Thai farmers protest against bill on GMO farming

[jdlancaster]

Ive asked you several times to clarify yourself and quantify what is considered acceptable risk.. you say we can never know for sure... ( can never have a 0 % risk) ... just take a stand and specify exactly what you mean.... what do you mean? 0% or what number? I don't want to guess... I know what you said...I want to know what you mean

You catagorically stated

"That is not including that there are huge issues with the "precautionary principal", especially as you apply it."

Either tell me how I am applying PP with reference to my own words ( let's call that by means of citation)

Or withdraw the catagorical claim you made.

How about you just clarify your position.. then I can apologize if your position is not what I stated. Just explain explicitly what you position is. Spell it out for me... with maybe a p value or some other statistical reference... then I'll know... you only imply and that leaves room for interpretation.... IDK maybe you actually are ok with GMOs... maybe we agree 100%

Edited December 14, 2015 by jdlancaster

[attrayant]

In your post #89:

As a scientist in any field you would never claim there is zero doubt in the formulation of scientific models amd knowledge.

Yet when I and others raise the question of incomplete knowledge you point to the peer reviewed knowledge we have.

To quote Rumsfield "There are known knowns. These are the things we know that we know (your peer reviewed papers)
There are known unknowns, that is to say the things we know we don't know. (The 'further study' and acceped uncertainty in your peer reviwed papers)
But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. (My point of objection to your insistance that there are no safety risks from releasing GMO into our environment).

In this post and a few others you keep raising the specter of the uncertainty of scientific knowledge. Even though you haven't used the words "precautionary principle" in the above quote, that is the appeal you're making - it's the basis for your "point of objection" in your last sentence. If you're not invoking the PP when you talk about knowledge gaps, then what are you talking about?

[farmerjo]

All i know is that if your a farmer in thailand,you will grow feed grade crops,reason being that as good a quality it is the middleman will pay you

feed prices.Now a farmer wants to make a profit which means input costs v paid for produce.

The only thing non gmo crops has in its favour is being able to retain seed for your next crop even though most are outdated on yield and disease

resistance.You also pay pbr rights on the newer non gmo or hybrid seeds anyway.

This protest in the op is lead by non farmers.

[heina]

Here is addresses of the Bill backers. (Cold-blood murderers)

Monsanto Thailand Ltd.
555 Paholyothin Rd,
22th floor, Rasa Tower 1
Chatuchack
Bangkok 10900

The American Chamber of Commerce in Thailand

Office Hours: 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. and 1:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m., Monday through Friday
7th Floor, GPF Witthayu Tower A
93/1 Wireless Road, Lumpini, Pathumwan, Bangkok 10330

[jdlancaster]

Here is addresses of the Bill backers. (Cold-blood murderers)

Monsanto Thailand Ltd.

555 Paholyothin Rd,

22th floor, Rasa Tower 1

Chatuchack

Bangkok 10900

The American Chamber of Commerce in Thailand

Office Hours: 8:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m. and 1:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m., Monday through Friday

7th Floor, GPF Witthayu Tower A

93/1 Wireless Road, Lumpini, Pathumwan, Bangkok 10330

Murderers? Could you please tell me how many have died or gotten sick? please provide the reference and data for such a claim. I have already posted references how banning GMOs kills 1 million children a year... How do they die? what is the mechanism.. or disease? Do they shoot people? Please explain.

[GuestHouse]

jdlancaster,

On three occasions you have presented arguments from your own imagination as being my personal point of view.

And when I've asked you to either demonstrate where I have stated the views you imagined for me or withdraw the unfounded claim, you have dodged your responsibility not to misrepresent other people's views.

I doubt you know what you are debating with, my views or views you've made up for me.

Even Attrayan can't help you out, though I'll give him some credit for at least trying.

You meanwhile clearly find misrepresentation of others acceptable.

[GuestHouse]

In your post #89:

In this post and a few others you keep raising the specter of the uncertainty of scientific knowledge. Even though you haven't used the words "precautionary principle" in the above quote, that is the appeal you're making - it's the basis for your "point of objection" in your last sentence. If you're not invoking the PP when you talk about knowledge gaps, then what are you talking about?

