of the people. So the endless game of price support, pledging, subsidy, you can wrap it up and argue about the various merits Ad Naseum, but it's all the same garbage wrapped up in different colors of pretty paper.

Here's the link to the almost laughable government sustainable agriculture presentation from which the slide originates:

http://www.slideshare.net/SIANIAgri/nesdb-ms-ladawan

[MZurf]

 

Here's a newsflash for you; the PTP is no longer in power. The elected government was overthrown by the junta. I know, hard to remember but do try.

OK, so why don't you tell us what is wrong with a relatively cheap scheme to make payments directly to small-scale farmers, rather than trying to change the subject to the alleged illegality of the government and their amnesty?

Never said there was anything wrong with the scheme. There might be, but I don't have all the details. What I do know is that the junta is tying itself into knots trying to implement populist policies (which allegedly was one of the reasons they overthrew the elected government) without actually coming out and say so.

Pathetic.

 

Pathetic is someone who's first response is to attack the legality of the government because they don't have all the details of a policy that looks to be a far better policy than that of the criminals they claim not to support. Really, pathetic.

Let me make a wild guess; you never made it on to the debating team back in school, did you?