US Navy sails near reefs claimed by China

[webfact]

US Navy sails near reefs claimed by China
By ROBERT BURNS

WASHINGTON (AP) — A U.S. Navy ship sailed near an artificial island built by China in the South China Sea in a long-anticipated challenge to what the Obama administration considers Beijing's "excessive claim" of sovereignty in those waters, a U.S. defense official said Monday.

The official said the White House approved the movement by the USS Lassen, a guided missile destroyer, inside what China claims as a 12-mile territorial limit around Subi Reef in the Spratly Islands archipelago, a disputed group of hundreds of reefs, islets, atolls and islands in the South China Sea.

The patrol was completed without incident, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the Lassen's movements.

A Pentagon spokesman, Navy Cmdr. Bill Urban, declined to comment.

The Obama administration has long said it will exercise a right to freedom of navigation in any international waters, including in the South China Sea. The point of sailing a U.S. ship within 12 nautical miles of any of the artificial islands created by China would be to demonstrate the U.S. assertion that they are not sovereign Chinese territory.

"Make no mistake, the United States will fly, sail and operate wherever international law allows, as we do around the world, and the South China Sea is not and will not be an exception," Defense Secretary Ash Carter said on Oct. 13.

"We'll do that at times and places of our choosing," Carter said. "And there's no exception to that, whether it's the Arctic or the sea lanes that fuel international commerce widely around the world, or the South China Sea."

Asked for comment about the U.S. move, a spokesman at the Chinese embassy in Washington, Zhu Haiquan, said China respects freedom of navigation in the South China Sea.

"Freedom of navigation and overflight should not be used as excuse to flex muscle and undermine other countries' sovereignty and security," he said. "We urge the United States to refrain from saying or doing anything provocative and act responsibly in maintaining regional peace and stability."

State Department spokesman John Kirby said Monday the U.S. would not be required to consult with other nations if it decided to conduct freedom of navigation operations in international waters anywhere on the globe.

"The whole point of freedom of navigation in international waters is that it's international waters. You don't need to consult with anybody. That's the idea," Kirby said. He referred questions about specific Navy ship movements to the Pentagon.

China's assertive behavior in the South China Sea has become an increasingly sore point in relations with the United States, even as President Barack Obama and China's President Xi Jinping have sought to deepen cooperation in other areas, such as climate change.

China claims virtually all of the South China Sea. The Philippines and other countries that have territorial disputes with China in the busy sea have been particularly concerned by China's recent land reclamation projects that have turned a number of previously submerged reefs in the Spratly archipelago into artificial islands with runways and wharves.

Adm. Harry Harris Jr., commander of the U.S. Pacific Command, has said the South China Sea is no more China's than the Gulf of Mexico is Mexico's.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-10-27

[Synoptic 12]

China is not sovereign in or above the waters. China is delving into deep waters which they know not.

Edited October 27, 2015 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[jpb1963]

currently working in the south china sea on a drill ship off the coast of Vietnam in Vietnamese territorial waters and we have a chinese coast gaurd vessel shadowing us 24/7, 2 days ago the ship was buzzed by a chinese recon plane 5 times with fly by's plane at the same height as the bridge and probably within 400m

chinese are gonna cause trouble here in day

[Synoptic 12]

The U.S P3'S are also conducting surveillance. The Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruiser is ready and capable for action.

Edited October 27, 2015 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[Publicus]

CCP Boyz in Beijing have come to realise their design to assert sole and absolute control of and over the international sea lanes of the SCS, through which $5 Trillion of goods transit annually, has come smack square up against the United States Navy.

The Boyz can shift all the sand they like and tear up all the reefs they don't like or care about, but the fact remains the USN has established a regular schedule forward of passing within and inside the CCP claimed 12 mile national territorial limit of these built up reefs. The US Navy's actions today of entering within the 12 mile area thus negate any claims by any nation of sovereignty up to 12 (nautical) miles from an artificial island.

Today's action by the USS Lasson guided missile destroyer was taken in coordination with a USAF P-8A Poseidon surveillance craft supported also by a P-3 USN surveillance craft. The US military aircraft flying over the built up reefs also destroys any claim of a CCP sovereign airspace above the constructed locations.

At issue are that these are man made islands on reefs that are below the surface during high tide, which means under the International Law of the Sea they are not natural islands and therefore have no rights of sovereign national territory.

