Buying a house without a work permit

[Bitterend]

Hello,

I have been renting my current house in Bangkok for the past year, our landlord now wants to sell it and since we're perfectly fine here we are thinking about buying it.

The problems are:

- my Thai wife doesn't work

- I've been working as a freelancer for the last 5 years, so I don't have a work permit.

We married in 2012 (both in France and Thailand) and I have a visa O/Thai wife.

I want to buy this house on her name of course, but since I am the only financial guarantee, all banks we tried so far refused to give us a credit because I don't have a work permit.

I earn about 140k baht/month for a few years now, and we would like a credit of at least 80% of the house value (at least 2.9 millions baht).

Have some of you heard about similar situations, and do you think there is a chance we can buy this house considering we can't pay it at once?

Thanks in advance!

[lopburi3]

I suspect there is no trusted member in her family that could buy home (perhaps with a lease agreement)? Perhaps with wife providing the cash for down payment as a personal loan?

[Bitterend]

I suspect there is no trusted member in her family that could buy home (perhaps with a lease agreement)? Perhaps with wife providing the cash for down payment as a personal loan?

Of course there is not

A personal loan would never reach the amount we need (about 3 million bahts).

We asked "friends" of hers that run small clothes/shoes stalls in shopping galleries such as BigC/Central that manage to have decent incomes to pretend that my wife runs their stall when a bank credit manager will come to check if she really works here, but nobody wants to help us.

Except being the friend of a credit manager, I don't see what we can do!

[casualbiker]

Your wife could get a job!

[Bitterend]

Your wife could get a job!

She needs to earn at least 35 000 baht/month to get the credit, sounds quite hopeless with a high school diploma!

[lopburi3]

The personal loan would be from your wife to family member for the 20% down payment - you would then have them buy the house based on them having employment and income and you would provide the funds for monthly payments having a lease agreement to protect yourself from them taking over the house.

[casualbiker]

Well no job and it's definitely hopeless. What about you paying her a salary. And she comes up with an idea for a job. You mentioned the "friends" having the sales stalls. What's stopping your wife doing something similar? You have to think outside the box!

[Bitterend]

The personal loan would be from your wife to family member for the 20% down payment - you would then have them buy the house based on them having employment and income and you would provide the funds for monthly payments having a lease agreement to protect yourself from them taking over the house.

She has only one sister that, I let you guess it, is not employed

[lopburi3]

Although it may not be what you want - renting in Thailand is not such a bad option - you can move if/when required (almost impossible to sell if neighbor becomes a disco). And rentals here are quite reasonable.

Most board member will always advise renting as protection from divorce also.

[Bitterend]

Well no job and it's definitely hopeless. What about you paying her a salary. And she comes up with an idea for a job. You mentioned the "friends" having the sales stalls. What's stopping your wife doing something similar? You have to think outside the box!

Of course she could do that, the only problem is that the landlord wants to sell the house by January, we have the priority since we rent it and live inside at the moment, but if all banks refuse us the credit then we're **ed and will have to leave (other persons are interested in buying the house).

Opening a clothes stall now would be of no utility since banks ask at least 6 months of incomes (all the incomes in her bank statement show they come from bank tranfers every month, actually MY bank...).

Edited November 25, 2015 by Bitterend

[casualbiker]

Well there ya go then!

[Bitterend]

Leaving the house is not a solution, the intent is to buy it.

I don't want to rent another house cause the one where we currently live is a great deal, houses like that are at about 30,000 baht/month, more that we would pay every month with a loan!

I know I might have no choice, but I'm here to see if somebody knows a solution or at least has some advices about what we could do to get a loan.

[mcfish]

Although it may not be what you want - renting in Thailand is not such a bad option - you can move if/when required (almost impossible to sell if neighbor becomes a disco). And rentals here are quite reasonable.

Most board member will always advise renting as protection from divorce also.

"Most board member will always advise renting"

And that would be because most people don't have a lazy 3-10 mill sitting around in cash and you are aware that farang can not get finance in Thailand right? Buying property here is cash only and even in the west there are very few punters with that amount of cash laying around. How many do you know?

I'm surprised at your post actually.

[lopburi3]

Where exactly is it that you live? Do you really need to live there?

In my area of Bangkok a 3 bedroom house in normal 80 wah compound runs about 10k per month on short term lease and price has not increased in decades.

