Bloodshed continues in occupied West Bank

[dexterm]

Simple solution is for Palestinians to stop trying to kill Jews. Then Israel would not have anything to retaliate over. Israel is perfectly willing to live in peace if it's neighbours would cease trying to completely destroy their homeland and kill all the Jews. Crying because you started a fight and finished with a bloody nose doesn't wash.

Nobody mentions J K Rowling's lunatic raving on TV so I will. It's just what one would expect from a writer of fantasy fiction.

Israel, inasmuch as it is represented by its current government, is not "perfectly willing to live in peace...etc.". At most, it can be said to be willing to accept "a peace" - the definition of which falls short of what the Palestinians wish for or what is generally considered to be adequate.

Are you privy to official Likud policy on the matter of a peace settlement? I would observe that no Israeli government of any party has ever made an offer acceptable to the Palestinians, even the unilateral withdrawal (by Sharon) met with yet more violence. I put it to you that inter-party squabbling within Israel should perhaps take a back seat whilst getting to grips with the obviously deliberate Palestinian rejectionism.

You are quite right. And it's about time they did make a sensible just peace offer!... such as 100% return of Occupied Territories including land swaps equal in size and quality allowing Israel to keep its large settlement blocks..not 95% not 97%....100%. Compensation for all refugees (I would include Jewish refugees from Arab countries too). Then perhaps leave the thorniest issue of all..Jerusalem.final status...till after 5-10 years of peace and trust building.

Sharon left Gaza because he had to..it was too costly in lives and security, besides being illegal anyway...just like the West Bank now. It was never a peace deal.

Much as I disagree with many of Morch's posts I appreciate that he is closer to events than I and often has very valuable information. I also appreciate that he has stated that the occupation as illegal and is in favor of a 2 state solution. I disagree with him on how that is achievable.

You appear to want to censor him in favor a pure Netanyahu (or worse) narrative. One thing I do admire about Israeli society and world Jewry is its plurality of opinions. I just wish they'd unite behind the right one (IMO) for their own peaceful future.

[Morch]

Shaul, the former soldier and co-founder of Breaking The Silence, a group that collects testimony from army veterans about abuses by troops in the Palestinian territories, said nothing justifies deadly Palestinian attacks, but that public debate in Israel lacks context.

"Anyone who does not understand that the word occupation needs to be at the beginning, middle and end of every sentence (about the current situation) is lying to himself and to the Israeli public," he said.

Its so liberating to read a comment from "Breaking The Silence" for once. If only the TV members who so strongly and openly support the fascist policies of the Likud party would take the time to listen to these people who experienced the atrocities of the Israeli gestapo first hand, their views might change over night (that is if these TV members are really supportive of Israel and not just Islam hating racists, as many of them here are of course). Unfortunately most of the Nethanyahu lovers have their heads so far op their arse that they ignore any news outside the Fox headlines and whipe away the truth with yelling "Leftish-liberal blatant lies"

As far as I am aware, Breaking the Silence does not habitually equate IDF actions with the Nazis. That you do, indicates no real wish to change posters views, but rather enhances the feeling that it simply serves to bash Israel. To the best of my knowledge, several cases of activists advocating similar views led to a parting of ways with Breaking the Silence. The "first hand" nature of the information stems from service with the IDF - worth mentioning that most activists and witnesses did not disobey orders nor did they quit the service. Breaking the Silence does not call for Israelis to avoid or dodge military service, its mission more along the lines of reform. Note that quoted part where it says "nothing justifies deadly Palestinian attacks"?

Without taking away from the important, and often ungrateful, role Breaking the Silence plays - there is no reason to treat all of the information presented as gospel. It is not the case that all of the claims and testimonials were proven and verified. Like any NGO on a mission, they have their own biases and faults.

That the occupation corrupts and erodes morality is a given. It does not mean that each and every IDF soldier and every Israeli (yes, even if they voted for Netanyahu) is a monster. Also, not anyone refusing your views is necessarily a "Netanyahu lover".

How does Breaking the Silence data compare with the total volume of IDF activity? Or, for that matter, with similar reports covering other armed forces?

How many Palestinian organizations cover Palestinian violence with a critical set of mind?

Apart from your usual whitewashing or greywashing without posting any links, Breaking the Silence testimonials certainly give lie to the propaganda boast that the IDF is the most moral army in the world.

