Teacher Licensing, Culture Testing, TCT

[mopenyang]

Indeed, big breaking news if it isn't just one frustrated bureaucrat in one office. And AUA is hardly a newcomer to Thailand (how long have they run TEFL or TESOL courses?).

The actions allegedly taken by AUA would pretty much discount the "one frustrated bureaucrat in one office" theory.

Again, I am very curious where all this is taking place.

Edited August 12, 2007 by mopenyang

[pauleddy]

Sounds odd. What about CELTAs from IH and TandT?? Any other of the main players??

At last, my doubts about some of the cowboy CELTAs here may be confirmed!

PEd

[PeaceBlondie]

foolforlove, I just reviewed all 35 of your posts on ThaiVisa, after someone elsewhere commented that you had not posted much on the Teaching forum here. We don't know you. You once mentioned a school that might hire you, but I guess you've been with an agency lately. As the other person commented, you have told us what your agency told you, that the person at the ministry told your agent. That is distant enough to be hearsay and rumor at this point.

In fact, it's extremely difficult to believe. I suggest that you verify your sources. Meanwhile, countless of us have gotten work permits with TEFL 120 hour certificates earned in Thailand, from ten or more providers.

///Added later: our forum sponsor, SEE, says it is certified by the MoE. Text&Talk claims it is the ONLY course certified by the MoE. International House with its highly rated CELTA doesn't even bother to mention it. I was sure that CMU's course claims its connections through the university makes it approved by the MoE. And those were just the ones I looked at. I'm sure more than two courses claim MoE certification, and 4 or 5 may claim they're the only one!

[foolforlove]

PB

maybe I wasnt clear....

the MoE did not accept my tefl certificate because it was issued in Thailand.

i went back to aua bkk - where i took the course- with this story.

the person who heads teacher training at aua bkk told me i was not the first with this problem.

and that to his knowledge only two courses inside Thailand are being recognized now by MoE.

TandT is one of the two. I dont remember the other one.

so... its not hearsay when its told to me directly by the person at aua....

please dont flame me further. im now sorry i put my 2 cents in on this topic.

[mopenyang]

Which MoE office did not accept your "tefl certificate because it was issued in Thailand?"

You indicated you "went back to aua bkk," so can we assume the MoE office is located outside of Bangkok?

[PeaceBlondie]

foolforlove, thanks for clarifying some points that I must have missed. I'm sorry to have doubted a story that I understood as third-hand. Now I understand that your agency claimed that the MoE claimed that they were rejecting your Thai AUA TEFL cert because the Thai AUA TEFL certs are not recognized by the MoE. And, that a representative/employee of AUA in Bangkok is aware of this problem.

So, it appears to be a problem isolated only to Thai AUA TEFL certs which have the audacity to admit that the course was conducted in Thailand. It is not a rejection of other Thai providers' certifications. And the AUA rep thinks that Text and Talk is one of the (two, supposedly) approved providers, when T&T's own website claims to be the only one. Also, there may in fact be 8 or 11 approved providers if we include separate locations. Thank you.

Would any posters with MoE licenses or MoLabour work permits care to tell us their TEFL provider alma mater, whose certificate sailed through the applicable ministries? Whilst we're at it, could we debate on whether every MoE and MoL officer even requires any TEFL certificate? In other words, can you sometimes get a TL or a WP even if you never took a TEFL course? Did I take my course in vain? No, because it made me a better teacher.....

[mopenyang]

I don't understand the attitude, PB.

A member comes here and relates a personal account of what he has experienced.

You proceed to review all his posts and question his credibility and apparently only because what he related goes against what you personally believe how things should be viewed.

Very strange way to run a discussion board, IMHO.

Edited August 13, 2007 by PeaceBlondie
corrected font size from shouting. PB

[Kirsty]

well, I'm almost afraid to comment as I'm new and you don't know me either..but am encouraged by Mopenyang's last post so here goes!

