What qualifies as an experienced rider?

[CarolJadzia]

...hence the desirability of off-road skills?

Exactly. Coppers have no chance of catching the UK chavs burning through the woods until they bring out the chopper-copper!

These days the main reason for Police officers dropping a pursuit is for safety reasons.

Also of course is funding cutbacks, some police forces have been arguing for speed cameras to be turned on with Zero Tolerance, not for safety, but instead for revenue to cover the costs of employing extra officers.

[garryjohns]

Everyone has to learn to ride on the road, Including GP riders.

We can learn a lot from track racing, cornering skills and braking. However so much is not covered like observations or positioning to get the best view on blind corners.

Racetracks do not normally have trees or bus stops on the corners, or potholes, or drivers coming the other way.

I have raced fellow instructors who have told me how much better riders they are than me because they have done track days and obviously Police Roadcraft Skills are all about "Going safely and slowly".

They then have had to eat their words. As many who has tried to out-run a British Police Rider will verify.

Like I said above training does not make you a Better Rider, but if you are going to play a game it's better to play knowing all the cheats as well!

Racetracks do not normally have trees or bus stops on the corners, or potholes, or drivers coming the other way.

So true:

[thaiguzzi]

Stand up - sit down!

All comes down to the style of bike you are riding and your riding style.

Some bikes do not have proper seats and are designed to be ridden standing up.

Hearing all this talk of standing up makes me remember the 80's and Junior Kickstart on the Telly.

Excellent vid, thanx for posting. Brought back good memories and what an excellent program that was. Would'nt/could'nt happen today. Maybe motocross for kids in the States as that sport is still big - they've got the space and the land. Interesting in that vid to see how popular trials was in its early seventies to late eighties heyday. Again, nowadays, the problem in Europe is space and land, or lack of, plus all the public liabilty laws and "sue me" culture. Oh, and computer games...

[Gweiloman]

Seems EGO rules here.Safe riders don't say much .

It's not about egos. Riders share their knowledge and information with each other. Non selfish ones anyway.

[Gweiloman]

A great reason for standing on the pegs. On a recent trip I came across a road covered in potholes. Standing on the pegs not only takes the jolt away from your body and prevents possible injury, it also allows you to see well ahead of the road for more obstacles taking away unnecessary impacts from the bike that could possibly damage it.

Additionally, the chances are someone in a panic who is seated, would hit the brakes, throwing them over the bike if they hit one of these hole. Standing, you could, if you wanted to, blast over these holes while standing and you would not fall off.

You could of course (lord hope you're not night riding) slow to snail pace assuming you have noticed the holes and weave your way around, hoping in the meantime that the pickup behind doesn't take you out because they can't wait for you!

Let's just say having various skills on a bike is beneficial.

These potholes went on for about 5km

pothole hell.jpg

And before anyone says "why didn't you keep to the right" Before the image there were potholes on both side. Standing allow me to plot the best route for me and the bike.

Great topic, one of the best in recent months on this forum.

It seems that some posters confuse experience with skill. As you rightly mentioned in your OP, experience even in a car counts towards becoming an experienced rider. After all, bikes shares the roads with cars and truck and other vehicles so every km done, regardless of the mode of transportation adds to the experience.

Knowing how to ride standing on the pegs is also an essential skill when riding in Thailand. A mate and I did a long road trip last year including crossing the Sinakharin dam on a barge from Sisawet to Sangkhla Buri. This is not a well known route and was suggested by the local Sisawet police chief when we were taking the ferry to cut off some of the Sisawet loop. He looked at our bikes (two Versys) and said that we will be able to manage it easily.

Getting off the barge, we encountered over 20 kms of dirt, gravel and potholes. Anyone who rode that section sitting down would have been cursing every two seconds. However, by standing on the pegs, we were able to let the bike suspension do it's job and while not the most pleasant ride, we navigated it unscathed if a bit shaken.

