Visa Crackdown Brings Expulsion Threat To Expats

[george]

Thai visa crackdown brings expulsion threat to expats

BANGKOK: Many British residents of Thailand with Thai spouses face repatriation and broken marriages because of new visa regulations due to be introduced on July 10.

From that date, foreign partners of Thai spouses must deposit 400,000 Baht (£5,700) permanently in a Thai bank or show assured monthly income of at least 40,000 Baht (£570) in order to obtain a renewable one-year visa based on marriage.

Until now, married foreigners have had to place 200,000 Baht (£2,850) in a Thai bank account at the time of the application only.

This has led to short-term, co-operative loans between friends, a practice of which the Thai authorities now disapprove.

Hundreds of longtime British residents, particularly pensioners, say they can't raise the amount of cash and tie it up permanently, as required by the new regulations, and many fear they may have to return to Britain, leaving Thai spouses behind.

Jim Francis, a 62-year-old British citizen living with his Thai wife in a remote northern Thai village on a small Royal Navy disability pension, is one of them. He has written about his plight to the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.

"There's no way I can meet the new requirements", says Mr Francis, whose pension is 9,500 Baht (£136) a month.

Until now, Mr Francis and many British men married to Thai women have been able to maintain their residence in Thailand on so-called "multiple-entry non-immigrant visas", documents which are officially intended for business people. The visas require holders to leave Thailand every three months.

Mr Francis and many others existing like him on limited funds maintain a permanent residence in Thailand by making what are called "visa runs", crossing the nearest border points into Myanmar, Malaysia, Laos or Cambodia every three months and returning the same day with their passports and visas correctly stamped. Francis spends 24,000 Baht (£340) annually on his visa runs.

Thai embassies and consulates abroad have been quite liberal in issuing multiple-entry, non-immigrant visas. But there are signs the procedure is being tightened up to exclude all but genuine business people - with real funds in the bank.

A Thai Immigration Department spokesman commented: "We regret any cases of hardship caused by the new regulations. But it must be understood that we have to ensure that any foreigners wishing to live in Thailand must be able to maintain themselves and their dependants and present no risk of becoming a burden to the State".

In his letter to Mr Blair, Mr Francis complains that when he last applied at the Thai Embassy in Vientiane, Laos, for re-entry to Thailand he was told he didn't have enough income to continue to live in Thailand, and that he would never be given another multiple-entry visa.

Mr Francis points out that the average family income in Thailand is 3,340 Baht (£49) a month.

"What right has anyone to say I can't support my wife on 9,500 Baht a month? I've been living happily with her for the past seven years, have never got into debt and we've never gone without."

--The Telegraph, UK 2004-04-12

[Nam Kao]

Wont this guy fall into the Grandfather clause

[Phil Conners]

There is no grandfather clause it seems.

... it must be understood that we have to ensure that any foreigners wishing to live in Thailand must be able to maintain themselves and their dependants and present no risk of becoming a burden to the State".

What a load of bull. How is freezing 400,000 bath going to help anyone maintain themselves. If anything it's exactly the opposite effect. I have the money, but I'd rather have it invested and earning me 40k per year than having it frozen in a no-interest bearing Thai bank account.

Since when has poor people been a burden to the state in Thailand anyway? Doesn't seem like the dirty little kids selling chewing gum in the bars at night were a burden to the state, nor the people living in the bushes of the "big Budda hill" (those familiar with Pattaya will know what I'm talking about). Why not just be honest and say "Hey farang, if you're not a millionaire, get outta here".

I'm glad I still have my roots in order in Europe and that my Thai wife still have a valid residence permit. Man, I'm beginning to understand how people felt in Hong Kong in 1997. Sheesh!

Anyway, personally I don't mind so much, my home is where I hang my hat as the old saying goes, but my wife was very happy to finally be "back home" after having enjoyed the hospitality of my country for the last ten years (without having to visit any immigration office ever - just one visit to the city hall and a 10 year residence permit was issued - for free). Our daughter, seven years of age, had the first chance in her life of learning her mother tongue and culture. All this will be history if things continue to go this way.

[Opl]

Next step forward could be introducing dual exchange rate, something like the FEC system in Myanmar ...

[Dah fahrang]

Beware of journalistic hype. It's their job to scaremonger, and to whip up a storyIt sells papers. The Daily Bellylaugh is no exception.

Posted permanently above, the rules as described by Vice Commander, Immigration! Note the 'or' when refgerring to deposit or income.

The post goes on to mention the 'grandfather' clause.

The requirements for new NON-O extensions based on marriage to Thai citizen are:

- Having a saving account showing not less than 400.000 baht for annual use

or

- Having an income of not less than 40.000 baht a month

or

- Having a savings account and income together of not less than 40.000 baht a month.