And research such as Israeli activist Mairav Zonszein of +972 magazine shows that less than 2% of complaints against IDF and price tag Jewish terrorists result in investigations.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/israel-attacks-151019172000409.html

Incidents like these on the West Bank;

A Palestinain girl shot while her hands were in the air.

https://www.facebook.com/IsraelWC/videos/888831284541027/

If the surrounding heavily armed soldiers/police several feet away really did feel their lives were at risk, wouldn't it make more sense to tazer the woman?

And, the 17-year-old Palestinian schoolgirl in Hebron killed last week who had already passed through 2 checkpoints where sensitive scanners would have picked up metal objects.

She was challenged by a soldier 'Where's your knife?' She yelled back: 'I don't have a knife.'

"Soldiers then fired between her feet and the terrified girl leapt backwards. She raised her hands in the air and repeated, “I do not have a knife.” Then, according to the witness, the soldiers fired about seven or eight bullets at her."

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/schoolgirl-executed-israeli-soldiers

Amnesty International said hers is one of several cases it is investigating in which Palestinians have been unlawfully killed by the IDF when they posed no imminent risk to life.

In that the IDF cannot be trusted to investigate themselves, why don't they use CCTV at checkpoints and/or Israeli soldiers wear body/helmet cams as police do in many countries and soldiers in Afghanistan. Photos after she was shot dead showing a knife were plentiful,.How about footage before she was killed?

It would certainly calm tensions where disputed accounts occur, and we might even get to the truth. Extrajudicial killings are simply fanning the flames of the conflict.

Coming from certain posters, complaints about links are amusing.

As usual, each topic is a new day and a new beginning for some. Apologies for assuming a semblance of ongoing debate. The criticism regarding Breaking the Silence testimonials, with respect to methodology, validity and motivations is nothing new and was discussed in detail on previous topics. A (very) condensed summary can be found here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Silence_%28non-governmental_organization%29#Criticism. With most of the public debate surrounding BtS activities taking place on Israeli media, not sure that there is much detailed information available in English. The latest would be certain donors (Oxfam, ICCO) conditioning support on level of activity (number of testimonials etc.), and a counter-testimonials provided by an a group under the name of My Truth.

I did not claim, at any time, that the IDF is the most moral army in the world. That others do is irrelevant to my current post. That's a low quality straw man argument even compared to the usual fare. Also, there was no washing (white, grey or otherwise) or anything. Rather, it was simply pointed out that treating every word that comes out of BtS as the ultimate truth and as an objective account of events is a misguided notion. It was further pointed out that the number relatively credible testimonials does not compare well with the overall activity of the IDF. Citing specific incidents (from less than unbiased sources) is not much different.

Do you know of many countries which readily allow their armed forces to be regulated, tried and investigated by outsiders?

[Morch]

Since the latest wave began on October 1, at least 62 Palestinians have been shot dead by Israelis in the West Bank and in Gaza. Of those, 35 were assailants armed mainly with knives and in some cases with guns, Israel has said. Many were teenagers.

Eleven Israelis have been killed in stabbings and shootings.

The kill ratio of 5*63 Palestinian deaths as opposed to 0*177 Israelis deaths is indeed a very potent indicator of the brutality and the terrorist tactic activities employed by some members of the I.D.F.

The blatant brutality and terrorism is on show for the to the whole world to see, yet the blind apologists for the Zionist Likud regime refuse to open their eyes to the truth.

Any peace move no matter where it may spring from is a step in the right direction which will hopefully bring peace to the area, all involved have to bend in the wind.

The Zionist need to come to realise and understand that in time their actions will come back to them with a vengeance if they will not or do not sit down and talk and follow and implement the agreement recommendations, that also applies to the Palestinians too. Do not.Ignore the outstanding list from the U.N. nor any recommendations that may be made.

The wailing and the gnashing of teeth concerning the claimed sufferings of the Jews over the years has been and still is never ending,

Why don't those in power now query why such situations arose?

Perhaps the behavior pattern of those people in the time past and even now as we read this forum brought on the calamities that they claim have befallen them then and even now.

arfurcrown, I would be interested to hear your definition of the word "terrorist". Yes, Israel responds brutally to Palestinian terrorism but it is fighting for it's very existence after being attacked previously by massed *******.

