David Cameron vows to seize control of Britain's borders as he sets out his demands for EU reform

[Thaimike370]

Cameron wants to stay in the EU. UKIP wants to take us out of the EU, withdrawal from the EU will save the UK 60 million pounds a day. Only a fool would call UKIP the UK idiots party. It is the only party that speaks up for the British people.

[bartender100]

Cameron will go down in history as one of our better Prime Ministers, not an easy job trying to sort out the UK's problems, which incidentally are faced by all of Europe

"Dammed if he does, dammed if he don't"

In the mean time Britain is fairing up pretty well

[Shadychris]

Cameron will go down in history as one of our better Prime Ministers, not an easy job trying to sort out the UK's problems, which incidentally are faced by all of Europe

"Dammed if he does, dammed if he don't"

In the mean time Britain is fairing up pretty well

Say whaaat???

Are you by any chance Specsavers top selling sales rep for rose tinted glasses?

[baboon]

Cameron will go down in history as one of our better Prime Ministers, not an easy job trying to sort out the UK's problems, which incidentally are faced by all of Europe

"Dammed if he does, dammed if he don't"

In the mean time Britain is fairing up pretty well

Say whaaat???

Are you by any chance Specsavers top selling sales rep for rose tinted glasses?

It certainly is fairing up pretty well if you are the hirer of a nanny or a gardener, as opposed to working as a nanny or a gardener. Let's see how they feel, however, when bank managers, solicitors and journalists start to get laid off in favour of cheaper Eastern European staff...

Edited November 11, 2015 by baboon

[Shadychris]

Cameron will go down in history as one of our better Prime Ministers, not an easy job trying to sort out the UK's problems, which incidentally are faced by all of Europe

"Dammed if he does, dammed if he don't"

In the mean time Britain is fairing up pretty well

Say whaaat???

Are you by any chance Specsavers top selling sales rep for rose tinted glasses?

It certainly is fairing up pretty well if you are the hirer of a nanny or a gardener, as opposed to working as a nanny or a gardener. Let's see how they feel, however, when bank managers, solicitors and journalists start to get laid off in favour of cheaper Eastern European staff...

Now wouldn't that be a beautiful case of poetic justice!!

Sadly though the 10% of people that hold 90% of the wealth would never allow such a situation to arise. As evidenced by the fact that UK politics is still blighted by the ludicrous situation whereby in spite of nearly twice as many people voting for anything other than David Cameron's mantra, the Conservatives still win a majority Government...

Perhaps bartneder100 was being subjective, and maybe should have expanded his comment to read "In the mean time Britain is fairing up pretty well - for a country half way up Sh*t Creek without a paddle"..

Edited November 11, 2015 by Shadychris

[cookee68]

Not much of a fight for reform was it

[Shadychris]

Not much of a fight for reform was it

I'm guessing you might be referring to the 2011 vote for Electoral Reform where the Government cunningly managed to completely obfuscate a large portion of the UK population by offering up a vote with the basic choices of either FPTP (existing system) or AV with the latter Alternative vote system being so badly explained by 'official' Government info sources that many simply did not understand it at all.

Indeed had the UK had an AV system in the 2015 General Election even more Conservative members would have been returned to power. So what the UK was actually offered in the so called vote for reform was the same system, or something else few people understood, and that in certain cases - such as the 2015 GE, would actually result in an even more unrepresentative Government!

The majority of people who wish to see Electoral reform want a Proportional Representation derived system. With that not being offered as a choice it was hardly surprising that the turnout for the vote was so low - people who didn't understand it didn't bother to vote, and those wanting change who did understand it didn't bother to vote as the only option for change was a worse one than the existing system!

The net result being that whenever the question is now raised of reforming the ballot system the Government can glibly say 'we have already had a vote on that within the last few years and the majority decided to keep the existing system'... What a joke!

[Richard W]

Looking at p5 of the letter,it seems that those Britons amongst us with still-foreign (e.g. Thai) wives will lose our current freedom of movement within Europe.

Scenario:

• Thai wife settles in UK (currently takes 5 years)
• Move to Germany for work for three years. Wife loses UK ILR.
• Husband retires, and his income falls below the spouse visa settlement threshold.

