ED visa about to require 5 days/week, 2 hours/day.

[stephen tracy]

So much nonsense. Why would anyone wish to study a dead end language such as Thai. Only reason would be possibly long term plan to work in los with main skill being able to speak thai and English. Even that's rubbish. You might get job in tour company. Or rather not. The folk pretending to wish to learn thai as a second language is rubbish. I'm happy for people to try and have extended (long) stays living in los. Seriously give us all a break. Ed visas were never about an burning love of the thai language. It was always a vehicle for the vast majority. The abuse of rules has sent the grim reaper. Happy days.

The one thing you can always be guaranteed on TV is the proliferation of narrow-minded views of those who presumptuously deem their opinions to be fact. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "dead end language". When I studied Arabic and Persian at university in the 90s many people asked me why I chose to do so. After 9/11 that all changed, and I could now not do my job without Arabic. I have now been studying Thai for 2 years. One year with private teachers and one year at a school and can now communicate articulately on a wide array of subjects and read newspaper headlines and simple media reports without reaching for a dictionary. To the jacksams on this forum [of which there are many] I would point out that I have found Thai very useful in Thailand [unsurprisingly], and have yet to meet a Thai that views the language as dead end or my learning it as a waste of time. I have also made considerably more Thai friends and acquaintances as a result. He also takes the view that with proficient Thai you would be limited to working with a tour company, which again illustrates the narrow-minded perspective. Any language learned to a high level of fluency opens up many doors, as I have found with Arabic. As I said earlier, of course there are abusers, and they have made it difficult for those that aren't abusing the system. jacksam's presumptions are tantamount to non-retirees in LOS accuding all retirees of being little more than sad, embarrassing old men

[stephen tracy]

So much nonsense. Why would anyone wish to study a dead end language such as Thai.

So they can talk to Thai people?

I rest my case. You can learn to half converse with thai by a combination of private tuition and basically living in Thailand and communicating every day. But here is the deal breaker. Of all the fluent so called faring living hear , my tgh can't understand a thing they say. Get real. Except for select few, learning thai here with an ed visa is just a way to remain in los.

If your girlfriend cant understand them then they are not fluent. If you only want to half converse to deal with simple every day transactions, that's fine, but with others, like myself, that is not the case. Once again, the world according to jacksam... oh and his girlfriend

[jacksam]

Give me a break. The VERY few serious thai language scholars would make up exactly what % of ed visa folk. My guess is maybe 5% or less. Don't rattle on about the multi lingual few. This OP was about ED VISAS.

Any idea why the rules are now being enforced? Answer , serial abuse. Conprendo

[stephen tracy]

So much nonsense. Why would anyone wish to study a dead end language such as Thai.

So they can talk to Thai people?

I rest my case. You can learn to half converse with thai by a combination of private tuition and basically living in Thailand and communicating every day. But here is the deal breaker. Of all the fluent so called faring living hear , my tgh can't understand a thing they say. Get real. Except for select few, learning thai here with an ed visa is just a way to remain in los.

There is always the option to study French, Spanish or German - or something useful.

I tried those 3 but for some reason Thais couldn't understand me.... that was until someone suggested I learn Thai, and to my surprise it worked... funny that eh?

[stephen tracy]

Give me a break. The VERY few serious thai language scholars would make up exactly what % of ed visa folk. My guess is maybe 5% or less. Don't rattle on about the multi lingual few. This OP was about ED VISAS.

Any idea why the rules are now being enforced? Answer , serial abuse. Conprendonuff said.

