Teacher Licensing, Culture Testing, TCT

[mopenyang]

At present, they can only afford a salary that attracts a large quantity teachers with various BA degrees from auto mechanics to underwater basket weaving.

Having taught in both Korea and Thailand for several years each, there is very little or no difference between the two nations when it comes to attracting teachers without education degrees. The more significant difference relates to the fact that Thailand attracts a far greater number of non-degreed teachers than does Korea because of the strict manner in which Korea enforces laws relating to a teaching visa.

[engrin]

52,000... What percentage of yearly salary is that?

The government should pay teachers to take the course. lol

[mbkudu]

A good 120 hour, one month TEFL or CELTA course costs the same. This one is three times the number of hours. It couldn't be all that bad I think.

[PeaceBlondie]

Uli, we've been quite cordial to your original post, whereas at the other forum when you presented the same point, you got verbally pummelled for not even knowing what a PGCE was, not knowing much detailed information about the status of education in Thailand, apparently not being a professional educator yourself; for the program being very unclear; and especially for your apparent contention (scare tactic) that the central government ministries would mandate such a course.

It reminds me of the famous old chestnut from 3 or 4 years ago, the 15 credit hours in education. Or 14.555 schemshter horas en la educaccion; it may as well have been in Urdu. A 'requirement' that never materialized, after all these years, because Thailand cannot afford to have rigorous standards for its poorly paid farang ajarns. The police check seems to be going down the tubes as we speak.

Let me be a bit presumptuous or presumptive: this course does not yet exist. No syllabus, no curriculum, no professors assigned. And whenever it might materialize, it need bear no resemblance to the announcements currently shown.

Never mind, Uli. It's a good idea in certain ways, in theory, but we suspect the Thai staff has made you a laughingstock by deciding to let the European do it. I'd back out of it if I were you, by saying you needed to check the camshaft of your BMW, or bake some weinerschnitzel.

[Ijustwannateach]

To make my point clear- I don't doubt that the course will be useful to many teachers, or that the trend is that teachers will need to be better trained and qualified- I don't even doubt that Ramkhamhaeng has a good thing going educationally.

I just simply don't accept on Ramkhamhaeng's word alone that this course will finally and absolutely qualify its graduates to pass the (as of now) unwritten, unverified, unstated, and unconfirmed requirements that we haven't heard about from the various Ministries. Sure, it looks good. But the only people who can guarantee that the course will satisfy the Ministries, are the Ministries. And they ain't talkin'- at least not clearly enough for me or anyone else I know to understand.

"Steven"

[mopenyang]

Many teachers qualified to pursue this course or a similar one genuinely interested in improving their professional qualifications will do so with little regard to whether or not it satisfies bureaucratic requirements in Thailand or elsewhere.

What is significant here is that the quality of professional teacher preparation programs is on the rise in Thailand coupled with more stringent requirements for admission to the programs, i.e., undergrad degree requirement.

Over time and not overnight, this will result in more professional teachers in schools and improve the quality of instruction and education of the students.

That these university programs are becoming more available to foreign teachers marks a sea change regarding who in the future will qualify as a professionally prepared teacher in Thailand and what and what will not qualify as a professional teacher preparation program here.

It is a very positive development and one that is long overdue.

[anthonyaus]

Many teachers qualified to pursue this course or a similar one genuinely interested in improving their professional qualifications will do so with little regard to whether or not it satisfies bureaucratic requirements in Thailand or elsewhere.

What is significant here is that the quality of professional teacher preparation programs is on the rise in Thailand coupled with more stringent requirements for admission to the programs, i.e., undergrad degree requirement.

Over time and not overnight, this will result in more professional teachers in schools and improve the quality of instruction and education of the students.

That these university programs are becoming more available to foreign teachers marks a sea change regarding who in the future will qualify as a professionally prepared teacher in Thailand and what and what will not qualify as a professional teacher preparation program here.

It is a very positive development and one that is long overdue.

Here Here and Amen

[Ijustwannateach]

Um, yes... I agree... and for those teachers, I recommend a *real* course such as those that many of the fully-internationally-accredited universities from English-speaking nations offer online, leading to an actual Master's in Education- if you can afford 52K, you can probably stretch a little further and pay 100K a year for 2 or 3 years. And then you have a full Master's degree which is not only definitely accepted abroad, but also granted abroad. Going at it halfway with the Ramkhamhaeng semi-qualification (which we don't even know for sure is even accepted by the Thai government) seems a waste of money, even if it is a smaller chunk of money.

But mileage may vary... up to you.

