Koh Tao debacle: Shoddy work from beginning to end

[TheLobster]

From the trial report:

According to the CCTV footage, the Second Deceased was found walking into the AC Bar with her friends at 00.15 hrs, whereas the Second Deceased walked into the AC Bar at 02.08.37 hrs. Thereafter, both Deceased were never found walking out of the Bar until their bodies were found.

So no witnesses or CCTV footage of Hannah or David after entering AC Bar ............... Impossible?

[boomerangutang]

From the trial report:

According to the CCTV footage, the Second Deceased was found walking into the AC Bar with her friends at 00.15 hrs, whereas the Second Deceased walked into the AC Bar at 02.08.37 hrs. Thereafter, both Deceased were never found walking out of the Bar until their bodies were found.

So no witnesses or CCTV footage of Hannah or David after entering AC Bar ............... Impossible?

Not impossible. Any CCTV which doesn't implicate the scapegoats, wasn't shown to the court or released to the public domain. Any CCTV which might have shown other culprits in the crime (friends and relatives of Mon) was either withheld from Mon's cop friends or destroyed. It's purported that Mon (and other bar owners?) wouldn't release CCTV to his cop friends. If that's true, that's against the law - well, it is in western countries. In Thailand it's par for the course. Note, there was no mention of what went on in AC and In Touch bars that night, prior to the crime, despite claims that David and Hannah were there, and claims there were one of more altercations. Message from the court: We don't want to hear or see anything which doesn't implicate the B2.

Below is what RTP police should invest in. . . . . . .

[JLCrab]

Why should they have to spend $5.95 -- didn't you send them your memo on how to manage a crime scene investigation for free?

[boomerangutang]

Why should they have to spend $5.95 -- didn't you send them your memo on how to manage a crime scene investigation for free?

I am the last person the RTP would come to for crime-scene-investigation advice. I would encourage them to learn and employ professional procedures to gauge who most likely did the crime. They want none of that. RTP only want to find what their superiors tell them to find. What motivates their superiors to get fixated on a certain resolution? It wouldn't be an offer of $12 million, would it? Nawww, a giant gift of money wouldn't be so motivating, would it? Perish the thought.

[JLCrab]

Why should they have to spend $5.95 -- didn't you send them your memo on how to manage a crime scene investigation for free?

I am the last person the RTP would come to for crime-scene-investigation advice. I would encourage them to learn and employ professional procedures to gauge who most likely did the crime. They want none of that. RTP only want to find what their superiors tell them to find. What motivates their superiors to get fixated on a certain resolution? It wouldn't be an offer of $12 million, would it? Nawww, a giant gift of money wouldn't be so motivating, would it? Perish the thought.

I didn't say they would come to you -- I just asked whether you had sent in your memo like you once said that you might. I remember because I then said to send it in because every law enforcement agency most likely has a special department to deal with entreaties from nut cases.

[boomerangutang]

Why should they have to spend $5.95 -- didn't you send them your memo on how to manage a crime scene investigation for free?

I am the last person the RTP would come to for crime-scene-investigation advice. I would encourage them to learn and employ professional procedures to gauge who most likely did the crime. They want none of that. RTP only want to find what their superiors tell them to find. What motivates their superiors to get fixated on a certain resolution? It wouldn't be an offer of $12 million, would it? Nawww, a giant gift of money wouldn't be so motivating, would it? Perish the thought.

I didn't say they would come to you -- I just asked whether you had sent in your memo like you once said that you might. I remember because I then said to send it in because every law enforcement agency most likely has a special department to deal with entreaties from nut cases.

Sure, and when I send a memo to the KT police (suggesting how to investigate a crime), I might as well send a memo to the Sangha to suggest they don't make such a racket with blasting noise at 5 am throughout a ten square mile radius of nearby neighborhoods. Should be just as rosy a reception at each place, don't you think?

[Wilsonandson]

The DNA evidence is too weak.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Koh-Tao-murder-case-based-on-dubious-DNA-30277052.html

[JLCrab]

<snip>

A phone call or visit to Nok Air top staff would be useful. <snip2>

why -- to ask them if a wet passenger showed up early on 15 SEP 2014 at one of their airports? Why not ask them instead -- maybe they would remember

[somo]

As boomerangutang says, swimming at 1am (estimated time ) when it is raining is a very unusual thing for Asian. Then having clothes stolen is also an unusual event. Guitar yes, phones yes, but clothes? ??hmmm.

