Salary Expectations

[gadg]

In the Bangkok Post adverts, most of the times a respondent is asked to send their salary expectations too. What is the norm here, is it 'the opening of negotiations', 'what I actually expect to make' or 'what I think this position should make at the minimum/most/average' ?

[Casanundra]

Is this the ads for 'Thai's need only apply' or the ones that foreigners are allowed to do because the salary will be different for sure depending on which one you are allowed to apply for.

[zaz]

I'd say expect anything between a monthly salary of 4000 THB upto 250000 THB...............did you have a particular job in mind?

[GuestHouse]

If you have a job ask for 20% above what you are earning, if you don't get the job stay where you are.

If you don't have a job Up2U, but I'd go for 30% above what you think you need to live on.

did you have a particular job in mind?

If you find an opening in Thailand.... DON'T EVER EVER TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT.

No offense to Zaz. Just a general point I'm making.

[zaz]

If you find an opening in Thailand.... DON'T EVER EVER TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT.

No offense to Zaz. Just a general point I'm making.

None taken - a good and valid point certainly.

[gadg]

If you have a job ask for 20% above what you are earning, if you don't get the job stay where you are.

If you don't have a job Up2U, but I'd go for 30% above what you think you need to live on.

did you have a particular job in mind?

If you find an opening in Thailand.... DON'T EVER EVER TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT.

No offense to Zaz. Just a general point I'm making.

Thanks. A lot of adverts are for Thai nationals only, true. There really is no sense in responding to them as a foreigerner, I take it? It has nothing to do with a work permit but they really only want Thai nationals? Why is that? I saw the comments but figured 'if they really only want a Thai national, why post in an English language newspaper?' ... (please excuse my ignorance)

The percentages answer my question and confirm what I thought would be the case, what I would put in a job application I guess is an opening bid for negotiations.

[Casanundra]

They put them in the paper in English because clearly their target audience is Thai's who can speak and read English.

The reason they put Thai's only need apply in their ads is because the Thai's honestly believe that no foreigner can do anything better than a Thai so why employ someone inferior in their eyes...

What makes me laugh is the amount of jobs that I keep seeing coming up time and time again for senior positions with skills that cannot be filled by a Thai and yet they won't employ a foreigner with the right skills, experience and quals for that job either because it would mean admitting that a Thai doesn't have the right skills for it in the first place, and that my friends would simply never be allowed to happen. So the job remains open for months on end instead.

Let's give them some leeway though, because I guess the Thai companies are somewhat constrained by the Work Permit rules which pretty much dictate that the foreigner has to be a 'foreign specialist' who is doing a job that no Thai national can do (like teach English) and after looking at the list of restricted jobs that we are not allowed to do then it is pretty much limited in what is considered to be a specialist anyway.

I have 3 degrees with 20 years experience behind me and I am the right side of 40 (just) and yet I am severely restricted here in what I am allowed to do.

It could be worse mind because if you was working in Indonesia, the rules there ensure that the company or 'you as an employee' pays $1500 USD per year to the "train an Indonesian fund" for every foreigner that is employed in Indonesia, with the intent of training an Indonesian to the level that no longer requires you to be taking their job.

They say: 'You want to stay - no problem get a job'

We say 'ok, give us the opporunity to get a job'

They say ' We would love to but you aren't a native so we cannot until everyone here can compete with you so please go home and come back in 20 years... oh and take Big C, tesco, 7/11 and Carrefour with you too because they too are affecting our inefficent poor retailers who are feeling put out by all your foreign devils'

Ah life in Asia...

Edited October 18, 2006 by Casanundra

[GuestHouse]

The reason they put Thai's only need apply in their ads is because the Thai's honestly believe that no foreigner can do anything better than a Thai so why employ someone inferior in their eyes...

I would assume the reason they put Thais Only Need Apply is because they want to employ a Thai.

[Gerry290]

or maybe they just could not be bother going through the hassel of getting a work permit.