They can no longer return to the UK to live; for all I know, the wife may even be expelled from Germany because their income is too low.

So what do you value more? Your 'freedom of movement' within Europe or keeping some kind of control over UK borders in order to prevent an unsustainable population growth? Although the unusual scenario you describe would indeed be unfortunate for a small minority of people, I suspect the vast majority of UK citizens would much prefer to sacrifice their freedom of movement within the EU.

If we do leave the EEA, it will be interesting to see what happens to Britons who have retired to Spain. Will they have to 'get proper visas'? The financial threshold for foreigners to retire to the UK is quite high.

If the UK remains in the EU, some families headed by EU citizens may be denied the freedom of movement they previously had and most others retain. This is what I am objecting to. These families may find an unreformed EEA better than a 'reformed' (i.e. less liberal) EU, despite the large-scale loss of political rights.

[Thaimike370]

Cameron will go down in history as one of our better Prime Ministers, not an easy job trying to sort out the UK's problems, which incidentally are faced by all of Europe

"Dammed if he does, dammed if he don't"

In the mean time Britain is fairing up pretty well

Cameron will go down in history as second only to Conman Blair, as the worst PM in UKs history. He has made promises he had no intention of keeping prior to the election, he has been promising an in/out referendum on the EU. for 6 years, he has allowed and continuing to allow unrestricted immigration into our already overcrowded tiny island. He has had no effect on stopping the illegals coming in from France, he has allowed unrestricted use of the NHS by foreigners. He has allowed our schools and education system to become overcrowded, our health care system to become a disgrace. He has reduced our armed forces to the point where even the French could beat us. We have an aircraft carrier with no aircraft, our soldiers are ill equipped. He does not listen to the voters or learn from them, he is working to his own agenda only, he wants to stay in the corrupt EU while the majority of the Brits want to leave. By staying in the EU he is costing the British taxpayers 66,000,000 pounds a DAY which could be better spent on the British people. In 20 years, the corrupt EU has never had its books audited, that alone points to corruption at the highest levels. He gives away billions of pounds to countries that don't need it or even hate us, all of this money could be better spent on the UK. He pays benefits to foreigners who have entered our country illegally, he houses them in homes worth millions while we have tens of thousands homeless British people and ex-service men. We have several million who have never had a job since leaving school, and have no intention or need to work because they receive benefits yet have never paid a penny into our system. He allows foreign criminals and Muslim terrorist and hate preachers to walk our streets, rape and kill our British people and does not deport every single one of them and their families. Basically he is a traitor to our people and country.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Thaimike370

[billd766]

All hail the political genius behind this news: Nigel Farage.

The Conservatives are too in bed with the Industrialists to finally break with the abomination that is Europe. It will take a Farage premiership to finally lead Britain to save itself.

UKIP is a party for idiots.

Really?

Would you care to explain the reasons why you think this is so?

Over 4,000,000 people in the UK didn't think so in the last elections.

[Steely Dan]

What a bizarre premise, a sovereign nation hoping to seize control of its own borders. Such an event to happen outside of wartime demonstrates what a mess we are in.

[Steely Dan]

All hail the political genius behind this news: Nigel Farage.

The Conservatives are too in bed with the Industrialists to finally break with the abomination that is Europe. It will take a Farage premiership to finally lead Britain to save itself.

UKIP is a party for idiots.

Really?

Would you care to explain the reasons why you think this is so?

Over 4,000,000 people in the UK didn't think so in the last elections.

It's the kind of reductionist mudslinging the lib-left indulges in when they haven't got a leg to stand on.

[up2u2]

Cameron is absolutely right. Shut down UK Borders. The last thing a country needs is immigrants invading their country as this video from Australia graphically shows.

[nontabury]

Cameron is absolutely right. Shut down UK Borders. The last thing a country needs is immigrants invading their country as this video from Australia graphically shows.

This video had absolutely nothing to do with the U.K., so please take your distorted propaganda elsewhere. I can only wonder where you come from.

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

[Shadychris]

Cameron is absolutely right. Shut down UK Borders. The last thing a country needs is immigrants invading their country as this video from Australia graphically shows.

This video had absolutely nothing to do with the U.K., so please take your distorted propaganda elsewhere. I can only wonder where you come from.