Oh dear Atty... What's this now.. Are you now arguing against the words that you yourself admit I "haven't used"?

If you want to know what I mean in my post #89, read it again. I mean the things I said and you should not assume anything about what I did not say (That's JDL's department)

Edited December 14, 2015 by GuestHouse

[jdlancaster]

jdlancaster,

On three occasions you have presented arguments from your own imagination as being my personal point of view.

And when I've asked you to either demonstrate where I have stated the views you imagined for me or withdraw the unfounded claim, you have dodged your responsibility not to misrepresent other people's views.

I doubt you know what you are debating with, my views or views you've made up for me.

Even Attrayan can't help you out, though I'll give him some credit for at least trying.

You meanwhile clearly find misrepresentation of others acceptable.

Your dodging... what is your view on PP? be explicit ... what did you mean because I and attrayan don't know what you mean according to you. What level of risk do you accept? I've asked you atleast 3 times... but you dodge answering questions or give data. You said GMOs are not safe because of PP.... or did I misunderstand? Clear it up for me... easy... what level of risk do you accept? Clear it up for me... you are confusing me...

Edited December 14, 2015 by jdlancaster

[tomacht8]

The GMO giants work with lobbying, influence opinion, arguing scientifically only with excerpts, employ blog writers on mass,
Try to get as much patents on plants.
Hopefully Thailand throws out these GMO loan sharks.

[jdlancaster]

In your post #89:

In this post and a few others you keep raising the specter of the uncertainty of scientific knowledge. Even though you haven't used the words "precautionary principle" in the above quote, that is the appeal you're making - it's the basis for your "point of objection" in your last sentence. If you're not invoking the PP when you talk about knowledge gaps, then what are you talking about?

Oh dear Atty... What's this now.. Are you now arguing against the words that you yourself admit I "haven't used"?

If you want to know what I mean in my post #89, read it again. I mean the things I said and you should not assume anything about what I did not say (That's JDL's department)

Ok... you haven't said anything... so you have not supported that GMOs are dangerous... because you just don't know.... you are just asking questions... you aren't implying anything even though it appears that way.... my apologies... and all this time I thought you were against GMOs.. you were just asking questions because you don't know

[jdlancaster]

The GMO giants work with lobbying, influence opinion, arguing scientifically only with excerpts, employ blog writers on mass,

Try to get as much patents on plants.

Hopefully Thailand throws out these GMO loan sharks.

What is wrong with GMOs... How are they dangerous? What threat do they pose? How many people get sick a year from them? Which GMOs do it? How?

[GuestHouse]

JDL,

My objections to GMO are a whole lot wider than safety.

It's your assumptions that have lead you to believe otherwise.

[jdlancaster]

Please guest house... tell me... please... what do you mean... I'm begging you... tell me.... What is an ok level of safety... be specific... teach me

Show me the evidence... any... I want to see the truth...

and it's not my assumptions... it's your implications... but it's not important... tell me exactly.... show me the evidence

Edited December 14, 2015 by jdlancaster

[jdlancaster]

What are your objections!!!!! List them!!! All of them.

[jdlancaster]

JDL,

My objections to GMO are a whole lot wider than safety.

It's your assumptions that have lead you to believe otherwise.

What does that mean? What are your objections? all of them.

[tomacht8]

The GMO giants work with lobbying, influence opinion, arguing scientifically only with excerpts, employ blog writers on mass,

Try to get as much patents on plants.

Hopefully Thailand throws out these GMO loan sharks.

What is wrong with GMOs... How are they dangerous? What threat do they pose? How many people get sick a year from them? Which GMOs do it? How?

I will help you (to push up this threat, brings clicks and money)

What threat do they pose?

Countless numbers of threats.

99% are not explored in their interactions and long-term consequences.

In biological chains, economy, legislation, health and other subsystems.

Genetically it is possible to rebuild the tomato.

Let us take that a GMO company receives the patent on square tomatos.

Very useful, saves packaging material and saves fuel in logistics.

Environmentally friendly!

But in the long term the effect is unclear.

People who eat this GMO square tomatos regularly over time,

getting dumber, working as a blogwriter for the GMOs or getting red pimples on the ass.