I have seen this in Ireland, working in recruitment, where I might have a perfect candidate from say South Africa, who has much needed and in demand IT skills, yet some companies will not even bother to interview him, even though they are crying out for the skills, because they consider it too much of a hassel to issue a work permit.

and in ireland for high demand IT skills we cannot find in the EU, it is easy enough to get a work permit issued.

some just cannot be bothered issuing work permits.

Plus maybe they figure the Thai will come cheaper than the frang.?

[Unknown]

In the Bangkok Post adverts, most of the times a respondent is asked to send their salary expectations too.

Most companies anywhere in the world will ask you your salary expectations.

And do not think giving a low figure will automatically land you a job.

But if it does, you'll be stuck with the low salary up to the end of time...

[tutsiwarrior]

if you hire out locally expect a local salary...pocket money...good for sum smokes...

if you are falang with falang sensibilities you want to be an expatriate on an expatriate package including housing, transport, medical, etc. and a tax free salary about USD10K per month.

Don't even think about it otherwise...

[gadg]

Most companies anywhere in the world will ask you your salary expectations.

True, I'm just not used to having to write about it in my application letter. So I was wondering about the customs in Thailand, thats all.

[migrant]

At my company (here in California) I always ask for salary expectations.

The reason why is I get MBA's applying for secretarial positions (an extreme, but close).

I don't want to waste my, or the candidate's, time if salary expectations are out of line.

[pete_r]

The reason they put Thai's only need apply in their ads is because the Thai's honestly believe that no foreigner can do anything better than a Thai so why employ someone inferior in their eyes...

I would assume the reason they put Thais Only Need Apply is because they want to employ a Thai.

Also, in a Thai context, a Thai will know who to speak to and how, better than a farang in order to get things done. That's a strong advantage.

[Jimjim]

At my company (here in California) I always ask for salary expectations.

The reason why is I get MBA's applying for secretarial positions (an extreme, but close).

I don't want to waste my, or the candidate's, time if salary expectations are out of line.

Here is a way not to waste the candidates' time. Say, "For this position we were thinking of paying this amount. If you feel you're worth more for this position, please tell us why." And there should be no right or wrong answer. But I think it's a cop-out for employers to ask candidates to do this without even giving an idea of what they will pay. If a candidate gives lower than they will pay, and they like the candidate, then great for them, they don't have to pay so much.

I think it's just professional for an employer to give a figure before asking the candidate their figure. I've read experts say this many times and I agree.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Jimjim

[pedro01]

At my company (here in California) I always ask for salary expectations.

The reason why is I get MBA's applying for secretarial positions (an extreme, but close).

I don't want to waste my, or the candidate's, time if salary expectations are out of line.

Here is a way not to waste the candidates' time. Say, "For this position we were thinking of paying this amount. If you feel you're worth more for this position, please tell us why." And there should be no right or wrong answer. But I think it's a cop-out for employers to ask candidates to do this without even giving an idea of what they will pay. If a candidate gives lower than they will pay, and they like the candidate, then great for them, they don't have to pay so much.

I think it's just professional for an employer to give a figure before asking the candidate their figure. I've read experts say this many times and I agree.

Not naming your price is standard practise here. Part of being a good negotiator is not showing your hand first - so it makes sense as an employer to do this IF you can do it & still get quality applicants. In my experience, this technique does not stop people from applying. It MAY waste a few peoples time - but that's not my concern. My concern is getting the best people for the job & I do that by considering as many people as possible. Some MAY be out of my price range but I may change my expectations for their salary if their skills look so good.

For "Thais only" - here's why I do it...

1 - I want to pay a Thai salary, otherwise no point me being here

2 - If I employ a farang on a local salary, I will presume he'll still be looking for an expat package so I could lose my investment

3 - I have a finite allocation of work permits. I will keep these 'in reserve' until I REALLY need them, what if I use my allocation unecessarily and then find a skill I cannot source locally ? It'd be irresponsible to put the company in that position.