Israel is in no danger of being destroyed by Palestinians carrying out knife attacks. Could we drop the hysteria?

[Morch]

Shaul, the former soldier and co-founder of Breaking The Silence, a group that collects testimony from army veterans about abuses by troops in the Palestinian territories, said nothing justifies deadly Palestinian attacks, but that public debate in Israel lacks context.

"Anyone who does not understand that the word occupation needs to be at the beginning, middle and end of every sentence (about the current situation) is lying to himself and to the Israeli public," he said.

Its so liberating to read a comment from "Breaking The Silence" for once. If only the TV members who so strongly and openly support the fascist policies of the Likud party would take the time to listen to these people who experienced the atrocities of the Israeli gestapo first hand, their views might change over night (that is if these TV members are really supportive of Israel and not just Islam hating racists, as many of them here are of course). Unfortunately most of the Nethanyahu lovers have their heads so far op their arse that they ignore any news outside the Fox headlines and whipe away the truth with yelling "Leftish-liberal blatant lies"

Don't like religions period; but Islam particularly so please tell me what race Islam is so I know whom I am racist towards. Is it European, African, Arab, Persian, Oriental, or ...?

As far as Breaking the Silence; quite a small group considering the pool they can be pulled from. Would be interesting to see how their numbers compare to other groups in other countries that can be classified as self loathing groups.

Is your reply an confirmation that its not about Israel, but your hate of Islam? I never suggested Islam is a race. Its just that most of the Islam haters are also racists. Is it generalizing? Sure! But I am afraid its not too far from the truth unfortunately......

The size of Breaking the Silence is absolutely not relevant. Its about the information that is finally revealed. And of course the majority of the IDF doesn't come out and reveal that truth. My guess is that its partly because they are brainwashed and partly because they are ashamed of the blood on their hands. Wrt the other "self Loathing groups" you mean something like a group of Hutu soldiers that come out and talk about the rape of Tutsi women? Or a "self Loathing group" of WWII Nazis who have shown remorse?

So when some posters say that Jew haters are racist....is that not-to-far-from-the-truth-generalizing as well?

The sample size provided by BtS vs. the background of overall IDF activity is material. To assume that testimonials could be easily extrapolated into a general description of the IDF would seem far fetched if put in figures.I would venture a guess that the readiness to consider it as indicative of all IDF actions, lies with the preconceived positions one holds.

To proclaim that a truth is not being revealed is begging the question. Here are a few additional options to supplement the suggested narrow point of view: Maybe not all IDF soldiers concur with BtS accounts and interpretations of events, maybe such incidents are not as prevalent as claimed, maybe the lack of context in BtS reports seems absurd to combatants involved.

And on with the hyperbolic vile comparisons, just another day on TVF.

[Morch]

Simple solution is for Palestinians to stop trying to kill Jews. Then Israel would not have anything to retaliate over. Israel is perfectly willing to live in peace if it's neighbours would cease trying to completely destroy their homeland and kill all the Jews. Crying because you started a fight and finished with a bloody nose doesn't wash.

Nobody mentions J K Rowling's lunatic raving on TV so I will. It's just what one would expect from a writer of fantasy fiction.

Simple solution is for Israel to follow Oslo agreement, accept a two state solution and stop the illegal occupation of Palestine, and there is no longer resistance against the fascist Israeli necessary.

No one with any first hand experience of the conflict (or a bit of common sense) imagines that violence will simply cease if the terms above are followed.

Interesting to note that as the topic progresses it is not merely the right-wing Likud party and Netanyahu that are deemed "fascist", but Israel in general.

[Morch]

Israel IS following the Oslo Agreement. The Palestinians are trying to get around their commitment as usual by declaring themselves a country without negotiating with Israel.

The example cited is a violation. Correct. However, mentioning it without context is misleading.

The Oslo Accords were intended as a temporary means to an end, not as a final agreement which never materialized.

Both sides can claim compliance and transgressions by citing various specific instances of the various interim agreements.

[Morch]

Israel IS following the Oslo Agreement. The Palestinians are trying to get around their commitment as usual by declaring themselves a country without negotiating with Israel.

Wasnt the rejection to the two state solution part of the reason why your beloved Nethanyahu won the last elections in March? Or have you conveniently forgotten the reality again. The negotiation were done during the Oslo meetings, actions were next, but Israel never intended to keep to the agreements...