[garryjohns]

So training doesn't make a better rider.

Ok.

This is true. It is not a given.

Training someone is only the start of the process .It's only if that person is wise enough to learn and then applies the knowledge gained will it be of benefit.

I've ridden with guys who do track days, and who have participated in various riding courses and yet ride like total novices mostly .Some people have a natural ability to do some things well, or better than others and this includes motorcycle riding .

Skill is only gained from experience, and the ability to learn a skill and put it into practice depends on the individual.

As Shakespeare once famously said;

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Edited December 10, 2015 by garryjohns

[canthai55]

I first rode dirt bikes, pre license days. Ride, fall off - Hmmm don' t do that. Ride some more - wipeout. Hmmm don't do that. And on and on. Saved my life when I got my first street bike as I had a good understanding of motorcycle dynamics - how the brakes work, how not to apply the brakes. Throttle control - throttle overcontrol. How to slide a bike, how to recover from a slide. Never heard of a school or training course to offer these lessons. Still learning.

[papa al]

Didnt Bob Marley famously sing:

'Stand up, stand up.

Stand up when you ride.'?

Edited December 10, 2015 by papa al

[CarolJadzia]

I first rode dirt bikes, pre license days. Ride, fall off - Hmmm don' t do that. Ride some more - wipeout. Hmmm don't do that. And on and on. Saved my life when I got my first street bike as I had a good understanding of motorcycle dynamics - how the brakes work, how not to apply the brakes. Throttle control - throttle overcontrol. How to slide a bike, how to recover from a slide. Never heard of a school or training course to offer these lessons. Still learning.

Actually when I first learned to ride I started exactly the same as you. But in 1990 the UK.Gov decided to introduce Compulsory Basic Training for anyone washing to ride a motorcycle in the UK.

The whole idea of the CBT is to give riders the basic training to start them on the road.

It includes How to brake and pull away, emergency stops, observations and basic control skills. It also includes a minimum two hour accompanied road ride.

I do not suggest the CBT is perfect, but at least it insures everyone has some basic training before going on the road.

Rider Training at Testing in the UK has got a lot more complex recently. Anyone interested can check this PDF flyer out that explains it as simply as possible http://think.direct.gov.uk/assets/pdf/dg_195228.pdf *Edit. My Bad! The PDF explains the CBT but it's test data is out of date. https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-practical-test/rules-for-mopeds-and-motorcycles-used-in-the-practical-riding-test

Shame that it still is not working. Accident rates have started to rise again. But we see the whole testing system as flawed anyway, My son to get an unlimited licence has to do the same test three times on ever larger bikes. He has to wait until he is 21 before he takes the final one to ride unlimited CC. Like I said above - the standards of that test are DVSA Standard not Advanced Roadcraft Standards. So there is no incentive for him to improve, in fact he has to remember to not use the advanced defensive riding skills for fear of failing the test.

We fault the CBT both for lack of content ( Scroll and read 'The Basic Art Of Slow Riding Control' ) and the fact that market forces mean loads of cowboy schools offering sub-standard Training. But at least the CBT means everyone has been taught at least some basic control before being allowed on-road. The CBT level of training is about the same standards as someone needs to pass the Thai Driving test. Just we teach people to that standard not expect people to know it.

Edited December 10, 2015 by CarolJadzia

[BBJ]

...hence the desirability of off-road skills?

Exactly. Coppers have no chance of catching the UK chavs burning through the woods until they bring out the chopper-copper!

These days the main reason for Police officers dropping a pursuit is for safety reasons.

Also of course is funding cutbacks, some police forces have been arguing for speed cameras to be turned on with Zero Tolerance, not for safety, but instead for revenue to cover the costs of employing extra officers.

Damn it! They've since got wiser!

Edited December 10, 2015 by BBJ

[CarolJadzia]

Damn it! They've since got wiser!

Yes they have, but not necessarily in the manor you suggest.