(Example: Saving account with 200.000 bath + income 20.000 baht a month will be accepted).

This new new rules/figures, is now confirmed by Vice Commander of Immigration Division 1, Montrie Gosiyasathit, only apply to people applying for extension first time after July 9. 2004.

[Basher]

Simple

If you really want to stay and you have a limited income, borrow the money from the bank each year and pay it off with your income.

400k from the bank, 10k coming in.... no brainer

Bash

[Thaiquila]

I am confused about the bank requirements.

So the OFFICIAL rule (if qualifying only on bank account) is to leave the 400K in Thai bank PERMANENTLY, or is it still OK to draw out, and replenish at application time?

Same question for retirement visa, if qualifying on bank account of 800K.

[teelac888]

to answer the man's question:

any Thai official that feels like it can tell him he can't support his wife on B 9,500 per month.

he has zero rights here, only privileges.

he should have thought of that when he settled down in the first place.

they will keep tightening the noose whenever they feel like it and there is nothing that can be done about it unfortunately.

[mbkudu]

I wonder if the government realizes that most of the expats that fall into the

"not enough money" category are English teachers. English teachers help Thai people learn English at a reasonable price. At the moment most teachers don't have work permits because most Schools or language centers can't/won't spend

the necessary time and money to get their teachers legitimately set up. A lot of teachers work several part time jobs at the same time, so often times schools would have a hard time giving a work permit to a teacher that only works 6 hours a week for them, but in fact the teacher is working another 34 hours a week at other places to make ends meet.

The bottom line is that the Thai who wants to learn English to get ahead is the one who will suffer. If schools are forced to give work permits to every teacher they employ, then they will pass the extra cost on to the customer, the Thais.

[Rinrada]

Assuming that the average Thai family monthly income is 'Bt 4000 and the expected Non T (UK or head of family-from wherever) needs Bt 40K a month (retirement income) to live on..not work of course..not allowed the reverse suggests(under this legit) that to survive in the Smoke the everyday Thai cant "exist" on anything less than £20,000 a month.(about $34,500)

Maybe the wife and all her mates know sum-fink I dont??

[Richard W]

any Thai official that feels like it can tell him he can't support his wife on B 9,500 per month.

he has zero rights here, only privileges.

he should have thought of that when he settled down in the first place.

Thailand may have been the only place he and his wife could live together. What potential income does the UK consulate require for a couple without capital and currently without a home in the UK?

[rleaton]

I would like to know exactly how many foreigners have become "a financial burden to the state" as a reason given by Thai immigration officials for the increased requirement. They are so phoney it is pitiful !!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Assuming that the average Thai family monthly income is 'Bt 4000 and the expected Non T (UK or head of family-from wherever) needs Bt 40K a month (retirement income) to live on..not work of course..not allowed the reverse suggests(under this legit) that to survive in the Smoke the everyday Thai cant "exist" on anything less than £20,000 a month.(about $34,500)

Maybe the wife and all her mates know sum-fink I dont??

As my old teacher of sums might say Rinrada, can you show me how you worked that out. 40,000 baht is less than $US 1000. And that married guy can work on an O visa with a work permit.

[Nareena]

man... keeping a healthy marriage is hard already, now we're talking intercultural marriage...and THIS too?!?! No wonder Nana is such a hot spot.

anyway, british accent is sexy, give them a little break. ;-)

[dr_Pat_Pong]

man... keeping a healthy marriage is hard already, now we're talking intercultural marriage...and THIS too?!?! No wonder Nana is such a hot spot.

anyway, british accent is sexy, give them a little break. ;-)

Don't tell us ... tell Dr Thaksin or the Immigration heavies in Soi Suan Phlu. They make the rules.

[taxexile]

Thailand may have been the only place he and his wife could live together. What potential income does the UK consulate require for a couple without capital and currently without a home in the UK?

they should return to the uk, where they should claim political asylum on the grounds that their human rights to live together as husband and wife have been breached by new policies implemented by the thai government.

they will then be given more than enough money by the uk authorities to be able to come back here and fulfil the visa requirements.

[Quidnovi]

What they vont the Farangs money and the blood, now no interets in accout bank, visa 2600 B, if all farangs go out particularie in Pattaya, big collapse in construction village, because 95 % buyer his farangs, this gouvernement vont kille the hen gold eggs, since two or three years us lose tout much and no favord..

[mrmnp]

Dr Pat: Please answer Thaiquilla and my query? Is there anything in the new regulations that require PERMANENT deposit of funds or is the old repelenishment approach still OK?

I do read most posts regarding fund deposit regulations and your pinned post on this issue doesn't mention anything about permanent deposit of funds.

