How to ask in Thai "Are you open?"

[Tahnil]

[เปิดแล้วไหม]

Again this is incorrect and never used.

Use in stead:

เปิดแล้วยัง

Or frequently shortened to just เปิดยัง

as I have heard from Thai people, เปิดยัง could be the best ; as for other examples, I have already heard " kin khao yang" , or " sook yang " ( ripe already ? ) ; too many " krap ", I never hear , I would say that Thai people I meet ( apart " sawadi krap " or " kop koun krap " ), never say krap, so do I

Note that เปิดแล้วยัง was only to correct somebody's suggestion เปิดแล้วไหม.

This is only used at the beginning of the opening hours when you are not sure if they are open or when you are asking if the place is now open for business after it was closed or for the first time.

If you are going to pick the best, use เปิดไหม or are you open?

เปิดยัง is "are you open yet?" You can see why that may be of limited use.

[tgeezer]

Tahnil, rather than being offensive you should be grateful to me for reminding you of something which you had forgotten.

I have re-read this thread to try to see what the hell went wrong and noticed several inconsistencies.

In post number 3 you stated เปิดไหม "literally open no? "

In post 8 you compounded the mistake: ไหม is ไม่ no, in question form, high tone Open no?

I didn't comment on these obvious mistakes.

I posted with a full sentence which was not in the least controversial; I was quite fair to you in fact. ( and I mean quite). Which didn't deserve your description 'gibberish', further you equated ครับ with 'sir' which made me wonder why and prompted me to ask if you were ลูกครึ่ง for reasons which I have explained.

You also said for the benefit of those who you are teaching that "it is only in time and with much more learning will you maybe care to say more" . I did not comment on the odd prose there; restricting my reply to simply how I see ครับ and ครับผม.

This is why you should be thanking me because at this point you revised your explanation of เปิดไหม open no? To เปิดไหม open 'or not'? the official definition of ไหม.

So the crap about ไหม being the question form of ไม่ said in a high tone is still in the thread, hopefully no one will take any notice of earlier posts.

In 14 you stated that succinct is considered beautiful in Thai, which renders your suggestion in post 8 pointless.

You described a basic sentence consisting of four words plus a question word as "long and drawn out! Language changes I know, but it cannot have reached the level where a basic sentence plus one adverb and what is effectively a question mark is considered too much.

In post number 21 in response to my saying that learners should know what they are saying you made the unsubstantiated statement that I didn't know what I was saying. I know what I am saying if you don't, then you can ask me.

With the exception of pointing out that as foreigners we are not expected to speak like Thais using the rather crude "Who the hell.... " I have been reasonable I think, you, on the other hand, have blustered throughout.

[Boycie]

How would you say in Thai....."is this thread still open?"

Would you shorten it to "still open"..."thread open or not"....

Or just put everyone out of the misery and say 555

[Richard W]

Tahnil, rather than being offensive you should be grateful to me for reminding you of something which you had forgotten.

I have re-read this thread to try to see what the hell went wrong and noticed several inconsistencies.

In post number 3 you stated เปิดไหม "literally open no? "

In post 8 you compounded the mistake: ไหม is ไม่ no, in question form, high tone Open no?

I didn't comment on these obvious mistakes.

I don't believe there is a mistake. It is very hard to believe that ไหม is not a modification of ไม่ to form an interrogative. I have owned a pocket dictionary wherein the only meaning given for ไหม was 'silk'. There's a tendency to make the same tone change to synonymous บ่. As for a literal rendering, I think 'no?' preceded by a comma works better than 'or not'. The result is more likely to be acceptable English!

[CMBob]

I don't believe there is a mistake. It is very hard to believe that ไหม is not a modification of ไม่ to form an interrogative. I have owned a pocket dictionary wherein the only meaning given for ไหม was 'silk'. There's a tendency to make the same tone change to synonymous บ่. As for a literal rendering, I think 'no?' preceded by a comma works better than 'or not'. The result is more likely to be acceptable English!

