Expat Attitudes around the world

[NaRangsit]

Today is my seventh year anniversary of residing in this fine country; off for a slap up meal with the family and a nice local Thai eatery. Now, I've been mulling this thought for a while. To expats in other countries share the overwhelmingly negative attitude of expats in Thailand? I have a little bit of experience with this. Before Thailand I worked in Honduras; a country that arguably has greater social and political woes than Thailand. Despite not being so developed and downright dangerous the expats seemed to have a more positive outlook on life. Also worked in Prague and folks were really happy their despite the meager salary. So, what's the deal with expats in Thailand?

I have some thoughts:

1. Burnt Bridges back home.

2. Alcohol abuse: Sorry if this is out of line, I'm just calling it as I see it. A lot of expats seem to hammer the booze night after night.

3. Abusive marriages: It's rarely just the Thai girl. Cultural differences and values can be a toxic mix for some.

4: Not being open minded about Thai culture and the Thai way of doing things

Thoughts?

[lovelomsak]

Well for myself burning bridges is the only one that I fit into.

I donot drink,my wife and i get along great. and I like Thai culture and the way they do many things. (but am unhappy the way they are leaving their culture behind and becoming just another generic country the same as the west. Malls ,cars and mortgages.

I am finding it hard to after time to maintain an acceptance of mean spirited indifference and nasty behavior of those with money or power towards the poorer and less fortunate. The lack of humanities wears on me. I knew it was here before I came I did my homework. But reading about it daily and seeing it daily,it becomes harder and harder to not want to say some thing and at times I feel it comes out in appearance as complaining. or bad attitude. I feel it is more just stating frustration and confusion trying to live and deal with a country where face is the most relavent thing.

The other countries you mention donot have the problem with face issues.

Its like living in a world of fiction where truth or logic has no bearing.

Also the end justifies the means here. far to much . Shutting Down Bangkok a fine example.

Edited October 30, 2015 by lovelomsak

[thehelmsman]

Too much time on their hands so they post about how they feeeel as if anyone cares.

[jesimps]

Too much time on their hands so they post about how they feeeel as if anyone cares.

So what's your excuse? Just in case anyone cares.

[Shiver]

I'm sure we all have our gripes wherever in the world we are. Personally I think of it as something like watching the news on television and the ratio of negative to positive stories that are reported, and not necessarily a balanced reflection of what is going on.

[Mudcrab]

Depends on what you mean by expat.

I guess I am old school and consider expat to mean someone posted to another country for work for a defined time and purpose, possibly by a government or large corporation....and this could be for a very long time.

If that definition is accepted then I have met, over the years, some very nice people and some not so nice people and some downright pompous pr!cks. My experience is rather limited though to Hong Kong.

If expat is defined as anyone living in another country to that in which they were born, by self selection, then the whole dimension of human successes and failures opens up with accompanying attitudes.

By this definition I find a lot of posters (not all) on TV to be rather "up themselves" and have delusions of grandeur more associated with a colonial past that still exists in their memory from reading books when youngsters and grasping desperately to memories of black and white movies from their childhood.

Many seem to have become worldly wise after finally making the move to SEA after perhaps a few (or many trips) to tourist destinations in southern Europe over the years.

Many may, it would seem, have indeed experienced life "overseas" but often limited to tacky tourist areas where the main attraction is to drink a lot of alcohol in a short period of time, chase the local women and treat the general population with contempt.

In reality many are economic immigrants simply looking for a pleasant place to see out the rest of their days, with little or no attempt at integrating with the local people and happily whining about perceived injustices done to them by their chosen place of retirement. And complaining how the locals, police and government in general only exist to make their lives difficult.

Still, where would this Forum be without them.

