Selling non Chanote Land / Home

[Kenny202]

My girl has a home in an Issan village Thailand. We have decided to sell the house and land but we are a bit confused re rights to sell. We were under the incorrect assumption before that the original owner had a Chanote but he didn't. On checking with the lands office it is still officially government land. Apparently at different times here the lands office has come out and surveyed and titled peoples land (after a long process) but my girl was never here the last few times they come out. We can pay a nominal fee to get them to come and survey the land and get the ball rolling but could be up to 5 years after that to fully go through.

Reason we are worried is she sold a part of her land 5 years ago and recently had the buyer turn up wanting her money back. Was a sham where she involved the police etc and we eventually sorted it out but no body at the time seemed to know the actual law in regards to this. Long story but the woman at the time of sale was informed the land didn't carry a Chanote and there were witnesses to that. The Poh jai ban also signed off on everything etc but he wouldn't have a clue. I know there is land sold like this every day all over rural Thailand and not to only family members. Im guessing 98% of the time the owner wants to sell, the buyer wants to buy and every one walks away happy and doesn't make any problems. I just don't want anything to come back and bite us after the last debacle.

I posted this some time ago and got a lot of "he said" "she said" but would really like to hear from someone who knows the law 100%, ie if it got tested in court.

I personally wouldn't buy land without a Chanote and I have told my missus I can't see anyone else stumping up money like that either. For eg I assume as the land has no title no bank would loan money. That being the case we would be looking for a cash buyer. I would assume anyone in Thailand with that sort of cash money would have more sense and spend their money on a home with a title. It's a tidy but modest home, maybe worth around 600-700k THB. We're about 60km out of the main city centre and not in the best part of the village. (poor person central). I just can't see anyone stumping up cash like that without title. Could be wrong

So my questions are....

1) Is it ok to sell land and home without Chanote?

She has a basic paper receipt from the previous owner (original settler in the area) who likewise doesn't have Chanote.

2) Is it ok to sell land and home without Chanote to non family members

3) Would we be doing anything risky?

In our sale documents we would have a clearly written / signed statement that the buyer fully understood the land was sold without title

[Robert24]

There is still a lot of land in Thailand without chanote which get bought and sold daily. Especially in rural areas. Usually no issues. I've never heard about issues about this. Make a contract, get the village leader to witness the transaction and all is good. No risk in my opinion.

[Kenny202]

There must be a legislation about this somewhere? Or maybe not. TIT :-(

[crazygreg44]

my girlfriend has 22 rai of land and the title is not a chanote. but she can live and do on this land as she wishes. She cannot sell it but hand it over to a family member, with the said title transferred to them by the land office. Regardless if money changed hands or not. But obviously she cannot sell to a person outside of her family. She could however keep the land and "rent" the farm out to anyone outside her family who would want to farm it, for either a yearly lease or a part of the yearly yield of the rice field and the rubber.

As I see your case it is obvious that you cannot sell the land because it has no chanote. If you really want to move to another place, then I would search within the family if anyone has any interest in living in the premises and farm the remaining land, for a smallish yearly fee.

The women who complained maybe got in trouble once the two of you started to interrogate in the land office . .who knows?

Edited November 22, 2015 by crazygreg44

[Kenny202]

Well you can and they do sell non chanote land everyday in Thailand. Just not sure of the legalities of it all should the sht hit the fan

[DonaldBattles]

If you don't have a chanote you don't own the land. If someone is foolish enough to pay you for something that you do not own then they should fully understand that they have no legal right.

[TheCruncher]

This are the different type of title deeds available in Thailand, and a description of what are your rights. I'm sure you will know which type of deed your gf holds.

http://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/thailand-land-title-deeds.html

The 6 main title documents issued by the Land Department for individual use relate to temporary occupation, use and occupation, confirmed right of possession or notification of possession of land (i.e. the Sor Kor 1). In fact all the land documents issued by the Land Department, except the chanote, are still officially government land. The Nor Sor 3 title deeds are rights of confirmed possession similar to ownership rights, however are not true ownership documents.

Edited November 22, 2015 by TheCruncher

[blackcab]

Cruncher saved me some typing!

What you need to do is establish what title the land has. When you know how close (or far) you are from having a chanote you will be able to work out your next steps.

[elgordo38]

My g/f's family have had a "farm" in their family for about 30 to 40 years. The land can be used by the family and passed on to family members only but they can NEVER sell the land according to PRESENT laws.