Adding the "mai" (high tone) at the end of a sentence only turns it into a what I'd call a neutral question (one that's simply asking for a yes or no answer). I don't view it as doing anything other than that. I'm surprised, though, that your dictionary doesn't list it (the same word spelled the same way) as an interrogatory. Sort of like the English "to", "too", and "two"....which all sound the same but definitely have different meanings.

This whole thread has been a bit confusing and weird. For my two cents, I've never used (or even heard a Thai use) anything other than "bpert/pert mai" to ask if a shop is open....and the answer always has been "bpert/pert' or "mai bpert." (of course, most of the time one says and hears the krap/ka on the end of those comments)

[tgeezer]

Naturally some people won't know that ไหม stands for หรือไม่ Over time saying it as ไม้ and nowadays sometimes seeing it written as ไม้ or even ไม๊! a person might forget and draw the conclusion that if falling means no then high must mean no? .

I doubt that a Thai would think as you do because of course he won't know the English tone used to show doubt or question.

On reflection this is more of a 'monkey see monkey do' sort of forum at times. I don't think that I ever denied that เปิดไหม was said. The whole debacle started when I tried to introduce a little grammar to show how เปิดไหม or เปิดไม้ if that is how you say it, is arrived at.

As CMBob observed the question provides a choice of answers, เปิดหรือไม่

It doesn't take a genius to see that the literal translation is "open or no?

[Bredbury Blue]

Couldn't believe this forum had run to 2 pages.

Just asked my 13yr luuk khrung son's opinion and staight away he went for the simple:

Perd Mai

[Tahnil]

I don't believe there is a mistake. It is very hard to believe that ไหม is not a modification of ไม่ to form an interrogative. I have owned a pocket dictionary wherein the only meaning given for ไหม was 'silk'. There's a tendency to make the same tone change to synonymous บ่. As for a literal rendering, I think 'no?' preceded by a comma works better than 'or not'. The result is more likely to be acceptable English!

Adding the "mai" (high tone) at the end of a sentence only turns it into a what I'd call a neutral question (one that's simply asking for a yes or no answer). I don't view it as doing anything other than that. I'm surprised, though, that your dictionary doesn't list it (the same word spelled the same way) as an interrogatory. Sort of like the English "to", "too", and "two"....which all sound the same but definitely have different meanings.

This whole thread has been a bit confusing and weird. For my two cents, I've never used (or even heard a Thai use) anything other than "bpert/pert mai" to ask if a shop is open....and the answer always has been "bpert/pert' or "mai bpert." (of course, most of the time one says and hears the krap/ka on the end of those comments)

CMBob brings to attention a point that is not usually understood or well known.

There isn't quite the word "yes" in Thai.

The "bperd mai" is answered with "bperd" or "mai bperd."

You answer yes in the affirmative by repeating the adjective or verb of the query, the same with no but adding "mai."

[Tahnil]

[There isn't quite the word "yes" in Thai.]

Before all hell breaks loose, I should add:

"Krab" substitutes for the yes in answer.

But imagine a question, "..., yes?"

"Yes?" question does not translate to "krab?"

[CMBob]

Just asked my 13yr luuk khrung son's opinion and staight away he went for the simple:

Perd Mai

Bright kid!

Now, if he's really clever, he'll figure out a way to kill this thread...hehe.

[Tahnil]

เปิดไหม Perd Mai? (Don't pronounce the "r" and make the P sound more like a B, i.e., do not enunciate.)

Literally: Open, no?

As for the original query of this thread, to avoid confusion and to summarize:

Go with เปิดไหม (ครับ/คะ) Bperd Mai (krab/ka)?

[tgeezer]

Just asked my 13yr luuk khrung son's opinion and staight away he went for the simple:

Perd Mai

Bright kid!

Now, if he's really clever, he'll figure out a way to kill this thread...hehe.