What is also extremely unusual is Muang Muang getting up at 4.30 in the morning leaving his girlfriend and going to wake up b2 at 5am. He says he left his guitar with his friends, why would he be so worried about it , that would cause him to get out of bed so early. We all know island life. Most people workers and tourist sleep at 2 or 3 am. Especially bar workers get up anywhere from 10 oclock to midday ready to work through the night. I think it is very unusual that Muang Muang was up so early. I'm just not buying the mon theory sorry, there is absolutely nothing on him. He was arrested because of sean, but around about the same time the friend came forward with David's phone. that's why the investigation turned. Before the discovery of the phone, the police were grabbing at straws every where. Altogether there were 5 burmese. Each one of them by their own testimony has some connection to the victims. Nobody else has been shown to have a connection in any way.

So going for a night swim, being the subject of theft, waking up early and worrying about a guitar proves they raped and murdered the victims!! Bit of a stretch of anyones imagination except yours for some reason.

Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated? That in itself is much more suspicious than any of the behaviour you mention above.

[JLCrab]

As boomerangutang says, swimming at 1am (estimated time ) when it is raining is a very unusual thing for Asian. Then having clothes stolen is also an unusual event. Guitar yes, phones yes, but clothes? ??hmmm.

What is also extremely unusual is Muang Muang getting up at 4.30 in the morning leaving his girlfriend and going to wake up b2 at 5am. He says he left his guitar with his friends, why would he be so worried about it , that would cause him to get out of bed so early. We all know island life. Most people workers and tourist sleep at 2 or 3 am. Especially bar workers get up anywhere from 10 oclock to midday ready to work through the night. I think it is very unusual that Muang Muang was up so early. I'm just not buying the mon theory sorry, there is absolutely nothing on him. He was arrested because of sean, but around about the same time the friend came forward with David's phone. that's why the investigation turned. Before the discovery of the phone, the police were grabbing at straws every where. Altogether there were 5 burmese. Each one of them by their own testimony has some connection to the victims. Nobody else has been shown to have a connection in any way.

So going for a night swim, being the subject of theft, waking up early and worrying about a guitar proves they raped and murdered the victims!! Bit of a stretch of anyones imagination except yours for some reason.

Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated? That in itself is much more suspicious than any of the behaviour you mention above.

The Judge panel found the 2 Burmese guilty of the crimes. I guess that is just incidental.

[AleG]

As boomerangutang says, swimming at 1am (estimated time ) when it is raining is a very unusual thing for Asian. Then having clothes stolen is also an unusual event. Guitar yes, phones yes, but clothes? ??hmmm.

What is also extremely unusual is Muang Muang getting up at 4.30 in the morning leaving his girlfriend and going to wake up b2 at 5am. He says he left his guitar with his friends, why would he be so worried about it , that would cause him to get out of bed so early. We all know island life. Most people workers and tourist sleep at 2 or 3 am. Especially bar workers get up anywhere from 10 oclock to midday ready to work through the night. I think it is very unusual that Muang Muang was up so early. I'm just not buying the mon theory sorry, there is absolutely nothing on him. He was arrested because of sean, but around about the same time the friend came forward with David's phone. that's why the investigation turned. Before the discovery of the phone, the police were grabbing at straws every where. Altogether there were 5 burmese. Each one of them by their own testimony has some connection to the victims. Nobody else has been shown to have a connection in any way.

So going for a night swim, being the subject of theft, waking up early and worrying about a guitar proves they raped and murdered the victims!! Bit of a stretch of anyones imagination except yours for some reason.

Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated? That in itself is much more suspicious than any of the behaviour you mention above.

"Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated?"

Because that claim has no basis on reality.

Besides, you forgot that they had David Miller's phone, lied about it for no apparent reason other than to hide it's provenance and one was caught hiding in a ferry after police detained his friend, all of which is highly suspicious even without getting into what the police said.