Netanyahu indeed said that, only to backtrack after the elections. Sort of a habit with him (re Muftigate). Question is which version one takes seriously, or if one places much credence in everything Netanyahu says.

The Oslo Accords were not "done" - they were just a step on the way to a final agreement which did not materialize. That they are not a done deal is even pointed out in the OP ("An interim agreement in the 1990s divided the city, placing the center under full Israeli control and the rest under Palestinian self-rule. The fate of the Hebron settlers was left to a final Israeli-Palestinian peace deal that never materialized").

Israel "never intended to keep the agreements"? Really? Would this blanket statement go all the way to them pre-Netanyahu days and to Rabin's Labor-led coalition? And while at it, did the Palestinians follow the agreements to the letter?

[Pakboong]

It is simply unrealistic to believe that all Israeli on Palestinian violence is justified and all Palestinian violence is terrorism. It may well be 90-10 but that number is still unreasonable. Until the numbers at least try to reflect reality, there can be no peace. The number simply is what it is but not real IMO.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Pakboong

[oncearugge]

It is simply unrealistic to believe that all Israeli on Palestinian violence is justified and all Palestinian violence is terrorism. It may well be 90-10 but that number is still unreasonable. Until the numbers at least try to reflect reality, there can be no peace. The number simply is what it is but not real IMO.

What would you describe "Palestinian violence" as if not terrorism.

How do you catagorise firing rockets, suicide bombings and deliberate, murderous attacks on individual Israeli citizens.

Does Israel not have a duty to protect its citizens from terrorism ?

[norfolkandchance]

In my opinion might is right

Regards

[Morch]

I have nothing against the IDF defending their own countrymen, so long as they do it in their own country, and not as the OP clearly states in "Occupied West Bank"

It is pefectly acceptable for Palestinians to resist Zionists who are part of an invading army...pretty brave of them IMO considering how heavily armed the invading israelis are.

Personally I favor passive resistance and shaming Israel before the world with images on the social media of the daily humiliations, beatings and murders they suffer at the hands of the occupying IDF and fanatical Zionist squattters. But I can understand Palestinian frustrations with 22 years of futile negotiations after the Oslo Accords that have given them nothing at all, except Israeli stone walling and further entrenched Israel expansion and colonization.

Not so. You (and others on this forum) often deny Israel's right to take preemptive or retaliatory actions even when these are related to the Gaza Strip, Lebanon and Syria. The version of "defend" accepted reads like waiting until there are casualties (attacks nor resulting in casualties not considered a valid threat). Then, form a committee to check all relevant and irrelevant historical details reflecting on the current situation. A separate committee will galvanize possible moral dilemmas involved. With the reports handed, and the response planned certified with the ever-elusive "proportional" stamp - action might be considered. Heads of relevant committees will be appointed by the UN General Assembly.

Violence is both "perfectly acceptable" and "brave", but, of course, "passive resistance" (unclear if this includes rock throwing) is favored. Sounds like favoring eating the cake and having it too. You did notice that "nothing justifies deadly Palestinian attacks" quote from BtS in the OP, right?

And since apparently the talking point for next 3-4 weeks is Palestinians-got-nothing-at-all-from-the-Oslo-Accords, allow me to save some energy and quote a reply from a recent topic:

"Once again, not true that the Palestinians "got nothing in return", and once again - this is not even something that the Palestinians claim, but one of your own. The Palestinians got the PA, and a limited measure of control over people and territory. They did not have it before, so "absolutely nothing" is incorrect. Rather, prior to the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians had nothing, and after the Oslo Accords they had something. The "something" may seem inadequate to you, but it is still not "absolutely nothing", and as can be observed, the Palestinians are in no rush to let go of their limited national achievements."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/864739-netanyahu-slammed-for-inaccurate-holocaust-comments/?p=10012681

[dexterm]

It is simply unrealistic to believe that all Israeli on Palestinian violence is justified and all Palestinian violence is terrorism. It may well be 90-10 but that number is still unreasonable. Until the numbers at least try to reflect reality, there can be no peace. The number simply is what it is but not real IMO.

What would you describe "Palestinian violence" as if not terrorism.

How do you catagorise firing rockets, suicide bombings and deliberate, murderous attacks on individual Israeli citizens.