[elgordo38]

I would say being with my Thai g/f for 4 years now and listening to her telling me about her experiences and that of her family. I am learning to hate the inequality here and how the rich rub the noses of the poor into their bloated wealth and also how the present junta cloaks their actions in a cloak of insincerity, yes we will help the common people blah blah blah and anybody with an ounce of common sense knows deep down this is not the case. Sadly I look at history which continuously repeats itself and how true democracy is attained not this false democracy decried by all these numb skull politicians. If its worth having well you know the answer. Her mother and father were also railroaded some years ago here and lost 9 years out of their lives and this I found sickening as well. She is about the only reason I stay or I would head for central America. I would never abandon someone as wonderful as her.

[kiniyow]

Wjhy does many think Central America is great? I tried it for 5 years and I will take Thailand any day of the week

[fekman]

Central America is a toilet. No culture, crap food, dangerous, shit weather, ugly girls, bad beer. Been to nearly every Latin country in the world, and was unfortunate to be stuck in Costa Rica for 4 years. Thailand is heaven compared to Central America.

[1FinickyOne]

My guess is that most are very happy here. All of the expats that I know personally are happy here, happy with their lives, wives, Thai families etc etc…

I think what you have is a few very unhappy people who post on this forum often and it looks like an avalanche… they seem to know little of real Thai culture and language but think they are well informed. My guess is that they would likely be unhappy anywhere.

Edited October 30, 2015 by kenk24

[1sickpuppy]

Too much time on their hands so they post about how they feeeel as if anyone cares.

So what's your excuse? Just in case anyone cares.

I have resided here past 21 years & have several older friends That are lonely but when i go see them all they do is piss & moan about Thailand, why not go to to where they came from, personally i see Thailand as one of the freest countries in the world, course you get the prejiduce <deleted> here sometimes but every country has them, seems the older they get the worse they get, enjoy the fine country

[Mudcrab]

Central America is a toilet. No culture, crap food, dangerous, shit weather, ugly girls, bad beer. Been to nearly every Latin country in the world, and was unfortunate to be stuck in Costa Rica for 4 years. Thailand is heaven compared to Central America.

Expat attitude right there folks.

[bazza40]

I'm certainly happier here than in Australia. The positives here far outweigh the negatives.

I can live in Australia bored out of my skull, in modest circumstances. Here, I can live as a rich man, and any day can be an adventure if I so desire.

I think the OP would find the people on TV who do most of the bitching are either living in the past, or living in straitened circumstances. Poverty does tend to create a jaundiced view.

Personally, I think there's a lot to admire about the Thais. For example, the cohesion of the family unit is second to none.

[JLCrab]

I'm certainly happier here than in Australia. The positives here far outweigh the negatives.

I can live in Australia bored out of my skull, in modest circumstances. Here, I can live as a rich man, and any day can be an adventure if I so desire.

I think the OP would find the people on TV who do most of the bitching are either living in the past, or living in straitened circumstances. Poverty does tend to create a jaundiced view.

Personally, I think there's a lot to admire about the Thais. For example, the cohesion of the family unit is second to none.

From the above: I think the OP would find the people on TV ... It appears that the OP will not be finding anything on TV.

[Globalres]

First of all, this is a great place to "vent" if one has the need to do so. I have lived in at least 12 countries, ranging from 3 years to 15 years per place. Must say the sum of complaints might add up to 8, but the topics of complaints differ. It would be the same wherever I lived, but non of my complaints puts me really in a bad mood. What I love here in Thailand, paradoxically makes me at times irritated. The climate is great, yet at times too hot to take walks and on top of it be confronted with wild dogs. On the other hand I. Europe it gets too cold to enjoy the outdoors. It seems to be 6 of one and half dozen of the other.

Pls help me with this site, I'm not computer savvy and when I send a reply like this I get 100's of emails to my phone. It is said that I can change the configuration, have no clue how to. Laugh at me if you wish, but a sincere reply would be very much appreciated. Thanking someone in advance.

[bangkapi]

I wake up here happy as a clam every day... going on twenty years.

Don't drink alcohol.

Never married.