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

The elephant in the room here is that the UK already has 20% of its population born outside of the UK (and that's just the legally declared ones) - it's not going to be too much longer before those immigrants ARE the majority....

Equally, or maybe even more worrying, is that in 2014 over a quarter of births (27%) were registered to mothers born outside of the UK. That figure is projected to rise to over 30% by the end of this year. So numbers of immigrants entering the UK is only a part of the problem - compounded by the fact that once they've arrived they start breeding like rabbits.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Shadychris

[up2u2]

Cameron is absolutely right. Shut down UK Borders. The last thing a country needs is immigrants invading their country as this video from Australia graphically shows.

This video had absolutely nothing to do with the U.K., so please take your distorted propaganda elsewhere. I can only wonder where you come from.

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

Sounds scary 'nontabury'. Lucky Cameron is there to protect you and keep you safe. Keep your doors locked and maybe don't go out at night might be safer. They sound like a bad lot.

[bartender100]

Just like to know who these posters that hate DC so much would like to see as PM, Mr Corbyn perhaps?, or maybe Red Ed would have done a better job? or do they long for the days of Harold Wilson

[Shadychris]

Just like to know who these posters that hate DC so much would like to see as PM, Mr Corbyn perhaps?, or maybe Red Ed would have done a better job? or do they long for the days of Harold Wilson

You really don't seem to get it do you?

I don't see much here in the way of posts from people claiming to hate David Cameron - this is not about a personality or affability contest anyway. What is seen here are posts from people who hate to see what has become of the UK over the past 5 years of a Tory government presided over by DC.

Your reference to us hankering for the days of Harold Wilson are frankly odd, and indicate an ignorance of UK political history. May I remind you that Harold Wilson presided over a Labour Government that campaigned heavily in the referendum of 1975 for a yes vote to stay in the EU..

[Richard W]

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

The only connection I can see between this and the EU is that the EU may have helped us to remain relatively prosperous. Which unassimilable groups from the EU do you have in mind?

[Richard W]

What a bizarre premise, a sovereign nation hoping to seize control of its own borders. Such an event to happen outside of wartime demonstrates what a mess we are in.

Freedom of movement of labour was a well-advertised aspect of the EEC. The complaint should rather be addressed to the inclusion of poor European countries. Perhaps the problem lies in the fall of the Iron Curtain - the advertised potential expansion across Europe was probably ignored because of it.

[Shadychris]

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

The only connection I can see between this and the EU is that the EU may have helped us to remain relatively prosperous. Which unassimilable groups from the EU do you have in mind?

Oh you don't see any connection in the fact that as a result of EU membership UK borders are open to these economic migrants, and that further as a result of EU membership UK Governments hands are tied in relation to allocation of State benefits to these people... Are you honestly believing that had we never joined the EU we would still be in such a perilous position regarding population numbers and over demand on public services and resources??

What a bizarre premise, a sovereign nation hoping to seize control of its own borders. Such an event to happen outside of wartime demonstrates what a mess we are in.

Freedom of movement of labour was a well-advertised aspect of the EEC. The complaint should rather be addressed to the inclusion of poor European countries. Perhaps the problem lies in the fall of the Iron Curtain - the advertised potential expansion across Europe was probably ignored because of it.

Wow you really are the ultimate EU apologist!! Lets blame it all on the fault of the fall of the Iron Curtain.......

NO - how about let's blame the EU for allowing the inclusion of these poor countries, who were only ever going to 'take' from the pot. The UK has been royally stitched up by the EU - powers to self govern have been eroded away, powers to control borders removed, both resulting in the UK becoming number 1 on the list of places for economic migrants to target.

The UK can have no meaningful negotiations with Brussels - history has shown that already. Concessions won invariably turn out to be hollow promises, and anything that is given is very quickly taken away again somewhere else.

It is time now to make the break.

[cookee68]

Not much of a fight for reform was it

I'm guessing you might be referring to the 2011 vote for Electoral Reform where the Government cunningly managed to completely obfuscate a large portion of the UK population by offering up a vote with the basic choices of either FPTP (existing system) or AV with the latter Alternative vote system being so badly explained by 'official' Government info sources that many simply did not understand it at all.