[somo]

As boomerangutang says, swimming at 1am (estimated time ) when it is raining is a very unusual thing for Asian. Then having clothes stolen is also an unusual event. Guitar yes, phones yes, but clothes? ??hmmm.

What is also extremely unusual is Muang Muang getting up at 4.30 in the morning leaving his girlfriend and going to wake up b2 at 5am. He says he left his guitar with his friends, why would he be so worried about it , that would cause him to get out of bed so early. We all know island life. Most people workers and tourist sleep at 2 or 3 am. Especially bar workers get up anywhere from 10 oclock to midday ready to work through the night. I think it is very unusual that Muang Muang was up so early. I'm just not buying the mon theory sorry, there is absolutely nothing on him. He was arrested because of sean, but around about the same time the friend came forward with David's phone. that's why the investigation turned. Before the discovery of the phone, the police were grabbing at straws every where. Altogether there were 5 burmese. Each one of them by their own testimony has some connection to the victims. Nobody else has been shown to have a connection in any way.

So going for a night swim, being the subject of theft, waking up early and worrying about a guitar proves they raped and murdered the victims!! Bit of a stretch of anyones imagination except yours for some reason.

Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated? That in itself is much more suspicious than any of the behaviour you mention above.

"Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated?"

Because that claim has no basis on reality.

Besides, you forgot that they had David Miller's phone, lied about it for no apparent reason other than to hide it's provenance and one was caught hiding in a ferry after police detained his friend, all of which is highly suspicious even without getting into what the police said.

So where has it gone? The police say it existed but that all the evidence has gone. They have no DNA on the murder weapon (except for someone elses not the B2 or on the victims and even the rape seems not to have happened.

It is a Cluedo farce with no real evidence.

The police were holding all the hard evidence ( the rest is just suspicion and finger pointing) then it went away. They were responsible for it so should be held accountable.

[somo]

As boomerangutang says, swimming at 1am (estimated time ) when it is raining is a very unusual thing for Asian. Then having clothes stolen is also an unusual event. Guitar yes, phones yes, but clothes? ??hmmm.

What is also extremely unusual is Muang Muang getting up at 4.30 in the morning leaving his girlfriend and going to wake up b2 at 5am. He says he left his guitar with his friends, why would he be so worried about it , that would cause him to get out of bed so early. We all know island life. Most people workers and tourist sleep at 2 or 3 am. Especially bar workers get up anywhere from 10 oclock to midday ready to work through the night. I think it is very unusual that Muang Muang was up so early. I'm just not buying the mon theory sorry, there is absolutely nothing on him. He was arrested because of sean, but around about the same time the friend came forward with David's phone. that's why the investigation turned. Before the discovery of the phone, the police were grabbing at straws every where. Altogether there were 5 burmese. Each one of them by their own testimony has some connection to the victims. Nobody else has been shown to have a connection in any way.

So going for a night swim, being the subject of theft, waking up early and worrying about a guitar proves they raped and murdered the victims!! Bit of a stretch of anyones imagination except yours for some reason.

Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated? That in itself is much more suspicious than any of the behaviour you mention above.

The Judge panel found the 2 Burmese guilty of the crimes. I guess that is just incidental.

So what? It is their decision that is being questioned not blindly accepted. In itself such a decision is not evidence of wrongdoing. For you it may be good enough but not for the vast majority of observers which is why there has been such a public outcry against it.

[JLCrab]

As boomerangutang says, swimming at 1am (estimated time ) when it is raining is a very unusual thing for Asian. Then having clothes stolen is also an unusual event. Guitar yes, phones yes, but clothes? ??hmmm.

What is also extremely unusual is Muang Muang getting up at 4.30 in the morning leaving his girlfriend and going to wake up b2 at 5am. He says he left his guitar with his friends, why would he be so worried about it , that would cause him to get out of bed so early. We all know island life. Most people workers and tourist sleep at 2 or 3 am. Especially bar workers get up anywhere from 10 oclock to midday ready to work through the night. I think it is very unusual that Muang Muang was up so early. I'm just not buying the mon theory sorry, there is absolutely nothing on him. He was arrested because of sean, but around about the same time the friend came forward with David's phone. that's why the investigation turned. Before the discovery of the phone, the police were grabbing at straws every where. Altogether there were 5 burmese. Each one of them by their own testimony has some connection to the victims. Nobody else has been shown to have a connection in any way.

