Turkey 'shoots down' warplane near Syrian-Turkish border

[NeverSure]

-snip-

I doubt Putin actually wants to maintain a massive long term ground presence in Syria - "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

Never get involved in a war with a guerrilla army on its own soil. I know of no case in history where a guerrilla army was defeated on its own soil.

It's out of uniform and can blend with the population. The population will feed and house it. It is indistinguishable from the general population. It knows the territory a lot better. It has something it thinks is worth dying for. The great military that attacked it is afraid of collateral damage and has to pull its punches.

Russia already got its butt kicked in Afghanistan. Does it need another lesson?

The "mighty" US Military hasn't won any of these wars in SE Asia or the ME. My definition of winning includes a surrender and a change in behavior such as what happened with Germany and Japan in WWII. It just doesn't happen. The world powers don't seem to be able to learn this.

The last war the allies won outright was as a result of bombing Germany and Japan mercilessly without regard for civilians or any other damage. The citizens were held responsible for their combatants and governments and they died too. When the war was over it was over and the world began to settle down again.

That isn't going to happen this time due to the rules of war at present, and due to the guerrilla nature of the opposition.

Cheers.

[Andaman Al]

-snip-

I doubt Putin actually wants to maintain a massive long term ground presence in Syria - "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

Never get involved in a war with a guerrilla army on its own soil. I know of no case in history where a guerrilla army was defeated on its own soil.

It's out of uniform and can blend with the population. The population will feed and house it. It is indistinguishable from the general population. It knows the territory a lot better. It has something it thinks is worth dying for. The great military that attacked it is afraid of collateral damage and has to pull its punches.

Russia already got its butt kicked in Afghanistan. Does it need another lesson?

The "mighty" US Military hasn't won any of these wars in SE Asia or the ME. My definition of winning includes a surrender and a change in behavior such as what happened with Germany and Japan in WWII. It just doesn't happen. The world powers don't seem to be able to learn this.

The last war the allies won outright was as a result of bombing Germany and Japan mercilessly without regard for civilians or any other damage. The citizens were held responsible for their combatants and governments and they died too. When the war was over it was over and the world began to settle down again.

That isn't going to happen this time due to the rules of war at present, and due to the guerrilla nature of the opposition.

Cheers.

Neversure

I agree with what you say with one exception. Syria and Assad was never a problem to anyone until the west decided it was valuable territory that stood as a buffer on the way to Iran. Syria was a moderate, beautiful country and Assad was/is not an extremist Muslim, far from it. Sure, he had to be hard at certain times but once again the west have grossly screwed up the status quo. We learned nothing from Iraq. The normal 'people' will not support the rebels and terrorists as you suggest apart from complying through fear. Their once content lives are now destroyed and there is not a single family that has not lost loved ones in this ridiculous and blatant political war.

[Publicus]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic.

Erdogan's problem is that he is wound severely Muslim tight. Putin doesn't look Erdogan in the eyes cause it would make Putin shit his pants.

Russian fighter jets have been trolling the Turkey-Syria border for months, unnecessarily. There hasn't ever been any need of Russia to bomb at the border with Turkey. So now somebody went ahead and whacked Putin in the nose. This was not a spur of the moment hit by the Turkey Air Force. It was a lightning strike, i.e., the pilot had standing orders to take down a Russian AF fighter. And it turned out to be a turkey shoot in which the Russian hunter got bit.

Putin's problem in this immediate circumstance is that he doesn't have the balls to retaliate against a Turkish Air Force fighter jet. Putin would instead bomb all life out of Turkman civilian women and children who live decidedly inside the Syrian border there. Ask Chechans in Grozny.

Putin calls this shootdown and kill a "stab in the back." It is in fact a simple kick in the balls. Erdogan had warned Putin many times before this to lay off the border areas where ethnic Turkmen are fighting Assad. Erdogan wants Assad out too. Erdogan warned Putin not to test their positive relationship. Putin persisted. So he got a good swift kick.