I doubt it's as low as 5%, but yes, it's enough to have prompted "the crackdown". It would be pretty interesting to see just what the ratio of bono fides to abusers is. I do think it's a bit unfair though that people like me are now coming under suspicion of being abusers due to the authorities allowing all the abuse to go on unchecked for so long. You can't really even slam the abusers as they were just doing what they were able to get away with. It's also a bit much with all the accusatory comments directed at myself and others from fellow TV members when all I'm doing is trying to add another language to my bow to a level where I can actually make professional use of it. I will admit that perhaps something like Mandarin would be more useful and lucrative - and I did consider it and even made a start - but mainland China is not a place I really want to base myself for long enough to learn the language [even though Thailand is beginning to look more like it, at least politically], and I've had more than my fill of the Middle East to last me a lifetime.

[stephen tracy]

It's undeniable that people were abusing the Ed-visa but whose fault is that? The authorities' or the abusers'? Why should the people who are bona fide language learners pay the price? Anyone who has studied and/or taught languages at BA level knows that too many hours sitting in a classroom is not an effective way to acquire a language, rather it's an effective way to spout off grammatical rules but remain unable to use the language proficiently. Classes have there place and certainly speed up the learning process as well as provide guidance navigating your way through new grammatical systems and pronunciation, but the real acquisition of a language is done by oneself and having the opportunity to get out and actually use it. It's textbook 1/101

And they have the other 22 hours per weekday and the whole weekend to do so. It's not like they're being chained to a desk from 9 to 5 every day, is it?

There is also getting to and from the school in horrific to take into account, not to mention homework assignments to be completed in time for the lesson the following day, as well as committing to memory all the new vocabulary, turns of phrase and grammatical rules. It all amounts to too much time with heads in books and not enough time for practical usage. When you've spent the best part of your day with your head in a book [either in the classroom or out], motivation levels for just going out and speaking begin to sap because the brain is tired and needs a break. I would argue that anyone who refutes this has either never had to undergo intensive language learning, and doesn't realize would this translates [pardon the pun] into on a practical level, or is simply exceptionally gifted. Of the three languages I've studied since my early 20s , most of the language acquisition came from being able to get out and using it during non-school hours, and believe me, that too is no stroll in the park. It's hard work and can be as much demoralizing as it is rewarding. Over and out.

[eaglesflight]

It's undeniable that people were abusing the Ed-visa but whose fault is that? The authorities' or the abusers'? Why should the people who are bona fide language learners pay the price? Anyone who has studied and/or taught languages at BA level knows that too many hours sitting in a classroom is not an effective way to acquire a language, rather it's an effective way to spout off grammatical rules but remain unable to use the language proficiently. Classes have there place and certainly speed up the learning process as well as provide guidance navigating your way through new grammatical systems and pronunciation, but the real acquisition of a language is done by oneself and having the opportunity to get out and actually use it. It's textbook 1/101

This is absolutely true. I think my Thai language skills actually got worse during the year I studied at a school part time. I wouldn't call myself an abuser though. I looked at the cost of other options for staying here another year and decided that the ED visa route was good value at the time because it was about as expensive as the other options I explored but for the same price, I got Thai lessons thrown in. I studied the hours I paid for and didn't tell any lies at immigration. I declined the assistance of the school's 'visa support assistant' for the 2nd and 3rd extensions because she was superfluous to requirements and I didn't like her. I would have been delighted to have been set written and/or verbal tests in Thai when I made my extensions but was asked virtually nothing in Thai at Immigration.

I agree that people who were paying for lessons and not attending (and the 'schools' involved) were abusing the system but I don't think I was. I met the requirements at the time and if the visa had not been on offer, I would not have applied for it. I wouldn't call myself a 'serious language scholar' as some others seem to be demanding that I should have been though. It was just a fun way to stay here another year - or so it seemed when I first made the arrangements.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

So much nonsense. Why would anyone wish to study a dead end language such as Thai. Only reason would be possibly long term plan to work in los with main skill being able to speak thai and English. Even that's rubbish. You might get job in tour company. Or rather not. The folk pretending to wish to learn thai as a second language is rubbish. I'm happy for people to try and have extended (long) stays living in los. Seriously give us all a break. Ed visas were never about an burning love of the thai language. It was always a vehicle for the vast majority. The abuse of rules has sent the grim reaper. Happy days.