I have a valid degree, a 120 hour Text & Talk TEFL (Pattaya) and 1 years teaching experience in a private bi-lingual school, all with valid teacher's licence and work permit. I was offered a job in an International School In Bangkok and went with them to the MoE last week where I was told that I don't have enough experience for a Teachers Licence, which is wierd because I obviously have 1 year more experience than when I was last issued one (Chonburi).

The school, who have been very helpful are going back again this week, with my original transcript, a letter from may last school stating the years experience and evidence that I am currently doing a Masters in Early Childhood (no idea if this last bit will help but assumed its worth a go!)

[mindweave]

A few comments--

I am a newbie on this forum, who just received the non-Immigrant B last week and am about to navigate through the work permit and Thai teaching certificate process, so I have no experience with the TIT authorities, as such. You guys are making me wonder if it will be the breeze I anticipated!

I did want to mention that WorldWide TEFL academy in Pattaya claims on the first page of their web site that they are licensed by the Thai DOE and even state their license number. I assume many other Thai-based TEFL/ TESOL programs are credible and licensed, as well, not only two. From my understanding, which includes a lot of international travel in the past, the CELTA is the best regarded and universally accepted ESL certificate, only short of a Masters Degree in ESL in terms of gaining credibility and respect around the world. Alas, I do not have the time (four weeks) to take off from my job at a Thai International school, nor the money, to get CELTA training.

Although I am a certified teacher in the US with a BA and MA in education, and decades of experience teaching English native-speakers, I do see the necessity for expanding my personal classroom skills to deal with my native-Thai speaking students new to an English immersion environment. My question is this: Should I wait until I have that TEFL (planning to take a course at the end of September) to apply for my Thai teaching license, or do it right away now, since I've now got that 3 month non-immigrant B? What is the time frame on allthis? How long will the beauracratic red tape take?

Also, what comes first- teacher license or work permit, and does it matter?

[stevemiddie]

Hi.

The teachers license comes first. Followed by the WP. This is then followed by the extended visa.

As for the TEFL? I,m not sure what you would gain by that. I graduated with honours in Primary Education and once my prospective employers have seen that i have not even been asked for a copy of my TEFL.

The time frame on all of this depends to a large extent on the school or institution. How influential are they? Good school..........bad school?

How efficient is the admin staff? I previously worked at an influential school in Bangkok and all of my papers and visa,s were done within 4 weeks.

I moved to Pattaya and had to repeat the whole process again. This time the whole thing took nearly 10 weeks.

Its not an influential school but its 5 minutes from my home so that makes it good for me.

Edited August 13, 2007 by stevemiddie

[mopenyang]

A few comments--

I am a newbie on this forum, who just received the non-Immigrant B last week and am about to navigate through the work permit and Thai teaching certificate process, so I have no experience with the TIT authorities, as such. You guys are making me wonder if it will be the breeze I anticipated!

I did want to mention that WorldWide TEFL academy in Pattaya claims on the first page of their web site that they are licensed by the Thai DOE and even state their license number. I assume many other Thai-based TEFL/ TESOL programs are credible and licensed, as well, not only two. From my understanding, which includes a lot of international travel in the past, the CELTA is the best regarded and universally accepted ESL certificate, only short of a Masters Degree in ESL in terms of gaining credibility and respect around the world. Alas, I do not have the time (four weeks) to take off from my job at a Thai International school, nor the money, to get CELTA training.

Although I am a certified teacher in the US with a BA and MA in education, and decades of experience teaching English native-speakers, I do see the necessity for expanding my personal classroom skills to deal with my native-Thai speaking students new to an English immersion environment. My question is this: Should I wait until I have that TEFL (planning to take a course at the end of September) to apply for my Thai teaching license, or do it right away now, since I've now got that 3 month non-immigrant B? What is the time frame on allthis? How long will the beauracratic red tape take?

Also, what comes first- teacher license or work permit, and does it matter?

With an MA in Education and your teacher's license from the U.S., you will have no problem finding a decent teaching position in Thailand. If you have the time, money, motivation and energy to do a tefl type course later on, you can always find a part-time one that may better fit your schedule at that point. In your case and with your educational background and teaching experience, there is nothing to be gained by waiting if you already have a sponsor for your TL and WP. It is quite possible, if not probable, that a tefl type course will be very redundant in your particular case.