What is wrong with this thread? Thai Visa is a commercial enterprise the more posts the bigger the business, it has taken this long before you and a few others felt qualified to make a comment and provide some benefit to the company.

[Gsxrnz]

Jeez!! Talk about a thread gone crazy. Here's my 2,000,000 Bahts worth.

I'm a minimalist in Thai - Thais seem to prefer it that way.

Just as in English, you could ask the question posed in many ways. I keep it simple.

If it looks like they "might" be open, I say the obligatory Sa-wat-dee kap pee/nong/long/ba or whatever. Then assuming it's a nong. I'll say "nong, nong.....bird reu yang". Simple translation "Open or not?"

If it looks like they're closed, do the same hello etc. and then say "bid reu yang". Simple translation "closed or not?"

Add/leave out the Kap/Ka as seems appropriate.

You can't go too far wrong with bird/bid reu yang - especially if you look at your watch while asking the question. Only 4 words to ask 2 questions. You can screw the tones totally and they'll understand you without exception.

OP - Maybe now you should ask the question "If they're closed/open, how do you ask them what time they open/close".

Then we can have a thousand post thread about how to tell the time in Thai.

But there again, I'm a minimalist - I'll ask them in standard 24 Hour fashion rather than asking for an answer in the Thai format.

[tgeezer]

There really is no need to learn any Thai, there are apps for 'phones where you choose the English and show the Thai person the Thai on the 'phone.

What could be simpler than that?

[Richard W]

You can't go too far wrong with bird/bid reu yang - especially if you look at your watch while asking the question. Only 4 words to ask 2 questions. You can screw the tones totally and they'll understand you without exception.

Except that '[L]sa[L]wat[M]dii [H]khrap. [L]poet [L]yuu [H]mai' might be more appropriate if you're not sure whether they're still open. As you say, look at your watch!

[Richard W]

I don't believe there is a mistake. It is very hard to believe that ไหม is not a modification of ไม่ to form an interrogative. I have owned a pocket dictionary wherein the only meaning given for ไหม was 'silk'. There's a tendency to make the same tone change to synonymous บ่. As for a literal rendering, I think 'no?' preceded by a comma works better than 'or not'. The result is more likely to be acceptable English!

Adding the "mai" (high tone) at the end of a sentence only turns it into a what I'd call a neutral question (one that's simply asking for a yes or no answer). I don't view it as doing anything other than that. I'm surprised, though, that your dictionary doesn't list it (the same word spelled the same way) as an interrogatory. Sort of like the English "to", "too", and "two"....which all sound the same but definitely have different meanings.

I wouldn't have said that adding 'No?' compromised neutrality, but obviously there can be different shades, and different understandings. Classical Greek uses the 'not' of indicative clauses to say 'yes' is expected, and the 'not' of other clauses to say 'no' is expected.

The first big Thai dictionary, Bishop Pallegoix's Thai to Latin/French/English dictionary (1854 AD), doesn't have ไหม (except as 'silk'), ครับ or ค่ะ (with tone mark), though it does have คะ as 'yes', and not as associated with questions. Michell's dictionary (1892 AD) is the same, so there is an annoying lexicographic tradition. (My observation of it is not original; I read a complaint long ago about Thai dictionaries not containing the particle ไหม.) I still have a pocket dictionary omitting interrogative ไหม, and it has the other three oddities. On the other hand, its English-Thai section gives จ้ะ, ค่ะ and ครับ for 'yes'. The dictionaries part company on จ้ะ. Pallegoix has จะ instead, Michell doesn't have it at all, and the pocket dictionary does have it, with the tone mark. I don't know how old the missing words are; I can well imagine that they are young words, and the use of tone marks on them certainly seems to be recent.

Naturally some people won't know that ไหม stands for หรือไม่ Over time saying it as ไม้ and nowadays sometimes seeing it written as ไม้ or even ไม๊! a person might forget and draw the conclusion that if falling means no then high must mean no? .