Does Israel not have a duty to protect its citizens from terrorism ?

I would describe Palestinian violence as resistance against an occupying army.

Israel has a duty to protect its citizens within Israel but not when they are part of an army of occupation or illegal colonists in the West Bank.

Your might is right principle is an anachronism from the Dark Ages. Most civilized people in modern times prefer to live within the rule of [domestic and international] law rather than anarchy. Much safer and pleasanter that way, and more chance of getting along with your neighbors..

Edited November 1, 2015 by dexterm

[dexterm]

If Israel ended its occupation and gave Palestinians the right to self determination in their own viable state with all the relevant parties signed up to a permanent peace deal, I would be one of those defending Israel's right to retaliate and pre-empt attacks from hot heads (on both sides) who will inevitably not accept the decision of the majority and will attempt to derail the peace.

But when you ignore the huge elephant in the room, the biggest provocation of all...the illegal occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza... I dismiss all Israel's retaliation as unjustified.

Edited November 1, 2015 by dexterm

[Morch]

Get the hell out of occupied territory and there will be no bloodshed, and while you are at it change your warmonger leadership.

We all know your excuses so no need to repeat them dear members.

Who said there will be no bloodshed? Who are you to guarantee it? Did things work out all that well with previous withdrawals?

As for warmonger leadership - how does it reflect on Hamas, and on quite a few of Abbas's Fatah ?

[Morch]

Why won't the occupiers allow for UN peacekeepers to attempt to stop the violence?

UN Peacekeepers need peace to keep. They are not usually deployed prior to having agreements in place.

Since you seem a staunch believer in the UN Peacekeeping prowess, could you cite any regional great success in stopping violence by such forces?

Considering how "well" the UN peacekeeping forces did the minute things got hairy in Lebanon and Syria, and the ill-fated presence of the EU observers at the Gaza Strip, why imagine that they would fare better in a more complicated scenario?

[oncearugge]

It is simply unrealistic to believe that all Israeli on Palestinian violence is justified and all Palestinian violence is terrorism. It may well be 90-10 but that number is still unreasonable. Until the numbers at least try to reflect reality, there can be no peace. The number simply is what it is but not real IMO.

What would you describe "Palestinian violence" as if not terrorism.

How do you catagorise firing rockets, suicide bombings and deliberate, murderous attacks on individual Israeli citizens.

Does Israel not have a duty to protect its citizens from terrorism ?

I would describe Palestinian violence as resistance against an occupying army.

Israel has a duty to protect its citizens within Israel but not when they are part of an army of occupation or illegal colonists in the West Bank.

Your might is right principle is an anachronism from the Dark Ages. Most civilized people in modern times prefer to live within the rule of [domestic and international] law rather than anarchy. Much safer and pleasanter that way, and more chance of getting along with your neighbors..

Tell that to the ME countries "freed" from Dictatorship where significant numbers of the "peace-loving" population are busily engaged in murdering other members of the mostly Muslim population ! What is being "resisted" ?

[Morch]

Israel IS following the Oslo Agreement.

Netanyahu said that a Palestinian state would never be formed on his watch.

Please do explain how that "IS following the Oslo Agreement ".

It isn't. But then he also said the opposite thing right after the elections.

Since most posters seem to think little of Netanyahu's credibility (and rightly so) why take anything he says at face value?

Netanyahu says whatever he thinks beneficial at the here and now, and with regard to his current audience. That's about the size of it.

That he rejects the two state solution is a fair enough statement. That he could not be swayed, maybe not impossible.

At the same time, having the Hamas in a leadership role is definitely not part of the Palestinian obligations, for example.

Easy enough to find violations on both sides, not quite the issue with the Accords sale-by date long gone.

[Morch]

Why won't the occupiers allow for UN peacekeepers to attempt to stop the violence?

They don't want credible witnesses.

According to Sir Gerald Kaufman, a Jew and a British Member of Parliament, around half of the recent reports of Palestinian knife attacks are fabricated.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-mp-gerald-kaufman-accuses-government-of-being-swayed-by-jewish-money-a6712796.html

If this is not about "Jews", but about "Israel" and "Zionism", why was it germane to point out that Sir Gerald Kaufman is a Jew?

Kaufman's views on Israel and the Palestinians are no secret, hardly impartial and objective.

