Pai: British rape victim speaks up about ordeal

[MiKT]

The discussion in this thread has gone stale. Now we've reached the absurd stage in which everyone is restating what they have already said, which isn't necessary on a forum where all previous posts can be examined verbatim. We're about a half step away from name-calling.

My final contribution, I hope, is to wish the victim a full and speedy recovery and to wish Thailand will someday provide safer streets to the tourists it courts so openly and profits from so richly.

+1 to that. But I would add, safer streets for its own women as well.

Probably too much to ask, but one would also wish that someday the authorities would have a rational, practical response to events like this. They always seem to come in with not only inane comments but also sometimes inane and off-target measures.

I remember the horrible rape/murder in Samui some years back that was immediately followed by local police explaining that rapes were caused by foreign women sunbathing topless on deserted beaches. Never mind that the rape & murder had occurred on the most heavily populated beach on the island while the victim was fully clothed...and that most of the rapes on Samui likewise took place on heavily frequented beaches (why on earth would a rapist head for a deserted beach where it might take days on end for a victim to appear? ). A year ago I happened to be on that same beach a little after sunset and noted that still nothing had been done about lighting, there are still stretches of it next to vacant lots which are pitch black. For all the restaurants etc in the area, it would still be quite possible for someone to grab a woman off the beach and drag her into the brush without being seen.

From what I understand there is a problem in Pai in that there are tourist-frequented bars in the town, tourist accomodations outside of town, and no taxis etc to take people home, so foreigners have for lack of an alternative taken to bumming rides with locals. The much maligned victim was simply doing what has become normal practice, and for want of an alternative, but such a situation was an accident waiting to happen. Had it not been a rape, it might have been a robbery or a robbery-murder, and male tourists could also be victims.

The answer is obviously to address the transport problem. Since the authorities won't, let's hope the bar owners will. Wouldn't be that hard to arrange to recruit a few trustworthy (or at least known with their ID cards on file) locals with cars to provide for a taxi service at night for a fee, and to post a sign advising customers to use this and not hitchhike.

You are absolutely right, but what is wrong with this thread is that the victim is indeed "much maligned" because some posters cannot see that posting "helpful" advice to avoid going out at night and drinking is of no use or consolation to the victim who should be highly commended for putting herself through the ordeal with the police and not condemned by implication for being assaulted and raped because she ended up alone in a bar at 2AM.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

The discussion in this thread has gone stale. Now we've reached the absurd stage in which everyone is restating what they have already said, which isn't necessary on a forum where all previous posts can be examined verbatim. We're about a half step away from name-calling.

My final contribution, I hope, is to wish the victim a full and speedy recovery and to wish Thailand will someday provide safer streets to the tourists it courts so openly and profits from so richly.

+1 to that. But I would add, safer streets for its own women as well.

Probably too much to ask, but one would also wish that someday the authorities would have a rational, practical response to events like this. They always seem to come in with not only inane comments but also sometimes inane and off-target measures.

I remember the horrible rape/murder in Samui some years back that was immediately followed by local police explaining that rapes were caused by foreign women sunbathing topless on deserted beaches. Never mind that the rape & murder had occurred on the most heavily populated beach on the island while the victim was fully clothed...and that most of the rapes on Samui likewise took place on heavily frequented beaches (why on earth would a rapist head for a deserted beach where it might take days on end for a victim to appear? ). A year ago I happened to be on that same beach a little after sunset and noted that still nothing had been done about lighting, there are still stretches of it next to vacant lots which are pitch black. For all the restaurants etc in the area, it would still be quite possible for someone to grab a woman off the beach and drag her into the brush without being seen.

From what I understand there is a problem in Pai in that there are tourist-frequented bars in the town, tourist accomodations outside of town, and no taxis etc to take people home, so foreigners have for lack of an alternative taken to bumming rides with locals. The much maligned victim was simply doing what has become normal practice, and for want of an alternative, but such a situation was an accident waiting to happen. Had it not been a rape, it might have been a robbery or a robbery-murder, and male tourists could also be victims.

The answer is obviously to address the transport problem. Since the authorities won't, let's hope the bar owners will. Wouldn't be that hard to arrange to recruit a few trustworthy (or at least known with their ID cards on file) locals with cars to provide for a taxi service at night for a fee, and to post a sign advising customers to use this and not hitchhike.