Spend at least a month every year in "Murica" to remind myself what is there and why I don't want to go back. (no burnt bridges)

I will never be Thai and they will never fully understand me. It's all good. Sabai sabai.

[bazza40]

I'm certainly happier here than in Australia. The positives here far outweigh the negatives.

I can live in Australia bored out of my skull, in modest circumstances. Here, I can live as a rich man, and any day can be an adventure if I so desire.

I think the OP would find the people on TV who do most of the bitching are either living in the past, or living in straitened circumstances. Poverty does tend to create a jaundiced view.

Personally, I think there's a lot to admire about the Thais. For example, the cohesion of the family unit is second to none.

From the above: I think the OP would find the people on TV ... It appears that the OP will not be finding anything on TV.

Sorry, I've missed what your point is.....

[JLCrab]

Banned.

[bazza40]

First of all, this is a great place to "vent" if one has the need to do so. I have lived in at least 12 countries, ranging from 3 years to 15 years per place. Must say the sum of complaints might add up to 8, but the topics of complaints differ. It would be the same wherever I lived, but non of my complaints puts me really in a bad mood. What I love here in Thailand, paradoxically makes me at times irritated. The climate is great, yet at times too hot to take walks and on top of it be confronted with wild dogs. On the other hand I. Europe it gets too cold to enjoy the outdoors. It seems to be 6 of one and half dozen of the other.

Pls help me with this site, I'm not computer savvy and when I send a reply like this I get 100's of emails to my phone. It is said that I can change the configuration, have no clue how to. Laugh at me if you wish, but a sincere reply would be very much appreciated. Thanking someone in advance.

If you want to get off the bus, go to the top of the screen where you should see an icon "unfollow this topic".

[steven100]

OP ... you need to leave your village for a day or so ......... If I read your post it is confusing & contradicting, you say about other expats in other countries ...... and your first statement is 'to' which doesn't make sense.

Anyway, after reading the replies, it appears most expats are happy here, so get outside a bit more .

[CharlieH]

First of all, this is a great place to "vent" if one has the need to do so. I have lived in at least 12 countries, ranging from 3 years to 15 years per place. Must say the sum of complaints might add up to 8, but the topics of complaints differ. It would be the same wherever I lived, but non of my complaints puts me really in a bad mood. What I love here in Thailand, paradoxically makes me at times irritated. The climate is great, yet at times too hot to take walks and on top of it be confronted with wild dogs. On the other hand I. Europe it gets too cold to enjoy the outdoors. It seems to be 6 of one and half dozen of the other.

Pls help me with this site, I'm not computer savvy and when I send a reply like this I get 100's of emails to my phone. It is said that I can change the configuration, have no clue how to. Laugh at me if you wish, but a sincere reply would be very much appreciated. Thanking someone in advance.

If you are having problems, contact forum support here

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/19-forum-support-desk/

Please do not post about tech issues within the topics.

[Gecko123]

Rangsit:

The reason why Thailand's expat forums are more negative and bitter than expat forums in other countries is because there is a unique cultural disconnect between Thailand and most other Western cultures. Thailand has a unique cultural disposition which tolerates, perhaps even encourages, people to think whatever they want. When outsiders realize that what they perceive is not grounded in reality, feelings of being misled and deceived are very common, hence the bitterness.

People who become romantically involved here are particularly vulnerable. Because Thailand's well-established sex-industry fosters opportunities for romantic commitment, I believe this is the reason why Thailand's expat websites have such a undercurrent of bitterness: disappointment in the most primal of human desires, the desire to mate.

In both the long and short answer to your question, in the final analysis, Thailand teaches humility and the importance of being grounded in reality. Painful and harsh lessons, yes, but valuable nonetheless. Sadly, because of cultural erosion and collision, Thailand's ability to instruct regarding these matters has been greatly diminished in the past 30 years. People should be grateful, not bitter, for any lessons learned in Thailand.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Gecko123

[smotherb]

Central America is a toilet. No culture, crap food, dangerous, shit weather, ugly girls, bad beer. Been to nearly every Latin country in the world, and was unfortunate to be stuck in Costa Rica for 4 years. Thailand is heaven compared to Central America.

