65K Income for Americans- Gross or Net income

[Jingthing]

Anyway, I'm sorry, maybe I'm wrong this time.

I don't use the income method yet.

For those Americans who are stating social security income for the income method, are you putting down the official FULL benefit amount (gross) or something else?

I had assumed most are putting the FULL amount without any problems.

But I'm curious to know the real life true stories.

[mgjackson69]

What is net income? Exactly what is deducted from gross income to get it?

Take the simple case of someone working for a salary.

Gross pay is what your employer pays you each period.

Deduct taxes (federal, state, local whichever are applicable)

Deduct for medical insurance if that is part of your deal.

Deduct for 401k or other self-funded retirement plan.

What is deposited to your bank or given to you in cash or a check is net.

[MaeJoMTB]

Not meaningless at all. When you see job adverts noting salary, it is ALWAYS the gross figure presented.

Not if you're an off shore worker.

My mining pals job adverts are in $$$$$$s, net (after deductions).

Usually $150k+ in their bank/year, + free food, + free accom, + free business class return flights every month.

[Jingthing]

After tax doesn't even seem realistic.

Americans won't know for sure about their exact tax liability until they actually file their tax forms in the YEAR AFTER the current year.

[TheAppletons]

Gross income is meaningless because it does not tell how much money you have to live on.

If somebody asks me my salary, with very good reason I tell them to fcck off.

So if you had to pay child support or spousal support would you subtract that out? A mortgage payment in your home country? A judgement against you in a lawsuit? A student loan payment for your child? All of those would reduce how much you had to "live on".

The requirement isn't to state "how much money you have to live on". The requirement is to state your income. For that purpose, gross income meets the requirement.

[mgjackson69]

After tax doesn't even seem realistic.

Americans won't know for sure about their exact tax liability until they actually file their tax forms in the YEAR AFTER the current year.

I am not sure why you are making this complicated.

Most people could produce paperwork to support using either gross or net. My (electronic) pay stubs could easily be used to support either figure.

If the net is sufficient to meet the income requirement, then why specify a larger number?

I am not interested in calling attention to myself by having a larger number on that Income Statement than is needed.

I have used both figures in the past; using the gross figure caused a lot more discussion and tapping on the calculator than the net.

Argue it how you want....I will continue to use my net amount.

[Jingthing]

I'm really talking about American social security checks here. They send a check. It has a number. That seems the correct number to state even if you need to pay tax on it later to state and/or federal. There is also the question of Medicare Part withholding. It's as simple or complicated as it actually is. Just looking for correct answers.

I'm not on S.S. yet. Do they withhold state and federal tax as an employer would, or not? I assume if you've opted for a Medicare Part payment option, you never see that money.

The OP states American and saying 65K we know he's talking about RETIREMENT extensions. So it's a reasonable assumption to think he's talking about U.S. SOCIAL SECURITY. But, maybe not.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Jingthing

[mgjackson69]

I'm really talking about American social security checks here. They send a check. It has a number. That seems the correct number to state even if you need to pay tax on it later to state and/or federal. There is also the question of Medicare Part withholding. It's as simple or complicated as it actually is. Just looking for correct answers.

And there is the rub...I am not sure there is a correct answer and regards "gross" or "net".

For a US Social Security check, if you are paying tax on that it is due to other income pushing you over a certain threshold. So the monthly Social Security check would not be an accurate statement of income also.

Here is my rationale for using net, for what it is worth: Using the net amount of my salary, as long as I am being truthful about that amount (in actuality, I am even understating that number a little bit by rounding down), I will never be guilty of overstating my income.

Now then, when I get to the point of collecting Social Security checks, I will likely change up and start using gross. Why? Because that is the amount that will be going into my bank account each month.

For the armchair lawyers, do you truly think that Thai Immigration is interested in gross amounts that someone is earning in another country? They have no way of knowing what that translates to as far as "money in my pocket". Given that the income requirement exists to ensure that a person here on an extension of stay has the means to support themselves (and perhaps a wife depending on the extension type), "money in my pocket" seems to be the figure of interest.

[Dante99]

After tax doesn't even seem realistic.

Americans won't know for sure about their exact tax liability until they actually file their tax forms in the YEAR AFTER the current year.

I am not sure why you are making this complicated.

Most people could produce paperwork to support using either gross or net. My (electronic) pay stubs could easily be used to support either figure.

If the net is sufficient to meet the income requirement, then why specify a larger number?

I am not interested in calling attention to myself by having a larger number on that Income Statement than is needed.

I have used both figures in the past; using the gross figure caused a lot more discussion and tapping on the calculator than the net.

Argue it how you want....I will continue to use my net amount.

Income Statement referring to the US Consul or similar?

The US Consul letter states that you have an income of $ XXXXX. Now if you have less than that it is a lie but if you have more than that it is not a lie. The statement is not that your total income is $XXXX, only that you have that much income, and you can have that much and more without stating the total and without being dishonest.