[anthonyaus]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

[PeaceBlondie]

I agree with mopenyang that this recent beginning of a tentative start by a huge open university like Ramkamhaeng is a good sign that the Thai uni system is actually tailoring some of its post-graduate programs to the farang EFL community. The long summer break is now ending - who knows of one EFL teacher (or math or science teacher) who just completed some short course for teaching young learners, or EFL, to improve theirself?

The mere fact that a trial balloon about a major Thai uni offering a post-graduate program, raises so much interest here and on other websites, shows there is a genuine interest in the EFL community for self-improvement, professional development.

That's my optimistic response. My pessimistic response is that we don't know if Ramkamhaeng's program will even start, who will teach it, or how good it will be.

[mopenyang]

I agree with mopenyang that this recent beginning of a tentative start by a huge open university like Ramkamhaeng is a good sign that the Thai uni system is actually tailoring some of its post-graduate programs to the farang EFL community. The long summer break is now ending - who knows of one EFL teacher (or math or science teacher) who just completed some short course for teaching young learners, or EFL, to improve theirself?

The mere fact that a trial balloon about a major Thai uni offering a post-graduate program, raises so much interest here and on other websites, shows there is a genuine interest in the EFL community for self-improvement, professional development.

That's my optimistic response. My pessimistic response is that we don't know if Ramkamhaeng's program will even start, who will teach it, or how good it will be.

Without focusing too much on the RU program alone, I have a feeling it will kick off given the information contained on the following url including the individual program brochure:

http://www.iis.ru.ac.th/English_Program/Te..._profession.htm

More important to me is the fact that these kinds of programs are actually being thought of and even being implemented. I don't want to take anything away from overseas universities offering graduate degrees in teaching and awards such as the PGCE, but I do believe that all too often Thai universities are demeaned unfairly. Indeed, there are very good international graduate programs here (not just in English or teaching) where the professors primarily come from major Western and Asian universities. Courses are only taught in English and IMHO the programs are well worth the time, effort and money. One could make the argument that getting a graduate degree from a major government Thai university will never hurt you in Thailand. Will an individual program necessarily satisfy all of the bureaucratic requirements? I'm not certain any one knows on any given day of the week, but surely such degrees being awarded under the auspices of the Thai government and from the same universities attended by Thai government officers will work to one's advantage in the long run.

As I have written previously, I am very happy to see this taking place and feel there will be an explosion of such programs in the years ahead. They will be attended not only by teachers presently in Thailand but by others thinking of teaching here and by individuals from other nations who will select Thailand to improve themselves and their professional standing through university and graduate school preparation for teaching.

The students are the ones who will ultimately benefit the most from this and I honestly don't see how anyone who calls himself or herself a teacher can object to such a positive development.

[Prakanong]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

From the site

"All credits earned in this program can be transferred to the M.Ed. Master in Education program. With a M.Ed. Master in Education, you are further eligible to study the Ph.D. in Educational Administration program at IIS."

[Ijustwannateach]

The students are the ones who will ultimately benefit the most from this and I honestly don't see how anyone who calls himself or herself a teacher can object to such a positive development.

So who's objecting, then?

[Ijustwannateach]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

A good point, Anthony, and if the answer is affirmative would make the course much more attractive as a starter- and keep the students coming back to round out the M.Ed. Uli, any thoughts?

"S"

[mopenyang]

The students are the ones who will ultimately benefit the most from this and I honestly don't see how anyone who calls himself or herself a teacher can object to such a positive development.

So who's objecting, then?

Hopefully, no one.

Then again, it's possible I am being overly optimistic.

[graesta]

is this the same Ramkhamhaeng that had a four day workshop two weeks ago.. and had thirty hopefuls but they ended up hiring only five. g

just asking

graesta

[Uli]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

The credits earned form the Graduate Diploma courses can be transferred to the M.Ed. program at IIS. The M.Ed. needs completion of 36 credits, meaning the diploma makes 2/3.

There is a transfer fee of 1,500 Baht per credit. The 24 credits of the diploma make about 52,000 Baht, the M.Ed. program makes (complete) 250,000 Baht. Even with the transfer fee, still a good bargain.

If you would prefer to get the diploma conducted in Mandarin, you are welcome as well. Just a few days ago I got the news that this diploma is offered in our Chinese program as well (certainly, the Faculty of Education offers it in Thai as well, for as little as 27,000 Baht).

Uli

[aussiestyle1983]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

The credits earned form the Graduate Diploma courses can be transferred to the M.Ed. program at IIS. The M.Ed. needs completion of 36 credits, meaning the diploma makes 2/3.