That's the same flawed line of logic as thinking anyone who chooses to retire here is a dirty old man, anyone who marries here is doing so because they can't find a good partner back home, they never had a burning love of the Thai culture, it's just that they can't afford to retire anywhere other than upcountry in a developing nation halfway down the global corruption index, etc. etc.

What flawed thinking?

[anotheruser]

It's undeniable that people were abusing the Ed-visa but whose fault is that? The authorities' or the abusers'? Why should the people who are bona fide language learners pay the price? Anyone who has studied and/or taught languages at BA level knows that too many hours sitting in a classroom is not an effective way to acquire a language, rather it's an effective way to spout off grammatical rules but remain unable to use the language proficiently. Classes have there place and certainly speed up the learning process as well as provide guidance navigating your way through new grammatical systems and pronunciation, but the real acquisition of a language is done by oneself and having the opportunity to get out and actually use it. It's textbook 1/101

This is absolutely true. I think my Thai language skills actually got worse during the year I studied at a school part time. I wouldn't call myself an abuser though. I looked at the cost of other options for staying here another year and decided that the ED visa route was good value at the time because it was about as expensive as the other options I explored but for the same price, I got Thai lessons thrown in. I studied the hours I paid for and didn't tell any lies at immigration. I declined the assistance of the school's 'visa support assistant' for the 2nd and 3rd extensions because she was superfluous to requirements and I didn't like her. I would have been delighted to have been set written and/or verbal tests in Thai when I made my extensions but was asked virtually nothing in Thai at Immigration.

I agree that people who were paying for lessons and not attending (and the 'schools' involved) were abusing the system but I don't think I was. I met the requirements at the time and if the visa had not been on offer, I would not have applied for it. I wouldn't call myself a 'serious language scholar' as some others seem to be demanding that I should have been though. It was just a fun way to stay here another year - or so it seemed when I first made the arrangements.

It doesn't matter what anybodies intentions are when getting an ED visa. If you are going to class as much as required and paid the fees you are not abusing the system. Even if you really hate learning Thai and wish you didn't have to do so to get a visa you aren't abusing the system. Many people go to school for one reason or another and wish they didn't have to.

One student might go to school and his only wish is to talk to bar girls, the next one might only go because he wants to stay a year, neither are abusing the visa system if they go to class and are not working illegally. Motives for getting a visa are not important if you meet eligibility and are following the rules. I went to language school in Japan that was quite expensive compared to Thai language courses. 300,000 Yen every 3 months.

I can say that about half the class wish they didn't have to spend that kind of money and go to school 4 hours a day 5 times a week. So in a way the school was a visa mill but you know what? Paying the tuition and showing up entitles one to the benefit of staying in the country. The governments that give out student visas know that part of the package that makes them attractive is the opportunity to stay in that country. This is a given.

Nobody was doing anything wrong whether they liked going or not. I am sure there are people here on work permits who wish they could play golf all day instead. Does this mean they are abusing their work permits?

Obviously learning is going to be easier if one enjoys doing so but legally it isn't required to like studying to obtain a visa.

[aronp1]

Seems excessive if your Ed visa is to study Muay Thai or cooking.

Why? If your main reason for staying in the country is to be in education, it seems perfectly reasonable to expect you to attend a school every day.

If you're just going to a couple of classes a week, you're not a student, you're a tourist with a hobby.

Most university degree courses have fewer classes per week!

Less than 10 hours a week?

Degrees must have got easier since my day.

I wouldn't be going to that university. I have 7 classes attend 5 days a week and each class is 2 1/2 hrs. Whatever university is less that 10 hrs. a week definitely is not a reputable school and wouldn't be worth graduating from.

[Gatsby69]

@someonelovesyou ...will now be required to attend 5 days/week, 2 hours/day. The policy change announcement comes from the Chiang Mai Educational Service Area and Chiang Mai Immigration Bureau, but I assume this will roll out across other areas too.