Nato can respond in a number of ways to Putin taking military action against a member nation if that's is what Putin might choose. And that is the bottom line in this, i.e., Turkey is a member of Nato. One thing Putin knows is that he doesn't want that period.

We won't see any news footage the next few days of Putin walking anywhere.

[Andaman Al]

A strike against a member of NATO is seen as being a strike against them all, UNLESS the member of NATO is the aggressor. So the legal loophole is there for the rest of NATO to say sorry Erdogan you are on your own mate. Lets see!

[Lukecan]

Russia is probably the most overrated country in the internet boards. Their military budget is mere 60 billion $ compared to 500 $ of the US. Heck even Turkeys military budget is 30 billion dollars. Their military technology is not that advanced either. They're nothing but hype. Yeah sure, they have nukes, but can they use it, especially on a country which shares a border with the EU? The only undisputed super power is the US.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Lukecan

[Richard W]

I wonder how you do have Mr Bin Laden senior around to the ranch for a BBQ and one minute discuss the next big oil shipment and the next say 'i am going to hunt your eldest son down in a cave in Afghanistan and blow him to bits'. One side of the story seems out of kilter with the other, and George W never caught Osama and Mr Bin Laden senior continued (continues) to do business with the Bush family - Go figure . Politicians and Presidents will sell their soul to have the voting population believe whatever they want them to believe.

You've got the family muddled up. Osama bin Laden's father, Mohammed, who was born in 1908, was killed in a plane crash in 1967. (The family seems to have had a lot of mishaps with planes.) His mother was his father's 11th wife, so Osama was very much a younger son anyway. This Mohammed had 77 children.

[Publicus]

About time. Hope Russia listens to issues regarding cross border incursions.

If that radar is right. They were not in the air space for the 5 mins they said that had given warnings about. Not sure of cruise speed but a low altitude max is 1400 kph.

they probably flew over that stretch of land more than two or three times

same thing happened with a Syrian aircraft last year:

March 2014 Turkish shootdown of a Syrian aircraft

On 23 March 2014, Turkish fighter jets shot down a Syrian warplane. The Syrian Arab Republic claims that its aircraft was in Syrian airspace on a mission to attack rebel held areas in the city of Latakia when it was shot down by Turkey in an act of "blatant aggression." The Syrian pilot successfully ejected from the aircraft as the aircraft was being shot down.^[41] Turkish Prime Minister Erdoğan stated that Turkish F-16s shot down the aircraft for violating Turkish airspace and said that the Turkish "response will be heavy if you violate our airspace."^[42]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian%E2%80%93Turkish_border_clashes_%282012%E2%80%9314%29#March_2014_Turkish_shootdown_of_a_Syrian_aircraft

From the second quote in the post: On 23 March 2014, Turkish fighter jets shot down a Syrian warplane.

That was a border violation too.

So it is two times now the US F-16 in the Turkey Air Force have blasted Russian Air Force fighter jets out of the sky. In the 2014 shootdown it was a Russian fighter sold to the Syrian AF piloted by a Syrian pilot no doubt trained by the Russian Air Force.

Yesterday it was an F-16 in the Turkey AF that destroyed a Russian jet piloted by a Russian AF crackerjack. News reports in the US at the moment cite Pentagon surveillance saying the Russian jet was in Turkey air space for 2 to 3 seconds. So it is unmistakable Erdogan and the Turkish military had decided to stand up to Putin as no one in the ME and area had ever done.

The Syrian Air Force is comprised of several variations of the Russian MiG Air Force fighters and also the Su-22 and the Su-24. (Further good news is that Beijing buys Su fighters from Russia too.)

Btw, the Turkman fighters who gathered around the shot down Russian pilots have changed their original account of how the Russian Air Force guy died. The Turkmen initially said they shot the Russian pilot as he descended hanging from his chute. Now the Turkmen fighters are saying the pilot was dead when he hit the ground. Sounds like six of one and a half dozen of the other.

First time in a very long time Putin has had to be treated for a nosebleed complicated by sore nuts. This is Putin's welcome to being the tough guy who can kick arse in the ME to solve everything in no time at all.