There is a transfer fee of 1,500 Baht per credit. The 24 credits of the diploma make about 52,000 Baht, the M.Ed. program makes (complete) 250,000 Baht. Even with the transfer fee, still a good bargain.

If you would prefer to get the diploma conducted in Mandarin, you are welcome as well. Just a few days ago I got the news that this diploma is offered in our Chinese program as well (certainly, the Faculty of Education offers it in Thai as well, for as little as 27,000 Baht).

Uli

I'd rather pay $8,000 AUD for a MEd from an Australian University, you can specialise in many areas, including TESOL, physical education, etc. Even if the AUD goes back up to 30 THB per $1 AUD, then the MEd from Australia would only cost about 240,000 THB. I'm sure a MEd from an Aiustralian Uni would go a lot further in the Education or the TEFL world than one from a Thai Uni. This MEd can be studdied externally through distance education mode and the Uni that does this is rated number 1 in Australia for teaching performance. I just think that price is a bit high to pay for a Thai degree that would carry very little weight in other countries. $8,000 AUD is the fee for Australian citizens, if you're not an Aussie you would pay about double making it praobly mot so worth it for you if you only want it to teach in LOS, but just compairing the degree from RK in not that cheap for what its worth.

[Scott]

I work, actually I am the English Language Director, for a school near Bangkok. We've now had several months of dealing with the new regulations. This is what I've encountered and I would appreciate the feedback of others about what, if anything his happening where they are. I am wondering how uniform these regulations are being applied.

All new teachers we hire must have a Bachelor's Degree. We were told not even to bother submitting any paperwork to the Ministry of Education unless they have a degree. They will not take TEFL/CELTA etc (although these are a plus if you have a degree).

I might add that all the existing teachers at are school are OK for continuing based on their previous qualifications, of which some don't have degrees. The change is only affecting NEW Teachers.

If the degree holder is from a non-English speaking country (as a first language), They must have a TOEFL or IESLs test. I can't remember the required scores off the top of my head. The MOE in Bangkok has said TOIEC is fine, but the province where our school is located has said no to TOIEC.

They must have police clearance. An exception seems to be if they have been working in Thailand already. They just waived this on a new teacher coming from another province.

Any new teachers that we hire, even if they have been employed in another school start the process from square one. They have to cancel their work permit, Non-immigrant B visa, leave the country and start from scratch. This seems to mean that already employed teachers who don't meet the minimum qualifications, can't leave the school.

How does it work elsewhere or is it about the same?

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, Scott, this is very valuable information.

[Petch01]

Any new teachers that we hire, even if they have been employed in another school start the process from square one. They have to cancel their work permit, Non-immigrant B visa, leave the country and start from scratch.

I can confirm this. I've worked for four years in my province. For academic year 2007 I want to work for another school in the same city. At the end of April I went to Immigration to extend my visa based on all the paperwork of my new employer. Immigration didn't extend my visa and advised me to go out of the country and apply for a new non-immigrant B unless I could show my new work permit. I asked them how I could manage that as my new contract starts in May. Immigration said "that's why you should apply for a new visa abroad".

I am lucky having friends at the Labour Office and succeeded to get my work permit in two days. Just in time within the 7 days extension period and even before my starting date at the new employer. But again Immigration didn't give me my year extension because my work permit was valid from 27 tot 29 April (same as the first extension period) and my new contract starts at the 1st of May. Immigration was so kind to give me a second 7-days extension and in that period everything was settled.

Also when I came in April the police clearance that I handed in wasn't needed. When I came back in May it was needed on authority of MOE they said.

My changing of jobs had a bad timing but it was just a matter of days. Overall I felt that regulations were changing. There were already signs of what the OP wrote in his post.

Petch01

Edited May 24, 2007 by Petch01

[Scott]

Thanks, this is what I am seeing so far--consistently inconsistent, but staying in the general framework of what the regulations are. I'm not hearing of people being able to really circumvert them much.

[drdolittle]

hi scott

VERY interesting and informative post........cheers

so where do i stand, not having a BA, but having an MA ....plus 10 years esl experience

your advice would be appreciated

thanks

[Scott]

I ran across a similar question from someone. Are you Australian by the way? The reason I ask is the other person was from Australia--or received his degree from Australia. I don't exactly understand how you can get a Master's without a Bachelor's, although I do know that some countries will give them concurrently.

