Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[phuketandsee]

Its quite simple they found semen in the girl they got a dna profile, they compared it to 200 people on the island and found a match with the 2 boys. The rest of the evidence proves that they were at the scene. Whatever happened to the original samples is irrelevant as the profile from the original samples is what was used as evidence. I dont think that it was contested by the defence. Its pretty overwhelming for anyone who can see the forest for the trees.

Everything you said is according to the RTP. Let me ask you, if you were on a jury in your home country and the only "evidence" you were provided with was what the police alleged (i.e. they provided no concrete, forensically verifiable evidence), would you convict? And convict of murder knowing a death sentence was attached and not just rape? Ask yourself honestly, would you?

Now add the RTP's reputation into the mix and the well documented <deleted>>-ups in this case?

Still seeing the forest? The RTP never presented any "trees"

I was not in the court room and I doubt you were either but if the evidence was inadequate don't you think the defence would have capitalized on this and fought to have the case thrown out? My understanding is that they did not contest this evidence.

I note you have not answered my question - would you vote to convict based solely on police say-so?

Right, didn't think so.

[smedly]

As much I love living in Thailand (and I truly do), things like this are the reason why it will continue to be considered a third world country. I don't claim to know all the facts, but the one fact I do know is that given the considerate amount of flaws in the investigative process the case should have been thrown out whether they are guilty or not.

"The case should have been thrown out whether they are guilty or not"

Are you sure you mean that? - so, two murderers should be released because of technicalities!! Is that real justice? Thank god the judges were sensible enough to ignore all that baloney about the lies of torture and saw through the defences evidence as being too weak and unsubstantial with the prosecutions DNA evidence carrying the day. I applaud the judges for their work in coming to the correct verdict!!

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

[DiscoDan]

if DNA is the vital evidence why is it not forthcoming from the British experts who came here to recheck the DNA. We have not nor has anyone

publically heard their findings. But an anonymos source supposedly leaked that the Dna was damaged and could not be considered as

conclusive evidence. IF this is true then I'm of the opinion that this was a face saving trial.

British authorities are not allowed to be involved as it is a death penalty case,

[CP3]

The best we can expect here is def make an appeal and they will change the sentence to manslaughter and life sentence. Myanmar will request to ship them back. Thai saves their face and Myanmar gov takes credit..Win Win.. No chance the sentence will be turned in this country.

[beammeup]

Does anyone really know if the original semen samples were taken and the DNA testing was done to the correct Thai standards? People keep saying that it wasnt done to International standards and wasnt verified, chain of custody etc... Perhaps all that is required in the Thai justice system is that it was done to the correct Thai standards.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed as well as a reply.

[smedly]

The best we can expect here is def make an appeal and they will change the sentence to manslaughter and life sentence. Myanmar will request to ship them back. Thai saves their face and Myanmar gov takes credit..Win Win.. No chance the sentence will be turned in this country.

nobody would be satisfied with manslaughter, if they did it hang them high, if they didn't then release them and go after the actual people who committed this evil deed and "hang them"

as a side note, the Thai DNA samples they claim no longer exist are likely available from the UK if they ask for them provided of course that evidence wasn't erased from the bodies before sending them back to the UK

I am waiting for the release of autopsy reports from the uK, although since the sentence has been appealed that may not happen until the case has run through all the apeals, it is up to the UK to decide on that.

[asiamaster]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

[smedly]

Does anyone really know if the original semen samples were taken and the DNA testing was done to the correct Thai standards? People keep saying that it wasnt done to International standards and wasnt verified, chain of custody etc... Perhaps all that is required in the Thai justice system is that it was done to the correct Thai standards.

there is only one standard, ask Dr Porntip who heads the official internationally recognised forensic science authority in Thailand who were excluded from involvement in this case

[smedly]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

https://au.linkedin.com/in/jane-taupin-14790722

[Jim walker]

Surely no one can argue with the DNA from the hoe handle as this was the murder weapon and the Thai courts would have no problem letting an independent laboratory just confirm their DNA evidence, but also and due to the corruption and miss handling of the case any other evidence by dishonest police or court officials who could be bought off should be dismissed or for any other DNA tests of samples that could have been added to victims or crime scene after the crime these should also be taken with a pinch of salt. And just stick with evidence produced from murder weapon so that the family might get an honest closure to the crime, and be able to stand up and say justice has now been done.