Note also Turkey (and Nato) control the Dardanelles Strait which if closed off to the Russian Navy (and shipping) turns it into ducks on a pond all the way back to Crimea. It would close Putin's access to his naval base in Syria too. One never knows about such things, especially if Putin decides to escalate which he could do against Turkey in any of several ways without crossing over in to Turkey. Over the horizon missiles among other means to retaliate.

Erdogan simultaneously made Francois Hollande's visit tomorrow with Putin in Moscow a lot tougher for Hollande to try to balance, given France is active in Nato again but wants Russia in Syria to join up with France. Now Hollande has made his own war to fight in the ME.

[simple1]

For a diplomatic start:

1) Syria should tell Turkey no longer more to fly into Syrian Airspace. If they do Russian Airforce will get the green light to shot down any Turkish plane flying over Syria. Iraq might extend as well the no fly zone for any Turkish jets into Iraqi airspace.

2) All Russian tourists to be evacuated from Turkey and a total ban of Russian tourists from entering Turkey for the next 2 years. Stop issuing visas to any Turks to Russia.

3) Recall the Russian Ambassador from Turkey.

4) Ban on all imports from Turkey to Russia.

5) Develop Russian cooperation with Armenia.

6) Pull out all Russian investment from Turkey.

In today's world Turkey is a nobody and they keep sending 10,000 migrants a day into Europe. Turkey is not a partner of Europe but the biggest enemy Europe can have.

If I were Russia, I would even go further and have airstrikes inside Turkey and forget NATO, they would not go into war with Russia for another Muslim country where the president itself is a Islamic fanatic. If Ataturk would be still alive he would have hanged that Sultan Erdogan bastaxd himself.

Sounds like a recipe for further escalating things rather than a finding a diplomatic solution.

Turkey is hardly a nobody. Location location location. and masses of refugees that would otherwise head to Europe, just to name two factors.

What would Russia gain at this time by opening yet another front?

Turkey has been playing a dirty game there for too long and particularly Erdogan has been extremely annoying in the past years with his Islamist agenda. He needs to be taught a lesson, I hope the Russians can do it without risk for stability.

Yes, I think Russia will ignore Turkey proper and instead annihilate the Turkmen militia in the region and maybe seize future opportunities to shoot down Turkish airplanes bombing Kurds.

I think Turkey will allow the militia to retreat inside Turkey, which could possibly force Russia to station ground troops there to keep the Turkey border region under control, otherwise the militias could just attack from Syria.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if Russia was controlling that border, because Turkey still lets many terrorists through to join rebel islamist ranks in Syria.

I don't think anyone, neither the Russians nor the coalition, really trusts Turkey or supports its actions. The Turks are simply in a position to do as they will, as long as its not overly obvious. Both the West (EU/NATO) and the Russians stand to lose too much by messing relationship with Turkey, which is why I think there will be nothing major. Then again, when you got the Middle East, Erdogan and Putin on the same OP, "volatile" is a mild way to describe things.

Concur Russia will not cease attacking in the area and Turkey allowing retreat into its territory. As for intercepting Turkish planes - maybe, but probably not as in actually shooting down, there are several ways to send a message without going that far. Russian ground troops on the border? Unlikely. Too much manpower, to much of an easy target for whomever. Also, this would further hurt Assad's already minimal prestige, so depends on which angle he is played.

I doubt Putin actually wants to maintain a massive long term ground presence in Syria - "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

When Russia commenced the bombing campaign in Syria Putin stated would take about 3 / 6 months to effectively destroy Daesh capabilities and then pull out. As you know the Syrian / Turkish border is 822 kilometers, agree Russia will not invest the resources to effectively close the border regions. Also agree no significant change to existing relations will occur as a result of this incident - realpolitik rules!

Is this all a bit embarrassing for Russia as this incident clearly exposes the fact, despite it's claims to the contrary, Russia is bombing non Daesh targets.