That's the most sense anyone has made on the forum today.

[Cook my sock]

Yes, spot on.

[The manic]

This ain't Camden or Islington . Thailand is not a place for naive single women travelers.

.

[bangmai]

The discussion in this thread has gone stale. Now we've reached the absurd stage in which everyone is restating what they have already said, which isn't necessary on a forum where all previous posts can be examined verbatim. We're about a half step away from name-calling.

My final contribution, I hope, is to wish the victim a full and speedy recovery and to wish Thailand will someday provide safer streets to the tourists it courts so openly and profits from so richly.

+1 to that. But I would add, safer streets for its own women as well.

Probably too much to ask, but one would also wish that someday the authorities would have a rational, practical response to events like this. They always seem to come in with not only inane comments but also sometimes inane and off-target measures.

I remember the horrible rape/murder in Samui some years back that was immediately followed by local police explaining that rapes were caused by foreign women sunbathing topless on deserted beaches. Never mind that the rape & murder had occurred on the most heavily populated beach on the island while the victim was fully clothed...and that most of the rapes on Samui likewise took place on heavily frequented beaches (why on earth would a rapist head for a deserted beach where it might take days on end for a victim to appear? ). A year ago I happened to be on that same beach a little after sunset and noted that still nothing had been done about lighting, there are still stretches of it next to vacant lots which are pitch black. For all the restaurants etc in the area, it would still be quite possible for someone to grab a woman off the beach and drag her into the brush without being seen.

From what I understand there is a problem in Pai in that there are tourist-frequented bars in the town, tourist accomodations outside of town, and no taxis etc to take people home, so foreigners have for lack of an alternative taken to bumming rides with locals. The much maligned victim was simply doing what has become normal practice, and for want of an alternative, but such a situation was an accident waiting to happen. Had it not been a rape, it might have been a robbery or a robbery-murder, and male tourists could also be victims.

The answer is obviously to address the transport problem. Since the authorities won't, let's hope the bar owners will. Wouldn't be that hard to arrange to recruit a few trustworthy (or at least known with their ID cards on file) locals with cars to provide for a taxi service at night for a fee, and to post a sign advising customers to use this and not hitchhike.

You are absolutely right, but what is wrong with this thread is that the victim is indeed "much maligned" because some posters cannot see that posting "helpful" advice to avoid going out at night and drinking is of no use or consolation to the victim who should be highly commended for putting herself through the ordeal with the police and not condemned by implication for being assaulted and raped because she ended up alone in a bar at 2AM.

It was reported that she was a friend of the bar-owner.

[Bender]

this will happen again and again, and nothing will be change.

The main culprits are ... the thai apologists! These people spend all their time on forum

like tripadvisor, lonelyplanet, thaivisa, claiming how safe this country is, how lovely thai people are.

Then tourists come and get raped and murdered.

These thai apologist do certainly work in the tourism industry!

[Cook my sock]

Slightly OT

It would be interesting to see cold hard statistics of tourism dangers. Road deaths, drug deaths, suicides, attacks, rapes etc.

All I know is that nearly 400 uk nationals die in Thailand per yr. Not sure how many are natural causes

The foreign office travel advice focuses mainly on terrorism when the main cause of deaths is road deaths, drugs etc

How many uk travellers die of terrorism compared to road accidents ?

[MaeJoMTB]

Slightly OT

It would be interesting to see cold hard statistics of tourism dangers. Road deaths, drug deaths, suicides, attacks, rapes etc.

You are 20x more likely to die on holiday in Thailand, than on holiday in the west.

(according to British FO stats, and Australian government stats)

No breakdown of causes for some reason.

Murder rate by firearms in Thailand is 10x murder rate by firearms in USA.

Warnings from the UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2833369/Thailand-one-dangerous-tourist-destinations-Earth-Ex-pat-investigation-lifts-lid-dark-Land-Smiles.html

Warnings from Australia

http://thenewdaily.com.au/life/2014/11/06/thailand-our-most-deadly-holiday-destination/

[jonwilly]

As a Young Pup here, not been here long enough for Old Timer status, I remember the really Old Hands words on this subject.