We are trying to answer you as best we can - and provide options that you might consider. You already know you do not qualify for loan so the options are not really good. But they might be a good alternative.

[Bitterend]

Where exactly is it that you live? Do you really need to live there?

In my area of Bangkok a 3 bedroom house in normal 80 wah compound runs about 10k per month on short term lease and price has not increased in decades.

We are trying to answer you as best we can - and provide options that you might consider. You already know you do not qualify for loan so the options are not really good. But they might be a good alternative.

I live in the Rama 2 area. The house is in a secured mooban with swimming-pool and other commodities, believe me 25k to 30k baht/month is the average price for a similar house in a similar mooban. Since I am 24h/day at home, I really appreciate the peacefulness and comfort I have here and I know it would be hard to find something similar at a reasonable price. We have all shopping malls with 3 minutes drive (Big C, Lotus, Central Plaza, Holland Beer and so on...), this is another reason why I don't want to leave.

Last point, we have 6 cats and most landlords/moobans wouldn't accept it, even if they have their own hut they need to run everyday, I know from a previous experience how difficult it is to find neighbours accepting that, and here everything's fine where we live.

Now I guess you understand why we don't want to leave, I hear what you say about renting another house and I thank you for your advices.

I know I don't qualify for a loan, but I know that in some rare cases, farangs without a work permit have been able to finally get a loan (from a forum topic in Thai my wife found on the Internet, dating back from 2008...). The problem is that there was no real solution in the topic, the one who managed to get a loan tried 9 banks and the last one accepted it. Such information doesn't help me much though

[digitalchromakey]

Where exactly is it that you live? Do you really need to live there?

In my area of Bangkok a 3 bedroom house in normal 80 wah compound runs about 10k per month on short term lease and price has not increased in decades.

We are trying to answer you as best we can - and provide options that you might consider. You already know you do not qualify for loan so the options are not really good. But they might be a good alternative.

I live in the Rama 2 area. The house is in a secured mooban with swimming-pool and other commodities, believe me 25k to 30k baht/month is the average price for a similar house in a similar mooban. Since I am 24h/day at home, I really appreciate the peacefulness and comfort I have here and I know it would be hard to find something similar at a reasonable price. We have all shopping malls with 3 minutes drive (Big C, Lotus, Central Plaza, Holland Beer and so on...), this is another reason why I don't want to leave.

Last point, we have 6 cats and most landlords/moobans wouldn't accept it, even if they have their own hut they need to run everyday, I know from a previous experience how difficult it is to find neighbours accepting that, and here everything's fine where we live.

Now I guess you understand why we don't want to leave, I hear what you say about renting another house and I thank you for your advices.

I know I don't qualify for a loan, but I know that in some rare cases, farangs without a work permit have been able to finally get a loan (from a forum topic in Thai my wife found on the Internet, dating back from 2008...). The problem is that there was no real solution in the topic, the one who managed to get a loan tried 9 banks and the last one accepted it. Such information doesn't help me much though

Thinking outside the box....

Ask the landlord to mortgage the sale himself.

You make a legal contract to purchase over say 10 years, guarantee to hold life insurance, then make a 20% down payment, with subsequent monthly payments of 2x,xxx THB pcm for ten years.

As a guarantee on your end, the landlord records a lease to you on the chanote for 30 years (you pay the charges for this), the lease can stay after the property transfers to your wife.

It's more than a bit complicated, definitely requires the services of a lawyer, but if the landlord will run with it, then it could work.

[DavisH]

Although it may not be what you want - renting in Thailand is not such a bad option - you can move if/when required (almost impossible to sell if neighbor becomes a disco). And rentals here are quite reasonable.

Most board member will always advise renting as protection from divorce also.

"Most board member will always advise renting"

And that would be because most people don't have a lazy 3-10 mill sitting around in cash and you are aware that farang can not get finance in Thailand right? Buying property here is cash only and even in the west there are very few punters with that amount of cash laying around. How many do you know?

I'm surprised at your post actually.

Where did you near that? Our loan is in my wife's name but also used my salary + hers to secure it (5m baht). He salary alone was far from enough. But I have a work permit and at the time worked at the same place for 10 years. No trouble at all getting the loan.

[mcfish]

Although it may not be what you want - renting in Thailand is not such a bad option - you can move if/when required (almost impossible to sell if neighbor becomes a disco). And rentals here are quite reasonable.

Most board member will always advise renting as protection from divorce also.