Expat attitude right there folks.

Yeah, I've seen the "expat attitude" in every country I have worked or lived--including in the US. Depending upon the person and the place, the attitude can settle-in immediately or can take some time. For me, the attitude times were very short when in the Middle East (Saudi, Kuwait, Iran), but lasted a few years in Southeast Asia (Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Singapore). I don't remember a place where all expats were satisfied.

[Time Traveller]

The only thing different I've noticed about expats in Thailand is that if they hear you mention one negative thing about their (sex?) mecca they'll say you're a "thailand failure" and tell you to go back to your own country.

Apart from that people are the same everywhere.

[Shaunduhpostman]

I am going to maybe cut a bit too close to the bone for some and share my own honest thoughts about why Thai ex-pats seem to be so negative. I apologize for that and the long windedness of my reply, but I think it is an important question and an intersting one that I find I enjoy going on at length about. I am often tarred with the "neagtivity" brush by other ex-pats and not by Thais by the way. But to return to the question as to why Thai ex-pats are more negative, I wouldn't argue with you there, is that The cultures in both Czech Republic and Honduras are basically western. So if you are talking about western expats in Thailand, the culture gap is wider in Thailand compared to those places. Its not easy dealing with such a wide gap, especially when it comes to taking care of practicalities, so people tend to get a bit grumpy and make a lot of negative comments, and some can't deal with life here at all eventually and move on. The people in Czech or Honduras have cultures and world views that are rooted in various western traditions and tendencies many of which are not to be found here. I would wager that your day to day interactions with the locals will be much easier, especially if you speak the languages of those places.

Among the cultural differences that I think make so many Thai ex-pats grumpy would be that cause and effect is not paid much attention to in Thailand. It can be very hard to stay positive when people all around you are not making the connection between their actions and the results. It is just a constant that things will get screwed up, things that are fairly easy for us like making an appointment and doing the basics to make sure you keep it. easy things because people just don't link a with b. "I didn't make the appointment because I was out drinking late last night." "Well, you have lost us 500,000 baht because you didin't come to the meeting. We lost the deal." A look of incomprehension, "why is this guy putting this on me. I simply just didn't come to the meeting, why does he blame me for losing the deal for us?" No amount of demonstrating or explaining will change their minds, with many Thais, they just aren't wired to see things in terms of cause in effect for the most part. Throw in the fact that there is very little stock put in using verbal communication to convey information or coordinate things between people and that nobody particularly listens to anyone and nobody bothers to be especially clear about anything and any life you share with most of the locals will just be your participation in their life long slow motion disaster in which no one seems to understand what is happening to them and no one can discuss it because they can't talk or understand anything. I am sorry to put it that way, but there is just one hopeless situation after the other if you try and get involved with many o fth epeople here or god forbid try and get something you need or want with their assistance. Many Thais are very well meaning but you will be in trouble if you get pulled into their vortices of great unknowing. Many of them have nice ties and clothes and an office, but in actiality they are professional card carrying paralyitcs with a license to obstruct, diddle and put off all and everything. Amazingly the difficulties do not end there. There are so many more really difficult things to try and overcome. It is no surprise that many have a negative attitude. Its can be very difficult living here.

