HMRC Goes Paperless

[AyG]

Sorry if this is old news, but I hardly ever log on to the HMRC's online service. It's almost totally useless to expats who have to submit their tax returns on paper (or pay for expensive software to do so). However, when I did so earlier today I was pleased to see that HMRC will send out correspondence by email, rather than by mail, if you so wish. That should speed things up quite a bit.

[lungbing]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

[AyG]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

I presume you're not an expat. Non-residents are required to fill in supplementary form SA109 ("Residence, Remittance Basis etc."). This form can't be filled in on line at the HMRC website. You either have to pay for third party software or submit a paper return. (Part electronic/part paper is not accepted.)

[topt]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

I presume you're not an expat. Non-residents are required to fill in supplementary form SA109 ("Residence, Remittance Basis etc."). This form can't be filled in on line at the HMRC website. You either have to pay for third party software or submit a paper return. (Part electronic/part paper is not accepted.)

AyG I am surprised to hear you say that. I have been non resident since 2008 and have not filed a tax return since that time - either online as I used to or in paper form. I have had several communications with HMRC, most recently last year, and even with property income was not asked to file.

I believe your statement is incorrect and seem to remember getting a letter originally saying I no longer needed to file unless circumstances changed. I even claimed for tax on interest refunds in the first couple of years

[AyG]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

I presume you're not an expat. Non-residents are required to fill in supplementary form SA109 ("Residence, Remittance Basis etc."). This form can't be filled in on line at the HMRC website. You either have to pay for third party software or submit a paper return. (Part electronic/part paper is not accepted.)

AyG I am surprised to hear you say that. I have been non resident since 2008 and have not filed a tax return since that time - either online as I used to or in paper form. I have had several communications with HMRC, most recently last year, and even with property income was not asked to file.

I believe your statement is incorrect and seem to remember getting a letter originally saying I no longer needed to file unless circumstances changed. I even claimed for tax on interest refunds in the first couple of years

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't saying that all non-residents have to file a tax return each year. I was saying that if one does (or wants to), one can't use the HMRC website to do so since it doesn't support one of the required forms.

[topt]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

I presume you're not an expat. Non-residents are required to fill in supplementary form SA109 ("Residence, Remittance Basis etc."). This form can't be filled in on line at the HMRC website. You either have to pay for third party software or submit a paper return. (Part electronic/part paper is not accepted.)

AyG I am surprised to hear you say that. I have been non resident since 2008 and have not filed a tax return since that time - either online as I used to or in paper form. I have had several communications with HMRC, most recently last year, and even with property income was not asked to file.

I believe your statement is incorrect and seem to remember getting a letter originally saying I no longer needed to file unless circumstances changed. I even claimed for tax on interest refunds in the first couple of years

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't saying that all non-residents have to file a tax return each year. I was saying that if one does (or wants to), one can't use the HMRC website to do so since it doesn't support one of the required forms.

Apologies then. I was aware of that and was hoping that your topic title meant that it had changed but obviously not.

[bouph12]

I am liable to pay tax on a combination of a company pension and rental/investment income.

Despite what it says on the on-line form about not using it if you are an ex-pat, they have had no problem accepting returns from me for the last 3 years without the use of third party software.

HMRC are aware that I've been non-resident for several years.

[Eff1n2ret]

I am liable to pay tax on a combination of a company pension and rental/investment income.

Despite what it says on the on-line form about not using it if you are an ex-pat, they have had no problem accepting returns from me for the last 3 years without the use of third party software.

HMRC are aware that I've been non-resident for several years.

Exactly the same for me. I've never completed an SA109.

[AyG]

I presume HMRC's lack of interest in the SA109 is that not completing it only means that your tax may be higher than otherwise. In particular, on dividend income, as non-resident there is no further tax to pay for non-resident higher rate tax payers.

I suspect that not completing the form might also cause problems if you wanted to be deemed non-domiciled for inheritance tax purposes since you are not declaring yourself non-resident each year.

[OJAS]

I presume HMRC's lack of interest in the SA109 is that not completing it only means that your tax may be higher than otherwise. In particular, on dividend income, as non-resident there is no further tax to pay for non-resident higher rate tax payers.

I suspect that not completing the form might also cause problems if you wanted to be deemed non-domiciled for inheritance tax purposes since you are not declaring yourself non-resident each year.

SantiSuk has made some telling comments on this whole issue in the thread at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/872631-when-do-i-become-a-uk-non-resident/ . In practical terms, it would appear from what he has said that not declaring our non-residency status to HMRC would be likely to make the greatest difference if we held vast amounts in high-interest accounts in LOS and/or were taxed on a significant proportion of our UK-derived income at the higher 40% rate.

I do, though, agree 100% with you that it appears totally absurd that those of us who have chosen to declare our non-residency status to HMRC for whatever reason (as I have also done) are unable to file our tax returns online without needing to seek recourse to the services of commercial software suppliers. I really find it hard to believe that the relatively little information sought in the SA109 pages is such that it cannot readily be included in the standard online return. And the services of commercial software suppliers do not come cheaply: SantiSuk, for example, referred in the other thread to an instance where he was charged £24 by one of these suppliers!

I must admit that, initially, I was horrified by the title of this thread since it implied (to me at any rate) that HMRC were discontinuing paper returns and forcing all of us who had declared non-residency status to go down the online commercial software supplier route instead. I am therefore mighty relieved that this will not be the case!