"Most board member will always advise renting"

And that would be because most people don't have a lazy 3-10 mill sitting around in cash and you are aware that farang can not get finance in Thailand right? Buying property here is cash only and even in the west there are very few punters with that amount of cash laying around. How many do you know?

I'm surprised at your post actually.

Where did you near that? Our loan is in my wife's name but also used my salary + hers to secure it (5m baht). He salary alone was far from enough. But I have a work permit and at the time worked at the same place for 10 years. No trouble at all getting the loan.

"Our loan is in my wife's name" you may want to re read my post. I say it again, farang can not get a loan in Thailand to buy a house.

[Bitterend]

Where exactly is it that you live? Do you really need to live there?

In my area of Bangkok a 3 bedroom house in normal 80 wah compound runs about 10k per month on short term lease and price has not increased in decades.

We are trying to answer you as best we can - and provide options that you might consider. You already know you do not qualify for loan so the options are not really good. But they might be a good alternative.

I live in the Rama 2 area. The house is in a secured mooban with swimming-pool and other commodities, believe me 25k to 30k baht/month is the average price for a similar house in a similar mooban. Since I am 24h/day at home, I really appreciate the peacefulness and comfort I have here and I know it would be hard to find something similar at a reasonable price. We have all shopping malls with 3 minutes drive (Big C, Lotus, Central Plaza, Holland Beer and so on...), this is another reason why I don't want to leave.

Last point, we have 6 cats and most landlords/moobans wouldn't accept it, even if they have their own hut they need to run everyday, I know from a previous experience how difficult it is to find neighbours accepting that, and here everything's fine where we live.

Now I guess you understand why we don't want to leave, I hear what you say about renting another house and I thank you for your advices.

I know I don't qualify for a loan, but I know that in some rare cases, farangs without a work permit have been able to finally get a loan (from a forum topic in Thai my wife found on the Internet, dating back from 2008...). The problem is that there was no real solution in the topic, the one who managed to get a loan tried 9 banks and the last one accepted it. Such information doesn't help me much though

Thinking outside the box....

Ask the landlord to mortgage the sale himself.

You make a legal contract to purchase over say 10 years, guarantee to hold life insurance, then make a 20% down payment, with subsequent monthly payments of 2x,xxx THB pcm for ten years.

As a guarantee on your end, the landlord records a lease to you on the chanote for 30 years (you pay the charges for this), the lease can stay after the property transfers to your wife.

It's more than a bit complicated, definitely requires the services of a lawyer, but if the landlord will run with it, then it could work.

I do try to think outside the box, but what if I tell you that the landlord can't mortgage it himself since he's on a loan with only 30% of the house value paid so far, and that he wants to sell the house cause he needs to terminate this loan and needs some money quickly?

I appreciate that you try to find solutions, but none of them matches my situation unfortunatly...

[digitalchromakey]

Where exactly is it that you live? Do you really need to live there?

In my area of Bangkok a 3 bedroom house in normal 80 wah compound runs about 10k per month on short term lease and price has not increased in decades.

We are trying to answer you as best we can - and provide options that you might consider. You already know you do not qualify for loan so the options are not really good. But they might be a good alternative.

I live in the Rama 2 area. The house is in a secured mooban with swimming-pool and other commodities, believe me 25k to 30k baht/month is the average price for a similar house in a similar mooban. Since I am 24h/day at home, I really appreciate the peacefulness and comfort I have here and I know it would be hard to find something similar at a reasonable price. We have all shopping malls with 3 minutes drive (Big C, Lotus, Central Plaza, Holland Beer and so on...), this is another reason why I don't want to leave.

Last point, we have 6 cats and most landlords/moobans wouldn't accept it, even if they have their own hut they need to run everyday, I know from a previous experience how difficult it is to find neighbours accepting that, and here everything's fine where we live.

Now I guess you understand why we don't want to leave, I hear what you say about renting another house and I thank you for your advices.

I know I don't qualify for a loan, but I know that in some rare cases, farangs without a work permit have been able to finally get a loan (from a forum topic in Thai my wife found on the Internet, dating back from 2008...). The problem is that there was no real solution in the topic, the one who managed to get a loan tried 9 banks and the last one accepted it. Such information doesn't help me much though

Thinking outside the box....

Ask the landlord to mortgage the sale himself.

You make a legal contract to purchase over say 10 years, guarantee to hold life insurance, then make a 20% down payment, with subsequent monthly payments of 2x,xxx THB pcm for ten years.