Indeed had the UK had an AV system in the 2015 General Election even more Conservative members would have been returned to power. So what the UK was actually offered in the so called vote for reform was the same system, or something else few people understood, and that in certain cases - such as the 2015 GE, would actually result in an even more unrepresentative Government!

The majority of people who wish to see Electoral reform want a Proportional Representation derived system. With that not being offered as a choice it was hardly surprising that the turnout for the vote was so low - people who didn't understand it didn't bother to vote, and those wanting change who did understand it didn't bother to vote as the only option for change was a worse one than the existing system!

The net result being that whenever the question is now raised of reforming the ballot system the Government can glibly say 'we have already had a vote on that within the last few years and the majority decided to keep the existing system'... What a joke!

Well written

[Richard W]

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

The only connection I can see between this and the EU is that the EU may have helped us to remain relatively prosperous. Which unassimilable groups from the EU do you have in mind?

Oh you don't see any connection in the fact that as a result of EU membership UK borders are open to these economic migrants, and that further as a result of EU membership UK Governments hands are tied in relation to allocation of State benefits to these people... Are you honestly believing that had we never joined the EU we would still be in such a perilous position regarding population numbers and over demand on public services and resources??

EU membership has led to the arrival of a large number of assimilable immigrants. The unassimilable immigrants are mostly the result of of asylum and empire - though perhaps I'm overlooking the likes of Assad's in-laws. Is there also a significant issue with second-hand unassimilable immigrants, such as French Algerians and Danish Somalis?

NO - how about let's blame the EU for allowing the inclusion of these poor countries, who were only ever going to 'take' from the pot. The UK has been royally stitched up by the EU - powers to self govern have been eroded away, powers to control borders removed, both resulting in the UK becoming number 1 on the list of places for economic migrants to target.

It's far more appropriate to blame parliament for approving their accession, e.g. the European Union (Croatian Accession and Irish Protocol) Act 2013.

Freedom of movement for EU (then EEC) nationals came about when we joined the EEC. It is rather that our powers of exclusion have been extremely sparingly used against EU nationals.

The UK has been extremely generous in extending EU nationals rights that they do not have. One of the big attractions of the UK is that we speak English, a widely learnt language.

[Richard W]

for 6 years, he has allowed and continuing to allow unrestricted immigration into our already overcrowded tiny island.

Your unqualified statement is a lie. There have long been restrictions on immigration, and the 2012 tightening of immigration restrictions on family members not protected by EU directives is well known.

Croatian immigration is currently restricted.

He has had no effect on stopping the illegals coming in from France,

If true, it's a difficult task. What do you suggest? Fumigating lorries? Cluster bombing camps? (I'm not sure that we have kept cluster bombs.)

he has allowed unrestricted use of the NHS by foreigners.

Thank you, Mr Cameron, for allowing my wife to visit her GP free. Resident foreigners are generally allowed to use the NHS.

Are you saying that it is Labour that tightened up restrictions on its use? As its use by non-resident British citizens has been restricted, I hardly think its use by foreigners is unrestricted.

In 20 years, the corrupt EU has never had its books audited, that alone points to corruption at the highest levels.

Wow, I didn't realise the Court of Auditors was a sinecure.

[Richard W]

Speaking of David Cameron,

He allows foreign criminals and Muslim terrorist and hate preachers to walk our streets, rape and kill our British people and does not deport every single one of them and their families. Basically he is a traitor to our people and country.

Please clarify what you are saying. Are you saying that if my wife unsuccessfully disputed a charge of speeding, my daughter and I should be deported? I am securely British, but my daughter is tainted by my wife's nationality and so became only conditionally British in 2006. Perhaps you do think it is in the public interest to deprive the children of foreign criminals of British citizenship.

The deportation of released, convicted murderers is well-nigh mandatory. I am not sure that Abu Hamza al-Masri's brood are conditionally British. I rather suspect they've freed themselves of any taint of non-British nationality they may have aquired from their mother. I am not sure whether British citizens have an in-country right of appeal against deportation. Note that British citizens have the right to make an appointment to return to the UK if they don't have the general right to enter using a British passport. It is possible that being allowed to buy an emergency passport to return to the UK is only a right if you are 'temporarily excluded', but if not 'temporarily excluded', British citizens may lawfully enter the country other than through a port, e.g. by walking up most British beaches.