So going for a night swim, being the subject of theft, waking up early and worrying about a guitar proves they raped and murdered the victims!! Bit of a stretch of anyones imagination except yours for some reason.

Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated? That in itself is much more suspicious than any of the behaviour you mention above.

The Judge panel found the 2 Burmese guilty of the crimes. I guess that is just incidental.

So what? It is their decision that is being questioned not blindly accepted. In itself such a decision is not evidence of wrongdoing. For you it may be good enough but not for the vast majority of observers which is why there has been such a public outcry against it.

The decision of the Judges is subject to appeal. That is how the Thai Rules of Criminal Procedure are structured. There is no provision that things should be done differently because the vox populi has expressed its indignation and does not agree with the Samui Court's decision.

[boomerangutang]

The Judge panel found the 2 Burmese guilty of the crimes. I guess that is just incidental.

You can call it incidental if you want. I'd call it pre-ordained.

"Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated?"

Because that claim has no basis on reality.

Besides, you forgot that they had David Miller's phone, lied about it for no apparent reason other than to hide it's provenance and one was caught hiding in a ferry after police detained his friend, all of which is highly suspicious even without getting into what the police said.

The assertion that essentially all DNA evidence was missing and/or not introduced to the judicial process is true. It was at that point that it would have been declared a mistrial in any farang judicial venue. Everyone agrees the DNA evidence is key. When it's plain the DNA trail is gonzoed and no DNA from Hanna is available to re-test, then that alone should have been game-over for the trial. Unless, perhaps, Thai authorities just want to execute two young men because one of them may or may not have found a phone at a beach in the wee hours.

Meanwhile, reams of evidence was not mentioned at trial. I'm referring, of course, to evidence which could implicate others who certain important rich & socially powerful people don't want mentioned.

[JLCrab]

Anyone can blow smoke as to what wasn't done and what should've been done but what was done is that the Judges issued their ruling and the Judges have the authority and jurisdiction to do so. They could be dead wrong -- I don't care. Their ruling is not going to be vacated. It is subject to appeal under the Thai Rules of Criminal Procedure. Hopefully now the Defense team is finalizing an appeal request that will cause a reasonable appeal panel to review the Samui Court's decision and rule in favor of the 2 convicted if that is so warranted.

... and if the 2 convicted know more about what actually happened than they have revealed to date, then I think they are getting some poor legal advice.

Edited January 17, 2016 by JLCrab

[les34005]

I agree wholeheartedly, that the B2 are getting poor LEGAL advice if they do not at some

point in time (with their safety in mind) reveal what they know in their defense!

[AleG]

The decision of the Judges is subject to appeal. That is how the Thai Rules of Criminal Procedure are structured. There is no provision that things should be done differently because the vox populi has expressed its indignation and does not agree with the Samui Court's decision.

If rousing people up doesn't work then surely hacking into the court network and stealing data from criminal cases will make them change their mind...

[greenchair]

I agree wholeheartedly, that the B2 are getting poor LEGAL advice if they do not at some

point in time (with their safety in mind) reveal what they know in their defense!

If they did this, and pled guilty they would have received half sentences and been out in 20 years or less.

If they only raped or assisted, they would be out in 5 years.

We all know they were there.

We all know they were involved.

I also think they are being very poorly advised. Especially the 2nd defendant.

The lawyers should stop filling their heads with mumbo jumbo.

They are not going to get a free ticket as this stands.

Edited January 17, 2016 by greenchair

[KunMatt]

I agree wholeheartedly, that the B2 are getting poor LEGAL advice if they do not at some

point in time (with their safety in mind) reveal what they know in their defense!

If they did this, and pled guilty they would have received half sentences and been out in 20 years or less.

If they only raped or assisted, they would be out in 5 years.

We all know they were there.

We all know they were involved.

I also think they are being very poorly advised. Especially the 2nd defendant.

The lawyers should stop filling their heads with mumbo jumbo.

