Teacher Licensing, Culture Testing, TCT

[MrSnrang]

Not good at all. One of the best teachers I've had has to leave the country because he doesn't have a diploma in education but has a bachelor's and masters degree in mathematics and only teaches math.

[frodo]

I'm rather confused with various threads giving different information. Whether it's here or on another forum, it seems that different people have different information.

I understand that all teachers will be required to get a teaching license by passing a Thai culture course (I really can't see the connection between a license and the way Thai's eat and dance...that's another issue). Unless I have misread something, it is still possible to get a teaching license if you have a degree and 1-year teaching experience.

s1214215: The person he spoke at the TCT to said that at the moment all that is requied is a degree and 1 years teaching experience, and that I should apply for a teaching licence with that.

From another thread on this topic, this was also stated:

Candidate Qualifications:

- Foreign teachers who have a right to hold the Teacher Profession Certificate (must have been working in school before June 12, 2003) and want to extend their certification in 2009.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1802187

Looking at what others have written, it seems as though there are no exceptions or extensions.

My question is this; If you have a degree (BA), TEFL certification, have been teaching here for six years, will you be denied your teaching license and non-imm canceled until you have completed this class, or will you be granted an extension until 2009/not have to do it at all (from s1214215's post above)?

There is so much information out there, and while much of it is very useful, much is also very contradicting. Any insight will be greatly helpful.

Thanks,

FR

[PeaceBlondie]

Not good at all. One of the best teachers I've had has to leave the country because he doesn't have a diploma in education but has a bachelor's and masters degree in mathematics and only teaches math.

Mr snrang, we're wondering if this guy left only because of the B.Ed. requirement (say, at a true international school that is so blinded by BEd/MEd/teaching certs that they can't think logically), or for some other reason such as demanding over 70K in salary.

[Petch01]

I like to answer, Frodo, but I won't. The moment I answer, another poster will contradict. That's the way it is on forums. No offense though.

Several posters have put links to official documents of The Teachers' Council of Thailand on this board. Find them, read them and answer your questions yourself.

All info is ON this forum!

Good luck, Petch01

[alaina]

It's not what the MOE implements, it's the way they always have, continue to and probably always will implement things half-assedly with piss poor communication and zero planning. They could require all teachers to wear ties, eat their vegetables and do morning calisthenics and it would have the same impact as whatever it is that they are going to implement now.

I have a degree in Education and I am getting different answers about my visa extension and TL every other day. Maybe I now have to take the Thai culture class, maybe I don't, maybe I need to pay them some absurd amount of money, maybe I don't... the answer changes daily and my visa expires in less than 30 days. I know that work visas are not easy in many countries, but I'm seriously thinking of going to a headhunter and leaving instead of dealing with border runs and working illegally until the MOE decides what they want to do. Professional teachers want to be treated professionally and the MOE is probably not capable of understanding this nevermind doing it.

Next year all BEd's will have to ride white elephants to school or learn to play saxophone or... I'm sure it will make some people think that Thailand is moving forward in education, somehow.

[aussiestyle1983]

I know that there is a lot of confusion about what is occurring at the moment, but there does seem to be some change coming for those wishing to teach in Thailand. I think that this will likely mean that some teachers may need to leave the profession or work illegally. This will mean a loss to students in many cases.

On the other hand, this may mean that ESl teaching gains a bit more respectability. It will not just be viewed as an avenue for unqualified backpackers and sex-tourists to extend their holiday (I know that these views of teachers are wrong but that is what many think). Gaining more qualifications would seem to indicate a commitment to the profession.

What do you think?

I don't think this will change the numbers of teachers. You will just see less foreign teachers on record and there will be more illegal teachers off record. Whatever Thailand does, it will never be able to fill the number of legal foreign teachers that it wants, but more importantly, native speaking foreign teachers; the ones that are required by most places that most places can't seem to get.

I just think more people will chose to go down the illegal path, so the same person who might once have been legal, might choose to go illegal. This will have no effect on the students becuase if teacher X was once legal and is now illegal because of this silly new law, well, teacher X is still in fact teacher X, so the students havent really lost their teacher. The only way the students will lose is when teacher X doesn't become illegal and leaves or teacher X gets caught and gets raped in Thai prison.