If you act and Dress like a Lady, you will be treated as a Lady.

john

[FolkGuitar]

Slightly OT

It would be interesting to see cold hard statistics of tourism dangers. Road deaths, drug deaths, suicides, attacks, rapes etc.

You are 20x more likely to die on holiday in Thailand, than on holiday in the west.

(according to British FO stats, and Australian government stats)

No breakdown of causes for some reason.

Murder rate by firearms in Thailand is 10x murder rate by firearms in USA.

Warnings from the UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2833369/Thailand-one-dangerous-tourist-destinations-Earth-Ex-pat-investigation-lifts-lid-dark-Land-Smiles.html

Warnings from Australia

http://thenewdaily.com.au/life/2014/11/06/thailand-our-most-deadly-holiday-destination/

Do we know how Thailand reports its crime statistics? Some countries (such as Japan) only report 'solved' crimes, rather than all reported crimes. Some countries Law Enforcement agencies will only respond to crimes that they believe they can actually solve, and refuse to accept reports of those crimes they believe are impossible to deal with. International agencies such as Interpol must make 'educated guesses' as to the actual numbers for total crimes in those countries, which it uses in its own statistical data bases.

[Puwa]

As a Young Pup here, not been here long enough for Old Timer status, I remember the really Old Hands words on this subject.

If you act and Dress like a Lady, you will be treated as a Lady.

john

And how's that working for you, Cupcake?

[DeaconJohn]

As a Young Pup here, not been here long enough for Old Timer status, I remember the really Old Hands words on this subject.

If you act and Dress like a Lady, you will be treated as a Lady.

john

And how's that working for you, Cupcake?

It's probably working very well for him.

No problems with the locals and he still has his willy.

[jonwilly]

Puwa

Grow up my child.

As for my willy, not much left after Dr B chopped it last month.

john

When in Thighland do as the Thighlanders do.

[timewilltell]

Putting herself into a situation where she could get victimized? That IS her fault.

Who in their right mind... drinks to excess?

The young woman should not be allowed out of her house without parental supervision.

...the fact is, crime exists.

1. Hmm... What makes you think she was drunk? That's what the police implied, but it doesn't mean it's true.

2. So, following your own advice, if you really want to avoid being a murder victim, lock yourself in your house and never open the door. Ever.

1. This thread can only deal with what was written. We have no actual proof that the entire incident actually occurred... other than it was reported. We have to start somewhere. Even if she had been stone-cold sober, do you think it's wise for a young woman alone to be getting into or onto vehicles with strangers on dark rural roads at 2am in a foreign country where she really doesn't speak the language? Would you suggest trying this to your daughter?

2. Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote. I stated quite clearly that there is NO fool-proof way to avoid becoming a victim. There ARE steps that can be taken to reduce the risk.

Did you teach your children NOT to talk to strangers? Did you teach them NOT to get into cars with strangers? Did you teach them NOT to walk alone on dark, deserted streets late at night? These are the steps to reduce the risk of them becoming a victim, while still getting on with our lives. We can ONLY reduce the chances of becoming victimized. Until there is no such thing as 'crime,' we can never really eliminate it completely, even by locking yourself in your house.

So I ask you the same questions that I've put to others: would you let your daughter travel alone, drunk, at 2am, get into or onto vehicles with a stranger on a rural back road in your own country? Now imagine if your daughter couldn't speak the language of the country in which she is alone, drunk, at 2am on a rural back road.... Would you tell her it was a good idea?

Whether it was a good idea or not bears little on the fact that the Thai police are a racist bunch of xenophobes who protect Thai criminals who attack foreigners. To excuse a rapist is a terrible thing and to respond by saying the cause is the odd bar that opens late (because they bribe the police to do so) is idiotic.

There needs to be a complete rejection that rape is acceptable and for people to understand the smiley roses wonderful Gentle Thailand is a complete falsification to scam people into visiting here under false pretenses.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[MaeJoMTB]

Whether it was a good idea or not bears little on the fact that the Thai police are a racist bunch of xenophobes who protect Thai criminals who attack foreigners. To excuse a rapist is a terrible thing and to respond by saying the cause is the odd bar that opens late (because they bribe the police to do so) is idiotic.