When you hang Cameron, please first make sure he is actually guilty of what you hang him for.

[Shadychris]

I'm surprised you are not a politician yourself Richard W....

Three consecutive posts of mostly complete obfuscating BS. You can certainly smell the countryside when you sit down at your keyboard!

Who cares if they are 'assimilable' immigrants or 'non-assimilable' immigrants. They are all people currently freely allowed to enter the UK with no control on numbers or circumstances of individuals. What part of your twisted brain fails to understand that the current situation cannot be allowed to continue at its current scale?

What is the difference in blaming the EU, or blaming the EU parliament for allowing ex USSR states to join the EU? Simple fact is if the UK wasn't in the EU then it wouldn't matter a jot who is to blame as the UK could put restrictions in place..

Foreigners not allowed to use the NHS - not heard of the big problem with so called 'medical tourists' costing the NHS £millions every year?? Do you watch the news much? Read newspapers?

But I'm afraid your last little gem was the one that loses you any shred of credibility, or more importantly respect - comparing the situation of your wife getting charged with speeding, to the scenarios of terrorists, murderers, and rapists is quite frankly, reprehensible, disgusting and beneath contempt, and certainly not worth of any further response beyond this one.

[Richard W]

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

Who cares if they are 'assimilable' immigrants or 'non-assimilable' immigrants.

It would seem that Nontabury cares.

What is the difference in blaming the EU, or blaming the EU parliament for allowing ex USSR states to join the EU? Simple fact is if the UK wasn't in the EU then it wouldn't matter a jot who is to blame as the UK could put restrictions in place..

I blamed the British parliament. Curiously, though, one doesn't hear much about problems because of nationals from the ex-USSR states. As you are probably unaware, these states are Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Moldova and the Ukraine are problems waiting to happen.

Foreigners not allowed to use the NHS - not heard of the big problem with so called 'medical tourists' costing the NHS £millions every year?? Do you watch the news much? Read newspapers?

I read newspapers. Do you, or do you just read the Daily Mail? Or do you just look at its headlines? I would remind you of Mark Twain's dictum: 'If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed'. Newpaper headlines are no more reliable than ThaiVisa's.

I tend to check up on surprising claims. Now, when you say 'foreigners', it appears that you mean 'non-residents'. When it comes to hospital costs, the biggest element is for treatment starting in accident and emergency. That suggests that the 'problem' is in hand. The next issue is interesting - apparently, there has been a disincentive to attempt to recover costs. This has or will soon be corrected. Foreign non-EU family members of UK citizens to settle in the UK are now typically being charged an £1100 contribution in two instalments, regardless of how much tax they pay on any earnings.

[Richard W]

Speaking of David Cameron,

He allows foreign criminals and Muslim terrorist and hate preachers to walk our streets, rape and kill our British people and does not deport every single one of them and their families.

Please clarify what you are saying. Are you saying that if my wife unsuccessfully disputed a charge of speeding, my daughter and I should be deported? I am securely British, but my daughter is tainted by my wife's nationality and so became only conditionally British in 2006. Perhaps you do think it is in the public interest to deprive the children of foreign criminals of British citizenship.

The deportation of released, convicted murderers is well-nigh mandatory. I am not sure that Abu Hamza al-Masri's brood are conditionally British. I rather suspect they've freed themselves of any taint of non-British nationality they may have aquired from their mother. I am not sure whether British citizens have an in-country right of appeal against deportation. Note that British citizens have the right to make an appointment to return to the UK if they don't have the general right to enter using a British passport. It is possible that being allowed to buy an emergency passport to return to the UK is only a right if you are 'temporarily excluded', but if not 'temporarily excluded', British citizens may lawfully enter the country other than through a port, e.g. by walking up most British beaches.

But I'm afraid your last little gem was the one that loses you any shred of credibility, or more importantly respect - comparing the situation of your wife getting charged with speeding, to the scenarios of terrorists, murderers, and rapists is quite frankly, reprehensible, disgusting and beneath contempt, and certainly not worth of any further response beyond this one.

I wasn't clear what Thaimike370 was complaining about. I though he might have been complaining about foreign criminals being allowed to walk the streets of Britain. I must admit I wasn't too chuffed about Thaksin, family and friends walking them, though that wasn't in David Cameron's time.