On a recent 'Biker Down' course the group was told directly something I had known for many years, but has recently been discussed more.

The officer said that as far as he was concerned as long as someone was driving safely and was not in a built up area, then exceeding the speed limit would not necessarily be cause for a pull.

Ok some forces still try a 'zero Tolerance' approach, but these days there is far more directed at the 'carrot rather than the stick'.

The police do not actually use the Atom for policing, it's all about suggested use rather than actual use. They only borrowed it from Ariel.

Edited December 10, 2015 by CarolJadzia

[expatbrit]

Damn it! They've since got wiser!

Yes they have, but not necessarily in the manor you suggest.

On a recent 'Biker Down' course the group was told directly something I had known for many years, but has recently been discussed more.

The officer said that as far as he was concerned as long as someone was driving safely and was not in a built up area, then exceeding the speed limit would not necessarily be cause for a pull.

Ok some forces still try a 'zero Tolerance' approach, but these days there is far more directed at the 'carrot rather than the stick'.

The police do not actually use the Atom for policing, it's all about suggested use rather than actual use. They only borrowed it from Ariel.

Interesting !

In Australia the police have no tolerance for "hoonish" riders and, in fact, will pull over big bikes even if they are being ridden sensibly !

I was riding my sons big Honda in Perth when the Police stopped me. The officer seemed surprised when I revealed a head of grey hair ! But he was polite and only took a brief glance at my licence before wishing me a "good day" !

[Fab5BKK]

What qualifies as an experienced rider?

Interesting thread...

After all this discussion... May I add a simple humour note?

Who cares? If I'm "qualified", will I get a medal, a free beer, an extension of stay based on my contribution to the Thai Society? Please tick the appropriate box(es)

If I'm not, will I be sent to an "attitude readjustment centre" to improve my "skills"

Thanks for reading and ridding!

[expatbrit]

What qualifies as an experienced rider?

Interesting thread...

After all this discussion... May I add a simple humour note?

Who cares? If I'm "qualified", will I get a medal, a free beer, an extension of stay based on my contribution to the Thai Society? Please tick the appropriate box(es)

If I'm not, will I be sent to an "attitude readjustment centre" to improve my "skills"

Thanks for reading and ridding!

You will receive no "awards" for learning/developing Advanced Riding Skills.

Being in possession of such skill will assist in staying alive.

[CarolJadzia]

Interesting !

In Australia the police have no tolerance for "hoonish" riders and, in fact, will pull over big bikes even if they are being ridden sensibly !

I was riding my sons big Honda in Perth when the Police stopped me. The officer seemed surprised when I revealed a head of grey hair ! But he was polite and only took a brief glance at my licence before wishing me a "good day" !

I feel sorry for Bikers in Australia at the mo. I see the reports of zero tolerance and harassment by the police of Bikers constantly reported on facebook.

While the approach by 'Austroads' to road safety is draconian but they speak as if they have just reinvented the wheel!

[expatbrit]

I have locked in my memory a wonderful vision of an event which occurred a few years ago.

A "skilled rider" was showing off by doing a prolonged burnout on a public road and the "mates" were impressed until the rear tyre caught fire and exploded. The whole bike was soon engulfed in flames !

I often wonder if an insurance claim was attempted ......

[Fab5BKK]

Did you get the funny side of my post? Not that sure...

What qualifies as an experienced rider?

Interesting thread...

After all this discussion... May I add a simple humour note?

Who cares? If I'm "qualified", will I get a medal, a free beer, an extension of stay based on my contribution to the Thai Society? Please tick the appropriate box(es)

If I'm not, will I be sent to an "attitude readjustment centre" to improve my "skills"

Thanks for reading and ridding!

You will receive no "awards" for learning/developing Advanced Riding Skills.

Being in possession of such skill will assist in staying alive.

[expatbrit]

Fab5BKK

"Did you get the funny side of my post?"