I doubt that a Thai would think as you do because of course he won't know the English tone used to show doubt or question.

Given the other interrogative words ไหน, หรือ, and perhaps คะ, I submit that the combination of position, tone and segmental sounds (same as ไม่) strongly suggest the actual meaning of ไหม.

[stoneyboy]

After 46 posts I shall stick with Bpert Mai in spoken language,it's always worked for me,wrong or not.

[Aforek]

When you say เปิดยัง does it sound like a question to you?

Of course it sounds like a question ; because it was a question by Thai people ( I admit that my examples with " yang " was for " sook yang and kin kao yang ); in the two examples I gave , and in the context and the intonation of the locuters, it was a question

may be it's not academic Thailanguage

[tgeezer]

I don't believe there is a mistake. It is very hard to believe that ไหม is not a modification of ไม่ to form an interrogative. I have owned a pocket dictionary wherein the only meaning given for ไหม was 'silk'. There's a tendency to make the same tone change to synonymous บ่. As for a literal rendering, I think 'no?' preceded by a comma works better than 'or not'. The result is more likely to be acceptable English!

Adding the "mai" (high tone) at the end of a sentence only turns it into a what I'd call a neutral question (one that's simply asking for a yes or no answer). I don't view it as doing anything other than that. I'm surprised, though, that your dictionary doesn't list it (the same word spelled the same way) as an interrogatory. Sort of like the English "to", "too", and "two"....which all sound the same but definitely have different meanings.

I wouldn't have said that adding 'No?' compromised neutrality, but obviously there can be different shades, and different understandings. Classical Greek uses the 'not' of indicative clauses to say 'yes' is expected, and the 'not' of other clauses to say 'no' is expected.

The first big Thai dictionary, Bishop Pallegoix's Thai to Latin/French/English dictionary (1854 AD), doesn't have ไหม (except as 'silk'), ครับ or ค่ะ (with tone mark), though it does have คะ as 'yes', and not as associated with questions. Michell's dictionary (1892 AD) is the same, so there is an annoying lexicographic tradition. (My observation of it is not original; I read a complaint long ago about Thai dictionaries not containing the particle ไหม.) I still have a pocket dictionary omitting interrogative ไหม, and it has the other three oddities. On the other hand, its English-Thai section gives จ้ะ, ค่ะ and ครับ for 'yes'. The dictionaries part company on จ้ะ. Pallegoix has จะ instead, Michell doesn't have it at all, and the pocket dictionary does have it, with the tone mark. I don't know how old the missing words are; I can well imagine that they are young words, and the use of tone marks on them certainly seems to be recent.

Naturally some people won't know that ไหม stands for หรือไม่ Over time saying it as ไม้ and nowadays sometimes seeing it written as ไม้ or even ไม๊! a person might forget and draw the conclusion that if falling means no then high must mean no? .

I doubt that a Thai would think as you do because of course he won't know the English tone used to show doubt or question.

Given the other interrogative words ไหน, หรือ, and perhaps คะ, I submit that the combination of position, tone and segmental sounds (same as ไม่) strongly suggest the actual meaning of ไหม.

Richard.

My feeling that the original question word was and still is หรือ after all เปิดยัง เปิดไม้ have no more grammatical meaning than เปิดเปล่า . If people learnt to include หรือ the little pause implying หรือ comes naturally with practice. เอา'เปา.

Can you find in your old books any questions using the pronoun ใคร .

When that word turns up in a sentence people have to decide whether to make it 'who? or 'somebody' .

When used as a question ใครหยิบหนังสือบนโต๊ะไป. "Who has taken..." or "Somebody has taken... "

It seems very likely that to make a question หรือ would have been added.

[Richard W]

My feeling that the original question word was and still is หรือ after all เปิดยัง เปิดไม้ have no more grammatical meaning than เปิดเปล่า . If people learnt to include หรือ the little pause implying หรือ comes naturally with practice. เอา'เปา.