Almost the entire energy supply of Japan, South Korea and Taiwan pass through the international sea lanes of the SCS that are governed by the ICLOS. China too for that matter. Asean too, which keeps asking for SCS cooperation from Beijing yet all anyone gets from the CCP Boyz is more CCP Chinese artificial islands and more CCP claims of CCP sovereignty.

Reality is there was no CCP sovereignty over the reefs before they became Chinese-made islands and there is no CCP China sovereignty over the artificial islands the Dictators in Beijing are creating there. Not in either international law or in the customs and practices of Naval ships of war plying recognized international waters which is what almost the entire SCS is.

[Synoptic 12]

The U.S. should park a flotilla right over the islands at high tide.

Edited October 27, 2015 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[jpb1963]

that may well be the case however the fact remains that this is what china is laying claim too and one day they probably exercise their claim as they see it.

new asian bullies on the block

[slipperylobster]

About the USS Lassen...on the way to the Spratleys....

My best pal (lived close to him in the Philippines many years), is a retired US Navy Chief. In the late sixties, he worked as a door gunner/crew chief on a Navy Rescue Huey, which was parked on the deck of a ship just off the coast of Vietnam. One late afternoon, a Navy Aviator bailed out over North Vietnam. Don and his crew were off on a rescue mission...to pickup the aviator. Amost out of fuel, the Pilot of the Helo (Lassen) refused to give up the search..and they took on fire. Don recalled the helo..almost out of control....actually hit a tree branch (thats how low they were flying). Rounds were coming in and it became dark. Lassen had a choice...and decided to land the helo in a hot zone. Don made contact with the pilot...and helped him into the chopper....as he layed down suppressive fire. Lassen returned, fuel tank running on fumes only...and the Captain of the Navy ship broke protocol and turned on all deck lights. Mission was a success. Lassen won the Medal of Honor..and the copilot a Navy Cross. Don received a Silver Star.

Lassen died after his service was completed...and Don and the crew were called in to Christen the USS Lassen. Don spent 20 years in the Philippines with me...and ran a bar called "the General's Command Post"..named by me. It is still in operation in Barrio Barretto on Subic Bay Philippines. Lots of momentos in the bar ..from WW II to present.

In the Movie "Car Wash", there is one short scene when the manager is in his office, talking to his crew. On his desk is a photo of Lassen and Don, along with other members of that rescue team. The manager points at the photo and says "wish we had people we could trust...like these guys".

Edited October 27, 2015 by slipperylobster

[squarethecircle]

that may well be the case however the fact remains that this is what china is laying claim too and one day they probably exercise their claim as they see it.

new asian bullies on the block

Well then again what Vietnam will do is a counter-strategy. Counter-insurgency is costly and some strategic strikes by Vietnamese submarines would have China back at the calculating tables figuring out if this is really the best road to take in furtherance of their imagined past glory. Cf: 1979 war on their northern border.

Not sure what's going on with Russia in eastern Ukraine but there are clear parallels in terms of what countermeasures could be taken.

[Synoptic 12]

China has recently sent some of their vessels to the Aleutian Islands off the coast of Alaska, being joined by Russian ships. China cannot dictate as to what is relevant for them but does not apply to others. If they wish to challenge the U.S. fleet, they're welcome.

Edited October 27, 2015 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[Synoptic 12]

that may well be the case however the fact remains that this is what china is laying claim too and one day they probably exercise their claim as they see it.

new asian bullies on the block

China does not own the waters nor can lay claim to anything but their own country. China should maintain their air which may be causing the mainland delusional thoughts, delving upon the sublime, while entertaining illusions of grandeur. China has never been a seafaring people, while their vessels are constructed of re-used parts.

[Synoptic 12]

About the USS Lassen...on the way to the Spratleys....

My best pal (lived close to him in the Philippines many years), is a retired US Navy Chief. In the late sixties, he worked as a door gunner/crew chief on a Navy Rescue Huey, which was parked on the deck of a ship just off the coast of Vietnam. One late afternoon, a Navy Aviator bailed out over North Vietnam. Don and his crew were off on a rescue mission...to pickup the aviator. Amost out of fuel, the Pilot of the Helo (Lassen) refused to give up the search..and they took on fire. Don recalled the helo..almost out of control....actually hit a tree branch (thats how low they were flying). Rounds were coming in and it became dark. Lassen had a choice...and decided to land the helo in a hot zone. Don made contact with the pilot...and helped him into the chopper....as he layed down suppressive fire. Lassen returned, fuel tank running on fumes only...and the Captain of the Navy ship broke protocol and turned on all deck lights. Mission was a success. Lassen won the Medal of Honor..and the copilot a Navy Cross. Don received a Silver Star.