They are not going to get a free ticket as this stands.

If they plead guilty to 2 murders, 1 rape, 1 theft and multiple immigration offenses please explain how you get to that 20 year figure? The rape alone would have got them 10 years with a guilty plea.

And please explain what you would do in their shoes if you were a witness/thief to the murders in a foreign country which has just beaten a confession out of you and the whole country, including the prime minister, is set on taking you down no matter what evidence they are missing. Do you really think that you would be in a situation where you could say in court "yes, I saw what happened and I stole items I found at the crime scene, but really that is as much as I was involved, it was actually some extremely wealthy, powerful and well connected people that did it". Do you honestly believe they would receive a fair trial after that considering that the RTP were intent on finding and protecting any other suspects?

Their only chance was hoping that justice would prevail and honestly pleading not guilty to the murders and false rape. Unfortunately they chose the wrong country for that. If I was them at this point I would give up on my life and tell the world everything I knew. Their lives are over already, might as well finger the real culprits now and hope that the minuscule chance of something happening in their favour might come off.

[007cableguy]

Does Koh Tao have any farang tourist police which would help smooth things over for the RTP?.

If not their are a couple shills sorry posters here that would be ideal candidates for the job that would hang of every word the great RTP say!!

[Linky]

I agree wholeheartedly, that the B2 are getting poor LEGAL advice if they do not at some

point in time (with their safety in mind) reveal what they know in their defense!

If they did this, and pled guilty they would have received half sentences and been out in 20 years or less.

If they only raped or assisted, they would be out in 5 years.

We all know they were there.

We all know they were involved.

I also think they are being very poorly advised. Especially the 2nd defendant.

The lawyers should stop filling their heads with mumbo jumbo.

They are not going to get a free ticket as this stands.

You know they were there?

Please provide any evidence to prove they were at the crime scene.

[sickwaterbuffalo2]

Does Koh Tao have any farang tourist police which would help smooth things over for the RTP?.

If not their are a couple shills sorry posters here that would be ideal candidates for the job that would hang of every word the great RTP say!!

Most foreign police volunteers in Thailand are proven career criminals or shyster walter mitty guys.

[somo]

So going for a night swim, being the subject of theft, waking up early and worrying about a guitar proves they raped and murdered the victims!! Bit of a stretch of anyones imagination except yours for some reason.

Why isn't the disappearance of all the DNA evidence being investigated? That in itself is much more suspicious than any of the behaviour you mention above.

The Judge panel found the 2 Burmese guilty of the crimes. I guess that is just incidental.

So what? It is their decision that is being questioned not blindly accepted. In itself such a decision is not evidence of wrongdoing. For you it may be good enough but not for the vast majority of observers which is why there has been such a public outcry against it.

The decision of the Judges is subject to appeal. That is how the Thai Rules of Criminal Procedure are structured. There is no provision that things should be done differently because the vox populi has expressed its indignation and does not agree with the Samui Court's decision.

Amnesty International recently revealed that Burmese workers are often tortured and convicted of crimes as scapegoats. This case looks to be a classic example so I don't hold out much hope for the B2. However you may be wrong that public indignation will not influence things and that is their only hope. Thai justice has come under scrutiny and it may be in all parties interests to make that go away.

[JLCrab]

<snip>

The decision of the Judges is subject to appeal. That is how the Thai Rules of Criminal Procedure are structured. There is no provision that things should be done differently because the vox populi has expressed its indignation and does not agree with the Samui Court's decision.

Amnesty International recently revealed that Burmese workers are often tortured and convicted of crimes as scapegoats. This case looks to be a classic example so I don't hold out much hope for the B2. However you may be wrong that public indignation will not influence things and that is their only hope. Thai justice has come under scrutiny and it may be in all parties interests to make that go away.

I only said that there is no provision in the Thai Rules of Criminal Procedure that the local Court or the Court of Appeals has to take into consideration the Vox Populi in reaching their decisions.

Edited January 17, 2016 by JLCrab

[iReason]

DNA evidence in the Kho Tao Verdict is being openly challenged.

The author is an internationally recognized, well-known, well respected senior barrister (trial lawyer) from Perth.