There needs to be a complete rejection that rape is acceptable and for people to understand the smiley roses wonderful Gentle Thailand is a complete falsification to scam people into visiting here under false pretenses.

To fair to the Thai people,

None of them believe a rape occurred.

As my relatives all say (wife, MIL, teen daughter) "she went alone on his m/c, that's consent"

Thailand has the right to make it's own laws, and run it's own justice system.

They don't have all that much sympathy for foreigners who behave in a foolish way in their country.

"If you don't like our laws, don't come here" is their usual, and quite sensible response to complaints.

[MiKT]

Whether it was a good idea or not bears little on the fact that the Thai police are a racist bunch of xenophobes who protect Thai criminals who attack foreigners. To excuse a rapist is a terrible thing and to respond by saying the cause is the odd bar that opens late (because they bribe the police to do so) is idiotic.

There needs to be a complete rejection that rape is acceptable and for people to understand the smiley roses wonderful Gentle Thailand is a complete falsification to scam people into visiting here under false pretenses.

To fair to the Thai people,

None of them believe a rape occurred.

As my relatives all say (wife, MIL, teen daughter) "she went alone on his m/c, that's consent"

Thailand has the right to make it's own laws, and run it's own justice system.

They don't have all that much sympathy for foreigners who behave in a foolish way in their country.

"If you don't like our laws, don't come here" is their usual, and quite sensible response to complaints.

You just can't leave it alone blaming this poor girl can you!

"To be fair to the Thai people, none of them believe a rape occurred" - So you can speak on the behalf of 67 million Thais can you?

How about the police, how about the hospital that performed rape tests, how about the perpetrator who CONFESSED to rape?

So you think that the many millions of visitors to Thailand who will get on a motorcycle alone should be subject to rape because they are here? How about the fact that Thailand has strict laws against rape.

Most Thais are very sympathetic to foreigners who behave in a foolish way in Thailand, much more so than in many other countries. But your relatives think that a woman who gets on a motorcycle is consenting to rape? clearly some level of insanity runs in the whole family.

This, like all of your posts, is so bloody crass its unbelievable.

[LarryBird]

If she consented to sex by taking a ride with him, why did he have to force himself on her?

[Chicog]

As my relatives all say (wife, MIL, teen daughter) "she went alone on his m/c, that's consent"

Congratulations, the females in your family have been successfully subjugated.

(Or they are as dim as a Toc H lamp).

[MaeJoMTB]

So you think that the many millions of visitors to Thailand who will get on a motorcycle alone should be subject to rape because they are here? How about the fact that Thailand has strict laws against rape.

You are changing the story, she didn't go on a m/c alone,

She got on the back of a Thai mans m/c to go for a ride in the jungle, just the two of them.

The poor Thai guy doesn't know what happened, girl says yes, then changes her mind later.

Only people from the twisted world that is the west would think of this as rape.

Now if he's beat her to death in the process, different matter (unless it was on Koh Tao).

If he's broken into her hotel room at night, different matter.

But no, not a mark on either of them, she willingly went off with him, alone together into the jungle, and he drove her home after ...... normal night out for a Thai guy.

He made a mistake. She made a mistake.

But it's his country, and nobody in his country really cares about her.

Hey, I've never said rape is acceptable,

But neither is having the right to wait until 25 years after the event before deciding if you consented (or not).

[MaeJoMTB]

If she consented to sex by taking a ride with him, why did he have to force himself on her?

No marks on either of them, not a single bruise or scratch.

He can't have used much force and she can't have used much resistance.

[Chicog]

So you think that the many millions of visitors to Thailand who will get on a motorcycle alone should be subject to rape because they are here? How about the fact that Thailand has strict laws against rape.

You are changing the story, she didn't go on a m/c alone,

She got on the back of a Thai mans m/c to go for a ride in the jungle, just the two of them.

The poor Thai guy doesn't know what happened, girl says yes, then changes her mind later.

Only people from the twisted world that is the west would think of this as rape.

Now if he's beat her to death in the process, different matter (unless it was on Koh Tao).

If he's broken into her hotel room at night, different matter.