Lassen died after his service was completed...and Don and the crew were called in to Christen the USS Lassen. Don spent 20 years in the Philippines with me...and ran a bar called "the General's Command Post"..named by me. It is still in operation in Barrio Barretto on Subic Bay Philippines. Lots of momentos in the bar ..from WW II to present.

In the Movie "Car Wash", there is one short scene when the manager is in his office, talking to his crew. On his desk is a photo of Lassen and Don, along with other members of that rescue team. The manager points at the photo and says "wish we had people we could trust...like these guys".

The U.S.S. Trump nearing the shores of China.

[Publicus]

The U.S P3'S are also conducting surveillance. The Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruiser is ready and capable for action.

CCP Boyz and their PLA Navy and Air Force tried unsuccessfully last spring to bring down even one of the USAF Global Hawk recon drones flying over the sites. Then the Pentagon famously sent the USAF P-8A Poseidon recon plane with a CNN crew aboard to get everything and anything they wanted on videotape to include the CCP Chinese admiral sitting in his private can. The PLA Navy/Air Force eight times in English ordered the Poseidon to leave only to be laughed at instead, also in English.

The whole of the US 7th Naval Fleet is quite ready on this one as the 7th is historically the US's Pacific Fleet, meaning its biggest and most bangs for the bucks powerful. The supercarrier Ronald Reagan effective this this month became the fleet carrier based in Japan to emphasise the point. The US coming soon will be be basing carriers in Guam and Singapore in addition to its existing base in Japan; and B-2 Stealth bombers will soon have a new home in Australia.

SCS and now is the time and place for it to begin because this involves international rights of passage to include almost all the oil and energy resources of US allies Japan, South Korea and also the US protectorate Taiwan, along with Asean.

In May the newly minted Littoral Combat Ship USS Fort Worth did the cruising around the artificial islands and got stalked and "shadowed" by several PLA Navy ships to include a missile cruiser, the name of which I forget now, but none of which could head it off. There are three more new LCS assigned to the 7th Fleet specifically for the SCS which is perilously shallow in places for deep draft warships and out of the question in places for submarines (littoral = shallow waters).

All the same Pentagon decided this time to send a destroyer as a single ship with air cover given that, while the LCS has a potent offense and is part of a destroyer group, the destroyer has defenses for both itself and the LCS's in its group.

So now that the CCP's claim of a 12 mile national territorial exclusive zone around these artificial islands has been ruptured, destroyed, demolished, let's see.

If Xi Jinping is as in charge of the party's military as he claims to be, the possibility of an incident(s) would be minimal or low key. If however Xi still does not have control over all of his generals, admirals and defense minister (also a general), there will be incidents as in plural.

Edited October 27, 2015 by metisdead

[eggers]

Once again, US sticking it's nose into other countries business!!

Why do they need to have a Navy ship in vicinity of these disputed Spratly islands? Seems just wanting to taunt the Chinese & stir up more trouble, than necessary. UnStately Dept claimed to be "exercising freedom of navigation operations; OK if China sends navy ship to US East coast under same code??

Utter stupidity....Serves no purpose!

As said, time & time again, US should fix up own problems unless assistance sought from troubled countries.

However, doubt much will change if either, Donald "Bull in China Shop" Trump or Hillary"Trust me.. I'm with First man, Bill" Clinton are elected next year!!

[nidieunimaitre]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

[SheungWan]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

Why, has anybody recently seized Samoan, Hawaiian Islands or The Falklands?

[nidieunimaitre]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

Why, has anybody recently seized Samoan, Hawaiian Islands or The Falklands?

Define "recently".

As for the UK islands, that is a different story.

The UK does not want Europe, Europe never wanted the UK.

Maybe China could be persuaded to take them?

[Ulic]

The Chinese have absolutely no legitimate claim over a shoal (Not even an island) in the South

China Sea let alone the nine dash line. The world should pay attention. China plays the long, long

long game. One can only hope a cat 5 typhoon takes these man made structures on the Spratly

shoals out. Just a hope I have.

[Publicus]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

South China Sea is the CCP Boyz' entre. The Boyz claim the northern third of India, almost all of Siberia, Taiwan, the Ryukru Islands, Cleveland Ohio and the dark side of the moon.

