Hiring of foreign aviation experts to be speeded up

[Briggsy]

I went to the hardware store to buy some window film. I picked what I wanted & then asked for 2 mts. They had a cutting machine for this purpose & after about 10 minutes of trying to work it out the 15 staff who were there, walked away & left a girl to cut it with scissors. I just sat back & laughed. I then walked up put the roll in the machine & showed them how to use it. They all nodded politely & said we know how to use. It OK. Thais do not take a foreigner telling them how to do something well. They don't like it at all. So if such a simple task cannot be taught to a Thai then how the **** are engineers going to teach them how to maintain an plane or anythign else that is critical in the aviation industry.

Thai govt will hire an agency in Thailand who will hire another international agency who has the expertise, systems and experience to find the right people to do the job who will be hired on short term contracts. There may even be far more layers of bureaucratic hiring than that, agencies hiring agencies hiring agencies etc.

The whole thing will be very expensive, in fact far more expensive than it should be. The minister and senior civil servants who oversee the whole thing will get kickbacks. The taxpayer will foot the bill. Never let an opportunity for graft pass by.

[PattayaClub]

Why should a Farang get pay more than a Thai He can learn a lot in Thailand

Because farang are experts and Thais typically know little but have Thai credentials.

[PattayaClub]

I went to the hardware store to buy some window film. I picked what I wanted & then asked for 2 mts. They had a cutting machine for this purpose & after about 10 minutes of trying to work it out the 15 staff who were there, walked away & left a girl to cut it with scissors. I just sat back & laughed. I then walked up put the roll in the machine & showed them how to use it. They all nodded politely & said we know how to use. It OK. Thais do not take a foreigner telling them how to do something well. They don't like it at all. So if such a simple task cannot be taught to a Thai then how the **** are engineers going to teach them how to maintain an plane or anythign else that is critical in the aviation industry.

Thai govt will hire an agency in Thailand who will hire another international agency who has the expertise, systems and experience to find the right people to do the job who will be hired on short term contracts. There may even be far more layers of bureaucratic hiring than that, agencies hiring agencies hiring agencies etc.

The whole thing will be very expensive, in fact far more expensive than it should be. The minister and senior civil servants who oversee the whole thing will get kickbacks. The taxpayer will foot the bill. Never let an opportunity for graft pass by.

Sounds like thew ay FEMA handled the Katrina reconstruction starting with its hiring of Haliburton as prime contractor.

[newnative]

This should be a total no-brainer. Hiring foreign workers to fix the problem = small loss of face, mainly to Thai aviation workers/management. Not hiring foreign workers to fix the problem = large loss of face to all of Thailand. Not to mention the huge loss of money in so many sectors.

[harrry]

They should also hire an electrician:

"A short power outage was experienced at Suvarnabhumi airport on Friday night but operations were not affected.

A Suvarnabhumi airport official said the blackout lasted nine minutes from 8.11pm to 8.20pm."

It should have affected operations.

The outage had the potential to jepopdise security completely.

If that had happened in Australia the terminals wwould be completely evacuated and eveyone rescreened after a commplete building security inspection.

[billd766]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists

You're right, it's going to cost a whole lot more than that.

They will have to pay it.

If they can't, don't or won't pat the proper going rates then they won't get quality people and that WILL cost them a whole lot more in the future. They will be banned from the USA, possibly from the EU and the UK, maybe from Asia Pacific too.

Once you lose your reputation and passengers start to use other airlines you won't get them back very easily.

If you ban international airlines from Thailand then you will lose all the forex that tourists bring in (and how much is that worth) and the country will go bust quickly.

International travel into and out of Thailand - fly to Penang or Cambodia or Laos and connect via tour coaches into Thailand.

I somehow don't think that tourists will want to fly for 10 hours, get off the aircraft in a different country and then spend another 5 hours or so cramped up on a bus or 2 buses really, one to get from the airport to the border, disembark and go through immigration then get on a different bus for a few more hours to complete their journey on the roads of Thailand.