That argument doesn't work. As I pointed out earlier, both the main Greek words for 'not' also serve as question markers, and in Classical Latin questions were marked by appending a suffice meaning 'not', namely nē, to the first full word in a sentence.

Can you find in your old books any questions using the pronoun ใคร .

When that word turns up in a sentence people have to decide whether to make it 'who? or 'somebody' .

When used as a question ใครหยิบหนังสือบนโต๊ะไป. "Who has taken..." or "Somebody has taken... "

It seems very likely that to make a question หรือ would have been added.

I don't have any old books beyond those dictionaries. You may take comfort from the fact that ใคร is only given the meaning 'who?', but it is false comfort. The corresponding Latin word quis also means both 'who?' and 'anyone' / 'somebody', and no interrogative word beyond quis is required.

[bearpolar]

I think that it is best to learn complete sentences then in time cut the words you don't want to use. You open(ed) shop (แล้ว) or yet.

คุณเปิดร้านแล้วหรือยังครับ

I am not trying to gainsay Tahnil he is a native speaker, I would give the same advice to an English teacher.

Naturally you wont be saying all that when you know more. Its like teaching people to say : "aryeropenyet" before "Are you open yet." Many Thais think that 'gonna' is one word.

From what i have seen, when natives teach us to make short "normal" answers, it doesnt help you become very good. The people i know that can almost pass for thais have all learned to answer in very long sentences just like you wrote. Obviously bpeut yang is best but for a studying thai's perpective its bad.

A good way to prove this outside of people i know of, is my kids. I speak complete sentences in my language, i make sure to make my sentences unusually hard to understand very often. My son even with a speech problem is speaking very well in my native language now and my other one as well while their thais, that is always dumbed down way too much is terrible. I speak a lot more thai then them and i started learning a few months ago(after being exposed to it for 8 years).

My son is 7 and he couldnt say "my teacher left the school for personal reasons", he had to say "teacher is sick" because he has only heard dumbed down thai from all thais for 7 years(and no thai school).

[tgeezer]

You and I are in the minority it seems.

[bearpolar]

Have you seen how the average thai speaks? They are going through the same dumbing down that the west is going through.. Few people speak elegantly and most just try to speak as quickly as possible. They even have that dumb trend of dumbing down spelling of words to make it cool.

Everytime i try to use a few longer adjectives to describe a word, im being told NO its not good, no its not that.. this is the right way to say it "xxx" but then i ask, about 3-4 times do those words mean what i asked? ahh yes yes ok i give up.

Like today someone told me pout kii for i have to poop urgently.. Never heard pout before.. "dtoong kii mak mak" no, its not good. We dont use that.. 5 mins later i get a yes it means the same. Jesus is it so hard to use more words to talk? Even my teachers, i constantly ask can i say it this way and that way.. takes 5mins to get a yes its possible. Not everyone speaks the same in western language, some people use funny wordings to get a point across, thats what makes language so fun. Joss whedon is a TV director and writer that plays a lot with the language, it still means the same and its quirky, i like to do that to.

[Tahnil]

[Everytime i try to use a few longer adjectives to describe a word, im being told NO its not good, no its not that.. this is the right way to say it "xxx" but then i ask, about 3-4 times do those words mean what i asked? ahh yes yes ok i give up.]

You should direct your sentiments towards what the OP requested.

Bperd mai would be the more appropriate and more universally applicable.

As pointed out, other suggestions here only work under limited circumstances thus negating the original query.

This is not bad Thai by any stretch of the imagination, it is effective Thai.

You're not trying to confound the receiving party, or the OP isn't.

[Mooner]

Laan burt leaw Mai

Shop open already question.

So I've heard but I hear differentry things everyday.

[bearpolar]

[Everytime i try to use a few longer adjectives to describe a word, im being told NO its not good, no its not that.. this is the right way to say it "xxx" but then i ask, about 3-4 times do those words mean what i asked? ahh yes yes ok i give up.]