China claims territories of 23 countries, but only has borders with 14

China Territory Claims

The total area of China’s claims on other countries exceeds the size of modern China itself, but Beijing refuses to budge on its claims.

Many are based on unsubstantiated (outside China) and unprecedented “historical precedents” dating back centuries.

And while China only has land borders with 14 countries, it is claiming territory from at least 23 individual nations.

The following is a list of China’s current claims against other countries, all of which it has made painfully clear it is willing to go to war over:

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/12/01/china-claims-territories-of-23-countries-but-only-has-borders-with-14/

Let's not forget HRClinton is the most hated and feared American in the CCP China so the Boyz have hollered at HRC about Chinese territorial rights on Hawaii, and have claimed that Chinese sailors had settled peacefully in Australia centuries before Europeans "discovered" it. And let’s not forget the supposed 1418 map that “proves” China discovered the Americas (and the entire world) long before Columbus.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Publicus

[slipperylobster]

Once again, US sticking it's nose into other countries business!!

Why do they need to have a Navy ship in vicinity of these disputed Spratly islands? Seems just wanting to taunt the Chinese & stir up more trouble, than necessary. UnStately Dept claimed to be "exercising freedom of navigation operations; OK if China sends navy ship to US East coast under same code??

Utter stupidity....Serves no purpose!

As said, time & time again, US should fix up own problems unless assistance sought from troubled countries.

However, doubt much will change if either, Donald "Bull in China Shop" Trump or Hillary"Trust me.. I'm with First man, Bill" Clinton are elected next year!!

You seem to forget our obligations with the Philippines..

Several times we have been asked for assistance...

You believe the Philippines has more than 2 ships with gas in them?

[Boon Mee]

Once again, US sticking it's nose into other countries business!!

Why do they need to have a Navy ship in vicinity of these disputed Spratly islands? Seems just wanting to taunt the Chinese & stir up more trouble, than necessary. UnStately Dept claimed to be "exercising freedom of navigation operations; OK if China sends navy ship to US East coast under same code??

Utter stupidity....Serves no purpose!

Got that right.

Echos of when Bubba Clinton fired Thomahawks into empty camel tents to take the focus off his domestic troubles.

[nidieunimaitre]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

South China Sea is the CCP Boyz' entre. The Boyz claim the northern third of India, almost all of Siberia, Taiwan, the Ryukru Islands, Cleveland Ohio and the dark side of the moon.

China claims territories of 23 countries, but only has borders with 14

China Territory Claims

The total area of China’s claims on other countries exceeds the size of modern China itself, but Beijing refuses to budge on its claims.

Many are based on unsubstantiated (outside China) and unprecedented “historical precedents” dating back centuries.

And while China only has land borders with 14 countries, it is claiming territory from at least 23 individual nations.

The following is a list of China’s current claims against other countries, all of which it has made painfully clear it is willing to go to war over:

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/12/01/china-claims-territories-of-23-countries-but-only-has-borders-with-14/

Sometimes I think that you do not like the Chinese.

I wonder why.

After all, they are the most capitalist country in the world.

Their economy is extreme capitalist, their foreign policy is extreme capitalist.

They take what they want / can, that's the free capitalist spirit.

Are you a commie?

Post as you please, but stay away from under my bed.

[BuaBS]

Let's hope they start shooting at each other soon.

[Vandadavid]

Yeah China are a very devious bunch

[SheungWan]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

Why, has anybody recently seized Samoan, Hawaiian Islands or The Falklands?

Define "recently".

As for the UK islands, that is a different story.

The UK does not want Europe, Europe never wanted the UK.

Maybe China could be persuaded to take them?

It seems to be a trend for some contributors to throw in their pet peeve or peeves whatever the subject line. Pedantry for some reason appears to be a common calling card as well. Meanwhile back to the Spratleys.....

[nidieunimaitre]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

Why, has anybody recently seized Samoan, Hawaiian Islands or The Falklands?

Define "recently".

As for the UK islands, that is a different story.

The UK does not want Europe, Europe never wanted the UK.

Maybe China could be persuaded to take them?

It seems to be a trend for some contributors to throw in their pet peeve or peeves whatever the subject line. Pedantry for some reason appears to be a common calling card as well. Meanwhile back to the Spratleys.....

You too mut selious.

Now define "recently".