What merits special value to his claims, which are based on other claims made (via email) by "a friend who lives in East Jerusalem"?

About as credible as some of the posts on TVF. Guess he'd feel at home here.

[Jingthing]

Don't be naive. It matters that he is a Jew. That's extra special bonus points for the Israel demonization agenda when they find a prominent Jew who spouts the rabid one sided party line. To add his Jewish money control rhetoric is classically antisemitic in nature.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Jingthing

[Morch]

How can the Israelis claim they simply acting in self defence when they are going round and blowing up the houses of the attackers they have already shot dead ? I'm all for them defending themselves but this is pushing defence to the limit yet they get away with it on the international stage

The official claim is that it a deterrent for future attackers. That many of Israel's security chiefs, past and present, say it does not quite act as advertised, holds little sway with right wing politicians. In my opinion it is more of a primal revenge image, which can be served to certain segments of the electorate. Many cases get stuck in the courts through appeals (especially when it comes to the Supreme Court), thereby diluting whatever little deterrence value these actions actually had. The last Israeli government meeting revolved around accusations of who's responsible for the hold ups....

In general it is immoral, and worse than useless, considering the bad coverage, recruitment value and justification for further violence.

While it does not make Palestinian violence right, it certainly hurts Israel's claims for acting defensively.

[Morch]

Don't be naive. It matters that he is a Jew. That's extra special bonus points for the Israel demonization agenda when they find a prominent Jew who spouts the rabid one sided party line. To add his Jewish money control rhetoric is classically antisemitic in nature.

[Morch]

Ah back to the old JT.

The moral high ground is not shooting someone with a high calibre rifle who has a knife or not shooting unarmed women or not blowing up their family homes or not returning their bodies etc etc etc. But hey disagree with you and I will be simply an anti semite.

Live and let live is the opposite of the Israeli way. The Israeli method seems to be kill and let kill. That seems to be your answer Carry on with your rants here You obviously have a very set opinion as usual

Sorry, I do not see an issue shooting an attacker armed with a knife. There is no requirement that self defense on this level be subject to faux proportionality. I would agree that it comes into play if there is no clear threat (which is sometimes not that easy to judge) and in cases where the attacker was already subdued and the threat neutralized. The demolitions issue was referred to in a previous post. The body snatching thing, yeah...not the thing to emulate from terrorists, and thankfully, the bodies were already returned (apparently, against government/ministerial wishes - details are still murky on this one).

How does stabbing unarmed civilians stacks with this moral high ground thing? How do suicide bombings figure in this balance?

Could you provide a description of what the Palestinian "way" is about?

I don't see how what your posted is antisemitic, but then again you weren't called one...why bring it up? Seems like there was a straw man sale somewhere....

[Morch]

Labour MP Sir Gerald Kaufman has allegedly accused Israel of fabricating some recent stories about knife attacks against Jews in Israel, and claimed the Conservative party is influenced by "Jewish money," in a speech at a pro-Palestine event at Parliament.

The Independent

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-mp-gerald-kaufman-accuses-government-of-being-swayed-by-jewish-money-a6712796.html

News flash. Self hating Jews do exist.

He believes Palestinian propaganda lies verbatim.

Some more background on the atrocious Sir K:

Jewish money. An evening with the PRC, Kaufman and classic antisemitic libels

This isn’t about Israel, this isn’t part of the conflict, this is classic Jewish conspiracy theories, this is NAZI talk. The hidden Jews controlling the world. Jewish money buying permission to kill children. Classic antisemitic libel played out in-public in 2015, politicians present and nobody in the room says a word. I actually felt physically sick. I wasn’t sitting in some dark room in a hidden building in a far away town listening to people whispering amongst themselves, I was sitting on the central estate of one of the greatest democracies on the earth with Westminister Station but 10 meters away.

http://david-collier.com/?p=1336

You have not in any way refuted what he claims, you have simply declared him a self-hating Jew.

As usual, anyone who criticises Israel is antisemite.

Refute what claims? Those made on the power of an email from a friend? And said friend would have accurate access to all crime scenes etc? Give us a break.

It is about as credible as some of the hot headed posts on TVF.

Not anyone who criticizes Israel is an antisemite, - some are, though. You seem to hold the opposite position, that criticizing Israel should serve as an automatic protection from being called one. There is quite a range of variations on this scale, don't see the need to cry it or deny it all of the time.