You should direct your sentiments towards what the OP requested.

Bperd mai would be the more appropriate and more universally applicable.

As pointed out, other suggestions here only work under limited circumstances thus negating the original query.

This is not bad Thai by any stretch of the imagination, it is effective Thai.

You're not trying to confound the receiving party, or the OP isn't.

"open?" in english isnt consired bad english

it's still piss poor human communication.

[Richard W]

There is, though, a Thai maxim คำเดียวก็พอ 'One word should be enough'. (The context supplies 'should', before anyone asks where it comes from in the translation.) I admit I don't like it, because it tends to require a subsequent ไม่เป็นไร 'Never mind' when needs are communicated inadequately.

[Tahnil]

[Everytime i try to use a few longer adjectives to describe a word, im being told NO its not good, no its not that.. this is the right way to say it "xxx" but then i ask, about 3-4 times do those words mean what i asked? ahh yes yes ok i give up.]

You should direct your sentiments towards what the OP requested.

Bperd mai would be the more appropriate and more universally applicable.

As pointed out, other suggestions here only work under limited circumstances thus negating the original query.

This is not bad Thai by any stretch of the imagination, it is effective Thai.

You're not trying to confound the receiving party, or the OP isn't.

"open?" in english isnt consired bad english

it's still piss poor human communication.

That is quite a prejudice.

You don't always make a speech and doing so isn't always superior communication.

[bearpolar]

[Everytime i try to use a few longer adjectives to describe a word, im being told NO its not good, no its not that.. this is the right way to say it "xxx" but then i ask, about 3-4 times do those words mean what i asked? ahh yes yes ok i give up.]

You should direct your sentiments towards what the OP requested.

Bperd mai would be the more appropriate and more universally applicable.

As pointed out, other suggestions here only work under limited circumstances thus negating the original query.

This is not bad Thai by any stretch of the imagination, it is effective Thai.

You're not trying to confound the receiving party, or the OP isn't.

"open?" in english isnt consired bad english

it's still piss poor human communication.

That is quite a prejudice.

You don't always make a speech and doing so isn't always superior communication.

" Hi sir, is your shop open yet?"

Doesnt take much time to say, its not a speech and its respectful

If your average communication with strangers is shorter than this, you are most likely very socially awkward. It's not hard to speak respectfully, it will only take 5-6 more movements of your tongue.

can even go as quick as "di krap, raan bpeut yang?" Still a lot better than a quick bpeut mhai

[Tahnil]

[" Hi sir, is your shop open yet?"

Doesnt take much time to say, its not a speech and its respectful

If your average communication with strangers is shorter than this, you are most likely very socially awkward. It's not hard to speak respectfully, it will only take 5-6 more movements of your tongue.]

Try to remember, this is really just your idea, it may or may not apply universally.

Nobody can or even should convince you otherwise, it's really fine as a personal idiosyncrasy.

For those learning Thai, I'm here to tell them that "bpeud mai, krabp or kha" is how a native speaker would say it, and it is considered very respectful due to the ending.

As someone here points out, he rarely hears Thais say krabp or kha in this situation when addressing a low status person.

But when in doubt or uncertain, using krabp or kha is considered well bred, well educated.

The most important point to keep in mind here, however, is "bpeud mai" is good for most if not all situations.

If your objective is clear, concise and effective communication, this is what you use until you know enough to branch off into many other perhaps more specific wordings.

[can even go as quick as "di krap, raan bpeut yang?" Still a lot better than a quick bpeut mhai]

As I had taken pain to point out at length earlier, this is universally not true, quite inappropriate if you use this near the closing time, for example.

Just like in English, how sensible is it to be asking effectively "have you opened the shop" when you should be asking "are you still open?"

It really should not be difficult for an English speaker to understand that "are you open" is always appropriate while "are you still open" may not be?