As a guarantee on your end, the landlord records a lease to you on the chanote for 30 years (you pay the charges for this), the lease can stay after the property transfers to your wife.

It's more than a bit complicated, definitely requires the services of a lawyer, but if the landlord will run with it, then it could work.

I do try to think outside the box, but what if I tell you that the landlord can't mortgage it himself since he's on a loan with only 30% of the house value paid so far, and that he wants to sell the house cause he needs to terminate this loan and needs some money quickly?

I appreciate that you try to find solutions, but none of them matches my situation unfortunatly...

Ah, assumed the landlord was the owner, not the bank.

Make a contract to take over the loan payments for the guy vs. a long term rent/purchase contract, combined with life insurance policies for you and the landlord with the wife as a beneficiary in both cases?

There are some who do this already when purchasing cars already on HP, but not redeeming the vendor's loan until the end. Sale papers are signed and pre exchanged for when the loan is cleared.

It's somewhat like a lease purchase agreement - BMW sell their new cars like this in Thailand (1/3 down, 1/3 over several years, with a final 1/3 balloon payment at the end).

Again needs a lawyer for sure.

Not sure as to the legality and it's certainly more difficult to provide two way protection than the first approach I suggested.

[mngmn]

Where exactly is it that you live? Do you really need to live there?

In my area of Bangkok a 3 bedroom house in normal 80 wah compound runs about 10k per month on short term lease and price has not increased in decades.

We are trying to answer you as best we can - and provide options that you might consider. You already know you do not qualify for loan so the options are not really good. But they might be a good alternative.

I live in the Rama 2 area. The house is in a secured mooban with swimming-pool and other commodities, believe me 25k to 30k baht/month is the average price for a similar house in a similar mooban. Since I am 24h/day at home, I really appreciate the peacefulness and comfort I have here and I know it would be hard to find something similar at a reasonable price. We have all shopping malls with 3 minutes drive (Big C, Lotus, Central Plaza, Holland Beer and so on...), this is another reason why I don't want to leave.

Last point, we have 6 cats and most landlords/moobans wouldn't accept it, even if they have their own hut they need to run everyday, I know from a previous experience how difficult it is to find neighbours accepting that, and here everything's fine where we live.

Now I guess you understand why we don't want to leave, I hear what you say about renting another house and I thank you for your advices.

I know I don't qualify for a loan, but I know that in some rare cases, farangs without a work permit have been able to finally get a loan (from a forum topic in Thai my wife found on the Internet, dating back from 2008...). The problem is that there was no real solution in the topic, the one who managed to get a loan tried 9 banks and the last one accepted it. Such information doesn't help me much though

Thinking outside the box....

Ask the landlord to mortgage the sale himself.

You make a legal contract to purchase over say 10 years, guarantee to hold life insurance, then make a 20% down payment, with subsequent monthly payments of 2x,xxx THB pcm for ten years.

As a guarantee on your end, the landlord records a lease to you on the chanote for 30 years (you pay the charges for this), the lease can stay after the property transfers to your wife.

It's more than a bit complicated, definitely requires the services of a lawyer, but if the landlord will run with it, then it could work.

I do try to think outside the box, but what if I tell you that the landlord can't mortgage it himself since he's on a loan with only 30% of the house value paid so far, and that he wants to sell the house cause he needs to terminate this loan and needs some money quickly?

I appreciate that you try to find solutions, but none of them matches my situation unfortunatly...

I know that out doesn't give you the security you seek but realistically the house could take months (or even years) to sell. Property turnover is really slow in Thailand. In my experience owners who "need money quickly" also tend to overprice to the point where they often kill interest in the property. "Saving face" often stops them from reducing the price to a more realistic level. Check out how long it has taken to sell similar properties in your area.

Another thing that has actually happened to me is the landlord saying he wants to sell in the hope that I will want to stay in the house and buy at an inflated price.

He actually came back a year later and offered the house again but warned me the price had gone up. Property prices increase on 1st Jan every year in Thailand. Regular as clockwork but few get sold.

Sit tight if you can and see how long it takes to sell.

[Bitterend]

I know that out doesn't give you the security you seek but realistically the house could take months (or even years) to sell. Property turnover is really slow in Thailand. In my experience owners who "need money quickly" also tend to overprice to the point where they often kill interest in the property. "Saving face" often stops them from reducing the price to a more realistic level. Check out how long it has taken to sell similar properties in your area.