​Funny ? As in Ha Ha ?

Na do not "Get" it !

[Fab5BKK]

Your attitude just reminds me what Mark Twain wrote:

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"

+1 in the forget list

BTW, no need to change your user name that often...

Fab5BKK

"Did you get the funny side of my post?"

​Funny ? As in Ha Ha ?

Na do not "Get" it !

[taninthai]

Damn it! They've since got wiser!

Yes they have, but not necessarily in the manor you suggest.

On a recent 'Biker Down' course the group was told directly something I had known for many years, but has recently been discussed more.

The officer said that as far as he was concerned as long as someone was driving safely and was not in a built up area, then exceeding the speed limit would not necessarily be cause for a pull.

Ok some forces still try a 'zero Tolerance' approach, but these days there is far more directed at the 'carrot rather than the stick'.

The police do not actually use the Atom for policing, it's all about suggested use rather than actual use. They only borrowed it from Ariel.

the police will pull you in the UK if you are over the limit end of ,that's there job,yes they might not always give you a ticket sometimes a quiet word in the ear is enough depends on your atitude.I have had it a couple of times in the UK sitting at traffic lights and a plain clothed copper has got out a car behind me and had a quiet word.

Anyway you are leading the thread way off topic with all this talk of the UK.

[CarolJadzia]

Well the OP was reference riding in the UK but if you wish to get back to the Experience question then

"From a neurological viewpoint - young drivers resemble a full airbus speeding down a runway with vibrating engines while in the cockpit the navigation and monitoring instruments are still being. installed.”

http://www.ecodrive.org/download/downloads/ecowill_deliverable_31__compendium_for_ecodriving_education_in_driving_schools_european_english.pdf

Also if you want to get into some science there are some great articles on how the brain works that you will find on the nosurprise.org.uk/reading-list/

[papa al]

What qualifies as an experienced rider?

Interesting thread...

After all this discussion... May I add a simple humour note?

Who cares? If I'm "qualified", will I get a medal, a free beer, an extension of stay based on my contribution to the Thai Society? Please tick the appropriate box(es)

If I'm not, will I be sent to an "attitude readjustment centre" to improve my "skills"

Thanks for reading and ridding!

papa will buy you a free beer.

[BBJ]

...hence the desirability of off-road skills?

Exactly. Coppers have no chance of catching the UK chavs burning through the woods until they bring out the chopper-copper!

Damn it! They've since got wiser!

It seems chavery is still going on where I was brought up as a kid going by this 14 second clip in my search to find something remotely interesting on Canklow Woods.

I remember being hunted down by the the Boston Castle bowling keeper here for riding and doing bunny-hops around the green to the off road bits on my BMX. When my buddy and I finally upgraded to a 50cc Super Cub which we swapped our other buddy for a 22 pellet gun and a bag of candy fizzy flying saucers, we were then hunted down by the rozzers and caught at the top of a hill as the bike wasn't powerful enough to get us both up to the top. We only had the bike for an hour!

I believe this place has now been setup for downhill mountain bikers.

Edited December 11, 2015 by BBJ

[CarolJadzia]

It seems chavery is still going on where I was brought up as a kid going by this 14 second clip in my search to find something remotely interesting on Canklow Woods.

I remember being hunted down by the the Boston Castle bowling keeper here for riding and doing bunny-hops around the green to the off road bits on my BMX. When my buddy and I finally upgraded to a 50cc Super Cub which we swapped our other buddy for a 22 pellet gun and a bag of candy fizzy flying saucers, we were then hunted down by the rozzers and caught at the top of a hill as the bike wasn't powerful enough to get us both up to the top. We only had the bike for an hour!

I believe this place has now been setup for downhill mountain bikers.

Don't worry, the cat and mouse games do continue. I do agree a lot of off-road routes have been converted to mountain biking. But there are still teenagers finding short-cuts through woods. Whereas it used to be my mates and I doing it, now it's my mates kids and my son.