World politics, and Power Abuse in general, work like this. Nothing new.

The little people, such as me, have only humour to counter The Powers.

Some very little people claim that they have the freedom to choose their oppressors.

[Publicus]

Next the Chinese navy might send ships to Samoa or Hawaii or Malvinas or UK - other possibly disputed islands.

South China Sea is the CCP Boyz' entre. The Boyz claim the northern third of India, almost all of Siberia, Taiwan, the Ryukru Islands, Cleveland Ohio and the dark side of the moon.

China claims territories of 23 countries, but only has borders with 14

China Territory Claims

The total area of China’s claims on other countries exceeds the size of modern China itself, but Beijing refuses to budge on its claims.

Many are based on unsubstantiated (outside China) and unprecedented “historical precedents” dating back centuries.

And while China only has land borders with 14 countries, it is claiming territory from at least 23 individual nations.

The following is a list of China’s current claims against other countries, all of which it has made painfully clear it is willing to go to war over:

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/12/01/china-claims-territories-of-23-countries-but-only-has-borders-with-14/

Sometimes I think that you do not like the Chinese.

I wonder why.

After all, they are the most capitalist country in the world.

Their economy is extreme capitalist, their foreign policy is extreme capitalist.

They take what they want / can, that's the free capitalist spirit.

Are you a commie?

Post as you please, but stay away from under my bed.

Shouldn't allow too much time on who might like or dislike the Chinese cause it almost surely will get even more confusing to you. Just think instead of getting me to answer5000 years of uninterrupted dictatorship to help clarify the integral difference. And kindly do me the service of not thinking of me as under your bed or as being anywhere near it.

CCP capitalism is of the ancient sort, the kind that says to the much smaller nations of Asean for instance that 'we are Big China and this body of water is from this moment our own personal and national lake'. And to the devil with the ILOS. Then there's the censorship, the mind control, so the party's over before it had begun.. .

Sure, the CCP aren't the first or only liars in human history. The're simply the most compulsive about it.

[nidieunimaitre]

I am sure you believe all the things that you say, Publicus.

We can agree on that.

[eggers]

Once again, US sticking it's nose into other countries business!!

Why do they need to have a Navy ship in vicinity of these disputed Spratly islands? Seems just wanting to taunt the Chinese & stir up more trouble, than necessary. UnStately Dept claimed to be "exercising freedom of navigation operations; OK if China sends navy ship to US East coast under same code??

Utter stupidity....Serves no purpose!

As said, time & time again, US should fix up own problems unless assistance sought from troubled countries.

However, doubt much will change if either, Donald "Bull in China Shop" Trump or Hillary"Trust me.. I'm with First man, Bill" Clinton are elected next year!!

You seem to forget our obligations with the Philippines..

Several times we have been asked for assistance...

You believe the Philippines has more than 2 ships with gas in them?

No haven't forgotten, but bear in mind, the islands are claimed by not only Phillipines, but also Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan & Vietnam.To my understanding, none of those countries have sought US intervention, so why is US there??? What does Phillipines Naval power have to do with issue? The other claimants have naval power but not sought to confront Chinese militarily, using diplomatic channels; something, in which, US lack credible skills.

[sgtsabai]

None of the smaller nations with superseding claims in the China Seas have the ability to fight the Chinese Navy. But, make no doubt, the Japanese will give it a hell of a try. The Japanese have been practicing the taking/retaking of islands with the US Marines for a couple of years. Just finished a joint exercise in Australia recently. That does sound a bit strange considering WWII. The Chinese won a sea battle with VN but paid the price when they entered the country. The US is now helping VN with building up of their Navy, as they are in the Philippines. I say put a couple of those may or may not work out LCS ships backed by destroyers and maybe a guided missile cruiser right next to the shore and at the same time but a few F-18's overhead along with the P8. Good time for a F-18 fly by. Think what you want, I see a couple of posters here that think they know me, they don't, there will be shooting in the China Seas and the US better be damn well prepared. The Chinese will continue to push, while lying about there peaceful purpose and wish for peace. While our government was expending our money, our economy, our military, our good will, and not only our lives but the lives of 100's of thousands of Iraq people and others only to increase radical Islam, China has been laughing it's head off at our government's inability to get anything done, much less win a war or "hearts and minds". They are and have been the enemy and the US better damn well recognize it, to the fullest. They will only respect strength and diplomacy. Strength first and they, unlike the American people recognize our weaknesses.