Another major aspect of the difficulty is the much lamanted xenophobia. Though I have never been to Honduras or Czech Republic, I have spent many months in Europe and years in Mexico and Guatemala. Mexicans are nationalistic and don't like Americans, but if you show you understand them and their problems and especially if your Spanish is really good, you get genuinely welcomed by many. Europeans will warm up to you if you are not a complete ignoramus, loud mouthed ass as I am sorry to say many Americans are. But there is not much you can do to get real acceptance from others here an i am not convinced that Thais get any acceptance from Thais. Thailand has long had issues with the west as well, but we are seen in a much more negative light than many would be in Czech Republic or Honduras. There is much negativity, however unspoken, directed at anyone who isn't Thai, 24/7. It will eventually get to you. If you are not Thai your differentness and foreignness is on the order of your not even being considered a person. To describe the attitude towards foreigners of many Thais in that way would be no exaggeration. Thankfully it is not all of them, and even the ones who hold negative attitudes can be quite nice on a chit chat level. While even those sorts of Thais often put a pretty good face on such an outlook, the longer you stay the more you notice how very few appreciate your presence and that essentially you are not welcome unless you pay them. They don't believe anything you say don't respect your choices, your values, nothing, you are not their friend. But my Thai wife complains that she and nobody seems to have any friends, she has her family but that is it. I have a few friends from various foreign countries but she says Thais are not worth befreinding, its no fun and only gets you entagled in something you don't want to be caught up in. It always makes me laugh when Thais suggest that I might want to live closer to an international airport, a comment that comes up a lot more than it should. I know that on the surface they are trying to be pleasant and appear as though they want the best for me, that maybe I would want to be able to run home at the drop of a hat for my own comfort, safety etc. But the thought always occurs to me that there is perhaps a double meaning that they would also like me as close to being out the door as humanly possible.

All that said I enjoy my private life here immensely,I have long had a good relationship to my wife and her numerous family members, but I no longer have any inclination to participate in the society at large as much as I would like to. There just isn't any scope for being part of the whole society for most foreigners here. Essentially they want us to butt out. Again they are pretty nice about it mostly, but keep your distance if you want to be happy here. I also think it helps me not feel so bad about how I am seen by many as a white man when I see how negative Thais are to each other, so and so is Khmer, OH! So and so is from the south those people are jai dum! and to Indians and blacks etc. No matter who you are there is an issue that someone will have with your merely by your physical appearance or because of where you come from. Many ex-pats want to pin certain "negative" attitudes on ex-pats as though they belong solely to ex-pats. But if you win a few Thais trusts to the point that they might be honest with you about their own "negative" feelings about the country and the societies within which they have to try and live, I think you might be surprised, as I often have been, that there are many similar feelings about things as are shared among many "ex-pats". The country has real problems, they are not just the side-effect of someone's drinking binges or their problems back in their home countries, Thailand is a tough place to live especially in the social realm.

[bazza40]

Shaunduhpostman, thanks for a thorough and informative post - BUT - we have some points of difference.

My experience is that Thais can be very helpful - I've come off my scooter several times, and immediately been surrounded by Thais helping me up and setting my scooter to rights.

I suspect a lot of the negativity comes from those who think they have some kind of divine right to speak in English and be comprehended automatically. While my Thai is a long way from fluent, it gets the job done and I think falangs who at least speak some Thai get a better reception.

Certainly there is racism in Thailand - my Thai g/f thinks Akha are dumb and dirty. She won't eat at any restaurants that are Akha.

Probably a lot of the frustration with Thai culture comes from the fact time means nothing to a Thai. I was once, through no fault of my own,

3 hours late for an appointment with an electrician. In his shoes, I probably would have been foaming at the mouth with rage; however, his reaction was mai bpen rai. Westerners have to be prepared to reset their body clocks and eschew guilt.

I tend to treat social interactions here as between acquaintances rather than friends. My Thai g/f has an enormous range of friends; however, she may not see or talk with one of them for several years. When they do reconnect, it's about 4 hours of bap-bap-bap. They mostly catch up on family developments, or who is screwing who in the village.

I've never got myself too concerned with making friends here, either Thai or falang. If you like me, fine. If you don't, we both have better things to do with our time.

[ggt]

I think there's a lot to admire about the Thais. For example, the cohesion of the family unit is second to none.

Had to smile at that one...more Thai women are raising their kids alone...or turn them over to their mothers to raise...because of a father who just disappeared one day when he saw a newer model...than any other place on earth that I am aware of...