I have always found it funny when Police officers tell me that Enforcement works, my son is third generation 'Biker'. He pays as much attention to speed limits as my father did in the 50's on his cafe racer. People do not generally buy sports bikes in order to stick to speed limits.

I think my closest encounter was flashing a car at 105 MPH on the M5 motorway to get out of my way. The vehicle I was flashing flashed it's brake lights alternatively, I remember thinking "what sort of vehicle can flash it's brake lights alternatively?" Then it clicked, it was a police car! Did not pull me however. I assumed that being a very well known local Instructor possibly had it's perks. That was on my home patch. But elsewhere I know some forces are far less tolerant of speed limit infractions.

But that's what riders will do, why do we ride? There are lots of different answers but most people will include something about the 'thrill of going fast' or 'pushing the bike to the limit'. Lot's of people over the years have also tried to stop us. But nothing changes. Because the enforcement approach is wrong, it only works where enforced.

Not like we have been working on this for a while. Have a look at this from 50 years ago

[CarolJadzia]

You might also find this interesting.

Also here is a clip of an Advanced Police Rider talking through a ride filmed from a helicopter. One thing I never saw anyone doing while riding in Thailand was using the road to their advantage. Everyone seems to just follow the path of the road. I saw people taking racing lines into blind bends which put them into danger with oncoming vehicles, but nobody taking a wide line that gave them a clear view and scan of the road ahead to take advantage of a chance to get passed a vehicle. Whilst in the UK at Advanced Level 'making progress' is expected.

[English_M_in_Bkk]

You might also find this interesting.

Also here is a clip of an Advanced Police Rider talking through a ride filmed from a helicopter. One thing I never saw anyone doing while riding in Thailand was using the road to their advantage. Everyone seems to just follow the path of the road. I saw people taking racing lines into blind bends which put them into danger with oncoming vehicles, but nobody taking a wide line that gave them a clear view and scan of the road ahead to take advantage of a chance to get passed a vehicle. Whilst in the UK at Advanced Level 'making progress' is expected.

funny, I ride with plenty of experienced riders who can use the road to their advantage... guess we aren't all idiots

[CarolJadzia]

funny, I ride with plenty of experienced riders who can use the road to their advantage... guess we aren't all idiots

If I suggested that anyone who has not done Advanced Training is an idiot I would have very few friends left.

Already hard enough getting close friends just to take point on group rides!

About 80% of my friends have never had any official post test training.

But for many years the training has been left to the enforcers, we are working on changing that

[papa al]

You might also find this interesting.

Also here is a clip of an Advanced Police Rider talking through a ride filmed from a helicopter. One thing I never saw anyone doing while riding in Thailand was using the road to their advantage. Everyone seems to just follow the path of the road. I saw people taking racing lines into blind bends which put them into danger with oncoming vehicles, but nobody taking a wide line that gave them a clear view and scan of the road ahead to take advantage of a chance to get passed a vehicle. Whilst in the UK at Advanced Level 'making progress' is expected.

funny, I ride with plenty of experienced riders who can use the road to their advantage... guess we aren't all idiots

papa likes touring SEA on small, 150cc.

like to cruise at 120 or so. and passing necessitates using the road etc to full advantage.

no other choice.

a bit sceptible about all this advanced training that doesn't (reportedly) make for a better rider,

(by instructor afraid to ride in a city. very funny.)

was 11 when realised that most teachers weren't all that bright.

[those who can do, do; those who can't do, teach]?

heuristic approach for papa.

rather spend the money at a bar beer really.

getting around a lorry (love that quaint term for truck) on a steep uphill, twisty, pot-holed section ...

really one of the funner thing one can do wearing boots.

for an older bloke.

[Bung]

If some of your bones are held together with wire and or screws then you're experienced.

[Bung]

If some of your bones are held together with wire and or screws then you're experienced.