Either way, nothing will change. There will still be the same number of teachers, you might just find more illegals now. But there is no way the ESL teaching profession in Thailand will gain more credibility or respectability, because lets face it, if a country can not get the number of foreign qualified teachers that it needs, even because it wants the best, there is something wrong with the system in that country and it does not deserve any respect. Thailand needs a major paradigm shift in order to gain any credibility in anything it does, and that will never happen until saving face and other of the poorer aspects of Thai culture are dropped. The ESL profession in Thailand will always be a joke. Hahaha!

Edited February 6, 2008 by aussiestyle1983

[otherstuff1957]

Here's my prediction: If the changes proceed as planned, you will see a huge increase in the number of Phillipino teachers (they either have BEd's or know where Recto Ave is ) an increase in the number of temporary teachers working illegally and fairly small percentage of long term teachers jumping through all the hoops to become legal.

[garro]

I would think that with all the toughening up of the immigration laws that it is fairly difficult to work here as an illegal teacher. Will people get away with border-runs for a long period? It seems to me like a desperate way to live. Knowing that you could be deported at any second. I sympathise with people that need to do this, but surely it would be far easier to keep on trying to jump through whatever hoops the immigration office through at us.

[aussiestyle1983]

It seems to me like a desperate way to live.

We must not forget, Thailand attracts a lot of desperat people to begin with, and a lot of them end up teaching once they find how easily it is to get a job illegally and how much they can earn and the kind of lifestyle they can have. I'm sure such people will easily find a way to stay there. Most people are aware that there are people who choose to live in the kingdom illegally and with no visa at all, once the arrive, they just simply live there and mind their own business. This new law will do nothing to deter the illegals or people who want to teach. If there's a will, there's a way..........................

[Thaiboxer]

I agree with aussie; I know a couple guys with no degrees and only their TEFL certificates. A few years back, they had to do the border hop every 30 days. Both guys are still working/living here full time and I know for a fact that one of them has a work permit; despite all the "rules" requiring a degree to get a WP or even those requiring an education related degree to teach multiple subjects (which both these guys do). It's all about connections. If you know the right people, many of those hoops that normally need to be jumped through can simply be pushed aside. It will still be interesting to see what percentage of those currently teaching legally will go the underground route.

[Plus]

I believe Thailand is short of teachers, in tens of thousands, in all major.

It's not the time to tighten controls for those willing to enter the field. Is English situation any different? Do we have a surplus or shortage of foreign teachers?

[garro]

I find it strange that despite so many posts critical of the changes the majority of people in the poll still see the possible changes as being beneficial.

[withnail]

Unfortunately Petch01 the answer is not on this forum, the original documents have been written however how they will be implemented now it has come to crunch time has not quite been realised. If we take not just the official documentation but also what one or two of the other posters have said into account it seems that, as usual, what the authorities have said they are going to do and what they are going to do are not necessarily the same thing.

It seems from accounts from certain posters that if you are caught up in this problem now then you might not be able to do anything whilst control is being switched to the TCT. It also seems that people are being told (rightly or wrongly we don't know) different things regarding the new requirements. I am referring in particular to the addition recently of a couple of comments stating that education credits will possibly not be needed and that exams/long courses don't have to be taken only the Thai culture course.

Without wanting to appear rude don't claim to understand the situation when not even the TCT themselves do.

[PeaceBlondie]

garro, I am also surprised at the poll results, which run counter to the comments in this thread. I suspect many non teacher members of ThaiVisa have voted, with the overly simple theory that these new requirements will make farang and filipoino and Indian teachers more qualified in the Thai educational system. As alaina pointed out well, above, the system will not implement these improvements in a sensible, successful, or sensible manner. It is fine to wear rose-colored glasses if the sun is shining. The sun is only shining on about 5% of Thailand. Okay, maybe 18%.