[Morch]

As a child, I truly believed the American Indian got what he/she deserved. I no longer feel that way. The Palestinian situation is very similar. We still have many of them in refugee camps in some very uninhabitable locations. There are not enough of them left to put up much of a fight.

Which wouldn't pose even a slight logical obstacle for the of Victory-Through-Demographics, and Time-Is-On-The-Palestinians-Side.

Some leave childhood fantasies behind only to pick up faith in false analogies as adults. Palestinian population figures are readily available, and do not indicate a risk of them disappearing anytime soon.

[Morch]

Ah back to the old JT.

The moral high ground is not shooting someone with a high calibre rifle who has a knife or not shooting unarmed women or not blowing up their family homes or not returning their bodies etc etc etc. But hey disagree with you and I will be simply an anti semite.

Live and let live is the opposite of the Israeli way. The Israeli method seems to be kill and let kill. That seems to be your answer Carry on with your rants here You obviously have a very set opinion as usual

I didn't call you an anti-semite. Stop projecting. But I see to you it's all about what the Israelis do, and nothing about what the Palestinians do. That gets nowhere.

Don't assume all who defend the right of Israel to exist and defend itself support all the policies and actions of Israel. That is a total crock.

You know, the naive presumption that all Israel has to do is act all warm and fuzzy and instantly this conflict will be magically over is obviously not true.

As I see you want to traffic in provocative exaggerated hyperbole, I think it's best for everyone if I just put you on my ignore list.

I have agreed with you on a lot of posts jt, but this topic no, but what I have found with you is that if someone doesn't agree with you they go on your ignore list. Don't you think its like throwing your teddy out of the cot, its childish and totally unecessary. Your ignore list must be as long as my arm, have I aspired to your 'hate list now'?

I can see how someone might choose the Ignore option over getting repeatedly agitated by certain views. There is no requirement to endure each and every warped (subjective, yes) notion posted. Don't know why it gets posters so riled up to be put on Ignore list, though - think I'd prefer being aware of it. But if I get it correctly, it doesn't work for all smartphones and anyway quoted posts of Ignored members are visible in reply?

Me, I don't bother with Ignore lists (well, not on this forum anyway), just put down names in the little black notebook, and get on with my posting

[Morch]

They don't want credible witnesses.

According to Sir Gerald Kaufman, a Jew and a British Member of Parliament, around half of the recent reports of Palestinian knife attacks are fabricated.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-mp-gerald-kaufman-accuses-government-of-being-swayed-by-jewish-money-a6712796.html

It is well know he has a Boy Friend who is 22 years old and is a Muslim

Since he is Cheap Charlie to say this BS is cheaper then giving money

Your points, 1. that he has a BF, 2. that the BF is 22, and 3. that the BF is Muslim, all mean what exactly and how do those points relate to what his claims are?

Are you suggesting gay Jews tell lies? Are you suggesting that since his BF is a lot younger than him that he must be evil? Are you suggesting that a Jew that partners with a Muslim is untrustworthy?

What is your point?

I said he is doing this to make his gay lover happy He is thinking with thing between his legs. He is old 76 years old and wants his Bf not to cheat on him.

Like a Farang buying a house for his GF This cost no money

I am giving you the facts nothing more

Considering you are wrong about Sir Gerald Kaufman's age (85...) one may certainly wonder as to how solid your other "facts" are. Almost afraid to ask how you know so much about the guy's love life...

[Morch]

Simple solution is for Palestinians to stop trying to kill Jews. Then Israel would not have anything to retaliate over. Israel is perfectly willing to live in peace if it's neighbours would cease trying to completely destroy their homeland and kill all the Jews. Crying because you started a fight and finished with a bloody nose doesn't wash.

Nobody mentions J K Rowling's lunatic raving on TV so I will. It's just what one would expect from a writer of fantasy fiction.

Simple solution is for Israel to follow Oslo agreement, accept a two state solution and stop the illegal occupation of Palestine, and there is no longer resistance against the fascist Israeli necessary.

Israel's occupation of it's land is quite legal. It was attacked without war being declared and kicked the <deleted> of the aggressors. Any land lost by the aggressors was forfeited due to their aggressive attack on the Jewish state. Make no mistake, this is not about Palestine and Israel, it is about the muslim desire to kill ALL Jews and destroy all their holy places. Israel's actions have all been in order to secure their security and in retaliation for atrocities against their people.