4 hours or 8 hours a week, 4 days or 5 days a week ! It doesn't matter for Chonburi schools. I heard that some language schools located at Pattaya Thai and Jomtien have a special deal with Russian students. When they finished their 180 hours thai lessons or the 120 hours english lessons, they can stay at home and enjoy their holiday in thailand until the end of their ED Visa. Schools just call the students when the chonubri police immigration come for checking.

[Ace of Pop]

As I said in another post it's the abusers that cause the prob. Convenient Marry cheats have given genuine folk extra silly dances ,so don't blame Thais all the time

[JackThompson]

Most university degree courses have fewer classes per week!

Less than 10 hours a week?

Degrees must have got easier since my day.

I wouldn't be going to that university. I have 7 classes attend 5 days a week and each class is 2 1/2 hrs. Whatever university is less that 10 hrs. a week definitely is not a reputable school and wouldn't be worth graduating from.

When working on my BS in CompSci, I often watched lectures online from MIT and Stanford, in order to suppliment those from my own school. In those lectures, the professors often said things like, "For those of you watching this lecture wearing your pajamas at home..." - because many students never physically attended classes, other than for Exams, of course. I don't think MIT and Stanford are less than "reputable" schools. Welcome to the 21st Century.

It is the exams, essays, and such that determine how "hard" a school is. Those determine what a student is expected to master in a given time. If the goal is to catch people working illegally, set up a paid tip-line and go to where they work - rural schools, dive and sail-surfing outfits, etc. And be sure the person doing the hiring does prison-time for treason. If the goal is ensuring students are "really learning," institute standardized exams with oversight on their administration, to prevent school-enabled cheating.

Also recall, that "promotion of Thai culture" is a primary reason this option exists. Thais do NOT want their language to be a "dead end." Culture disappears with it's language because a person sees the world differently depending on what language they use to describe it - in their own heads. Encouraging non-Thais to learn the language is a part of preventing this outcome.

[OMGImInPattaya]

So much nonsense. Why would anyone wish to study a dead end language such as Thai. Only reason would be possibly long term plan to work in los with main skill being able to speak thai and English. Even that's rubbish. You might get job in tour company. Or rather not. The folk pretending to wish to learn thai as a second language is rubbish. I'm happy for people to try and have extended (long) stays living in los. Seriously give us all a break. Ed visas were never about an burning love of the thai language. It was always a vehicle for the vast majority. The abuse of rules has sent the grim reaper. Happy days.

The one thing you can always be guaranteed on TV is the proliferation of narrow-minded views of those who presumptuously deem their opinions to be fact. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "dead end language". When I studied Arabic and Persian at university in the 90s many people asked me why I chose to do so. After 9/11 that all changed, and I could now not do my job without Arabic. I have now been studying Thai for 2 years. One year with private teachers and one year at a school and can now communicate articulately on a wide array of subjects and read newspaper headlines and simple media reports without reaching for a dictionary. To the jacksams on this forum [of which there are many] I would point out that I have found Thai very useful in Thailand [unsurprisingly], and have yet to meet a Thai that views the language as dead end or my learning it as a waste of time. I have also made considerably more Thai friends and acquaintances as a result. He also takes the view that with proficient Thai you would be limited to working with a tour company, which again illustrates the narrow-minded perspective. Any language learned to a high level of fluency opens up many doors, as I have found with Arabic. As I said earlier, of course there are abusers, and they have made it difficult for those that aren't abusing the system. jacksam's presumptions are tantamount to non-retirees in LOS accuding all retirees of being little more than sad, embarrassing old men

I think when Thai is called a "dead end" language it's because it's of little use outside Thailand...it's like Finnish or other unimportant country languages in hat nobody outside the home country speaks or writes in it. Of course, it's very useful if one is living in Thailand for business or retirement and I'm sure all the Thai language students in storefront schools throughout Thailand are enriching their Thailand experience immensely by being able to converse with Thais in their native language, reading Thai newspapers, and watching and understanding Thai soaps on TV.