Are you aware that it is now in principle mandatory for foreigners sentenced to one year or more in prison to be deported? Exceptions are made when the foreign nationality is not a good way of describing them - the courts have commented that the such offenders are better described as British criminals than as foreign criminals, or deportation would break up a family unit that it would be unduly harsh or perhaps impossible to move to the offender's country of nationality. There is also an inherent problem in deporting people who have been granted asylum - there are a lot of nasty people in the Middle East. These matters have to be balanced in cases of potential deportation - the gravity of the offence also has to be taken into account.

Conceivably Thaimike370 was thinking of lesser degrees of criminality. If one disputes a speeding charge, it goes to court, and one loses, it goes on one's criminal record, and can prevent one gaining indefinite leave to remain. In some cases, it has meant the difference between settlement and expulsion.

Similarly, Thaimike370 appeared asked for the entire families of foreign criminals to be deported. If a Thai wife murders her British husband in Britain before she naturalises, then she falls to be deported if released from prison. Should the children she bore her husband be deported?

[nontabury]

The problem in the Small islands of the U.K. Is that it is being overran by large numbers of economic immigrants, many of whom have no intention of integrating with he existing population, instead they want their ways and beliefs forced onto the majority.

It would seem that Nontabury cares.

What is the difference in blaming the EU, or blaming the EU parliament for allowing ex USSR states to join the EU? Simple fact is if the UK wasn't in the EU then it wouldn't matter a jot who is to blame as the UK could put restrictions in place..

I blamed the British parliament. Curiously, though, one doesn't hear much about problems because of nationals from the ex-USSR states. As you are probably unaware, these states are Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Moldova and the Ukraine are problems waiting to happen.

Foreigners not allowed to use the NHS - not heard of the big problem with so called 'medical tourists' costing the NHS £millions every year?? Do you watch the news much? Read newspapers?

I read newspapers. Do you, or do you just read the Daily Mail? Or do you just look at its headlines? I would remind you of Mark Twain's dictum: 'If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed'. Newpaper headlines are no more reliable than ThaiVisa's.

I tend to check up on surprising claims. Now, when you say 'foreigners', it appears that you mean 'non-residents'. When it comes to hospital costs, the biggest element is for treatment starting in accident and emergency. That suggests that the 'problem' is in hand. The next issue is interesting - apparently, there has been a disincentive to attempt to recover costs. This has or will soon be corrected. Foreign non-EU family members of UK citizens to settle in the UK are now typically being charged an £1100 contribution in two instalments, regardless of how much tax they pay on any earnings.

Yes Richard, I do care that the British authorities are NOT looking after the British people, but instead are eroding their culture and permitting "sorry encouraging" people who have no intention of integrating,to come into the UK. I get the feeling from talking with friends and relatives back in the UK that they now consider themselves second class citizens in their own country. Maybe it's about time that the British government started copying the Thai model with regards to how they respect their own people as apposed to bending over backwards for none citizens.

I can only assume RICHARD that you are not British, or are a reader of ONLY the Guardian and the independent. For myself I read both of those two newspapers, plus the Daily Express and some UK local papers, unfortunately I cannot gain access to the Daily Mail due to it not being available here.

[bartender100]

Just like to know who these posters that hate DC so much would like to see as PM, Mr Corbyn perhaps?, or maybe Red Ed would have done a better job? or do they long for the days of Harold Wilson

You really don't seem to get it do you?

I don't see much here in the way of posts from people claiming to hate David Cameron - this is not about a personality or affability contest anyway. What is seen here are posts from people who hate to see what has become of the UK over the past 5 years of a Tory government presided over by DC.

Your reference to us hankering for the days of Harold Wilson are frankly odd, and indicate an ignorance of UK political history. May I remind you that Harold Wilson presided over a Labour Government that campaigned heavily in the referendum of 1975 for a yes vote to stay in the EU..

That's right all the problems just started over the last 5 years? nothing to do with the 13 years of Labour that opened all the doors to immigration and Labour that presided over the slowest growth for 50 years

Labour’s biggest achievement in Europe was to give away half our rebate, won by Thatcher 10 billion or near enough

Your blaming DC , I am defending him, for the problems he inherited which take more that 5 years