[Publicus]

A strike against a member of NATO is seen as being a strike against them all, UNLESS the member of NATO is the aggressor. So the legal loophole is there for the rest of NATO to say sorry Erdogan you are on your own mate. Lets see!

Some people can jump pretty high to grab a lot of air.

Surveillance, reconnaissance and intel of Turkey, Nato, the Pentagon have numerous instances of Russian fighter jets crossing over into Turkey air space. The areas of the Turkey-Syria border where ethnic Turkmen are fighting Assad's forces are being unnecessarily and provocatively hit by Putin's air force fighter jets.

Erdogan wants Assad out too. Putin came into the fight to save Assad whose armed forces had been routed by rebels throughout the year, since beginning late last year, to include Turkmen fighters.

Putin's original design to kill off rebels supported by the US to present the US with a choice between Daesh or Assad was blown to smithereens by Daesh criminals who hit the Russian airliner.

Hollande is also confused. France gets what it calls its 9/11 and Hollande runs to Putin for support and protection. Cameron isn't so clear minded or better than Blair either. Blair ran to GW Bush while Cameron is running to Hollande who's running to Putin.

Prez Obama today said Turkey has the right to defend its borders in this chaos. Putin is messing with Nato and he does so at his own great risk. Hollande will end his global warpath trekking by having dinner with Angela Merkel in Berlin. Maybe the German chancellor can help get the French president to clear his head.

Mass grave of Turkmen fighters killed by ISIS found near Kirkuk

http://rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/15032015

[jaidam]

When Russia commenced the bombing campaign in Syria Putin stated would take about 3 / 6 months to effectively destroy Daesh capabilities and then pull out. As you know the Syrian / Turkish border is 822 kilometers, agree Russia will not invest the resources to effectively close the border regions. Also agree no significant change to existing relations will occur as a result of this incident - realpolitik rules!

Is this all a bit embarrassing for Russia as this incident clearly exposes the fact, despite it's claims to the contrary, Russia is bombing non Daesh targets.

quote "despite it's claims to the contrary, Russia is bombing non Daesh targets."

I watched a video yesterday of the Russian pilot's last minutes on earth surrounded by Arabic speaking savages chanting Allahu Akbar while murdering the pilots. You call these monsters "non Daesh targets" and are clearly fond of them. I call them cockroaches that need a good stamping on. Luckily Putin is wearing a nice pair of clod-hoppers, go Vlad!

[slipperylobster]

Russia is probably the most overrated country in the internet boards. Their military budget is mere 60 billion $ compared to 500 $ of the US. Heck even Turkeys military budget is 30 billion dollars. Their military technology is not that advanced either. They're nothing but hype. Yeah sure, they have nukes, but can they use it, especially on a country which shares a border with the EU? The only undisputed super power is the US.

...a paper"less" tiger.

Can't fight a sustained war on chewing gum and tobacco.

[Scott]

Some off-topic and inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.

Please stay on topic and treat other posters in a civil manner.

[webfact]

Turkey downing of Russian plane “a stab in the back” says President Vladimir Putin



MOSCOW: -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said the Russian plane which was shot down had in no way threatened Turkey but was doing its duty in the fight against militants in Syria.

He was speaking ahead of a meeting with King of Abdullah of Jordan in the Black Sea resort of Sochi.

“Today’s loss is linked to a stab in the back delivered to us by accomplices of terrorists. We will carefully analyse what has happened. And today’s tragic event will have serious implications for Russian – Turkish relations,” he said.

Turkey has warned Russia in the past about the consequences of any incursions into its airspace and its right to react.

“We have never been a country which had designs against another country. But everyone should know that Turkey has the right to respond if its airspace is violated despite repeated warnings,” Turkey’s Prime Minister Ahmet Davutolgu told reporters.


-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2015-11-25

[slipperylobster]

Russia is probably the most overrated country in the internet boards. Their military budget is mere 60 billion $ compared to 500 $ of the US. Heck even Turkeys military budget is 30 billion dollars. Their military technology is not that advanced either. They're nothing but hype. Yeah sure, they have nukes, but can they use it, especially on a country which shares a border with the EU? The only undisputed super power is the US.