I would presume that a Master's would certainly get you into teaching. If you have a 4 + year degree I don't think the MOE is going to question your qualifications. We have sent in Master's degrees (without sending in the Bachelor's degree) and they have been approved.

In short, I think your in, but remember this is Thailand!

Keep us posted on how things work out for you.

[Xangsamhua]

I ran across a similar question from someone. Are you Australian by the way? The reason I ask is the other person was from Australia--or received his degree from Australia. I don't exactly understand how you can get a Master's without a Bachelor's, although I do know that some countries will give them concurrently.

I would presume that a Master's would certainly get you into teaching. If you have a 4 + year degree I don't think the MOE is going to question your qualifications. We have sent in Master's degrees (without sending in the Bachelor's degree) and they have been approved.

In short, I think your in, but remember this is Thailand!

Keep us posted on how things work out for you.

I'm also curious about the MA without the BA. Is entry to the MA program possible on the basis of a Dip Teach or equivalent 3 year program from a former College of Advanced Education?

[Xangsamhua]

Can anyone give me up to date information and contact details for courses in Bangkok available to foreign teachers who are graduates or graduate-equivalent but lack teaching qualifications sufficient to get a work permit for a private bilingual school?

I'm thinking of people who may have e.g. a B.Sc., but no teaching quals. To teach in a private bilingual school within the BKK metropolitan jurisdiction you are expected to have at least partial teaching qualifications.

I know Suan Dusit was running courses at weekends for about 4 months resulting in a qualification acceptable to the MoE, but I'm not sure they still do. I also know that an online course was available, I think through Bansomdejchaophraya Rajapat Uni, but I last heard about it a year or two ago.

I'd be very grateful for any more current leads.

[Ijustwannateach]

You could check out this thread. Please note, however, that the claim it satisfied government requirements was made only by Ramkhamhaeng representatives, not someone from the government. Actually, the government has been admirably vague on what, if anything, would definitely, certainly satisfy it (presumably so that it can hedge its bets in case it misjudges supply and demand of foreign teachers at various levels of qualifications, a scenario that seems more and more likely).

"Steven"

[Xangsamhua]

You could check out this thread. Please note, however, that the claim it satisfied government requirements was made only by Ramkhamhaeng representatives, not someone from the government. Actually, the government has been admirably vague on what, if anything, would definitely, certainly satisfy it (presumably so that it can hedge its bets in case it misjudges supply and demand of foreign teachers at various levels of qualifications, a scenario that seems more and more likely).

"Steven"

Thank you Steven. I'll follow it up.

"XSH"

[Xangsamhua]

Uli can the RKH cert be run out to MAT or MEd?

Typically a cert like this is worth about 1/3 of a degree so if its legit, is there or least plans of it working into full qualification?

The credits earned form the Graduate Diploma courses can be transferred to the M.Ed. program at IIS. The M.Ed. needs completion of 36 credits, meaning the diploma makes 2/3.

There is a transfer fee of 1,500 Baht per credit. The 24 credits of the diploma make about 52,000 Baht, the M.Ed. program makes (complete) 250,000 Baht. Even with the transfer fee, still a good bargain.

If you would prefer to get the diploma conducted in Mandarin, you are welcome as well. Just a few days ago I got the news that this diploma is offered in our Chinese program as well (certainly, the Faculty of Education offers it in Thai as well, for as little as 27,000 Baht).

Uli

I'd rather pay $8,000 AUD for a MEd from an Australian University, you can specialise in many areas, including TESOL, physical education, etc. Even if the AUD goes back up to 30 THB per $1 AUD, then the MEd from Australia would only cost about 240,000 THB. I'm sure a MEd from an Aiustralian Uni would go a lot further in the Education or the TEFL world than one from a Thai Uni. This MEd can be studdied externally through distance education mode and the Uni that does this is rated number 1 in Australia for teaching performance. I just think that price is a bit high to pay for a Thai degree that would carry very little weight in other countries. $8,000 AUD is the fee for Australian citizens, if you're not an Aussie you would pay about double making it praobly mot so worth it for you if you only want it to teach in LOS, but just compairing the degree from RK in not that cheap for what its worth.

Not sure that you'd get a Masters now for AU$8000. USQ MEd units run out at AU$1350 now and there are 8 of them, totalling $10,800. USQ is one of the cheaper unis in Oz, though they have a very good reputation for online and distance mode.

[Scott]

We were initially told that new teachers had to have a teaching qualification. Since that time, however, we have submitted paperwork on a number of applicants with no teaching qualifications and no teaching experience (but with a Bachelor's Degree). They have been accepted without problem.