To provide evidence for an lawsuit - action for damages, that the trigger was precisely this square tomato, is probably impossible.

That is the business model.

[GuestHouse]

What are your objections!!!!! List them!!! All of them.

Are you sure tou don't want to make some up for me from your own imagination?

[jdlancaster]

What are your objections!!!!! List them!!! All of them.

Are you sure tou don't want to make some up for me from your own imagination?

No, I've asked you several times... list them

[jdlancaster]

The GMO giants work with lobbying, influence opinion, arguing scientifically only with excerpts, employ blog writers on mass,

Try to get as much patents on plants.

Hopefully Thailand throws out these GMO loan sharks.

What is wrong with GMOs... How are they dangerous? What threat do they pose? How many people get sick a year from them? Which GMOs do it? How?

I will help you (to push up this threat, brings clicks and money)

What threat do they pose?

Countless numbers of threats.

99% are not explored in their interactions and long-term consequences.

In biological chains, economy, legislation, health and other subsystems.

Genetically it is possible to rebuild the tomato.

Let us take that a GMO company receives the patent on square tomatos.

Very useful, saves packaging material and saves fuel in logistics.

Environmentally friendly!

But in the long term the effect is unclear.

People who eat this GMO square tomatos regularly over time,

getting dumber, working as a blogwriter for the GMOs or getting red pimples on the ass.

To provide evidence for an lawsuit - action for damages, that the trigger was precisely this square tomato, is probably impossible.

That is the business model.

Countless number of threats? Please list ten.

What evidence do you have to support your claims? How do you know hybrid tomatoes don't do the same? How do you know organic tomatoes don't do the same? How do we know? What's the evidence? How do you know their business model? What about after the patent runs out? Monsanto's soybean roundup ready patent has expired... and the Open Source Seed Initiative... free GMOs... can't be possible?

[jdlancaster]

What are your objections!!!!! List them!!! All of them.

Are you sure tou don't want to make some up for me from your own imagination?

No, I've asked you several times... list them

We don't need this back and forth... my points are listed...

What are yours?

Why are you afraid to state your objections?

Why wouldn't these be front and foremost?

[tomacht8]

The GMO giants work with lobbying, influence opinion, arguing scientifically only with excerpts, employ blog writers on mass,

Try to get as much patents on plants.

Hopefully Thailand throws out these GMO loan sharks.

What is wrong with GMOs... How are they dangerous? What threat do they pose? How many people get sick a year from them? Which GMOs do it? How?

I will help you (to push up this threat, brings clicks and money)

What threat do they pose?

Countless numbers of threats.

99% are not explored in their interactions and long-term consequences.

In biological chains, economy, legislation, health and other subsystems.

Genetically it is possible to rebuild the tomato.

Let us take that a GMO company receives the patent on square tomatos.

Very useful, saves packaging material and saves fuel in logistics.

Environmentally friendly!

But in the long term the effect is unclear.

People who eat this GMO square tomatos regularly over time,

getting dumber, working as a blogwriter for the GMOs or getting red pimples on the ass.

To provide evidence for an lawsuit - action for damages, that the trigger was precisely this square tomato, is probably impossible.

That is the business model.

Countless number of threats? Please list ten.

What evidence do you have to support your claims? How do you know hybrid tomatoes don't do the same? How do you know organic tomatoes don't do the same? How do we know? What's the evidence? How do you know their business model? What about after the patent runs out? Monsanto's soybean roundup ready patent has expired... and the Open Source Seed Initiative... free GMOs... can't be possible?

Countless number of threats?

Please list ten.

Just try now to answer your question by yourself!

So many have already here been mentioned.

[jdlancaster]

tomacht8, What are these threats that have been mentioned? I've been here since the beginning of the thread... everyone says there are threats, but nobody mentions them, and nobody shows experiments... I've tried to answer it myself already... can't find anything... help me out.. I've spent hours looking

This is not including that.... you've made a claim... now you should give supporting information...

Edited December 14, 2015 by jdlancaster

[GuestHouse]

What are your objections!!!!! List them!!! All of them.

Are you sure tou don't want to make some up for me from your own imagination?

No, I've asked you several times... list them

You've also been rather busy making up points of view and attributing them to me.