...a paper"less" tiger.

Can't fight a sustained war on chewing gum and tobacco.

Must also point out that they are not very savvy with their TacAir Command....having lost not only a fighter, but a Chopper as well (on the same day). This, in addition to the downing of their commercial aircraft just last month. There are only a limited amount of Russian aircraft in the sky (around that area)....losing 3 is not very reassuring.

Dropping out of the skies...like flies. I do hope they come to their senses and join a Euro/American cooalition...they just don't have the savvy to go it alone.

Edited November 24, 2015 by slipperylobster

[Chicog]

I agree with what you say with one exception. Syria and Assad was never a problem to anyone until the west decided it was valuable territory that stood as a buffer on the way to Iran. Syria was a moderate, beautiful country and Assad was/is not an extremist Muslim, far from it. Sure, he had to be hard at certain times but once again the west have grossly screwed up the status quo. We learned nothing from Iraq. The normal 'people' will not support the rebels and terrorists as you suggest apart from complying through fear. Their once content lives are now destroyed and there is not a single family that has not lost loved ones in this ridiculous and blatant political war.

"He had to be hard at certain times"?

Bombing and executing his own people goes slightly beyond the bounds of "having to be hard".

Just try and keep in mind that he was NEVER properly elected, and his father executed and bulldozed over 30,000 Syrians to maintain his hold on power (a number he has comfortably exceeded).

What are you people on?

Edited November 24, 2015 by Chicog

[slipperylobster]

A strike against a member of NATO is seen as being a strike against them all, UNLESS the member of NATO is the aggressor. So the legal loophole is there for the rest of NATO to say sorry Erdogan you are on your own mate. Lets see!

Horrible error in judgement by the Russian Aircraft/TacOPs.....

We can see evidence of violating NATO airspace. They were warned 10 times, and then dealt with.

As much as I would like to see Russia helping out the world (lol), they fail to play by their own rules (as in the Malaysian Airlines shootdown). Now lets see how they justify their violation of airspace. They would do the same, without a doubt, for any NATO aircraft flying over the Kremlin.

Yes Putin...learn the rules...before sending your pilots on suicide missions.

I am certain, without a doubt, that there are people in Ankara who are tracking your aircraft. and who report to the NATO alliance.

Edited November 25, 2015 by slipperylobster

[MobileContent]

@Andaman

Turkey has plenty of options to buy natural gas from unlike Europe, we can get it from Azerbaijan or Iran. The reason why we're buying the bulk from Russia is because of the competitive prices they've been offering lately. Regarding Russian tourists, where will they go? Egypt? They can't afford Pattaya anymore because of the strong baht, lucky for them Turkish Lira weakened in a similar way to the ruble.

West is winning the war against Putin, Ruble devalued from 30 to 70 without US lifting their arm, with only very basic sanctions. Russian economy is dependant on commodities, and they're out of luck, commodity prices are at the bottom. They're expected to be in recession for at least 3 more years, and losing Turkey as a customer will screw them more up. What's holding them together right now is the patriotic feelings, but they've gotten 50% more poorer compared to last year.

Well good luck with buying anything from Iran if you are an ex-customer of Russia. Russian tourists will go wherever they can but they will not go where their country prohibits them to go Yes Russia needs to generate more cash from resources, I guess a few well placed nukes now will extend the Russian border considerably They will stop the refugees coming into Europe.

Whatever your arguments, Turkey has made a big big mistake and whether Putin decides to act now whilst in rage or if he believes revenge is a dish best served cold, mark his words on the interview. Turkey will pay for what happened today. I hope that alongside side his intentions it further motivates him to eradicate ISIS from the face of the planet.

If Carson and Trump drop out is it too late to get Putin a slot? I have heard birth certificates are no issue

@Lukecan

The Turkish lira has lost 30% over the last one year with an inflation of 8% one of the highest inflation in the world.