They may have a visa for Thailand or opt for a visa on arrival which at the airport is 30 days, but only 15 days at a land crossing. That always assumes that Malaysia, Cambodia or Laos will allow them to land in country with no visa other than VOA.

They may opt to cancel their trip to Thailand and go elsewhere. If they do that and this debacle finally gets sorted out, a lot of those tourists may never come back.

[elgordo38]

I went to the hardware store to buy some window film. I picked what I wanted & then asked for 2 mts. They had a cutting machine for this purpose & after about 10 minutes of trying to work it out the 15 staff who were there, walked away & left a girl to cut it with scissors. I just sat back & laughed. I then walked up put the roll in the machine & showed them how to use it. They all nodded politely & said we know how to use. It OK. Thais do not take a foreigner telling them how to do something well. They don't like it at all. So if such a simple task cannot be taught to a Thai then how the **** are engineers going to teach them how to maintain an plane or anythign else that is critical in the aviation industry.

They are very friendly people but do not take suggestions well.

[elgordo38]

Why wasn't this hiring of people to do a proper job set in motion when the problem first reared its head months ago? Because the Thais thought they could fudge it.

Next up - the Thai fishing industry; with allegations of forced labour, slavery, trafficking and illegal and over-fishing, that should provide another ready example of why aspirations so often fall short of reality here.

It is a pity that, more often than not, the common people pay the price while the unmentionable organisations clean up.

It's infinitely easier to prevent a boat from leaving the pier than it is to pass international air safety regulations.

That is why the fishing industry clean-up is (seems to be) working somewhat. All it costs is paying a few cops extra to actually do their jobs.

Keeping those pesky airplanes in order costs BIG money = the dragging of feet.

Yes they seem allergic to spending money on important things. Subs, Beijing Bullet, Missiles, Cop Guns etc. you know the boy toys are OK.

[OMGImInPattaya]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists

You're right, it's going to cost a whole lot more than that.

They will have to pay it.

If they can't, don't or won't pat the proper going rates then they won't get quality people and that WILL cost them a whole lot more in the future. They will be banned from the USA, possibly from the EU and the UK, maybe from Asia Pacific too.

Once you lose your reputation and passengers start to use other airlines you won't get them back very easily.

If you ban international airlines from Thailand then you will lose all the forex that tourists bring in (and how much is that worth) and the country will go bust quickly.

International travel into and out of Thailand - fly to Penang or Cambodia or Laos and connect via tour coaches into Thailand.

I somehow don't think that tourists will want to fly for 10 hours, get off the aircraft in a different country and then spend another 5 hours or so cramped up on a bus or 2 buses really, one to get from the airport to the border, disembark and go through immigration then get on a different bus for a few more hours to complete their journey on the roads of Thailand.

They may have a visa for Thailand or opt for a visa on arrival which at the airport is 30 days, but only 15 days at a land crossing. That always assumes that Malaysia, Cambodia or Laos will allow them to land in country with no visa other than VOA.

They may opt to cancel their trip to Thailand and go elsewhere. If they do that and this debacle finally gets sorted out, a lot of those tourists may never come back.

The downgrades only affect Thai based carriers, e.g., Thai Airways, Thai Air Asia, that are regulated by the Thai civil aviation authorities. The substandard practices in question are related to the oversight and licensing of these carriers by said authorities. These carriers may loose landing rights in foreign countries or at a minimum, be unable to increase their flight frequency or start new routes.

Foreign carriers are not affected in the least, except in that they may reap a bonanza of passengers if Thai is banned from some foreign flights. Also, the safety of Thai Airways itself isn't directly in question, only the oversight of its aircraft inspection and maintence routine by the civil authorities.

[jpinx]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists

You're right, it's going to cost a whole lot more than that.

They will have to pay it.

If they can't, don't or won't pat the proper going rates then they won't get quality people and that WILL cost them a whole lot more in the future. They will be banned from the USA, possibly from the EU and the UK, maybe from Asia Pacific too.