[Kenny202]

She has no title whatsoever and as far as I know the lands office have no record of her even living here. She has had the land and house for nearly 10 years. As do many others here. The lands office comes here periodically and goes door to door surveying the land for people and starts the chanote process in their name. It's ridiculous but I have come to expect this sort of stuff as normal in Thailand

[pinkpanther99]

There are whole property developments in Hua Hin (and probably throughout Thailand) built on land that is not full chanote. You can sell land/property that is not on full chanote and people will buy it. Stupid people but people buy it nonetheless.

[PattayaPhom]

How can you sell something that isn't yours and is legally recognised as Government land? Koh Tao is a classic example. Multi million Baht properties bought and sold on land that is officially only for agriculture use. Yes it happens but what also happens is at some point these properties are demolished and squatters evicted, You have seen at first hand by your own experience.. Two wrongs don't make a right so saying neigbours do it is a lame excuse.

[steven100]

There is no problem with owning land without a chanote. I bought 3/4 rai in our village and put a house on it then bought the 1/2 rai next to us , all from the old guy who lives down behind us.

The paperwork to obtain the chanote will happen as government goes from village to village and does the necessary steps as needed to verify the owner. Ours is in the process and will be complete within the next 6 months.

[Kenny202]

There is no problem with owning land without a chanote. I bought 3/4 rai in our village and put a house on it then bought the 1/2 rai next to us , all from the old guy who lives down behind us.

The paperwork to obtain the chanote will happen as government goes from village to village and does the necessary steps as needed to verify the owner. Ours is in the process and will be complete within the next 6 months.

how long will it have taken from the time they surveyed Ur land to the time u get the chanote in Ur hand? This will vary from provinces no dount

[steven100]

There is no problem with owning land without a chanote. I bought 3/4 rai in our village and put a house on it then bought the 1/2 rai next to us , all from the old guy who lives down behind us.

The paperwork to obtain the chanote will happen as government goes from village to village and does the necessary steps as needed to verify the owner. Ours is in the process and will be complete within the next 6 months.

how long will it have taken from the time they surveyed Ur land to the time u get the chanote in Ur hand? This will vary from provinces no dount

I would say around 12 months .. but in saying that ' who knows ..... as you said it may depend on location.

The point being .... you can buy land without the chanote , then submit to obtain the chanote at the local office.

[TheCruncher]

Has the OP actually already figured out which of the 6 types of land title deeds his gf is holding, so he would know right away if he has any hopes on a chanote in the future or not?

[blackcab]

I would suggest you contact the land office and find out if they will issue a title for the land, and how long it will take.

It's going to be so much easier to sell with a title.

[phantomfiddler]

I had some land with the green eagle on the top, but a quick visit to the land office, a small financial enticement to have the surveyors out there, and presto the top chanotes with the red eagle were very quickly received. Do it

[MaeJoMTB]

Land without Chanote is for local people only.

You can legally sell it to a villager (born in the area), sale recorded by village head.

If you sell it to someone from Bangkok etc., the sale can be revoked later.

[MobileContent]

She has no title whatsoever and as far as I know the lands office have no record of her even living here. She has had the land and house for nearly 10 years. As do many others here. The lands office comes here periodically and goes door to door surveying the land for people and starts the chanote process in their name. It's ridiculous but I have come to expect this sort of stuff as normal in Thailand

A farang and his girl friend bought a piece of land 10 years ago and build a nice home on it. The farang passed away 3 years ago on cancer in Australia and the wife has been living at the house since then.

A few months ago the wife approached my Mrs and asked if we would like to buy her house and land and after further investigation she has been asked to destroy the land and return it to the government.

She had no chanote title and the PYB witnessed the sell. The seller has lived on that land for many years before they sold it.

As for me, no chanote means no buying or selling of land in Thailand.

[puukao]

I am currently selling 92873489274329847234938247324 rai of land. No Chanote. I accept bitcoins.

Edited November 23, 2015 by puukao

[TheCruncher]

I had some land with the green eagle on the top, but a quick visit to the land office, a small financial enticement to have the surveyors out there, and presto the top chanotes with the red eagle were very quickly received. Do it

Sure with some money changing hands illegal chanotes were handed out in the past.

Recently the government has reclaimed already a few million Rai of such land.

[TheCruncher]

I am currently selling 92873489274329847234938247324 rai of land. No Chanote. I accept bitcoins.

Mate, you really need to have a look at this thread.

http://www.thaivisa....nding-dementia/

Change in sense of humour 'a sign of impending dementia'

[kris95]

There are several other forms of land titles, claims or rights of private use, some issued by the Land Department and some by other government departments. Some which are issued by other government departments offer ownership rights (like the Chanote) and are accurately surveyed but can not be sold and can only be transferred by inheritance. Some claims are merely rights of possession or use and have practically no rights associated with them, nor is it possible to register a sale, lease, usufruct or obtaining a or to obtain a building permit for (local exceptions for building possible).