Putin announces a travel warning to Turkey already and Turkey's tourism industry will be badly hit once the high season starts again. As of last night Russian tour operators are suspending all tours and hotel bookings to Turkey. Last year tourism arrivals was over 51 million and this year it will be around 42.5 million.

The Turkish travel industry is any way in a mess due to the bombings but you can be sure that a lot of Turks will loose their jobs when the high season starts again in April - May 2016. If the Brits and Germans decide that Turkey is not save more, due to Turkey's support of ISIS and other terror organisations, hundreds of thousands Turks can return to their Anatolian villages and raise goats.

Some Russian lawmakers are now putting a bill forward to ban all flights between Russia and Turkey which would be bad for Turkish Airlines.

http://www.todayszaman.com/business_turkish-tourism-to-be-first-victim-of-russian-jet-crisis_405178.html

Now with Turkey and Egypt off the lists for Russians, I guess Greece might be a big winner next year.

The EU, the US and Russia are not the losers in this conflict but it will be the Turks. Their is a reason why Turkey will never become a member of the EU, even if they just appointed yesterday a Minister for EU affairs.

Erdogan is the Sultan of Turkey, his son in law is the Energy Minister, his son runs a shipping company and is directly involved in the smuggling of oil from ISIS territory. Sümeyye Erdogan his daughter runs a secret ISIS hospital inside Turkey.

It is just a matter of time before the first Turkish jets get popped off over Northern Syria and NATO will do nothing. Why? Turkey is a fanatic Islamic country (excluding Istanbul) which supports terrorism (ISIS and Al Nusra Front).

[craigt3365]

Neversure

I agree with what you say with one exception. Syria and Assad was never a problem to anyone until the west decided it was valuable territory that stood as a buffer on the way to Iran. Syria was a moderate, beautiful country and Assad was/is not an extremist Muslim, far from it. Sure, he had to be hard at certain times but once again the west have grossly screwed up the status quo. We learned nothing from Iraq. The normal 'people' will not support the rebels and terrorists as you suggest apart from complying through fear. Their once content lives are now destroyed and there is not a single family that has not lost loved ones in this ridiculous and blatant political war.

Syria has a long history of human rights abuses against it's people. From the Assad family, as they've been the dictators for years. The start of the current troubles arise from Syria citizens saying "enough!". Then the brutal crackdown by the government, with many civilian causalities. Including the use of chemical weapons. This wasn't started by the West. But foreign countries, especially Iran, are making things worse.

[craigt3365]

quote "despite it's claims to the contrary, Russia is bombing non Daesh targets."

I watched a video yesterday of the Russian pilot's last minutes on earth surrounded by Arabic speaking savages chanting Allahu Akbar while murdering the pilots. You call these monsters "non Daesh targets" and are clearly fond of them. I call them cockroaches that need a good stamping on. Luckily Putin is wearing a nice pair of clod-hoppers, go Vlad!

Russia has been bombing non-IS targets on the border with Turkey. It's a mess there, but should not have been a target by Russian airplanes. Putin bombed them just because they are against Assad. A noble cause IMHO. Assad is a brutal dictator who is the root cause of these problems.

I hear what you are saying, but these rebels were happy they shot down a plane that's been killing their soldiers for a long time. I don't agree with what they did, but Russia should not have been there in the first place. They created this problem. Without Russia bombing an area they shouldn't have, this would not have happened. And I'm sure they were inside Syria. Even if just for a few moments. They were warned....

[Mosha]

I was watching BBC about 15 minutes ago. They said that that sector of air space juts out into Syria. That seems odd that 1 country can claim the air space over a neighbour.

[craigt3365]

Not the first time Russia war planes invaded Turkish air space. They were warned.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/05/middleeast/syria-russia-airstrikes/

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said Monday the violation was "a mistake," according to the semiofficial Anadolu news agency.

"Our foreign minister called the Russian foreign minister and said clearly that this should not be repeated," Anadolu quoted Davutoglu as saying in an interview with Haberturk TV. "The information from Russia this morning was that this happened by mistake and that they respect Turkish borders and that it will not be repeated.