Once you lose your reputation and passengers start to use other airlines you won't get them back very easily.

If you ban international airlines from Thailand then you will lose all the forex that tourists bring in (and how much is that worth) and the country will go bust quickly.

International travel into and out of Thailand - fly to Penang or Cambodia or Laos and connect via tour coaches into Thailand.

I somehow don't think that tourists will want to fly for 10 hours, get off the aircraft in a different country and then spend another 5 hours or so cramped up on a bus or 2 buses really, one to get from the airport to the border, disembark and go through immigration then get on a different bus for a few more hours to complete their journey on the roads of Thailand.

They may have a visa for Thailand or opt for a visa on arrival which at the airport is 30 days, but only 15 days at a land crossing. That always assumes that Malaysia, Cambodia or Laos will allow them to land in country with no visa other than VOA.

They may opt to cancel their trip to Thailand and go elsewhere. If they do that and this debacle finally gets sorted out, a lot of those tourists may never come back.

The downgrades only affect Thai based carriers, e.g., Thai Airways, Thai Air Asia, that are regulated by the Thai civil aviation authorities. The substandard practices in question are related to the oversight and licensing of these carriers by said authorities. These carriers may loose landing rights in foreign countries or at a minimum, be unable to increase their flight frequency or start new routes.

Foreign carriers are not affected in the least, except in that they may reap a bonanza of passengers if Thai is banned from some foreign flights. Also, the safety of Thai Airways itself isn't directly in question, only the oversight of its aircraft inspection and maintence routine by the civil authorities.

Wrong -- the Thai civil aviation authority controls everything to do with aviation in Thailand - including passenger carriers, air-cargo, airports, air navigation. Depending on the terms of the report, the consequences could be very far-reaching.

[This Thing of Darkness]

I don' Know if Singpore work under FAA rules , probably But flights or new flights from Singapore cant be booked at the moment I have air asia flight out on 24/12 and In on 6 jan, I think they will be allowed to honor those with Bookings. However if Thailand want to turn Thais against the American they will.

Deleted some Xanax Rubbish, Prescribed by neurologist by the way for anxiety and crap sleep

Edited December 6, 2015 by This Thing of Darkness

[expatbrit]

I don' Know if Singpore work under FAA rules , probably But flights or new flights from Singapore cant be booked at the moment I have air asia flight out on 24/12 and In on 6 jan, I think they will be allowed to honor those with Bookings. However if Thailand want to turn Thais against the American they will.

Deleted some Xanax Rubbish, Prescribed by neurologist by the way for anxiety and crap sleep

Nonsense !

Where did you learn this "information" ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here is a law firm's overview of the EU's aviation blacklist process.

http://www.kattenlaw.com/Files/124406_A_guide_to_the_EU_Blacklist.pdf

It includes background on Thailand's situation and the other countries and airlines that are currently banned from operating in the EU.

However, it says absolution nothing about the EU blacklist process imposing any restrictions on EU operators being able to continue flights into blacklisted countries. So, I think those here discussing that supposed prospect are mistaken. The EU blacklist would not prevent EU airlines from continuing to fly into Thailand.

As an example of this, all Philippines airlines were on the EU blacklist from 2010 to 2013. But that certainly didn't mean that EU airlines couldn't and didn't continue serving the Philippines during those years.

The report also explains how blacklisted carriers can continue to fly to the EU despite being blacklisted:

A banned airline may nevertheless offer services into Europe by entering into an aircraft, crew, maintenance and insurance agreement as lessee–otherwise known as a wet lease–with an airline that is not banned as lessor. In such an operation the airline lessor is the operator of the flight, not the banned airline. The wet-leased aircraft may be branded as if it belongs to the fleet of the banned airline.

For example, Libyan carrier Afrigivah Airways has wet leased a pair of aircraft from the United

Arab Emirates-based Aerovista for flights to Turkey, Jordan and possibly elsewhere in Europe.