4 - I DO NOT want to sit through another interview where some 50 year old guy tells me how he came here on holiday and 'fell in love with the country'. I used to ask which part they fell in love with - and you can guess with 3 or 4 cities rated highest. One guy even brought his Isaarn girlfriend to a job interview to show me how serious he was.

5 - A farang working here for the first time will have many cultural differences to get over and will be at odds with the Thai staff and the way they work. My goal is to employ someone that can fit in straight away.

6 - I like working with Thais - they don't complain as much as farangs at work !

This all may sound unfair/cruel/harsh - but I have a business to run & my business comes first. I'll employ an expat when it's necessary, not just for any run of the mill job.

Pedro

[bendix]

Great post Pedro.

It's worth pointing out that companies employ staff - be they farang or thai - solely for the benefit of helping the company and its business prospects. They don't employ people solely to give that person a job if they don't need them. This aint the 1960s Soviet Economy, you know.

[thaigene2]

"They put them in the paper in English because clearly their target audience is Thai's who can speak and read English.

The reason they put Thai's only need apply in their ads is because the Thai's honestly believe that no foreigner can do anything better than a Thai so why employ someone inferior in their eyes...

What makes me laugh is the amount of jobs that I keep seeing coming up time and time again for senior positions with skills that cannot be filled by a Thai [...]"

Yes..and they keep re-posting them in the same bad English over and over..probably proof-read by the Hi-So boss's nephew/niece who studied 'English'..no one would dare point out his/her errors either..

[bendix]

Yes, it's completely outrageous that companies in Thailand should prefer to hire . . ummm . . Thai people.

Perhaps we should lobby for some kind of Government inquiry into the inequities of employers preferring to hire their own citizens.

I am outraged.

[steveromagnino]

Yes, it's completely outrageous that companies in Thailand should prefer to hire . . ummm . . Thai people.

Perhaps we should lobby for some kind of Government inquiry into the inequities of employers preferring to hire their own citizens.

I am outraged.

Indeed.

Some people seem to have a fairly over the top opinion of themselves, and not being offered every job in sight doesn't ever seem to dent that belief. After all, no Thai could ever do a job as complex as er, basic management, marketing, sales, accounting, finance or anything difficult like engineering. Sheeesh.

However, I know it hasn't dented my own personal belief that I am a genius saddled with the baggage of stupidity.

Edited October 24, 2006 by steveromagnino

[younghusband]

Great post Pedro.

It's worth pointing out that companies employ staff - be they farang or thai - solely for the benefit of helping the company and its business prospects. They don't employ people solely to give that person a job if they don't need them. This aint the 1960s Soviet Economy, you know.

Obviously this is correct.Even though generous expatriate packages are less common than they used to be, no employer whether Thai or foreign would dream of employing a foreigner unless it could be clearly demonstrated that by doing so the business's profitability would be increased.On top of this there is often an official requirement to localise over time (eg BOI privileges localisation timetable) and obviously very few foreigners can compete in say marketing with Thais who have the benefit of language, cultural comprehension and a network built up over many years.

So having said all this why do so many companies-both Thai and foreign- often prefer to employ farang in senior positions when it is more expensive to do so.I'm obviously talking about serious companies not crappy little beerbars for bored ex-sex tourists.There are many reasons but here are a few.

1.Thai males often become "inactive" at the age of 40, preferring to have look norng running around covering for them.

2.Home grown Thai males (ie without extensive training overseas) do have a tendency to be idle,superficial and generally useless.Very few can be entrusted to cope with overseas negotiations and their language skills tend to be dubious.

3.Thai males suffer from a cultural trait of always opting for the short cut.They cannot generally hack hard drilling down analysis.If you want a laugh ask a typical Thai executive to prepare a 10 page report.

4.Corruption comes easy to Thai males, not necessarily in the obvious way but I've lost count of the number of farang executives who found their male Thai staff were batting for the other side (and I don't mean as poofters)

So because so mant Thai executives are thooroghly useless farang are often employed in positions that really should be localised.

Somehow Thai women are exempt from these weaknesses.I think the inadequacy of Thai men something to do with little Thai boys being so spoilt that they never really grow up.