[Jingthing]

Now you're making it more complicated. Look at the OP. It's an American. It's about retirement. I wish he stated SOCIAL SECURITY because then we'd know what he's really talking about. I'd like to know how Americans are handling SOCIAL SECURITY benefits in this regard. Specifically, American Social Security benefit amounts.

[Dante99]

Not meaningless at all. When you see job adverts noting salary, it is ALWAYS the gross figure presented.

What the hell does this thread have to do with job adverts? Time for your return trip to outer space?

[mgjackson69]

After tax doesn't even seem realistic.

Americans won't know for sure about their exact tax liability until they actually file their tax forms in the YEAR AFTER the current year.

I am not sure why you are making this complicated.

Most people could produce paperwork to support using either gross or net. My (electronic) pay stubs could easily be used to support either figure.

If the net is sufficient to meet the income requirement, then why specify a larger number?

I am not interested in calling attention to myself by having a larger number on that Income Statement than is needed.

I have used both figures in the past; using the gross figure caused a lot more discussion and tapping on the calculator than the net.

Argue it how you want....I will continue to use my net amount.

Income Statement referring to the US Consul or similar?

The US Consul letter states that you have an income of $ XXXXX. Now if you have less than that it is a lie but if you have more than that it is not a lie. The statement is not that your total income is $XXXX, only that you have that much income, and you can have that much and more without stating the total and without being dishonest.

I was thinking about that point also.

I dug out my Income Letter from the US Embassy from last year.

The relevant part: "I also affirm that I receive in amount of US$ ________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

Given that the point of the letter is to certify that I meet the minimum income requirement, any amount over that requirement is really irrelevant.

[mgjackson69]

Now you're making it more complicated. Look at the OP. It's an American. It's about retirement. I wish he stated SOCIAL SECURITY because then we'd know what he's really talking about. I'd like to know how Americans are handling SOCIAL SECURITY benefits in this regard. Specifically, American Social Security benefit amounts.

Perhaps so

In the case of a US retiree with only Social Security as income, most likely his net and gross is going to be the same anyway (no tax owed). If he has other income sources that are going to cause the Social Security income to be taxable, he is likely to be making other tax arrangements anyway.

By all means, those US citizens here collecting Social Security chime in...I would guess most are adding up the amount of their monthly checks and using that figure for their extension of stay (for those that using the income method).

[akdraw]

It would be the retirement visa. I believe the US embassy has you swear you can meet the requirement then issues the affidavit. I've read some have been asked to show proof when completing visa or checking in for the 90 day. I want no problems and plan on covering all the bases.

You can not cover all bases in Thailand, all is just unattainable.

Gross or Net Income, defined by whom? It does not matter, nobody wants to deal with the details of it.

Yes you right no one can cover all the bases whether in Thailand or anywhere else. Just trying to research and cover as many bases I can to keep problems to a minimum.

To answer your question, Gross or Net income defined by Thai immigration. I've read they rarely do but have asked for proof of income so it does matter to me.

I'm not the sharpest tool maybe you're trying to be helpful, sorry I missed it but thanks for chiming in. Good day to you Sir.

Thai Immigration has not defined income, net or gross. Do your research and you will find that it is up to the individual officer what is required and what is required of the person before or after you may be different from what is required of you. Details of income are so rarely required it is not worth worrying about as long as you take a bath, groom yourself reasonably and wear the same clothes you have been wearing for the past two weeks.

Thank you Dante99, Good advise I can use that.

Edited January 18, 2016 by akdraw

[NancyL]

Given that the Income Letter from the U.S. Consulate says "I also affirm that I receive in amount of US$ ________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources." Hubby always fills in the blank with the amount he receives from Social Security and a regular monthly pension from a private employer. That amount equals what is on the 1099 forms used when we do our annual income tax filing. He has other sources of income, like disbursements from 401k, bank interest, dividend income, etc but doesn't bother to include that income because if ever asked to provide proof to Immigration, it's going to be complicated to explain these non-regular income streams. They can wrap their head around the concept of a "pensioner" receiving a regular monthly income and since his SS and private pension are well above 65,000 baht, he just totals the amount on the 1099s and writes that on the Consulate's form.

[mgjackson69]

Given that the Income Letter from the U.S. Consulate says "I also affirm that I receive in amount of US$ ________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources." Hubby always fills in the blank with the amount he receives from Social Security and a regular monthly pension from a private employer. That amount equals what is on the 1099 forms used when we do our annual income tax filing. He has other sources of income, like disbursements from 401k, bank interest, dividend income, etc but doesn't bother to include that income because if ever asked to provide proof to Immigration, it's going to be complicated to explain these non-regular income streams. They can wrap their head around the concept of a "pensioner" receiving a regular monthly income and since his SS and private pension are well above 65,000 baht, he just totals the amount on the 1099s and writes that on the Consulate's form.

That seems to fit with the spirit of the requirement.