[asiamaster]

Does anyone really know if the original semen samples were taken and the DNA testing was done to the correct Thai standards? People keep saying that it wasnt done to International standards and wasnt verified, chain of custody etc... Perhaps all that is required in the Thai justice system is that it was done to the correct Thai standards.

there is only one standard, ask Dr Porntip who heads the official internationally recognised forensic science authority in Thailand who were excluded from involvement in this case

aha you recognised your mistake Pornthip not Taupin. But can you prove to me that she was not involved in this case?

Edited December 26, 2015 by asiamaster

[StealthEnergiser]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.

Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.

She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.

[Briggsy]

The whole thing including this first court verdict is a scripted pantomime. I am sure the police, the judiciary, the Burmese embassy know what will happen next, perhaps even the defence team know it too. It is pure theatre and bears no relation to fact.

The wholesale deleting of Facebook records, the lack of phone call records, the lack of any CCTV recordings from the island, the lack of any testimony from anyone in the AC Bar, the absurd re-enactment in front of nonplussed unimpressed Koh Tao residents, the even more absurd testing of Warot Toovichien in front of the national press accompanied by his politician dad and the national police chief! The entire chabang is ridiculous. Lie after lie after lie from the police over this.

I am confident that the death sentence will not be carried out. I suspect the Burmese pair have a long time in prison yet. Look at similar cases where improbable scapegoats have been used. The Kelvin Bourke murder. The Rachaburi school bus attack. Eventually the scapegoats are released by a higher court.

[lucky11]

As much I love living in Thailand (and I truly do), things like this are the reason why it will continue to be considered a third world country. I don't claim to know all the facts, but the one fact I do know is that given the considerate amount of flaws in the investigative process the case should have been thrown out whether they are guilty or not.

"The case should have been thrown out whether they are guilty or not"

Are you sure you mean that? - so, two murderers should be released because of technicalities!! Is that real justice? Thank god the judges were sensible enough to ignore all that baloney about the lies of torture and saw through the defences evidence as being too weak and unsubstantial with the prosecutions DNA evidence carrying the day. I applaud the judges for their work in coming to the correct verdict!!

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:

Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

[StealthEnergiser]

"The case files of the Thai forensic lab should have been provided to the defence," Ms Taupin said.

"This is so the scientific data contained within, and used to provide conclusions, could be examined for a scientific review.

"The essence of scientific method is the testing and review of hypotheses. If these are not viewed, or even stated, then this does not inspire confidence in the scientific analysis.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35170419

[MrTee]

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.[/size]

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:

[/size]Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .[/size]

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

Where there is no chain of custody DNA evidence is meaningless. Simple are that.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, unless you have an agenda.

[asiamaster]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.

Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.

She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.

okay I stand corrected. But Smedly claims that also Dr. Pornthip was excluded from the case which is not correct.

[beammeup]

so who did the original DNA testing and was it up to the standards of the Thai judicial system. I can not believe that only Porntip is capable of DNA testing in Thailand.

[TPI]

You can forget about reasonable doubt. There is no jury. And if there was it would be all Thais and they would still ne found guilty

One thing that is present and undeniable in in Thailand is Thais are Patriots. Absent in most western countries. In the regard they tend to stick together. The chance of any acquittal as miniscule at best...I dont think Thais really know what the letters DNA stand for

Nonsense. Thais would see the flaws in this case as well as anyone else. You are being overtly negative of a nation based on your prejudices.

Really! Boy, I want to live on your planet!

[Bluespunk]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.

Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.

She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.

okay I stand corrected. But Smedly claims that also Dr. Pornthip was excluded from the case which is not correct.

From BBC report on case

"Thailand's best-known forensic scientist, Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand, whose institute was not allowed any involvement in the investigation, testified at the trial that the crime scene had been poorly managed and evidence improperly collected."

[lucky11]

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.[/size]

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:

[/size]Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .[/size]

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

Where there is no chain of custody DNA evidence is meaningless. Simple are that.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, unless you have an agenda.

An agenda? How and what could that be?

I'm simply a poster that believes that they are guilty of rape and murder and I'm just giving my views as to this fact.

[MrTee]

Nonsense. Thais would see the flaws in this case as well as anyone else. You are being overtly negative of a nation based on your prejudices.

Really! Boy, I want to live on your planet!

Just about every Thai I have spoken to that knows about the case does not support this guilty verdict.

1000s of facebook posts by Thais do not support this guilty verdict..

Try living on this planet for at least part of the day

[Bluespunk]

You can forget about reasonable doubt. There is no jury. And if there was it would be all Thais and they would still ne found guilty

One thing that is present and undeniable in in Thailand is Thais are Patriots. Absent in most western countries. In the regard they tend to stick together. The chance of any acquittal as miniscule at best...I dont think Thais really know what the letters DNA stand for

Nonsense. Thais would see the flaws in this case as well as anyone else. You are being overtly negative of a nation based on your prejudices.