Edited December 6, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The EU homepage for the blacklist:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/air-ban/

The list itself as of June 2015

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/air-ban/doc/list_en.pdf

The EU press release for the June update of the blacklist:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5249_en.htm

The EU Air Safety List is a list of airlines which are either considered not to be able to respect international aviation safety standards, or whose civil aviation authorities are deemed unable to provide the necessary safety oversight as foreseen by international aviation safety rules. The airlines mentioned on the EU Air Safety List are either not allowed to operate to the EU, or, in a limited number of cases can only do so under very strict conditions. The EU Air Safety List also serves as a tool to warn the travelling public when travelling in other parts of the world.

All airlines from the Philippines, banned since 2010, have been released from the List and are therefore allowed to operate in the European airspace. No new bans have been imposed with this update.

Violeta Bulc, EU Commissioner for Transport said: "After 5 years of hard work we are finally able to clear the airlines certified in the Philippines from the European Air Safety List. The Philippines is an important country with a sizeable and rapidly growing aviation sector. Today's result can serve as an example for other countries which have difficulty to match their safety oversight capabilities with the growth of their industry.

Edited December 6, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[OMGImInPattaya]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists

You're right, it's going to cost a whole lot more than that.

They will have to pay it.

If they can't, don't or won't pat the proper going rates then they won't get quality people and that WILL cost them a whole lot more in the future. They will be banned from the USA, possibly from the EU and the UK, maybe from Asia Pacific too.

Once you lose your reputation and passengers start to use other airlines you won't get them back very easily.

If you ban international airlines from Thailand then you will lose all the forex that tourists bring in (and how much is that worth) and the country will go bust quickly.

International travel into and out of Thailand - fly to Penang or Cambodia or Laos and connect via tour coaches into Thailand.

I somehow don't think that tourists will want to fly for 10 hours, get off the aircraft in a different country and then spend another 5 hours or so cramped up on a bus or 2 buses really, one to get from the airport to the border, disembark and go through immigration then get on a different bus for a few more hours to complete their journey on the roads of Thailand.

They may have a visa for Thailand or opt for a visa on arrival which at the airport is 30 days, but only 15 days at a land crossing. That always assumes that Malaysia, Cambodia or Laos will allow them to land in country with no visa other than VOA.

They may opt to cancel their trip to Thailand and go elsewhere. If they do that and this debacle finally gets sorted out, a lot of those tourists may never come back.

The downgrades only affect Thai based carriers, e.g., Thai Airways, Thai Air Asia, that are regulated by the Thai civil aviation authorities. The substandard practices in question are related to the oversight and licensing of these carriers by said authorities. These carriers may loose landing rights in foreign countries or at a minimum, be unable to increase their flight frequency or start new routes.

Foreign carriers are not affected in the least, except in that they may reap a bonanza of passengers if Thai is banned from some foreign flights. Also, the safety of Thai Airways itself isn't directly in question, only the oversight of its aircraft inspection and maintence routine by the civil authorities.

Wrong -- the Thai civil aviation authority controls everything to do with aviation in Thailand - including passenger carriers, air-cargo, airports, air navigation. Depending on the terms of the report, the consequences could be very far-reaching.

I don't think they control the airports nor Thai airways except in the sense they license them to operate. In any case, those segments of the industry are not in question. So sorry, as much as the Thai bashers may want it, Swampy or Thai aren't going to be shut down.

[This Thing of Darkness]

I don' Know if Singpore work under FAA rules , probably But flights or new flights from Singapore cant be booked at the moment I have air asia flight out on 24/12 and In on 6 jan, I think they will be allowed to honor those with Bookings. However if Thailand want to turn Thais against the American they will.

Deleted some Xanax Rubbish, Prescribed by neurologist by the way for anxiety and crap sleep

Nonsense !

Where did you learn this "information" ?