It may well be a technique to get more people to read thaivisa.com, but for us regulars, it would help when publishing articles from outside sources, that you point out inaccuracies for your devoted followers. Thank you

[Axel]

they should return to the uk, where they should claim political asylum on the grounds that their human rights to live together as husband and wife have been breached by new policies implemented by the thai government.

.

Now this is a good idea. It might work, not only in the U.K., also across the E.U.

I believe.

[astral]

Total journalistic BULLSHIT.

How can any of us possibly become a burden on the State?

There are no state benefits for the elderly in Thailand!!

Only a journalist from a western country could write such clap trap.

[astral]

Beware of journalistic hype. It's their job to scaremonger, and to whip up a storyIt sells papers.

- Having a savings account and income together of not less than 40.000 baht a month.

This new new rules/figures, is now confirmed by Vice Commander of Immigration Division 1, Montrie Gosiyasathit, only apply to people applying for extension first time after July 9. 2004.

All the other regulations say Savings or Income or Savings and Income

It is illogical to change the format so suddenly, but then "This is Thailand"

The old bank deposit against tax, to get a Tax Clearance to leave the country, could not be touched, but that went out about 15 years ago.

However it could be a dangerous precendent.

PS the gentleman refered to in the article has a benefit over most of us.

His Royal Navy Pension will be index linked, which is not true of the ordinary Old Age Pension, if you live in Thailand!!

[Bangkok Barry]

This is serious stuff. I am about to buy a house for my THAI wife, thereby giving a large sum of money to the present THAI owner, and that is now in jeopardy. Although I currently 'import' 40,000 baht a month to my Thai bank account from the UK (and of course that only depends on the exchange rate), I intend to reduce that by 25 percent and use that amount to repay a UK loan needed to complete the purchase of the house.

Normally, I get my multiple O visa on an annual trip to Melbourne, which it appears under the new rules will be refused next January as I'm dropping my monthy income here to 30,000 baht.

My question is this: will I be able instead to make trips out of the country every three months and then re-enter. Not using the now-endangered day trip across the border, but staying away for a few days, or will I be banned from the country for six months.

Also, is there truly a case for taking the government to an international court for discriminating against non-Thais by insisting they have an income many times that of the average Thai? If so, I feel there are people involved with this forum who might be qualified to mount a challenge. The regime here is getting closer and closer to what happened in Zimbabwe.

[astral]

As long as you have the visa you can come and go.

The problem will be if you can still get the multi-entry visa.

BangkokBarry raises a good point. Many of us have "invested in Thailand" much more than the magical 200K or 400K, but the Thai government does not want to recognise that.

Very sad really

Remember the Golden rule:

Do not invest more cash in Thailand, than you are prepared to walk away from.

[mrmnp]

BangkokBarry: As a guest of the Thai government, I do not believe you have any justiciable issue regarding discriminaton. Most countries discriminate against aliens, especially in immigration. It is the nation-state's right to treat aliens in anyway they want, and the aliens, like T.V. watcher's remedy is to walk or click to another channel.

Dr. Pat: Waiting for your answer regarding PERMANENT deposits?

[george]

Waiting for your answer regarding PERMANENT deposits?

Please note that it's Songkran holidays now, and we can't get a clear answer from Immigration until after the water war. I will check it up as soon the heavies at the Immigration Bureau is at the office again.

Until then this is a press clipping only, and should be regarded as such.

[mrmnp]

Thank you George: I would have been happy with your opinion, as you are usually way ahead on anything like this, but checking with immigration before answering is more than one could ask. Gratefully.

[KevinN]

It does seem that they are straying from the norm.

But it is their country and they can make any rules they want or how they enforce said rules. When I got my first and subsequent visa extensions I was getting more than enough monthly pension and a letter verifying this from my embassy,but still the gal interviewing me said that I needed a bank acct. of XXX baht,I said that the rules say XXX baht in the bank or a pension of XXX baht,,She says " I know what it says, But here is what I say"

It seems like the guy will be able to support his wife,as he has been doing it for a number of years, But could he get a visa for her to go to his country based on the amount of income he has?

I know for sure that he couldn't get an American visa with that amount,The Americans say how much you must have in order to get your wife a visa,and it doesn't matter how long you have been married,,Most people think that all that is needed is to get married and then your wife is a resident legally of the USA and nothing is farther from the truth.

You ask for a visa for your wife and they jack you around for at least 2 years before they issue a temp.perm. resident visa,,if they issue one at all.

And how could this guy claim grandfather if they will no longer issue him a multi-entry "O" because that visa is for a business man ,which he isn't, and he will not qualify for a married or retired visa because of income? And how can he sue them for human rights because he can't meet requirements to stay in THEIR country.?