[GuestHouse]

So let's try this for size.

---

Putting aside arguments about the veracity of claims by the pro and anti GMO camps (and of course assuming that people may be decided as simply pro or anti GMO).

Let us just examine some of the claimed impacts

Food safety, Bio Diversity, Economic, Nutritional, Food security, Access to seeds, Social, Equality of access, Global markets, Local markets, Ethics of owning a gene, small scale and subsistence farming, traditional crop products, GMO contamination to other strains of same species, liability and of course risk.

Without even discussing the extent or even existence of these impacts, these are impacts which are frequently discussed in relation to GMO and which even if we do not agree with the positive/negative view of any one of these issues, we most of us will agree these are amongst the many issues and benefits, concerns or fears raised.

Do you agree?

[jdlancaster]

Guesthouse. ... you are implying a side... but not explicitly stating your views on the subjects you stated... in which case you will state "I never said that" as a defence... what are you saying about eqch of those issues and what evidence do you have to support it?

Just because an issue is raised by a large segment of the population doesn't give it credence... its a logical fallacy called argumentumad populum...

state your positions explicitly on all the issues you just raised and I will give a counter point or agree with u depending on the side picked

[GuestHouse]

JDL, I have been very clear to deliberately state that I'm putting aside any arguments about the veracity of the issues. I'm not saying that they are right or wrong on the basis of a the beliefs of a large number of people (argumentum ad poulum) I'm saying these are amongst the range of issues raised on both sides of the debate.

I'm not making any judgement on the varacity of the claims against each concern or asking you to make any judgement on the veracity of the claims made for these concerns.

I'm simply asking do you agree that the concerns I listed are amongst those commonly voiced in the various debates about GMO by either or both sides of the argument?

I can't tell you what my concern is until we agree that we are discussing the same issues and I can't see anything contentious in the list I gave.

So please once again:

Putting aside arguments about the veracity of claims by the pro and anti GMO camps (and of course assuming that people may be decided as simply pro or anti GMO).

Let us just examine some of the claimed impacts

Food safety, Bio Diversity, Economic, Nutritional, Food security, Access to seeds, Social, Equality of access, Global markets, Local markets, Ethics of owning a gene, small scale and subsistence farming, traditional crop products, GMO contamination to other strains of same species, liability and of course risk.

Without even discussing the extent or even existence of these impacts, these are impacts which are frequently discussed in relation to GMO and which even if we do not agree with the positive/negative view of any one of these issues, we most of us will agree these are amongst the many issues and benefits, concerns or fears raised.

Do you agree?

Edited December 14, 2015 by GuestHouse

[jdlancaster]

Please once again stop avoiding stating your position. ..you are avoiding statiing your position. ... I've been asking since the beginning of this thread... state your position and I will answer any questions. .. but you won't. ... my position is clear... and been supported with evidence. ......

[jdlancaster]

I only want to know your point of view.... you and only you.... you who has asked leading questions and then denied what they implied... I need your point of view... its the only way to have a point of reference to what you are talking about. ... because its not clear. .. what did you mean by pp? What percent clarify our misunderstanding. ..

[GuestHouse]

Please once again stop avoiding stating your position. ..you are avoiding statiing your position. ... I've been asking since the beginning of this thread... state your position and I will answer any questions. .. but you won't. ... my position is clear... and been supported with evidence. ......

JDL,

I'll state my position when we agree the range of issues we are talking about. I've given them above, I've framed my question to you such that we don't have to agree on the positives and negatives, or even if there are positives or negatives, simply that the list of issues are amongst those frequently raised by both sides of the debate.

GMO is a hugely wide subject, by agreeing the relatively restricted list of issues I have give I can then state my case in the context of what we agree on, not on what we do not agree on.

So lets agree a range of issues and then I'll make my case and you then get the chance to answer my concerns.

Think of in terms of a scientific enquiry and setting the context of the investigation, you can then refer to the scientific literature in context of what is after all quite a broad range of issues but not the endless issues we could easily get bogged down in.

Have a look at the list again, it's not going to bite you.

Edited December 14, 2015 by GuestHouse

[jdlancaster]

You are currently. .. moving the goal post... along with the fallacy of many questions. ...