Wind you neck in GOB, You couldn't book a flight earlier on their site from/to Singapore ,on their site let you get to the end and then said , to call them , which was jammed, I assumed it was something to do with embargo, wouldn't surprise me with the Singaporean LTA, I'll take a look later if I can go though it all again got my missus on Sing air not DM though couple of btK more. Might start using them myself actually for home jaunts, 30k baggage and food , so might have a look , plus not so much of a scrum down as DM

[OMGImInPattaya]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists

You're right, it's going to cost a whole lot more than that.

They will have to pay it.

If they can't, don't or won't pat the proper going rates then they won't get quality people and that WILL cost them a whole lot more in the future. They will be banned from the USA, possibly from the EU and the UK, maybe from Asia Pacific too.

Once you lose your reputation and passengers start to use other airlines you won't get them back very easily.

If you ban international airlines from Thailand then you will lose all the forex that tourists bring in (and how much is that worth) and the country will go bust quickly.

International travel into and out of Thailand - fly to Penang or Cambodia or Laos and connect via tour coaches into Thailand.

I somehow don't think that tourists will want to fly for 10 hours, get off the aircraft in a different country and then spend another 5 hours or so cramped up on a bus or 2 buses really, one to get from the airport to the border, disembark and go through immigration then get on a different bus for a few more hours to complete their journey on the roads of Thailand.

They may have a visa for Thailand or opt for a visa on arrival which at the airport is 30 days, but only 15 days at a land crossing. That always assumes that Malaysia, Cambodia or Laos will allow them to land in country with no visa other than VOA.

They may opt to cancel their trip to Thailand and go elsewhere. If they do that and this debacle finally gets sorted out, a lot of those tourists may never come back.

The downgrades only affect Thai based carriers, e.g., Thai Airways, Thai Air Asia, that are regulated by the Thai civil aviation authorities. The substandard practices in question are related to the oversight and licensing of these carriers by said authorities. These carriers may loose landing rights in foreign countries or at a minimum, be unable to increase their flight frequency or start new routes.

Foreign carriers are not affected in the least, except in that they may reap a bonanza of passengers if Thai is banned from some foreign flights. Also, the safety of Thai Airways itself isn't directly in question, only the oversight of its aircraft inspection and maintence routine by the civil authorities.

Wrong -- the Thai civil aviation authority controls everything to do with aviation in Thailand - including passenger carriers, air-cargo, airports, air navigation. Depending on the terms of the report, the consequences could be very far-reaching.

I don't think they control the airports nor Thai airways except in the sense they license them to operate. In any case, those segments of the industry are not in question. So sorry, as much as the Thai bashers may want it, Swampy or Thai aren't going to be shut down.

[Marcusv]

That must of hurt the Thais foriegners in the Kingdom to repair the damage. Better stick to those beloved words of Thailand fast track.... I have hurd them used in ED Visa extra payment and not attend scholl policies previously

[tribalfusion001]

@OMGImInPattaya, can't you sort those quote blocks out, it's getting difficult to read?

[OMGImInPattaya]

@OMGImInPattaya, can't you sort those quote blocks out, it's getting difficult to read?

Sorry about that...my mobile browser (Chrome) gets it correct about half the time :-(

[tribalfusion001]

@OMGImInPattaya, can't you sort those quote blocks out, it's getting difficult to read?

Sorry about that...my mobile browser (Chrome) gets it correct about half the time :-(

Oh ok. Try Firefox on android.

[jpinx]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists

You're right, it's going to cost a whole lot more than that.

They will have to pay it.

If they can't, don't or won't pat the proper going rates then they won't get quality people and that WILL cost them a whole lot more in the future. They will be banned from the USA, possibly from the EU and the UK, maybe from Asia Pacific too.

Once you lose your reputation and passengers start to use other airlines you won't get them back very easily.

If you ban international airlines from Thailand then you will lose all the forex that tourists bring in (and how much is that worth) and the country will go bust quickly.

International travel into and out of Thailand - fly to Penang or Cambodia or Laos and connect via tour coaches into Thailand.

I somehow don't think that tourists will want to fly for 10 hours, get off the aircraft in a different country and then spend another 5 hours or so cramped up on a bus or 2 buses really, one to get from the airport to the border, disembark and go through immigration then get on a different bus for a few more hours to complete their journey on the roads of Thailand.