This would also gain the support of other muslim states as their stated intention is for the entire planet to be governed by islam.

I do not believe that there is legal support for "the victor the spoils" nowadays. This is not even the Israeli position when it comes to legalities.

On the same note, even Israel admitted to wrongdoings and does not claim all its actions whatsoever were righteous.

These over the top statements fit well with viewing the entire conflict through but a single aspect.

[Morch]

As a child, I truly believed the American Indian got what he/she deserved. I no longer feel that way. The Palestinian situation is very similar. We still have many of them in refugee camps in some very uninhabitable locations. There are not enough of them left to put up much of a fight.

I think population stats demonstrate what nonsense that is, a wall of money from the E.U, U.S and various NGOs have led to a booming Palestinian population.

P.s I find the 'concern' for Palestinians somewhat selective as you could hear a pin drop listening for protests on behalf of the 2900 Palestinians killed in Syria from some of our esteemed members.

You are right these people go nuts over about 100 killed by Israel but million killed by other Muslems and others nothing

No he's wrong and so are you...and besides, Syria is off-topic.

But no issues when Rwanda, or Nazi Germany are being used as examples.....

[Morch]

Simple solution is for Palestinians to stop trying to kill Jews. Then Israel would not have anything to retaliate over. Israel is perfectly willing to live in peace if it's neighbours would cease trying to completely destroy their homeland and kill all the Jews. Crying because you started a fight and finished with a bloody nose doesn't wash.

Nobody mentions J K Rowling's lunatic raving on TV so I will. It's just what one would expect from a writer of fantasy fiction.

Israel, inasmuch as it is represented by its current government, is not "perfectly willing to live in peace...etc.". At most, it can be said to be willing to accept "a peace" - the definition of which falls short of what the Palestinians wish for or what is generally considered to be adequate.

Are you privy to official Likud policy on the matter of a peace settlement? I would observe that no Israeli government of any party has ever made an offer acceptable to the Palestinians, even the unilateral withdrawal (by Sharon) met with yet more violence. I put it to you that inter-party squabbling within Israel should perhaps take a back seat whilst getting to grips with the obviously deliberate Palestinian rejectionism.

You are quite right. And it's about time they did make a sensible just peace offer!... such as 100% return of Occupied Territories including land swaps equal in size and quality allowing Israel to keep its large settlement blocks..not 95% not 97%....100%. Compensation for all refugees (I would include Jewish refugees from Arab countries too). Then perhaps leave the thorniest issue of all..Jerusalem.final status...till after 5-10 years of peace and trust building.

Sharon left Gaza because he had to..it was too costly in lives and security, besides being illegal anyway...just like the West Bank now. It was never a peace deal.

Much as I disagree with many of Morch's posts I appreciate that he is closer to events than I and often has very valuable information. I also appreciate that he has stated that the occupation as illegal and is in favor of a 2 state solution. I disagree with him on how that is achievable.

You appear to want to censor him in favor a pure Netanyahu (or worse) narrative. One thing I do admire about Israeli society and world Jewry is its plurality of opinions. I just wish they'd unite behind the right one (IMO) for their own peaceful future.

Leaving issues for a "final agreement" is a bad choice. The OP serves as a bitter reminder - "An interim agreement in the 1990s divided the city, placing the center under full Israeli control and the rest under Palestinian self-rule. The fate of the Hebron settlers was left to a final Israeli-Palestinian peace deal that never materialized." Any issue not resolved would simply fester into another instance of the same conflict.

An agreement needs to be very detailed, very clearly defined, with agreed upon mediator for future issues bound to come up. As there is zero trust between the sides, nothing should be left to goodwill, and no assumptions regarding the inherent goodness of human beings. The time for showing heart would come later, if and when the basic situation changes and the agreement holds.

Saying Sharon had to do....anything, is simply misunderstanding underestimating the man. Israeli presence being legal or illegal to the world was not a main factor for him as well.

Two other things missing from your daydream are that there is no leadership capable of pushing this through on either side, and that considering Abbas's age and health, not sure he could be counted on to be around 5-10 years hence.

[seedy]

One off topic post removed