[aussiestyle1983]

The saying "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" comes to mind, and seems spot on, when thinking about what is being done and how Thailand is going about trying to better their education system.

[Petch01]

what the authorities have said they are going to do and what they are going to do are not necessarily the same thing.

Without wanting to appear rude don't claim to understand the situation when not even the TCT themselves do.

You're not rude and I'm not claiming. Time will learn how things will be implemented. Until then it will always be opinions, speculations and interpretations on forums like these.

Petch01

[alaina]

I don't think this will change the numbers of teachers. You will just see less foreign teachers on record and there will be more illegal teachers off record. Whatever Thailand does, it will never be able to fill the number of legal foreign teachers that it wants, but more importantly, native speaking foreign teachers; the ones that are required by most places that most places can't seem to get.

I just think more people will chose to go down the illegal path, so the same person who might once have been legal, might choose to go illegal. This will have no effect on the students becuase if teacher X was once legal and is now illegal because of this silly new law, well, teacher X is still in fact teacher X, so the students havent really lost their teacher. The only way the students will lose is when teacher X doesn't become illegal and leaves or teacher X gets caught and gets raped in Thai prison.

Either way, nothing will change. There will still be the same number of teachers, you might just find more illegals now. But there is no way the ESL teaching profession in Thailand will gain more credibility or respectability, because lets face it, if a country can not get the number of foreign qualified teachers that it needs, even because it wants the best, there is something wrong with the system in that country and it does not deserve any respect. Thailand needs a major paradigm shift in order to gain any credibility in anything it does, and that will never happen until saving face and other of the poorer aspects of Thai culture are dropped. The ESL profession in Thailand will always be a joke. Hahaha!

This is a good prediction based on what the MOE's history has been. It was less than two years ago that the MOE decided to finally check a few of the degrees that were submitted to find a few people working on fake degrees. Before that, it was an accepted fact that a good percentage of teachers had Khao San degrees and it seemed nearly accepted by the government that people were buying degrees. Now, fake degrees are still as easy to find as pirated DVD's and I've yet to see a mass exodus of teachers without degrees. They are working somewhere, aren't they?

Now it seems that the MOE wants people with BEd's, a little more than a year later. All of the people I work with have BEd's and many are in Thailand because it has been an easy and comfortable place. It seems a lot less comfortable now that 30% of us have no idea how we will get our next visa. Many people I work with also like Thailand but travel by changing jobs and do so whenever the mood strikes. Feeling less comfortable in Thailand may change more than a few minds of people I know and I'm with them. Who knows what nonsense the MOE will come up with next that makes things more difficult for professional teachers that could work in international schools worldwide. Maybe an MEd will become the next requirement, or the ability to eat som tam with ten peppers, there is no logic or sense to it really.

While I do think that my education was worthwhile, I also think that there is a great need for people with degrees in other subjects to teach in Thailand. Some people desperately want to stay in Thailand and are good teachers without BEd's. Many BEd's with experience do not like the way that schools in Thailand are run and leave. Unless all the women with the big hair are willing to change the way that they run their schools and treat their teachers (like that will eeevvveeerr happen ) Thai schools need all the desperate teachers they can get. And those teachers will now end up working illegally while they look over their shoulders and Thailand benefits from their efforts.

[haltes]

Good to see you around again, Haltes!

Thanks "S". It's nice to have some free time again!

I have not had much time or inclination to post recently but occasionally I am aroused by the constant stupidity and pointlessness that encapsulates the system that we participate in. I wish I could be optimistic but I remain as always a cynic!

[keekwai]

I know that only a few people have voted thus far, but the result is interesting none the less.

From reading about this topic here and on a different forum the reaction to the news was very negative.

This poll so far shows that over 70% here believe that it will be of benefit.

Interesting.

That just means that 70% of the people who voted are idiots.

[aussiestyle1983]

I know that only a few people have voted thus far, but the result is interesting none the less.

From reading about this topic here and on a different forum the reaction to the news was very negative.

This poll so far shows that over 70% here believe that it will be of benefit.

Interesting.

That just means that 70% of the people who voted are idiots.