How long will all that take? Depends on your prospective employer and how well thought of, motivated and versed they are in getting it done. It once took me six months. In recent years, it has taken me five days. Don't forget to include a very good looking copy of your U.S. teaching license in your packet of materials to be submitted.

Good luck and don't settle too quickly or too cheaply for a particular job given your professional background.

Edited August 13, 2007 by mopenyang

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't understand the attitude, PB.

A member comes here and relates a personal account of what he has experienced.

You proceed to review all his posts and question his credibility and apparently only because what he related goes against what you personally believe how things should be viewed.

Very strange way to run a discussion board, IMHO.

No need to shout. I have already apologized publicly. Part of my job is to review prior posts when people make amazing, previously unheard claims. You found his reports pretty amazing, yourself.

Folks, you are welcome to post your experiences, even unusual ones. Thank you.

[foolforlove]

everything i described has taken place entirely in bkk. the aua course. the MoE. all of it.

i said "went back to aua bkk" just to clarify for other posters who had been asking which aua location was involved.

well, as already noted earlier, i am not letting my original univ diploma out of my hands. so this thursday morning, i am going with director of the agency to the MoE in person with all documents (this will be 3rd attempt) to apply for TL.

the other poster from pattaya who had been teaching for a year and was now told s/he did not have enough experience... its got me worried this will be the result for me when i go thursday. cross fingers and hope not.

Which MoE office did not accept your "tefl certificate because it was issued in Thailand?"

You indicated you "went back to aua bkk," so can we assume the MoE office is located outside of Bangkok?

[mopenyang]

well, I'm almost afraid to comment as I'm new and you don't know me either..but am encouraged by Mopenyang's last post so here goes!

I have a valid degree, a 120 hour Text & Talk TEFL (Pattaya) and 1 years teaching experience in a private bi-lingual school, all with valid teacher's licence and work permit. I was offered a job in an International School In Bangkok and went with them to the MoE last week where I was told that I don't have enough experience for a Teachers Licence, which is wierd because I obviously have 1 year more experience than when I was last issued one (Chonburi).

The school, who have been very helpful are going back again this week, with my original transcript, a letter from may last school stating the years experience and evidence that I am currently doing a Masters in Early Childhood (no idea if this last bit will help but assumed its worth a go!)

From what you and foolforlove have reported, it is certainly beginning to look like the Bangkok MoE is becoming more stringent when it comes to issuance of the TL.

Previously, it would have been unusual for someone with both a valid degree and 120 hour TEFL not to qualify for a TL. The MoE has previously published experience requirements for the TL and it appears this is what they are referencing in your case.

Different provinces operate differently, so I'm afraid the fact that Chonburi MoE previously issued you a TL is not going to carry that much weight in Bangkok.

How much your school is willing to push for you coupled with how prestigious it is will probably end up deciding what happens with the TL.

Good luck.

[Ijustwannateach]

Mindweave and other newbies: I recommend that you read all the pinned threads at the top of the teaching forum list, plus all of the linked threads in the "Recommended Threads and Guidelines" thread (one of those threads is a discussion of the Red Tape that used to be standard for teaching; although at the moment the process is no longer as "clear" as it used to be). I also recommend that you review notable threads in the first 5 pages or so to get a feel for recent news and happenings. At that point your questions can become more specific and useful.

Yes, it's a lot of reading- but anyone fooli...er, brave enough to start teaching in Thailand at the moment really needs to have their ducks all in a row.

Further comments about how the forum is run will earn warnings.

"Steven"

[Scott]

There seems to be a lot going on with regard to "qualifications". Like a lot of people, I've run into glitches and U-turns on a number of issues. All three departments--Immigration, MOE and Ministry of Labor seem to be throwing spanners in the works at times. A lot of these are small things that can be overcome. Others have been more serious and we've had to ask Immigration, for example, for an extention in order to comply. Immigration recently asked for a translation of a document by the person's embassy, which had to be stamped and validated. Not possible to do immediately. They finally said "OK", but we want it for next year!