Open letters to:

(1) the Public Prosecutor of Koh Samui Province

(2) the Thailand Bureau of Laboratory Quality Standards

(3) the Thailand Bureau of Laboratory Accreditation, both part of the Department of Medical Sciences, Ministry of Public Health

“This finding was made in spite of the following facts [each of which violates the standards of ISO 17025]: the police claimed they had ‘used up’ all the original mixed semen samples; there were no chain of custody documents in evidence; there were inadequate case notes; no statistical analysis was performed; hand-written changes were made to documents without explanation; a used condom was not made available to the defense, and stamps were not present on documents."

“There was no reference in the judgement as to when the laboratory obtained the accreditation, the extent of the accreditation or which body gave the accreditation.”

The three recipients are asked who accredited the laboratories for ISO 17025 in relation to human DNA testing and matching, and the scope of the accreditation.

The author sets forth the time honored principal that it must be “shown that the DNA testing was carried out in accordance with standards that allow the defense team to verify the test results and conclusions.” AND that the Courts of Justice be made fully aware of the extent of accreditation (or non-accreditation) of the laboratories.”

[somo]

I agree wholeheartedly, that the B2 are getting poor LEGAL advice if they do not at some

point in time (with their safety in mind) reveal what they know in their defense!

If they did this, and pled guilty they would have received half sentences and been out in 20 years or less.

If they only raped or assisted, they would be out in 5 years.

We all know they were there.

We all know they were involved.

I also think they are being very poorly advised. Especially the 2nd defendant.

The lawyers should stop filling their heads with mumbo jumbo.

They are not going to get a free ticket as this stands.

There you go again with misleading insinuation and assumptions.

Why?

f they only raped or assisted, they would be out in 5 years.There is no evidence of rape in fact it was denied by the english examination.

We all know they were there. No we do not

We all know they were involved. no we do not

Only you know these things. How is that?

The rest of us would like to see real hard evidence before assuming their guilt but neither you or anyone else can point to it.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts have disappeared.

[mark131v]

DNA evidence in the Kho Tao Verdict is being openly challenged.

The author is an internationally recognized, well-known, well respected senior barrister (trial lawyer) from Perth.

Open letters to:

(1) the Public Prosecutor of Koh Samui Province

(2) the Thailand Bureau of Laboratory Quality Standards

(3) the Thailand Bureau of Laboratory Accreditation, both part of the Department of Medical Sciences, Ministry of Public Health

“This finding was made in spite of the following facts [each of which violates the standards of ISO 17025]: the police claimed they had ‘used up’ all the original mixed semen samples; there were no chain of custody documents in evidence; there were inadequate case notes; no statistical analysis was performed; hand-written changes were made to documents without explanation; a used condom was not made available to the defense, and stamps were not present on documents."

“There was no reference in the judgement as to when the laboratory obtained the accreditation, the extent of the accreditation or which body gave the accreditation.”

The three recipients are asked who accredited the laboratories for ISO 17025 in relation to human DNA testing and matching, and the scope of the accreditation.

The author sets forth the time honored principal that it must be “shown that the DNA testing was carried out in accordance with standards that allow the defense team to verify the test results and conclusions.” AND that the Courts of Justice be made fully aware of the extent of accreditation (or non-accreditation) of the laboratories.”

I wonder if they will even attempt to answer these very clear questions or just ignore it and hope it goes away, unfortunately my money is on the later...

Must be disconcerting for these plastic professionals when a real professional who did not buy or inherit his position but actually had to earn it openly questions them, must be doubly bad when it is a foreigner who could not give a monkeys about the loss of face but instead actually cares about justice!!!

The fact that this also shows what incompetent numpties many in this case really are is just the icing on the cake but unfortunately I still think it wont change a think, the rot in this society is just too deep...

[iReason]

Yes, agreed Mark131v.

All you say is completely alien to them.

Ignoring it, hopefully, will just snowball.

These locals have not the depth of intelligence or will, to see that.

Perhaps it will blow the whole thing further out on to the world stage like their ludicrous notion to consider prosecuting the sister of a brutally murdered woman.

Crudely put, It's a festering pimple that needs to be popped.

Edited January 17, 2016 by iReason