I couldn't agree more but I wouldn't go as far as calling them idiots, maybe they are just thick headed or blind?

[Xangsamhua]

One of our ex-teachers has done this course and a current teacher is doing it now.

It's run by Bansomdejchaophraya Rajaphat University (BSRU) in Thonburi. It cost about 8000 baht and takes a few months (I'm not completely clear as I'm relying on information from my colleague who's a little unclear herself). It's largely self-managed apart from an introductory day at the university. You just get the notes and send in the assignments. Your practical teaching assessment is done by video I think. It satisfies requirements for the teacher licence (assuming one has the requirements to enter the course - a degree in something, I suppose), but presumably would have no weight outside the local context.

The coordinator is Dr Areewan Iamsa-ard. She is a real person (see http://www.academiae.biz/EEProgram/MyPhilosophy.asp) but she only responds to email when there's enough candidates to statrt a new course. Her email address is [email protected]

I hope this is helpful. I've spoken to her on the phone, but she prefers email, even if she doesn't answer it right away.

The information above is correct as far as I can tell, but it seems a very loose arrangement. For example, my colleague doesn't remember filling out an application form. I would think that interested persons should send Dr Areewan their basic personal details and qualifications and that should do for a start.

[PeaceBlondie]

Is this a course for the pedagogy, philosophy of teaching, etc., for those without a B.Ed. or equivalent?

And how will farang teachers know if such a course is going to be recognized by the TCT?

[Xangsamhua]

Is this a course for the pedagogy, philosophy of teaching, etc., for those without a B.Ed. or equivalent?

And how will farang teachers know if such a course is going to be recognized by the TCT?

Yes, that's what it appears to be.

I'm sorry to be so vague, PB. I've found it hard to get direct information myself, though I did speak with Dr Areewan on the phone. She's not all that comfortable in English, I believe - at least not on the phone - but we agreed to talk when she came to school today to observe a lesson. That visit was cancelled and a video will be substituted for the observation.

The teacher from our school (who has since gone to an international school) did it last year or the year before and got the licence as a result. The teacher currently doing it is confident of the same. She heard about it from the previous teacher. I know that Bansomdej has had online courses for this purpose before, but the current programme and procedures seem rather looser than I expected.

I can only suggest that if people are interested they email Dr Areewan and maybe that'll get the numbers up for a course quicker; hence she'll respond quicker and something will happen. At least nothing is lost by doing so.

[alaina]

Last I had heard, the Ministry of Education was meeting today to decide the standards for a teacher's license. The woman that communicates with the Ministry at my school is away this week, of course, so I won't get the official word or creative interpretative dance from my school about what happened this week. This much I can assume safely:

9:00 Officials milling about in black (many in silk with big hair as well) all make sure that they have their coffee, tea and milo along with a sugary pastry to start the meeting.

9:20 Officials opening the meeting talks into microphone, microphone is not working

9:45 Microphone fixed, now refills of beverages and pastries are needed

10:10 Person opening the meeting makes obligatory thanks and talks about how wonderfully the Ministry has been operating, high standards, blah, blah

11:00 Meeting is underway and several officials monopolize the meeting in order to try and sound intelligent

11:30 Meeting is just really underway and now it's time for lunch

12:30 Officials are due back from lunch

1:00 Officials return from lunch

1:20 Milo, coffee and tea are refilled and now everything is ready

1:25 Official speaks into microphone to re-open the meeting... something has been unplugged and the microphone is not working again

1:40 Thankfully, the sound was quicker to be fixed this time, meeting starts

1:50 ???

2:30 Coffee break

3:00 ???

4:00 Officials adjourn because nobody wants to be stuck in 5pm traffic.

Now, can anybody fill in 1:50- 2:30 and 3:00- 4:00? Even rumors with disclaimers would be appreciated.

[Ijustwannateach]

That's one of the most strictly accurate pictures of government operation I've seen in a loooong time!!!!