I very seriously doubt that most Thai Immigration officials could grasp, nor do they care about, the intricacies of other countries tax systems and various financial definitions of "income".

They care about what you have available to meet the obligations here.

[Dante99]

Given that the Income Letter from the U.S. Consulate says "I also affirm that I receive in amount of US$ ________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources." Hubby always fills in the blank with the amount he receives from Social Security and a regular monthly pension from a private employer. That amount equals what is on the 1099 forms used when we do our annual income tax filing. He has other sources of income, like disbursements from 401k, bank interest, dividend income, etc but doesn't bother to include that income because if ever asked to provide proof to Immigration, it's going to be complicated to explain these non-regular income streams. They can wrap their head around the concept of a "pensioner" receiving a regular monthly income and since his SS and private pension are well above 65,000 baht, he just totals the amount on the 1099s and writes that on the Consulate's form.

So Hubby totals the amounts from 1099s which are annual amounts and writes that total on the CM US Consul form which is a declaration of monthly income.......

Did you forget to include "divide by 12" somewhere? Or is that not necessary/important?

[hml367]

I think many posters are severely underestimating what Thai Immigration officials do or do not understand. They may not think the Western way, but they are not oblivious to obvious things..... especially having to do with money.

Many foreigners also do not seem to understand that just because a Thai will not acknowledge everything a foreigner says does not mean they do not understand.

FolkGuitar likes to tell about his time in Japan.... ask him what it is like doing business with a Japanese... it is, after all, Asian, although on a different level.

[mgjackson69]

I think many posters are severely underestimating what Thai Immigration officials do or do not understand. They may not think the Western way, but they are not oblivious to obvious things..... especially having to do with money.

Many foreigners also do not seem to understand that just because a Thai will not acknowledge everything a foreigner says does not mean they do not understand.

FolkGuitar likes to tell about his time in Japan.... ask him what it is like doing business with a Japanese... it is, after all, Asian, although on a different level.

FolkGuitar's experiences in Japan notwithstanding, this is not about "doing business"...it is about Thai Immigration and income requirements for certain categories of visas and extensions of stay.

The next time a Thai Immigration officer asks "Is this gross or net?" will be the first time.

Edited January 19, 2016 by mgjackson69

[Dante99]

I think many posters are severely underestimating what Thai Immigration officials do or do not understand.

Oh so true. On many accounts.

It is difficult to imagine the level of stupidity and inconsideration required for people to use this forum to throw shit on the table of Immigration which they and others must use.

[Jingthing]

The amount on 1099 is Gross income, yes?

[mgjackson69]

The amount on 1099 is Gross income, yes?

The amount shown on a 1099 is gross, by definition.

For example, if you have money in an interest-bearing bank account, the interest paid to you is reported to you (and the IRS) via a form 1099.

There is no tax withholding done by the bank.

[NancyL]

Yes, it's the gross income on the 1099 and yes Hubby divides by 12 for the U.S. Consulate Income Letter.

It's not that he's underestimating the intellectual abilities of Thai gov't officials, it's just that the Consulate's form says that he has to fill in the blank for money received "every month from the United States Government and/or other sources" the other income isn't received every month.

[Jingthing]

So that basically answers the questions for the OP, assuming he was asking about a social security check. That answer again is the GROSS amount.

[mgjackson69]

So that basically answers the questions for the OP, assuming he was asking about a social security check. That answer again is the GROSS amount.

No

Which is correct, "Gross" or "net", has not been answered...what some posters are using has been answered.

Nobody, including myself, have given a definitive answer as to which is correct.

There have been arguments given for both sides.

[Bill97]

What is net income? Exactly what is deducted from gross income to get it?

Take the simple case of someone working for a salary.

Gross pay is what your employer pays you each period.

Deduct taxes (federal, state, local whichever are applicable)

Deduct for medical insurance if that is part of your deal.

Deduct for 401k or other self-funded retirement plan.

What is deposited to your bank or given to you in cash or a check is net.

So if your pay has been garnished for alimony, child support, college loan payments, legal settlement or any number of other reasons, the "net" you have left to deposit is reduced by those amounts. Correct?

[Jingthing]

So that basically answers the questions for the OP, assuming he was asking about a social security check. That answer again is the GROSS amount.

No

Which is correct, "Gross" or "net", has not been answered...what some posters are using has been answered.

Nobody, including myself, have given a definitive answer as to which is correct.

There have been arguments given for both sides.

I suppose. But again, the OP is most likely referring to a U.S. social security check. Stating the 1099 of that check, which is the GROSS amount, sounds very logical and very supportable at immigration.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Jingthing

[TheAppletons]

The answer to the OP is "yes". Thai Immigration does not specify gross or net. Use what you want.

[Tywais]

Not Chiang Mai specific so moving to Home country section which covers this - 'Pensions, regulations, laws, etc. that affect expats living in Thailand. No visa related topics.'

[Eclipse]

The Gross figure is used.