[jacksam]

Are you serious? The vast majority of folk living in los on ed visa are using ed for one end. To remain longer term in los. Good on them. I don't have a problem with that. Mind you there are better options to remain here on extended stay. The VERY FEW people learning thai seriously then fine, but please don't suggest that this somehow supports the survival of the thai language.

[someonelovesyou]

Are you serious? The vast majority of folk living in los on ed visa are using ed for one end. To remain longer term in los. Good on them. I don't have a problem with that. Mind you there are better options to remain here on extended stay. The VERY FEW people learning thai seriously then fine, but please don't suggest that this somehow supports the survival of the thai language.

Still, if serious students like me are considering switching to METV because it provides me with better Thai learning options, then the current ED Visa program isn't serving us very well.

I'm being forced into a program/schedule for 175k/year for one-on-one where I can actually learn something, or paying 85k+/year to attend group classes 10 hours/week where I will learn basically nothing. They used to acknowledge this to some extent and made the hours required for 1-on-1 less, since you were paying more anyway, but they did away with this a year ago.

I can probably just do METV and for 175k cover the visa fees and design my own learning program better than the forced school rates/schedules with approved schools - just by attending adhoc courses as they are of interest, sampling some group courses, and using private tutors that come to my home.

[someonelovesyou]

So much nonsense. Why would anyone wish to study a dead end language such as Thai. Only reason would be possibly long term plan to work in los with main skill being able to speak thai and English. Even that's rubbish. You might get job in tour company. Or rather not. The folk pretending to wish to learn thai as a second language is rubbish. I'm happy for people to try and have extended (long) stays living in los. Seriously give us all a break. Ed visas were never about an burning love of the thai language. It was always a vehicle for the vast majority. The abuse of rules has sent the grim reaper. Happy days.

Mostly to talk with Thai people (i.e. wife) and because they get enjoyment out of learning it (like a hobby).

There are a few people that do it for work too (generally not through the ED Visa program though). Mostly its managers that are working here (restaurants, hotels, multinational companies, etc) and have to communicate with their Thai staff. They aren't learning Thai to try and get a job, they already have a job that being able to speak Thai is somewhere between hugely beneficial and basically required.

Of course, there are also the missionaries that are coming here to preach in Thai. I met one recently that was studying 5+ hours per day and spoke extremely well for someone who had only been learning for 1 year.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

I am forcing my gf and future wife (thank you visa crackdown) to speak English. I am not wasting time learning Thai. Yes it's a useless language just like French which I didn't bother learning while living in Quebec. If a Serb like me learned English, so can she. If I was living in China maybe I'd learn Chinese.

[SoiBiker]

Why would you need to force your wife to do anything?

[JackThompson]

Give me a break. The VERY few serious thai language scholars would make up exactly what % of ed visa folk. My guess is maybe 5% or less. Don't rattle on about the multi lingual few. This OP was about ED VISAS.

Any idea why the rules are now being enforced? Answer , serial abuse. Conprendo

Many ed visa people, have this visa as a last resort, everything else has been stopped.Some havent even got enough money to go home. BTW, HOW MUCH IS A MAN U TOP PLEASE, ORIGINAL OF COURSE HAHAHAHAH

As to whether this is an effective way to preserve the Thai language and culture - that is up to the Thais to decide. Regardless, they explicitly state this as their aim.

A language course, plus the visa-run plus visa-cost, adds up to more than a one-way air ticket to the other side of the world, last I checked. Those you refer to are likely on overstay.

Also, "shacking up" with a local gf costs more, not less - meaning the applicant is putting more baht into the economy than the "single" guy. Anyone here getting their stay subsidized by their Thai gf?