[DaiHard]

Compared with what the morons in the UK government are doing the Thai system is an object lesson in crystal clarity. The new UK system announced at the end of 2007 goes something like this:

In order to be able to teach you must have QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) from the beginning of this month and in order to get that you need to have a degree in your specialist subject plus a minimum of PGCE. Ok so far so good, been there, done that. However I have always taught post 16 (adults) so I can't get QTS status however I could get QTLS status (LS stands for learning and skills) which I would HAVE to have if I wanted to work in a tertiary college. Fine, says I, how do I get that considering its mandatory from the 1st of February 2008. Dunno says they the specifications haven't been released yet but you should join the afs (which turned out to be a private company that gets loadsa cash from the government for getting teachers to join it and.....?).

So I joined. Result...I was told that I would need to create academic papers 4 times a year (<deleted>?) and go on loads of continuing professional development courses on diversity and health and safety and then possibly, maybe I could be qualified enough to apply for a training course after which I might be considered for AQTLS status (associate QTLS) which means I can't actually teach on my own in the classroom even though I've being teaching at University and Tertiary level for umpteen years. Then sometime down the road some jobsworth with a clipboard might consider me good enough to upgrade me to QTLS status (if they ever get round to releasing the details as to how its done). Btw to make an already murky system even denser teachers with QTS can't teach year 12 students without QTLS and, of course, you can't have both QTS and QTLS. With me so far?

The idea, so we were told, is to upgrade the quality of teachers in the UK. Which I have no problem with. What I do have a BIG problem with is that it applies to people teaching practical skills like plumbing or carpentry who wouldn't know how to start writing an academic paper and will just quit (enough quit after Clark brought in those TDLB awards a few years ago, which were, of course, to raise the quality of teachers yada yada). The other problem is that the average teacher lasts less than a year in the profession in the UK after qualifying (If you think little Somchai is a problem try Feral Phil and his gang of knife wielding thugs) so the UK education system will lose even more teachers and there is already a chronic shortage. The interesting thing is that the rules DON'T apply to foreign teachers working there because that would be racist!

And once you've done all this you are now qualified to earn the princely sum of £18,000 a year which may, if you are lucky, be enough to get you a seedy bedsit in a rough part of London.

The problem as I see it is that all government types (and this applies everywhere) haven't really got a clue about the realities at the chalkface. The kingdom always look at peace with itself from the ivory tower.

I'd love to see more qualified (and quality) teachers - my (University) students come to me with almost no English skills and that's after umpteen years of EP or International school English teaching - but I recognise there is, and always will be, a shortage. Personally I think the solution is for more English language TRAINERS, people with little or no academic skills (and with only a Police check by way of paperwork) but who could just talk to the kids in English but not teach them - the qualified teachers do that. Its conversations in English that these kids are lacking not teachers with a plethora of paperwork.

[Thaiboxer]

Wow! Sounds like the UK is a tough place to teach in terms of required qualifications and pay. All those requirements for 18K pounds sterling?! That's less than $36,000 US. As for the kids in English schools, PLENTY of people I know from the UK have told me horror stories about them. Like the US, the kids have all the power and can walk all over you like a doormat.

[mbkudu]

Compared with what the morons in the UK government are doing the Thai system is an object lesson in crystal clarity.

Your case here is enlightening. Things here in Thailand are not nearly that bad.

[Loaded]

I don't know the result of any meeting but I do know that Rajabaht Uni Chiang Mai has suspended running these Teacher Proficiency courses/exams. At least that's what I'm told this announcement says:

http://www.edu.cmru.ac.th/?name=news&f...dnews&id=16

What does this mean? I don't know but can guess.

[stevemiddie]

Wow! Sounds like the UK is a tough place to teach in terms of required qualifications and pay. All those requirements for 18K pounds sterling?! That's less than $36,000 US. As for the kids in English schools, PLENTY of people I know from the UK have told me horror stories about them. Like the US, the kids have all the power and can walk all over you like a doormat.

Its a little higher than that. Basic salary as of 2007 is 21,102 UK pounds ( In London ) at M1 pay grade. Rising to 37,164 at pay grade U3. ( In London )

Still crap though .

And the post about feral Phil and his gang is quite accurate.