Another thing that has actually happened to me is the landlord saying he wants to sell in the hope that I will want to stay in the house and buy at an inflated price.

He actually came back a year later and offered the house again but warned me the price had gone up. Property prices increase on 1st Jan every year in Thailand. Regular as clockwork but few get sold.

Sit tight if you can and see how long it takes to sell.

I wish you could be right, but I have a slightly different experience: my nearest neighbours just sold their house in no time, less than one month, and they sold it 1 million bahts more expensive than the price our landlord wants to sell it (it is exactly the same house/land). Let's hope it was an exception!

Anyway we're trying to discuss it with the landlord, as some of you said I tried to think out of the box: we're waiting confirmation but the landlord will probably increase the rent with the guarantee he will not sell the house to anyone else for the next 6 months, giving my wife time to run a small "business" and giving me time to save more money so we can ask for a 70% loan, with a little luck that could make it.

Thank you all for your answers!

[hugocnx]

Bitterend; if your wife starts a small biss then how would she be able to prove income.

Small biss in Thailand usually do not pay tax and don't need/don't do book keeping.

Further more I don't know the laws here precise, but if you have an official rental contract with no end date (not renewed officially on annual basis)

could your landlord give you notice just like that. Must be some protection here as well......duh NOT?

[BritTim]

If you have a very good credit rating, and good relationship with your bank in France, you could possibly arrange foreign financing. If available, it will probably not be expensive.

[PattayaPhom]

How about a loan from France..interest rates a lot lower than here. Will the present owner do finance?

[BB1955]

Most you ll get is 50% based on your guarentee

[MobileContent]

Why don't you directly do a deal with the landlord and pay him 50k per month without a loan. I know of people's that have bought in this way houses in Thailand but I have to be honest that the landlord was not in a hurry to sell it. On top of that you can pay 20% of 2.9 million Baht in cash as a down payment and you would come on almost 580,000 Baht as a down-payment.

After 2 years the amount you would have paid him would be 1.78 million Baht.

[meatboy]

Why don't you directly do a deal with the landlord and pay him 50k per month without a loan. I know of people's that have bought in this way houses in Thailand but I have to be honest that the landlord was not in a hurry to sell it. On top of that you can pay 20% of 2.9 million Baht in cash as a down payment and you would come on almost 580,000 Baht as a down-payment.

After 2 years the amount you would have paid him would be 1.78 million Baht.

there could be more to this than meets the EYE. if he's desperate to sell at that price,for a house in a mooban in bkk.then there could possibly be a repossesion pending and a loan against it.you and your wife without legally working income are not going to get anywhere.very easy to rent but with 6cats this will be a problem.

as the saying goes, 2.9million bht.for a house on a mooban in bkk.is tooooooooooooooooooooooooo good tooooooooooooooooo be TRUE.

TREAD CARFULLY.

[happynthailand]

check out the SCB Bank

they will lend your wife 50% with 50% down,you can pay loan from your banking account every month

if wife is working they will give 80% loan,with 20% down,you can pay loan from your banking account every month

we have had a few loans from SCB,they like expats

[GOLDBUGGY]

The only possible way I can see you doing this is to payout the owner his interest on this property (30%) and assume his mortgage at the bank by making all the bank payments. Maybe his bank would agree.

The only problem with this is the Seller holding the Title until this is completed because I doubt the Land Office will transfer the property as long as there is a Mortgage on it. Since you can't get a new mortgage to erase that, it is a problem. So to protect yourself what you need is a separate contract with a lawyer, and his advice, in which the Seller agrees to give you the title once the mortgage is paid up in full by you. Having a Usufruct or 30 Year Lease would also help but if the main Leasee were to die, it leaves the other partner with no protecting. Creative Financing is not popular here!

Best thing is talk to the Seller and see if you can make some deal with him, and his bank by agreeing to take over the mortgage. Then if you have some deal talk to a lawyer to make sure you can protect yourself in the invent something happens later. If nobody agrees then you are stuck renting until you have the money to pay cash.

On the bright side, it is not easy to sell a house in today's market so you my still be able to live there for awhile. I have an acquaintance who has been living in his condo for 10 years and has been trying to sell it for 6 years, with an asking price of just to break even. He overpaid when he bought as he bought from a so called trusted friend. So who knows.