[bendix]

Great post Pedro.

It's worth pointing out that companies employ staff - be they farang or thai - solely for the benefit of helping the company and its business prospects. They don't employ people solely to give that person a job if they don't need them. This aint the 1960s Soviet Economy, you know.

Obviously this is correct.Even though generous expatriate packages are less common than they used to be, no employer whether Thai or foreign would dream of employing a foreigner unless it could be clearly demonstrated that by doing so the business's profitability would be increased.On top of this there is often an official requirement to localise over time (eg BOI privileges localisation timetable) and obviously very few foreigners can compete in say marketing with Thais who have the benefit of language, cultural comprehension and a network built up over many years.

So having said all this why do so many companies-both Thai and foreign- often prefer to employ farang in senior positions when it is more expensive to do so.I'm obviously talking about serious companies not crappy little beerbars for bored ex-sex tourists.There are many reasons but here are a few.

1.Thai males often become "inactive" at the age of 40, preferring to have look norng running around covering for them.

2.Home grown Thai males (ie without extensive training overseas) do have a tendency to be idle,superficial and generally useless.Very few can be entrusted to cope with overseas negotiations and their language skills tend to be dubious.

3.Thai males suffer from a cultural trait of always opting for the short cut.They cannot generally hack hard drilling down analysis.If you want a laugh ask a typical Thai executive to prepare a 10 page report.

4.Corruption comes easy to Thai males, not necessarily in the obvious way but I've lost count of the number of farang executives who found their male Thai staff were batting for the other side (and I don't mean as poofters)

So because so mant Thai executives are thooroghly useless farang are often employed in positions that really should be localised.

Somehow Thai women are exempt from these weaknesses.I think the inadequacy of Thai men something to do with little Thai boys being so spoilt that they never really grow up.

Well, where do I begin . . . . . . . ? Help me out here stevemarigno. A retort from you might carry more weight.

[davidjtayler]

Great post Pedro.

It's worth pointing out that companies employ staff - be they farang or thai - solely for the benefit of helping the company and its business prospects. They don't employ people solely to give that person a job if they don't need them. This aint the 1960s Soviet Economy, you know.

Obviously this is correct.Even though generous expatriate packages are less common than they used to be, no employer whether Thai or foreign would dream of employing a foreigner unless it could be clearly demonstrated that by doing so the business's profitability would be increased.On top of this there is often an official requirement to localise over time (eg BOI privileges localisation timetable) and obviously very few foreigners can compete in say marketing with Thais who have the benefit of language, cultural comprehension and a network built up over many years.

So having said all this why do so many companies-both Thai and foreign- often prefer to employ farang in senior positions when it is more expensive to do so.I'm obviously talking about serious companies not crappy little beerbars for bored ex-sex tourists.There are many reasons but here are a few.

1.Thai males often become "inactive" at the age of 40, preferring to have look norng running around covering for them.

2.Home grown Thai males (ie without extensive training overseas) do have a tendency to be idle,superficial and generally useless.Very few can be entrusted to cope with overseas negotiations and their language skills tend to be dubious.

3.Thai males suffer from a cultural trait of always opting for the short cut.They cannot generally hack hard drilling down analysis.If you want a laugh ask a typical Thai executive to prepare a 10 page report.

4.Corruption comes easy to Thai males, not necessarily in the obvious way but I've lost count of the number of farang executives who found their male Thai staff were batting for the other side (and I don't mean as poofters)

So because so mant Thai executives are thooroghly useless farang are often employed in positions that really should be localised.

Somehow Thai women are exempt from these weaknesses.I think the inadequacy of Thai men something to do with little Thai boys being so spoilt that they never really grow up.

If you actually believe any of the above BS thats come from your keyboard younghusband then you need to seek counselling .....

[opothai]

totally agree with you guys, why go throught the head ache of employing any foriegn national when you can get a thai national to do the job in hand.

same as my company in the uk we only employ british nationals as they are more suited to the employment without the headaches that go with employing foreigners.