[sweetest_mango]

hi all-

your favorite stir pot...

i find it laughable everyone arguing and parsing the words of the writer. the bottom line is - unless you have the money, you cant stay. period. slice it and dice it anyway you want.

what is seriously f-ed up about this is that no one i can remember even said...gee, poor guy. hes right you know, what a shxt and thanksless thing to do (to us all). i mean the guy is supporting someone here and that is the thanks. the entire policy is wholly daft and im not going to indirectly support it with my money.

the govt is playing each and every one of you for succkers. your life savings will be robbed when the current construction/land bubble comes due. the economist this months states that 15-25% of banks have unservicable loans on books that could crash each institution.

the govt is major, big time ######. foreigners come to thailand and clean up the garbage and chaos the thai men leave behind. they marry women who are unamrryable, take care of lazy, drunken thai mens children. and this is the thanks.

no where has anyone posted. yeah! that sucks. im boycotting thailand....im very curious what would make you boycott? answer =nothing. youll go when the pussy is taken away. until that, youll endure financial rubbish requirements an dendles sinsults.

th etruth gentlemen....it is easier for us/european/aus/nz to come and go and live in each others countries without this bogus requirements than to come and live in a third world country.

i think at a minimum - all foreign asst (ngo, community based orgs...) should be talied and a letter of boycott be presented to govt AND stop funding all programs as a general boycott measure. further, cut off all monies to thai 'wives'. no illusion you all would actually stand up for one another -so maybe it can be done as a anon group.

its is really an outrage the way foreigners are treated. 12 million persons pass thru the country each year acc to tat. and the thanks.....F-you falang! its not just the govt, you see it every day in the attitude in the street these years.

every country has a right to set its own rules however xenophobic and jingoistic. you have a right to visit or not. excercise your right gentlemen. stand for something for once in your life besides in a line for a pint of ale.

ps: the idea that you cant get a 'clear answer' because its songkran, do you ever get a clear answer? i think the fact this board exists says NO. they are playng you all for suckers.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

hi all-

your favorite stir pot...

i find it laughable everyone arguing and parsing the words of the writer. the bottom line is - unless you have the money, you cant stay. period. slice it and dice it anyway you want.

what is seriously f-ed up about this is that no one i can remember even said...gee, poor guy. hes right you know, what a shxt and thanksless thing to do (to us all). i mean the guy is supporting someone here and that is the thanks. the entire policy is wholly daft and im not going to indirectly support it with my money.

the govt is playing each and every one of you for succkers. your life savings will be robbed when the current construction/land bubble comes due. the economist this months states that 15-25% of banks have unservicable loans on books that could crash each institution.

the govt is major, big time ######. foreigners come to thailand and clean up the garbage and chaos the thai men leave behind. they marry women who are unamrryable, take care of lazy, drunken thai mens children. and this is the thanks.

no where has anyone posted. yeah! that sucks. im boycotting thailand....im very curious what would make you boycott? answer =nothing. youll go when the pussy is taken away. until that, youll endure financial rubbish requirements an dendles sinsults.

th etruth gentlemen....it is easier for us/european/aus/nz to come and go and live in each others countries without this bogus requirements than to come and live in a third world country.

i think at a minimum - all foreign asst (ngo, community based orgs...) should be talied and a letter of boycott be presented to govt AND stop funding all programs as a general boycott measure. further, cut off all monies to thai 'wives'. no illusion you all would actually stand up for one another -so maybe it can be done as a anon group.

its is really an outrage the way foreigners are treated. 12 million persons pass thru the country each year acc to tat. and the thanks.....F-you falang! its not just the govt, you see it every day in the attitude in the street these years.

every country has a right to set its own rules however xenophobic and jingoistic. you have a right to visit or not. excercise your right gentlemen. stand for something for once in your life besides in a line for a pint of ale.

ps: the idea that you cant get a 'clear answer' because its songkran, do you ever get a clear answer? i think the fact this board exists says NO. they are playng you all for suckers.

Can't you get to India yet ?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Dr Pat: Please answer Thaiquilla and my query? Is there anything in the new regulations that require PERMANENT deposit of funds or is the old repelenishment approach still OK?

I do read most posts regarding fund deposit regulations and your pinned post on this issue doesn't mention anything about permanent deposit of funds.

It may well be a technique to get more people to read thaivisa.com, but for us regulars, it would help when publishing articles from outside sources, that you point out inaccuracies for your devoted followers. Thank you

I still believe that you will only need to top up at each renewal time, but I also believe those that empty the account straight away after each renewal will be in trouble. The water is still murky to be totally certain.