[foolforlove]

my third visit to MoE (bkk location) and still not successful.

i brought my original uni diploma and orignal transcripts (plus loads of other documents e.g. police clearande, tesol certificate).

this time, they said they want a letter from the univ saying that i really graduated. verifying my degree etc.

oddly, they said an email from the uni would be acceptable.

in any event, my uni does not do this type of verification letter themselves. (i just discovered). they have a 3rd party service which does the verification real time online, and generates an Adobe pdf file that says "yup he really did graduate, with this degree, on this date". so hopefully this "degree verification certificate" will be acceptable.

probably will go back on tue or wed.

[Loaded]

my third visit to MoE (bkk location) and still not successful.

i brought my original uni diploma and orignal transcripts (plus loads of other documents e.g. police clearande, tesol certificate).

this time, they said they want a letter from the univ saying that i really graduated. verifying my degree etc.

oddly, they said an email from the uni would be acceptable.

in any event, my uni does not do this type of verification letter themselves. (i just discovered). they have a 3rd party service which does the verification real time online, and generates an Adobe pdf file that says "yup he really did graduate, with this degree, on this date". so hopefully this "degree verification certificate" will be acceptable.

probably will go back on tue or wed.

Maybe there's something about your original degree certificate that they find suspicious because it isn't normal for the MoE to make these requests. Possibly your uni is one that is used by the fakers or dates don't match your expected graduation age or something else.

[Scott]

Thus far, we have had to provide a letter (or email) for all new teachers, showing that their degree is genuine. It generally works like this: I send an email (or a letter) to the University, this is submitted with copies of all the other documentation. They then issue the letter requesting the non-immigrant B visa. They need the originals later and the verification.

As is often the case, there are a number of breakdowns in the system. For example, two verification letters were sent, but the paperwork was processed without an answer.

Best of luck to you.

[mopenyang]

my third visit to MoE (bkk location) and still not successful.

i brought my original uni diploma and orignal transcripts (plus loads of other documents e.g. police clearande, tesol certificate).

this time, they said they want a letter from the univ saying that i really graduated. verifying my degree etc.

oddly, they said an email from the uni would be acceptable.

in any event, my uni does not do this type of verification letter themselves. (i just discovered). they have a 3rd party service which does the verification real time online, and generates an Adobe pdf file that says "yup he really did graduate, with this degree, on this date". so hopefully this "degree verification certificate" will be acceptable.

probably will go back on tue or wed.

Maybe there's something about your original degree certificate that they find suspicious because it isn't normal for the MoE to make these requests. Possibly your uni is one that is used by the fakers or dates don't match your expected graduation age or something else.

It hasn't been "normal" for MoE to bounce back applications for TLs based on lack of teaching experience either, but given what Kirsty has written on this thread; it looks like "normal" may be taking on a new feel at Bangkok MoE.

[foolforlove]

according to MoE, this is the new law and that this degree verification letter is required of everyone now.

they said there were completely satisfied with the diploma etc. in fact, they dont want to see them again on my next(fourth) visit. all they want me to bring is this degree verification letter only.

my third visit to MoE (bkk location) and still not successful.

i brought my original uni diploma and orignal transcripts (plus loads of other documents e.g. police clearande, tesol certificate).

this time, they said they want a letter from the univ saying that i really graduated. verifying my degree etc.

oddly, they said an email from the uni would be acceptable.

in any event, my uni does not do this type of verification letter themselves. (i just discovered). they have a 3rd party service which does the verification real time online, and generates an Adobe pdf file that says "yup he really did graduate, with this degree, on this date". so hopefully this "degree verification certificate" will be acceptable.

probably will go back on tue or wed.

Maybe there's something about your original degree certificate that they find suspicious because it isn't normal for the MoE to make these requests. Possibly your uni is one that is used by the fakers or dates don't match your expected graduation age or something else.

[ajarnsomeday]

in any event, my uni does not do this type of verification letter themselves.