Edited December 11, 2015 by OJAS

[evadgib]

Return your Self Assessment and find your inner peace

[OJAS]

In practical terms, it would appear from what he has said that not declaring our non-residency status to HMRC would be likely to make the greatest difference if we held vast amounts in high-interest accounts in LOS and/or were taxed on a significant proportion of our UK-derived income at the higher 40% rate.

As SatiSuk explained in the other thread, if we didn't declare our non-residency status to HMRC we would have to include details of interest payments derived in Thailand in our tax returns since these would be taxable at the difference between the Thai rate (15%) and the relevant UK rate. This would be 5% for the standard 20% rate and 25% for the higher 40% rate. Therefore, the difference would, of course, still be 25% even if only as little as £1 of your UK-generated income was taxable at the 40% rate.

In practice, though, probably an academic point for 99.99% of us!

[Eff1n2ret]

I do, though, agree 100% with you that it appears totally absurd that those of us who have chosen to declare our non-residency status to HMRC for whatever reason (as I have also done) are unable to file our tax returns online without needing to seek recourse to the services of commercial software suppliers.

Sorry, I don't understand this. For the first couple of years when I came here I submitted a paper return, then there was a glitch in the third year when I missed the October 31 deadline for paper filing because their form went astray. It was HMRC themselves who suggested that I file online, and I registered via the 'Government Gateway' system. There is no bar to doing so if you have an overseas address. I've found it much easier and quicker to file online, and one year when I was due a rebate it was in my (UK) bank account within a week of filing.

If you haven't filed on paper this year, it's a bit late to set up the Government Gateway account, because the verification process includes them sending you some sort of password by post, not good over the Christmas period, and you could be cutting it fine to get registered and file online before Jan 30th. Once you are registered it is quite user-friendly.

[billd766]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

I presume you're not an expat. Non-residents are required to fill in supplementary form SA109 ("Residence, Remittance Basis etc."). This form can't be filled in on line at the HMRC website. You either have to pay for third party software or submit a paper return. (Part electronic/part paper is not accepted.)

Not strictly correct. I have been an expat for years and for the last 15 of them I have been doing mine online using proprietary software in the early years and the HMRC tax return form for about 10 years without any problem.

[AyG]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

I presume you're not an expat. Non-residents are required to fill in supplementary form SA109 ("Residence, Remittance Basis etc."). This form can't be filled in on line at the HMRC website. You either have to pay for third party software or submit a paper return. (Part electronic/part paper is not accepted.)

Not strictly correct. I have been an expat for years and for the last 15 of them I have been doing mine online using proprietary software in the early years and the HMRC tax return form for about 10 years without any problem.

The HMRC system explicitly states that it must not be used by non-residents and that non-residents should make a paper return.

The SA100 notes (SA150) state on page 3:

You should fill in the Residence, remittance basis etc pages if you:

are not a UK resident

The on-line system doesn't cover these pages (SA109).

In short, you've not been following the rules for about 10 years.

[billd766]

Until I became a pensioner 2 years ago, I always filed my tax return online via the online service. I have not completed a paper return in 15 years. I must admit though that my tax affairs are straightforward, if not downright simple. When i became a pensioner HMRC wrote to me and said they didn't even want an electronic return anymore as PAYE covered my affairs, no problem.

I presume you're not an expat. Non-residents are required to fill in supplementary form SA109 ("Residence, Remittance Basis etc."). This form can't be filled in on line at the HMRC website. You either have to pay for third party software or submit a paper return. (Part electronic/part paper is not accepted.)

Not strictly correct. I have been an expat for years and for the last 15 of them I have been doing mine online using proprietary software in the early years and the HMRC tax return form for about 10 years without any problem.

The HMRC system explicitly states that it must not be used by non-residents and that non-residents should make a paper return.

The SA100 notes (SA150) state on page 3:

You should fill in the Residence, remittance basis etc pages if you:

are not a UK resident

The on-line system doesn't cover these pages (SA109).

In short, you've not been following the rules for about 10 years.

If HMRC required me to fill in the form SA109 do you not think that in those 10 years that they would have mentioned it. After all, they have my home address here in Thailand, my phone number, probably my email, they control my pensions, they have many people working within their system who should know what they require.

If they want me to fill one in all they have to do is send me a letter and the form and I will do it. If they can't be bothered to do that in the last 10 years then it can't be that important.

BTW I have been following the rules that HMRC want me to follow. In short, it is only YOUR opinion that says I am not following the rules for the last 10 years and not that of HMRC. I know who I take the most notice of.

Nobody else on this thread seems to agree with you either.

[evadgib]

New online account to manage tax affairs launched

HM Revenue and Customs has introduced an easier way for self-assessing taxpayers to work out how they owe.

It is called the Personal Tax Account and it will work in a similar way to online banking.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35091321

Edited December 14, 2015 by evadgib

[evadgib]

David Gauke sets out vision for making tax digital

(Some may find the inner link useful)

Edited December 15, 2015 by evadgib

[bouph12]

David Gauke sets out vision for making tax digital

(Some may find the inner link useful)

I read from the interesting link that the HMRC 24 hour virtual assistant is called "Ask Ruth".

I believe this in homage to the renowned sex therapist Dr. Ruth, who for 40 years has also been advising people on how to get screwed.