But no, not a mark on either of them, she willingly went off with him, alone together into the jungle, and he drove her home after ...... normal night out for a Thai guy.

He made a mistake. She made a mistake.

But it's his country, and nobody in his country really cares about her.

Hey, I've never said rape is acceptable,

But neither is having the right to wait until 25 years after the event before deciding if you consented (or not).

Well you've successfully proven in the last few messages that you are a fackin idiot.

[MiKT]

So you think that the many millions of visitors to Thailand who will get on a motorcycle alone should be subject to rape because they are here? How about the fact that Thailand has strict laws against rape.

You are changing the story, she didn't go on a m/c alone,

She got on the back of a Thai mans m/c to go for a ride in the jungle, just the two of them.

The poor Thai guy doesn't know what happened, girl says yes, then changes her mind later.

Only people from the twisted world that is the west would think of this as rape.

Now if he's beat her to death in the process, different matter (unless it was on Koh Tao).

If he's broken into her hotel room at night, different matter.

But no, not a mark on either of them, she willingly went off with him, alone together into the jungle, and he drove her home after ...... normal night out for a Thai guy.

He made a mistake. She made a mistake.

But it's his country, and nobody in his country really cares about her.

Hey, I've never said rape is acceptable,

But neither is having the right to wait until 25 years after the event before deciding if you consented (or not).

I am changing the story!!!!

It's not me saying "It's his country" so he can rape who he likes.

If nobody in this country cares how come there are so many posts supporting her.

I have three suggestions for you:

1. Go back and read the story again, check out small points like:

"When she noticed that they had driven past her guesthouse she protested, but he began to drive faster and faster".

"He had no weapon, but he had force. The police asked why I didn’t scratch him, but look, I have no nails,” showing me her tiny nails, all bitten to the quick."

"I am a lesbian, I am not interested in men. I was fighting him the whole time,"

"I was covered in mud and blood"

2. Ask yourself how YOU KNOW there were no marks on either of them?

3. Urgently go to the nearest hospital and get yourself checked for the onset of Alzheimer's. With YOUR sick sense of humour and YOUR warped and twisted mind it’s almost certain that you are well down this road.

[Sao Jiang Mai]

If she consented to sex by taking a ride with him, why did he have to force himself on her?

No marks on either of them, not a single bruise or scratch.

He can't have used much force and she can't have used much resistance.

Where did you get your information from MaeJoMTB? Your assertions go against every single statement including those of the victim, the hospital, the police, my own conversation with the victim, and even the accused own statement. Just wondering whether you had some inside track here or you just go around making things up to malign a victim for kicks? Or perhaps you could take two minutes to go back and read the report to get yourself informed before passing judgement. Just a friendly suggestion.

[MaeJoMTB]

Or perhaps you could take two minutes to go back and read the report to get yourself informed before passing judgement. Just a friendly suggestion.

It would be more helpful if you summarized the injuries and marks on victim and alleged attacker, on this thread, then linked back to the report that listed them.

Cut on left forearm, bruise on right knee, little finger on left hand broken ........ kind of thing.

Dam_ned if I can find any, anywhere?

[Chicog]

[Linky]

Yes a perfect example to be in attitude adjustment camp to move into this century. Fundamentalist radicals are found in many places and disguises

[MiKT]

Or perhaps you could take two minutes to go back and read the report to get yourself informed before passing judgement. Just a friendly suggestion.

It would be more helpful if you summarized the injuries and marks on victim and alleged attacker, on this thread, then linked back to the report that listed them.

Cut on left forearm, bruise on right knee, little finger on left hand broken ........ kind of thing.

Dam_ned if I can find any, anywhere?

Helpful to who? What gives you the right to ask for this level of information?

You are a disgustingly sick troll and should be banned from this discussion.

Who is the moderator for this forum? this man (not a real man) has no respect for himself (not surprisingly) or the victim and continues to post ugly remarks and unsubstantiated conjecture that denigrates the victim of a horrible crime to satisfy his own inflated ego's views of what he thinks might have happened; seemingly just to upset other posters and the victim. This is true Trolling and it should not be allowed to continue.