Just to be clear foolforlove, your paperwork problem is with the university back home where you received your degree, not a Thai university vouching for your credentials. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

Good luck & keep us updated

[mopenyang]

I don't know how this fits in...but here is my current situation.

I got hired through an agency about 2 months ago to teach in a public high school in BKK.

I already was holding a non-b visa which I had for a long time just to make my stay here easier.

I have a Bachelors Degree and a 120 hour TESOL certification.

The agency has had no end of trouble applying for my teacher's license at the education ministry (havent even started the WP process yet).

First, the education ministry didnt like my TESOL certificate (because I had done the TESOL course inside Thailand). So the TESOL school had to go back to the accrediting institution (in USA) and ask them to issue a new certificate with their name only (removing all references to the course taking place inside Thailand).

The second visit to the education ministry yielded a laundry list of new problems. They doubt my bachelors degree. Demand to see the original diploma. My transcripts also. They want copies of my entire passport (all pages). And they didnt like the photo I submitted (I had my photo taken in one of the King's knit polo shirts) and so I have to get new photo wearing a long sleeve dress shirt and tie.

So far the agency has been going to the ministry themselves. But now that they want to see the original diploma, I insist on going with them (I'm not letting that document out of my sight!).

I asked the agency why this is so hard. They have many teachers and I think many less qualified than me. They are as baffled about this as I am.

"....to teach in a public high school in BKK."

I'm curious about this.

By "public high school," I assume you mean government school.

If this is the case, why do you need a Teacher's License? Is it because you are employed through an agency?

Edited August 20, 2007 by mopenyang

[Scott]

Sorry for all your problems. One thing that might be wise to do is to submit only the required documentation. I learned sometime ago not to submit more than is necessary. Had a lovely lady who received her Bachelor's and had then gone to a foreign country for her MA. First, they wanted the Master's translated. Then they wanted it translated by the Embassy. Then they wanted it verified.

To work at our school all you need is a Bachelor's degree. Now, that's the only one I send to them. I never include the TEFL or anything that isn't required. Too many hassles.

There also are a few people at the MOE who are very pedantic. Sometimes I think it all depends on whose desk the paperwork lands.

Best of luck to you.

[BFD]

For my school (international), I needed to have a BA (BEd preferred) as well as a valid teaching certification from my home country.

The funny part is that where I'm from (Alberta, Canada), they'll basically just give you a certificate as soon as you finish your BEd. I didn't need certification at my last school here in Thailand, so I didn't bother. When I came to the new school, they required it, so I contacted the certification branch back in Alberta. They told me that, since I had been teaching for a year already, they would need proof that I hadn't "stolen any money, harassed any staff, or maimed any children" (exact quote!). In short, I needed a letter from my principal. To be cheeky, I had my principal include exactly those things in the letter (ie. "BFD has never maimed a child while in my employ").

I suppose it wasn't a big deal in the end, but it just felt weird being somewhat penalized for having taught for a year.

So, my current school required:

BEd

Certification

Crim check

Non-Imm B

Passed physical (for health care)

Sunny disposition

BFD!

[page449]

For my school (international), I needed to have a BA (BEd preferred) as well as a valid teaching certification from my home country.

The funny part is that where I'm from (Alberta, Canada), they'll basically just give you a certificate as soon as you finish your BEd. I didn't need certification at my last school here in Thailand, so I didn't bother. When I came to the new school, they required it, so I contacted the certification branch back in Alberta. They told me that, since I had been teaching for a year already, they would need proof that I hadn't "stolen any money, harassed any staff, or maimed any children" (exact quote!). In short, I needed a letter from my principal. To be cheeky, I had my principal include exactly those things in the letter (ie. "BFD has never maimed a child while in my employ").

I suppose it wasn't a big deal in the end, but it just felt weird being somewhat penalized for having taught for a year.

So, my current school required:

BEd

Certification

Crim check

Non-Imm B

Passed physical (for health care)

Sunny disposition

BFD!

BFD, did you get your criminal check from the Thai police, from the RCMP while you were in Canada

or did the RCMP send it to Thailand? Thanks

[BFD]

Got it done in Canada. Took about two days and $40.