Please...prove me wrong...

[Gecko123]

Shaunduhpostman:

I see two flaws in your arguments:

(1) You mainly blame Thailand's culture because it's too different than what you're accustomed to. An overly ethnocentric analysis.

(2) You overlook the fact that you don't see the same extreme negativity in neighboring countries' expat communities despite their cultures being very similar to Thailand's.

[bazza40]

I think there's a lot to admire about the Thais. For example, the cohesion of the family unit is second to none.

Had to smile at that one...more Thai women are raising their kids alone...or turn them over to their mothers to raise...because of a father who just disappeared one day when he saw a newer model...than any other place on earth that I am aware of...

Please...prove me wrong...

If a sister or brother is sick, support will be there. Kids go to the grandmother for care if the mother has to go off to work in another city. Grandmother or grandfather - anyone elderly - are looked after as if they are precious crystal.

I did say the family unit. If you want to extend that to present or absent in-laws, yes you have a point - for what it's worth.

[Globalres]

First of all, thanks, bazza40, for your info, a much more informative reply than I got fromTV. Be that as it may.

As regards of how people feel in each country, it's quite easy. I have received many questions about where was the best place I lived. (I did mention that I had lived in many countries ranging from 3-15 years at each time).

This rather lengthy post is in response to how we feel and respond to living abroad and the complaints that follow.

The best country is where you can make yourself understood and fit in easily to the culture. In my case, strangely enough this was South Africa, which at the time was considered the worst place to live in during the 1980's to 1994. The reason for this was that I could develop my own company and be who I wanted to be. My husband had a work permit and was working for an international company.

In fact, at the time South Africa promoted foreigners opening their own companies, and in my case employed some 40 employees. These 40 guys would have very little prospects in finding jobs. I am a landscape designer, and decided to open up a garden service as well as a garden design service. Well, South Africa as such benefited from my company by me paying VAT and other taxes, as well as employment benefits for my employees. After a lot of hard work, I was voted amongst the top of 10 landscape designers (out of 200), it took me years, dedication and hard work to earn. I also assisted with ideas to the English Chelsea garden show ideas, where South Africa got many awards. But here in Thailand I am not permitted to work at all! Well, I am not a spring chicken any more, but my mind and my designs are considered stunning. And yet here, I cannot use my creative ideas.

I actually did help a large garden design center here, free of charge, and they were rather flabbergasted at the design ideas. Not saying any thing wrong with Thai garden designs, not at all, but all Thai garden design authorities were quite intrigued. But no way for me to work here. In fact worked with a rather well known professor of horticulture here, he lamented the fact that I did not get a work permit. I changed a lot of his thinking about garden shapes and how to create illusions in gardens.

This is the probably one thing I have against Thailand, they are not prepared to take on good talent from abroad, neither do they want to adopt international ideas.. I can understand that they want to keep their national heritage gardens as they want. But in my opinion, they should not be afraid to incorporate other ideas, just like fusion cooking.

Oops, another thing I hate, and that is the lousy pavements and hanging electrical wires. The government is thinking about buying submarines, why not get electrical wires going under ground first, pavements and roads safe without pot holes. Then we can talk about spending money on submarines, internet gateways etc.

It's really a shame that Thailand makes it so hard for foreigners to open up own businesses here, the country could actually really benefit from this. Creating jobs for Thais, and adding to the well-being of the employees' families, in my opinion, should be a blessing to this otherwise rather backward society.

We (foreigners) at least me, employ maids, pool and garden service, so keep several people with jobs. Just imagine what we could do to aid the Thai economy if it were easier to start a company and employ even more people. We would not be stealing jobs from the Thais, we would be educating more of them to learn new skills.

Well, that was six pence of my thoughts. Love it or hate it. Hugs to you all who love Thailand, including me, but perhaps wish for a government who saw the positive sides of having educated foreigners being allowed to educate the uneducated. Ciao