Sor. Por. Gor. 4-01 (S.P.G.. 4-01), is an allotment of land from the Land Reformative Committee, and under no circumstance may this land be bought or sold. It confers the right to occupy only and be transferred only by inheritance. It seems that the land may be used for agriculture only.

Sor. Tor. Gor. (S.T.G.), is an instrument issued only in the zone of national reserved forest, the holder of this title document have the right to reside and live on the STG. land. STG. land is prohibited for sale, however, the right of the holder to reside and live on the STG. land can be passed on heir by inheritance. This document issued by the forest department.

Por. Bor. Tor. 5 (P.B.T. 5), is an evidence showing that the occupier of a plot of land has been issued a tax number and has paid tax for using the benefit of the land. This confers no right at all but was formerly used to establish that the holder was occupying a plot of land and could apply for a Sor Kor 1.

Nor. Kor. 3 (N.K. 3), is a utilization certificate issued under the act of land allocation for living B.E. 2511. This document issued only for member of self-help settlement.

Gor. Sor. Nor. 5 (G.S.N. 5), is a utilization certificate issued under the act of land allocation for living B.E. 2511. This document issued only for member of cooperative settlement.

Edited November 23, 2015 by kris95

[Kenny202]

There is no problem with owning land without a chanote. I bought 3/4 rai in our village and put a house on it then bought the 1/2 rai next to us , all from the old guy who lives down behind us.

The paperwork to obtain the chanote will happen as government goes from village to village and does the necessary steps as needed to verify the owner. Ours is in the process and will be complete within the next 6 months.

how long will it have taken from the time they surveyed Ur land to the time u get the chanote in Ur hand? This will vary from provinces no dount

I would say around 12 months .. but in saying that ' who knows ..... as you said it may depend on location.

The point being .... you can buy land without the chanote , then submit to obtain the chanote at the local office.

"submit" for us was slip the surveyed 5000 baht for a quick survey. Is there another way?

[amerasianex]

I've been here for a long time. And seen tho done severs times. With a sales contract and four signatures its a done deal. Unless of ours the one selling does not own the property

That also happens alot. People like to sell stuff that does not belong to them. And they will lie and do Li often......No recourse after the money is gone.. It's gone

[Kenny202]

We just rang the lands office and they said no problem if all parties agree selling non chanote land here to locals or non locals. It needs to be signed off by the Poh Jai ban etc and we will draw up a proper document where the buyer will acknowledge they understand the land has no title.

That was the easy bit. Finding an idiot to buy it will be a different story.

[PattayaPhom]

We just rang the lands office and they said no problem if all parties agree selling non chanote land here to locals or non locals. It needs to be signed off by the Poh Jai ban etc and we will draw up a proper document where the buyer will acknowledge they understand the land has no title.

That was the easy bit. Finding an idiot to buy it will be a different story.

Dress it up as you please but you own nothing so can sell nothing. What if someone just moved in on said land, what recourse would you have to evict them...absolutely none as you do not own it.

[johnmcc6]

You cannot sell the land but you can sell what is on it. The first thing to get is the blue book showing your right to live there. Many rural properties are sold this way. Yes the government can take back the property any time but unless there is some reason to do so it is highly unlikely this will ever happen. Any country can take your land under eminent domain if they need it for a road or such. As you already know once surveyed a chanote will eventuall arrive. Most village dwellers know this and buy and sell land all the time supposedly for the value of what is on it. What price a fruit tree? I would think if land near you with chanote is selling for the same kind of money you are after it would be very hard to sell it. In my area many people buy non chanote land knowing it will one day arrive and the value will greatly increase. I am happy to be proven wrong but I have seen several such transactions a couple of times even involving the local government. As said before you can always lease the land with several 30 year terms. As learned in Puket each lease must be a seperate lease with no mention of options for renewal rather each subsquent lease to start on the day of the previous lease expiring. Properly drawn up contract should be fine for a cash sale.

[johnmcc6]

I failed to mention the value of the land increases as it becomes security for any bank loans. One can build on this land without going through local authorities. This is why we see so many handyman builds in many country areas. Once a title is approved however any structure must come up to local government approval so it is best to do things correctly in the first place to avoid future hassles. Our little plots blue book is in the wifes name of course. By the time she is my age it will be very much an up market suburb of the city and will serve her very well in retirement. In the meantime it is a delightful weekender in the mountains keeping me fit with the gardens.