"Whoever violates our airspace, our rules of engagement are clear," he said. "We will warn whoever violates our borders and our airspace in a friendly manner. This country can be whichever and Russia is our neighbor, our friend. In this way, there is no tension between Turkey and Russia. The Syria issue is not a Turkish-Russian crisis," he said.

[slipperylobster]

I was watching BBC about 15 minutes ago. They said that that sector of air space juts out into Syria. That seems odd that 1 country can claim the air space over a neighbour.

No country I know of has a straight line ....even the USA and Canadian border juts out to and fro.

Pilots have (necessarily) maps, and should have ATC/TacOps when flying armed over borders. This was deliberate.

[slipperylobster]

I was watching BBC about 15 minutes ago. They said that that sector of air space juts out into Syria. That seems odd that 1 country can claim the air space over a neighbour.

Foreign Armed aircraft flying over Turkish airspace should have permission...period.

Either the pilots did not care, and decided to do something stupid (warned 10 times !!!)

Or they were misled by their TacOps/ATC that it was perfectly alright to violate NATO airspace.

No excuse. They should have been briefed...and their leadership should study maps. Irregular borders are a common occurrence...and care should of been taken. This was not an unarmed civilian airliner and this was not the Ukraine.

They knew better...tested the limit...and took the hit. At least they were warned...more than the Russians do for civilian airliners.

Edited November 25, 2015 by slipperylobster

[mpa]

Border violation? What a joke.

Turkey violates Greek air space massively every single day 30 years now.

[slipperylobster]

Border violation? What a joke.

Turkey violates Greek air space massively every single day 30 years now.

All borders are routinely tested.....I think we all know that.

However...this is a "Hot" border....with live weapons....

Russia and the USA have always tested each other...but pull back when warned away.

Big difference...here. Dropping bombs in Syria ..and then (evidently) avoiding anti aircraft fire from the ground by utilizing a convenient nearby border......is obviously a tactic of fools

Edited November 25, 2015 by slipperylobster

[simple1]

When Russia commenced the bombing campaign in Syria Putin stated would take about 3 / 6 months to effectively destroy Daesh capabilities and then pull out. As you know the Syrian / Turkish border is 822 kilometers, agree Russia will not invest the resources to effectively close the border regions. Also agree no significant change to existing relations will occur as a result of this incident - realpolitik rules!

Is this all a bit embarrassing for Russia as this incident clearly exposes the fact, despite it's claims to the contrary, Russia is bombing non Daesh targets.

quote "despite it's claims to the contrary, Russia is bombing non Daesh targets."

I watched a video yesterday of the Russian pilot's last minutes on earth surrounded by Arabic speaking savages chanting Allahu Akbar while murdering the pilots. You call these monsters "non Daesh targets" and are clearly fond of them. I call them cockroaches that need a good stamping on. Luckily Putin is wearing a nice pair of clod-hoppers, go Vlad!

Don't be ridiculous by claiming I support or sympathise with cold bloodied murder, never have, never will do so. On the other hand, in common with some others, you have a history on this forum of particular nasty posts, including advocating war crimes. You may well be proud of the content you post, but IMHO you have no moral / ethical standing.

Edited November 25, 2015 by simple1

[slipperylobster]

It may occur (rightly..or wrongly), that there is some strategy behind all of this...on the NATO side.

Putin has decided to join Iran...and has tried to show their bravado. This was popular for a few days, but you can see, that NATO has a decisive advantage...(knowledge, authority and use of airspace). Perhaps we just let them fail on their own. Perhaps NATO intel gave "signals" that it was ok to protect NATO borders from clumsy bears. Clearly, Putin must now rethink his strategy. It is only he...and his bedmate (Iran)...neither one a huge threat. Russia is financially inept and their equipment is probably held together by Bondo.

France is heading that way....more so than ever...backed by the USA. It won't be long before the other victims of Mass Shootings (by terrorists) will be heading that way. Belgium? Holland? Germany? The Brits might side up with Russia though..(kidding).