BFD!

[page449]

Got it done in Canada. Took about two days and $40.

BFD!

Thankyou. You got it from the local RCMP in Alberta I presume

[NBT TV Phuket]

Special - BIS Phuket & Rangsit University’s Teacher Training Course in Thai Culture and Language

To see or download mini-video, go to http://www.thaisnews.com/news_detail.php?newsid=214537

The British International School of Phuket and Rangsit University have organized a 20 hour Teacher Training Course in Thai Culture and Language.

There are many foreign teachers in Thailand who are in schools, yet have not met the new standards of the Teachers’ Council. In order to help improve the qualifications of the foreign teachers in Thailand, the Rangsit University Faculty of Education is contributing to teaching effectiveness by providing a training program.

The University from Bangkok and the British International School of Phuket have therefore recognized the need in Phuket, and have organized a local ‘Thai Language and Culture 20 hour course.’ Attending so far are a total of 96 teachers who will receive a certificate by the Teachers Council Ministry of Education.

According to the Teachers and Educational Personnel Council Act 2003, the regulation states that all teachers and administrators must be licensed professionals, with those who apply for a teaching certificate having to pass a test to comply with the rules and regulations of the Teachers’ Council.

The course it designed for foreign teachers to comply with those requirements from the Thai Ministry of Education (or MoE), as the course aims to train foreign teachers in Thailand to better understand Thai society and to know and accept the professional code of conduct for teachers in Thai schools. The professional license can be earned two ways, by earning a Bachelor’s degree in Education and then receiving training in Thailand in these five basic topics: Thai language, manners, art and music, as well as professional ethics – all in the course, or by earning a Bachelor’s degree in another field and taking a test in the other areas provided by the Teacher’s Council in Thailand.

Teachers interested must complete a 20 hour course, with a curriculum structure of 14 hours covering Thai Society, Thai language and Culture, etiquette, arts and music that will educate foreign teachers about mannerisms and 6 hours of professional ethics. Teachers will attend lectures and discussions while also getting to practice in real situations, like witnessing traditional dances, with evaluation from real practices and tests.

Mrs. Songsri Wanasen – Former Director, Instructor of Rangsit University, gave us an overview of the 20 hour Teacher Training course:

The course is being held on the 21, 22, and 25 August, at the School Auditorium of the British International School of Phuket. This teacher training program is open to other teachers who have the desire to receive such a certificate and can also schedule for a training course in a customized time frame with a group of at least 15 people to begin a course and earn a certificate.

By the end of the course the trainees will hopefully understand the situation of Thai society in the past and present, understand the structure of the society, be able to understand some Thai language and basic characteristics and personalities of Thai people, mannerisms, politics, and government, sufficiency economy and social context. Teacher ethics will include learning about the Thai educational system, as well as ethics for oneself, career ethics and behavior in the teaching profession.

This 20 hour teacher training course is for those in teaching professions who would like to be able to teach here in Thailand. This is Genevieve reporting for the Andaman News.

Special for Andaman News TV11 (VHF dial) 8.30am + FM90.5 Radio Thailand 6pm, both broadcast from Phuket City to Phang Nga, Krabi & Phuket provinces, Mazz Radio FM108 at 7.30pm in Phuket & maybe later on Phuket Cable TV Channel 1, Wednesday 22 August 2007 & www.Thaisnews.com

[Ijustwannateach]

Oh, joy. I have to learn about Thai musical instruments and dance moves in situ so that I am somehow better qualified to teach science or math? I don't think so.

I would like to see some evidence of a government- not a university- confirmation that this mooted course actually does satisfy the unverified, barely written requirements we have been discussing in this subforum for a long time. It is my impression that the test itself has not even been written- or has anyone here taken it so far? You mention "real evaluations and tests." Can you verify that these now exist and are in your hands?

Can you (clearly) show us the following:

1. The list of requirements (in English) from the government

2. The confirmation (by a government source) that your course does cover the necessary requirements, or at least some sort of testimonial from someone who has actually seen the actual test and knows the actual material in your actual course.

"Steven"