[JimsKnight]

if you hire out locally expect a local salary...pocket money...good for sum smokes...

if you are falang with falang sensibilities you want to be an expatriate on an expatriate package including housing, transport, medical, etc. and a tax free salary about USD10K per month.

Don't even think about it otherwise...

And expat packages like this are as real as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow!

I've only heard of such packages being put together for places like Singapore, Hong Kong and the like, you also need hefty graduate skills.

[samran]

Great post Pedro.

It's worth pointing out that companies employ staff - be they farang or thai - solely for the benefit of helping the company and its business prospects. They don't employ people solely to give that person a job if they don't need them. This aint the 1960s Soviet Economy, you know.

Obviously this is correct.Even though generous expatriate packages are less common than they used to be, no employer whether Thai or foreign would dream of employing a foreigner unless it could be clearly demonstrated that by doing so the business's profitability would be increased.On top of this there is often an official requirement to localise over time (eg BOI privileges localisation timetable) and obviously very few foreigners can compete in say marketing with Thais who have the benefit of language, cultural comprehension and a network built up over many years.

So having said all this why do so many companies-both Thai and foreign- often prefer to employ farang in senior positions when it is more expensive to do so.I'm obviously talking about serious companies not crappy little beerbars for bored ex-sex tourists.There are many reasons but here are a few.

1.Thai males often become "inactive" at the age of 40, preferring to have look norng running around covering for them.

2.Home grown Thai males (ie without extensive training overseas) do have a tendency to be idle,superficial and generally useless.Very few can be entrusted to cope with overseas negotiations and their language skills tend to be dubious.

3.Thai males suffer from a cultural trait of always opting for the short cut.They cannot generally hack hard drilling down analysis.If you want a laugh ask a typical Thai executive to prepare a 10 page report.

4.Corruption comes easy to Thai males, not necessarily in the obvious way but I've lost count of the number of farang executives who found their male Thai staff were batting for the other side (and I don't mean as poofters)

So because so mant Thai executives are thooroghly useless farang are often employed in positions that really should be localised.

Somehow Thai women are exempt from these weaknesses.I think the inadequacy of Thai men something to do with little Thai boys being so spoilt that they never really grow up.

Well, where do I begin . . . . . . . ? Help me out here stevemarigno. A retort from you might carry more weight.

Where indeed!

[younghusband]

Putting to one side the braindead bs response from one poster,it appears some may be genuinely flummoxed by my post, including serious people like Samran.All I can say is that most foreigners with a reasonable history of corporate experience in Thailand (and let's admit it that excludes 99% of Thai Visa members) would agree with most of what I say if not the rather colouful way I expressed it.It doesn't mean there aren't a great many excellent male Thai executives but there are far fewer than there should be.

[thaigene2]

I don't know about all of your points - but I recognize some truth there.

If you had a multi-billion baht project (like the airport, hmmm???) wouldn't you think it might be a good idea to bring in foreign quality assurance inspectors and maybe even senior foreign finance officers - to make sure you were actually getting what you were paying for (e.g. the expensive floortiles not the cheap ones, etc)?

Airport maybe not a great example - but if it was a foreign-thai joint venture where the foreign company (as so often the case) is putting up 80% - 100% of the investment, I would almost demand this.

[thaigene2]

..one other thing to those 'outraged' by younghusband's remarks. I'll bet you've all seen those announcements in the Post and Nation that say something like "Mr. Sompong Sirichingbangrattiri is no longer with Ajaz Co Thai Ltd and the company is not responsible for any of his actions, ..yada, yada..Often there is even a photo of the guy!

Can't remember ever seeing any women's names in these announcements..

[Gary A]

WOW tutsi ! I'm happily retired but for that kind of package, I'd seriously consider going back to work. I'd say packages like that are few and far between.

if you hire out locally expect a local salary...pocket money...good for sum smokes...

if you are falang with falang sensibilities you want to be an expatriate on an expatriate package including housing, transport, medical, etc. and a tax free salary about USD10K per month.

Don't even think about it otherwise...