[Cook my sock]

Whether it was a good idea or not bears little on the fact that the Thai police are a racist bunch of xenophobes who protect Thai criminals who attack foreigners. To excuse a rapist is a terrible thing and to respond by saying the cause is the odd bar that opens late (because they bribe the police to do so) is idiotic.

There needs to be a complete rejection that rape is acceptable and for people to understand the smiley roses wonderful Gentle Thailand is a complete falsification to scam people into visiting here under false pretenses.

To fair to the Thai people,

None of them believe a rape occurred.

As my relatives all say (wife, MIL, teen daughter) "she went alone on his m/c, that's consent"

Thailand has the right to make it's own laws, and run it's own justice system.

They don't have all that much sympathy for foreigners who behave in a foolish way in their country.

"If you don't like our laws, don't come here" is their usual, and quite sensible response to complaints.

This attitude encapsulates a lot of what was said earlier. It's good to know where we stand.

A question to you. I guess this is the same for the Koh Tao couple, right?

[MaeJoMTB]

A question to you. I guess this is the same for the Koh Tao couple, right?

I can't find any reason to think Hannah and the guy did anything to bring trouble on themselves.

But let's try comparing like with like,

That Australian woman (Stevie Bamford) claiming to be raped by a tuktuk driver (2012), big story on TV, police found a video proving false claim.

Scots student in Nakon Si Thamarat claiming to be gang raped, witness said no attack took place.

Drunk Dutch girl in Cm claiming to be raped by 3 men, evidence suggested no attack but consensual.

The woman in CM claiming to be raped in a guesthouse while another couple were in the room having sex, other couple said consensual.

The British barman in Cambodia accused of raping a British tourist, his boss found CCTV footage of them holding hands and kissing before and after the alleged rape took place.

So there really is a long history of false allegations of rape being made by young foreign tourists every year.

Which sort of makes a few of us TV readers a bit skeptical when another one with a bit of an iffy story gets published.

Yeah, the hang em high, men are evil, women are angels brigade are out in force each time.

But it isn't evidence, and excuse me if I wait until the judge convicts before I scream for them to cut his balls off!

PS

You do understand in the UK, 7 out of 8 rape accusations never reach court.

50% because they are considered outright as false by the police.

[MiKT]

A question to you. I guess this is the same for the Koh Tao couple, right?

I can't find any reason to think Hannah and the guy did anything to bring trouble on themselves.

But let's try comparing like with like,

That Australian woman (Stevie Bamford) claiming to be raped by a tuktuk driver (2012), big story on TV, police found a video proving false claim.

Scots student in Nakon Si Thamarat claiming to be gang raped, witness said no attack took place.

Drunk Dutch girl in Cm claiming to be raped by 3 men, evidence suggested no attack but consensual.

The woman in CM claiming to be raped in a guesthouse while another couple were in the room having sex, other couple said consensual.

The British barman in Cambodia accused of raping a British tourist, his boss found CCTV footage of them holding hands and kissing before and after the alleged rape took place.

So there really is a long history of false allegations of rape being made by young foreign tourists every year.

Which sort of makes a few of us TV readers a bit skeptical when another one with a bit of an iffy story gets published.

Yeah, the hang em high, men are evil, women are angels brigade are out in force each time.

But it isn't evidence, and excuse me if I wait until the judge convicts before I scream for them to cut his balls off!

PS

You do understand in the UK, 7 out of 8 rape accusations never reach court.

50% because they are considered outright as false by the police.

You just can't get it through your thick head that what happened in other cases has no bearing on this case, which is what makes more than a few of us TV readers more than a bit sceptical about your sanity.

Yes it is an unfortunate fact that many rape accusations get thrown out, but many, many times because of intimidation or more often the fact that (as in this case) the police and courts make it very difficult for the victim. If you want to post facts about rape why don't you look a bit further than a few odd statistics.

Why? why? what did this girl do to you that gives you the right to question her? Why do have to keep on implying a false claim of rape even though the perpetrator has confessed? have you been accused of rape before? is this what is your problem?

You (presumably) weren't there, you have (presumably) never met this girl, you (presumably and nothing you have written leads us to believe otherwise) know nothing except what has been posted here, but you continue to prevaricate and twist the facts to suit your Walter Mitty fantasy that you know something different about this proven case or rape.

God, what a w....er