Really! Boy, I want to live on your planet!

You do. You just choose to view it through blinkered shades.

[StealthEnergiser]

As much I love living in Thailand (and I truly do), things like this are the reason why it will continue to be considered a third world country. I don't claim to know all the facts, but the one fact I do know is that given the considerate amount of flaws in the investigative process the case should have been thrown out whether they are guilty or not.

"The case should have been thrown out whether they are guilty or not"

Are you sure you mean that? - so, two murderers should be released because of technicalities!! Is that real justice? Thank god the judges were sensible enough to ignore all that baloney about the lies of torture and saw through the defences evidence as being too weak and unsubstantial with the prosecutions DNA evidence carrying the day. I applaud the judges for their work in coming to the correct verdict!!

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

From the BBC website.

Ms Taupin was not allowed to testify, one of several inexplicable decisions by the defence, but she highlighted several important aspects of DNA testing which neither the defence team, the police, nor the judges appeared to understand.

It seems that the seven (yes seven) so called top notch defence lawyers didn't have a clue what she was going on about and they decided/chose not to include her in the defences evidence as she could not add anything to their already weak evidence!!

This is what this top expert came up with in her conclusions:

Jane Taupin, a renowned Australian forensic scientist brought in by the defence team, questioned the plausibility of working this quickly, saying "extracting DNA from mixed samples was difficult and time-consuming". Wow, that is staggering information!! I can see why they chose not to include her now .

You said "it doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not" so you are saying that even if they were guilty ie: they DID rape her and kill them both - because they were tortured (no proof of this by the way) and didn't have lawyers in attendance at times when they should have been represented then they should have been released. So what conspired in the course of the case overrides whether they committed this crime or not. Unbelievable!!

Making jokes about an expert witness with very high qualifications is showing how immature you are if the B2 were your children and and she volunteered to help you would you make a joke about it.???

This topic is about death penalty case and you make fun of it.

[DiscoDan]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.

Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.

She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.

Yes and the defense decided not to let her take the stand, not the prosecution.

[lucky11]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.

Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.

She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.

...............but not a lot of help in Thailand, evidently!!

[KarenBravo]

The most dangerous part of the system is that:-

1. There are no court transcripts.

2. The judges decisions cannot be questioned.

[BwindiBoy]

There are so many posts to wade through here I would like to ask a simple question to get something clear.

Has any DNA belonging to the B2 been found on or in either of the murdered people? The UK examination said there was no sign of rape but what of foreign DNA?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but just too many posts to check.

Yes It was the DNA found in Hannah, DNA matched both rapists. also the defense were offered to retest it but turned it down instead focusing on the hoe that wasn't even part of the prosecutions case.

Incorrect. Stop spreading misinformation. The original DNA sperm samples, if they actually existed, were said to be all used up (which in itself is tantamount to a blatant untruth). The defence was offered a half-way house DNA profile which could have come from anywhere or anybody. Even spittle. That was rightly rejected by the defence.

You are the on spreading misinformation all samples were replicated, even if they produced original sperm you lot would of said the police must have given the B2 some hand relief

It sounds like you would have been over-qualified for that task!

[lucky11]

for gods sake, are you actually listening to yourself, the very fact of these technicalities as you call them then makes it impossible to say they are guilty, you have to prove they are guilty through sound verifiable evidence, what on earth is so difficult to understand about that, and may I also add, the judges are not DNA experts it is impossible for them to conclude anything about DNA, they must seek the advise of experts and take them under advisement, Dr Taupin was a renowned expert and she wasn't even allowed to testify in court, sounds to me like they didn't want to hear it spelled out to them on record - something they would have had difficulty ignoring, and do you think Dr Taupin was going to get up there and tell lies - I don't think so

Who is Dr. Taupin? Or did you perhaps mean Dr. Pornthip? And who says she did not testify?

Jane Taupin is an internationally recognised forensic science expert in her field. She is currently a self-employed national and international forensic consultant and trainer.

Jane has been an operational forensic scientist for over 25 years in both Australia and England. She has published many works, including journal articles, books, bulletins and conference papers.

She has been an expert witness in over 140 trials, including more than 40 murder trials. She has also been the lead biologist at numerous crimes scenes in Australia and England.

Yes and the defense decided not to let her take the stand, not the prosecution.

Correct!! DD - you've just ruined their story, shame on you!!