They may have a visa for Thailand or opt for a visa on arrival which at the airport is 30 days, but only 15 days at a land crossing. That always assumes that Malaysia, Cambodia or Laos will allow them to land in country with no visa other than VOA.

They may opt to cancel their trip to Thailand and go elsewhere. If they do that and this debacle finally gets sorted out, a lot of those tourists may never come back.

The downgrades only affect Thai based carriers, e.g., Thai Airways, Thai Air Asia, that are regulated by the Thai civil aviation authorities. The substandard practices in question are related to the oversight and licensing of these carriers by said authorities. These carriers may loose landing rights in foreign countries or at a minimum, be unable to increase their flight frequency or start new routes.

Foreign carriers are not affected in the least, except in that they may reap a bonanza of passengers if Thai is banned from some foreign flights. Also, the safety of Thai Airways itself isn't directly in question, only the oversight of its aircraft inspection and maintence routine by the civil authorities.

Wrong -- the Thai civil aviation authority controls everything to do with aviation in Thailand - including passenger carriers, air-cargo, airports, air navigation. Depending on the terms of the report, the consequences could be very far-reaching.

I don't think they control the airports nor Thai airways except in the sense they license them to operate. In any case, those segments of the industry are not in question. So sorry, as much as the Thai bashers may want it, Swampy or Thai aren't going to be shut down.

As I understand it, ICAO set the standards for a country's Civil Aviation Authority, and ICAO inspect and award a "status". Wasn't it the ICAO who started this ball rolling a few months ago when they inspected and downgraded Thailand's Civil Aviation Authority? That was when China and a few other places red-flagged Thai registered aircraft, wasn't it? The FAA and others are merely following up on inspections, to satisfy themselves of what's going on, since any Thai aircraft landing at any US FAA licensed airport must meet a minimum standard. Now the FAA have been and looked and said that they are seriously worried about Thai registered aircraft using FAA licensed facilities. The EU are apparently going to do a similar inspection soon to see if Thai registered aircraft can fly into EU licensed facilities.

I really really hope that Thailand can sort out their registration and licensing systems to the satisfaction of ICAO, FAA, EU, etc, but I am also aware that Thailand's Civil Aviation Authority licenses the airports, Air Traffic Control and Air Navigation systems. If ICAO find serious flaws in the Thai Civil Aviation Authority systems, some airlines might well take a second look at flying into an environment where the ATC etc are not up to the minimum international standards.

FWIW -- My commentary is based on 20 years of flying in aircraft on many different registries, and not all of them up to ICAO standards . !

P.S. OMG, if you're on a slower connection, you need to pause to allow the scripts to load before you try to reply. That's been my experience with messed up quotes

Edited December 6, 2015 by jpinx

[Jim walker]

And Thailand brimming with homemade geniuses especially in the RTAF must be a few generals with a brain cell between them and a Merc that could do this simple testing job and a bit of pen pushing, that will do lovely now get it up in the air and if its still faulty it will come down again and then we can have a closer look at the debris and call in a few even better qualified experts like my cousin who was a Tuk Tuk driver and very knowledgeable regarding the engine and making it go forward. We dont need interfering foreigners with no work permit telling us our Thai planes are unsafe as if .

[Thian]

I teach aviation English. Don't expect any help from me.

"chicken or beef?" "orange juice or apple juice?"

When i flew China-airlines it was pips or chkn.....

[Jim walker]

And Thailand brimming with homemade geniuses especially in the RTAF must be a few generals with a brain cell between them and a Merc that could do this simple testing job and a bit of pen pushing, that will do lovely now get it up in the air and if its still faulty it will come down again and then we can have a closer look at the debris and call in a few even better qualified experts like my brother in law who is a Tuk Tuk driver and very knowledgeable regarding the engine and making it go forward. We dont need interfering foreigners with no work permit telling us our Thai planes are unsafe as if .