These days/wk change nothing for "abusers," who will just pay "fees" to continue on their way. This negatively affects primarily those NOT abusing the system.

[oncearugge]

I am forcing my gf and future wife (thank you visa crackdown) to speak English. I am not wasting time learning Thai. Yes it's a useless language just like French which I didn't bother learning while living in Quebec. If a Serb like me learned English, so can she. If I was living in China maybe I'd learn Chinese.

French a "useless" language ?

The language is spoken by 220 million French speakers.

How many more speakers of French are required before the language becomes useful ?

http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/francophony-1113/the-status-of-french-in-the-world/

[jacksam]

French is spoken in many countries and Spanish used extensively throughout the world. Thai on the list of most commonly used languages is number 47.

Mental note.....I need an ed visa.

[someonelovesyou]

UPDATE:

My school still hasn't sent out the letter yet, but they are now telling me that they are not going advise students about the 5-day/10-hour part because they believe they can keep the current days (and just report to immigration that 5-days is being done).

So, I'm sure this policy change is going to impact some schools, but as usual there's probably a lot of back-end corruption going on, it might not affect others. In fact, my school actually mentioned that the people at immigration give them suggestions on how best to report everything so that everything looks good. It sounds like they are on the same team.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how widespread this 5-day/10-hour policy gets adopted by schools. Also, the other policies - like having to show your rental contract - are going to be very interesting.... considering there are surely thousands of people here on ED Visas without a property rented in their name. It doesn't sound very well thought out.

[Gatsby69]

UPDATE:

My school still hasn't sent out the letter yet, but they are now telling me that they are not going advise students about the 5-day/10-hour part because they believe they can keep the current days (and just report to immigration that 5-days is being done).

So, I'm sure this policy change is going to impact some schools, but as usual there's probably a lot of back-end corruption going on, it might not affect others. In fact, my school actually mentioned that the people at immigration give them suggestions on how best to report everything so that everything looks good. It sounds like they are on the same team.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how widespread this 5-day/10-hour policy gets adopted by schools. Also, the other policies - like having to show your rental contract - are going to be very interesting.... considering there are surely thousands of people here on ED Visas without a property rented in their name. It doesn't sound very well thought out.

Yes you are right ! Schools and Imigration are on the same team. And as i said before the new 5-day/10-hour policy won't change anything for many schools. For instance, if you are student at Excel Language Centre in Pattaya as soon as you get your first visa extension, you don't need to study anymore. That's why so many Russian beach lovers probably choose this school.

[JackThompson]

I've been watching ED-visas for a few years, though I never applied for one. Each 'crackdown' has been followed by a "but pay X-Baht and be left alone" provision.

As I have stated regarding TVs, the only change to Policy has been increasing the qualifying $$ to continue as before, to "filter" the recipients to those who have more to spend. The only people the authorities "want to leave" are those who cannot pay a bit more for their visas.

[MobileContent]

Seems excessive if your Ed visa is to study Muay Thai or cooking.

Where would you obtain an ed visa for cooking.

Le Cordon Bleu Dusit Culinary School

[JackThompson]

Seems excessive if your Ed visa is to study Muay Thai or cooking.

Where would you obtain an ed visa for cooking.

Le Cordon Bleu Dusit Culinary School

Note: THB 455,500 (Thai Course Fee) - for a 9-month program.

[MobileContent]

Seems excessive if your Ed visa is to study Muay Thai or cooking.

Where would you obtain an ed visa for cooking.

Le Cordon Bleu Dusit Culinary School

Note: THB 455,500 (Thai Course Fee) - for a 9-month program.

Yes and several foreigners are currently in those courses and one was offered a job at a Sheraton Hotel already. Money well invested to have a long-term strategy for employment in Thailand, specially for foreigners in their 20's. With a LCB certificate you can almost start in any 4 or 5 star hotel, specially for anyone that makes both the Thai and French courses (around 750k).