After all..its what y'all signed up for. Could this be the New Order...everyone has been clamoring about? Russian and Iran....let them call the shots...and lets see ...

I think, clearly....Mr Putin must join the coalition...or suffer more of the same embarassment.

Edited November 25, 2015 by slipperylobster

[Andaman Al]

I agree with what you say with one exception. Syria and Assad was never a problem to anyone until the west decided it was valuable territory that stood as a buffer on the way to Iran. Syria was a moderate, beautiful country and Assad was/is not an extremist Muslim, far from it. Sure, he had to be hard at certain times but once again the west have grossly screwed up the status quo. We learned nothing from Iraq. The normal 'people' will not support the rebels and terrorists as you suggest apart from complying through fear. Their once content lives are now destroyed and there is not a single family that has not lost loved ones in this ridiculous and blatant political war.

"He had to be hard at certain times"?

Bombing and executing his own people goes slightly beyond the bounds of "having to be hard".

Just try and keep in mind that he was NEVER properly elected, and his father executed and bulldozed over 30,000 Syrians to maintain his hold on power (a number he has comfortably exceeded).

What are you people on?

Chicog

You are normally far better informed than your post above would suggest.

Hafez Al Assad was not the man that you suggest at all. Yes he had to quell a rebellion of the 'Muslim Brotherhood' which would have threatened any form of peace in the Middle East and this resulted in a conflict in the North. The Assads are Alawites and as such Syria was a very progressive place. The only difficulty Hafez Al Assad gace the US and Israel was he was a very skilled and challenging negotiator. Funny what you say above falls into line with the recent propaganda started to make the Assad regime look bad.

Have a read of the following transcript of the breaking news from CNN on the death of Hafez Al Assad just moments after his death.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0006/10/bn.01.html

The man described in this transcript of the news video (available to purchase) is not the monster you describe but someone loved by his people and admired throughout the Middle East as the 'Last Arab Champion'. There are laudatory comments made about him by all the people interviewed including US Ambassadors. President Clinton and Sec Albright saw him as a warm approachable man who was an effective leader. All these words straight from the US and straight off the CNN news item. Funny you can't take these words back when you try to demonise people later.

As for the Son Bashir Assad, he has categorically denied ever using any form of chemical weapons against his people and all the evidence today points towards false flag ops by the CIA and Mossad in a bid to turn world opinion against Assad. What I find difficult to understand is that you are spouting off the same propaganda rubbish when you are normally quite on the mark with your assessment of things. There was nothing adverse in the press prior to 2011 about Assad. He was tough like his father in that he insisted that Israel withdraw from the occupied territories and he was a supporter of the Palestinians. Still today 75-80% of the people in Syria support Assad. Assad gassing and bombing his own?? Nope, that is not true. He has become an obstacle in the Middle East getting in the way of the changing US foreign policy. This is the nation we were glad joined the coalition against Saddam, the nation we have hardly heard a peep from until in 2011 certain leaderships decided they needed to plant a more co-operative puppet on the throne of Syria.

As for the Assad's being Dictators, the Father was the leader of bloodless coup and on his death the son took over as the nation expected. The only people Hafez Assad and Bashir Assad have had to deal with within their own country have been the radical Muslim elements such as the Muslim Brotherhood, but in a world where the west has now manufactured an extremist rebel army to do it's dirty work, we dont want people that will stand and fight against the radicals. Many in the Middle East do not care for your idea of democracy, proven overwhelmingly I think in Iraq. As for what I am on? Coffee and morning toast.

[oneday]

Let's see...how could Russia have prevented this.

1. Get permission from Turkey to overfly their country near the Syrian border.

2. Pay attention to warnings not to overfly Turkey's airspace without permission and coordination.

3. Stay away from Turkey's airspace

4. Join NATO or...

5. Pack up and go home...bullies aren't wanted.

Putin is directly responsible for his pilots death. Congratulations Putin! How does it feel to sacrifice a real live human pawn.

[Mosha]

6 Stop bombing the good terrorists.