Evidence from UK's National Crime Agency 'critical' in sentencing Koh Tao killers to death

[jimmybkk]

You are talking nonsense, or do you expect anyone to believe that the Thai police pulled a number out of thin air to check with UK records and by an astronomical coincidence it just happened to be the one belonging to David Miller's phone?

Give it a go, think for a second were would they have gotten that IMEI number to begin with? I'd love to hear what convoluted explanation you can come up with that will by all possible means ignore the plain obvious truth that that phone used as evidence against the two murderers was David Miller's phone. (edited to add: no, actually I wouldn't love to hear that explanation)

Wei Phyo confessed to had that phone since the night of the murders in his testimony in court, and so did the friend he gave it to under false pretenses.

From court report:

"At about 8 am, the Second Defendant showed Mr Ren Ren the mobile phone he had retrieved and told him that he had found it at the restaurant. The Second Defendant tried to turn the mobile phone on but he could not because he did not have the passcode. Then, he left the mobile phone to be recharged at Mr Ren Ren’s house. After the murder news in Koh Tao spread, the Second Defendant told the truth to Mr Ren Ren that he found the mobile phone near where the incident had happened. Then, the Second Defendant slept over at the First Defendant’s house and returned to Mr Ren Ren’s house again to ask about the phone. Mr Ren Ren said he had smashed and destroyed the phone and thrown it away because he did not want to be implicated in the crime. The Second Defendant was disinterested and did not ask further."

He lied about were he got the phone, to his friend, for no other apparent reason that he thought the truth would implicate him in the murders that had not yet been in public knowledge at that time. This is from their testimony on the last days of the trial, this is their alibi, and you still defend them.

All this speculation, deliberate denial of facts, paranoid ramblings, misinformation, outright lies, absurd scenarios and knee jerk abuse against anyone who doesn't buy your increasingly irrational arguments for the innocence of those two Burmese men is nothing but a reflection of a need to save face.

None of you will ever find the truth, because the truth that you want is not out there to be found.

"He lied about were he got the phone, to his friend, for no other apparent reason that he thought the truth would implicate him in the murders that had not yet been in public knowledge at that time." You are speculating about the reason he lied to his friend, and your comment about the murders not yet being in public knowledge is nonsensical, irrelevant and means nothing. The bodies were apparently found by a Burmese cleaner and the Burmese lads were staying not far from where the bodies were found. Despite what you are insinuating, there is nothing unusual nor incriminating about locals having knowledge of the bodies being found before the news was publicly released.

"This is from their testimony on the last days of the trial, this is their alibi, and you still defend them." No, this is an outright lie, intended to mislead and misinform. You are being very devious with your use of English grammar - the text that you quoted in the previous paragraph may have been from their testimony on the last days of the trial but what immediately precedes your assertion that "This is from their testimony,,,", (i.e. that which the "This" refers to) is actually just you speculating and making unfounded assumptions as to the reason for the defendant lying to his friend in a transparent attempt to make your speculations and assumptions sound more incriminating by suggesting it was part of their testimony from the trial, which it wasn't.

"All this speculation, deliberate denial of facts, paranoid ramblings, misinformation, outright lies, absurd scenarios..." Indeed...

[Lancashireman]

Taken...ode to those who really know the truth...

I don't know who are and I don't know what you want...

If you're trying to talk common sense, in my opinion you haven't got any.

But what you do have is a particular set of skills, skills you have acquired over your long careers.

For skills needed in La-la land, yours might be adequate?

But your village wants its idiot back.

Hopefully your village will look for you, it will find you...

And it will welcome you back.

Night night...

[Khun Han]

"You are trying to be smart, it's not working."

.....Says the poster who never tires of using big words where a small one will do, and who loves to name-drop philosophers like an angst-ridden sixth former.

The use of Chris Ware to corroborate the identity of the iphone in conjunction with the evidence about the smashed iphone in the judgement is disingenuous at best. David's family had co-operated with the police. It reads like Chris had confirmed the identity of the smashed iphone, which he hadn't.

[Chetzee]

seeing as so many people here a hooked up on the phone issue , here's my view on things .

Opportunist thief picks up phone from the beach whilst looking for their own lost clothing

Off loads it to his mate for a consideration

later , on finding out about the murder , the phone is trashed and slung away .

The disposal of the phone is of no great consequence at the time , because the opportunist thief and friend know that they have no connection with the murder other than by chance picking up the phone , so who 's gonna come looking for it ?

It is only when the Thief starts to get put in the frame that the casual manner in which they disposed of the phone comes back to haunt them !!

In short , my point being that if you recognised that the phone was part of the murder investigation , and that you suspected that at some time you might be drawn into that investigation , then you sure as hell would not ditch the phone in your own back yard .

That being the case , the phone only serves to further reinforce in my mind the notion that the opportunist thief had nothing to do with this grim murder and rape other than picking it up off the beach .

[catsanddogs]

re; Greenchair's post #205. I'm sorry gal, there are just too many skewed assumptions and wrong data in your post to address.

Ok, I'll give it a go: boy finds m. phone in the sand. takes it home. Shows it to friend. Boy or his friend tells about the murder. One or both boys get spooked, so smash phone and toss it in the weeds. Even if that happened, it's a big fat SO WHAT? I'll say it again, the phone is a canard, a red herring. It signifies scant little. If anything, it shows how RTP/prosecution/judges want to believe some things Wei says, but don't believe anything else he says. It still doesn't incriminate him.

Re; CCTV: there is only one shot of the 3 boys - a 'still shot' on the motorbike 5.5 hrs before the crime. There are some shots of MM closer to the time of the crime, but MM was let go. Why was that? He was let go (my opinion) because he probably knows who the real killers are and because he knew enough to demand a lawyer at the inquisition. RTP didn't want any smart alec like that, so they patted him on the back and told him to get lost. Why didn't prosecution call MM to the stand, or Sean? Obvious: they might incriminate the real perps. Can't have that, can we?

Re; The DNA. If you don't agree the DNA trail is hearsay and in shambles, then you haven't been paying attention and/or have an agenda as thick as the RTP and multi-millionaire-richer police chiefs who oversee the investigation. Just the one fact that some of Hannah's clothes are missing - should be grounds for throwing the whole stinky frame-up out the window.

Did the defence call MM or Sean to the stand? If not, why not. Surely if these two have beans to spill the defence should have called them and not the prosecution as they are convinced of the B2s guilt..

That's easy to answer: Both Sean and MM were let go by police. We don't know if they were told to stay hidden and/or say nothing, but they both went to foreign countries, never to be heard of again. If that's not hushing evidence, I don't know what is. The defense couldn't have found them to bring back. Plus, the defense was trying so hard not to mention things which would implicate those who were original prime suspects ("We know who the murderers are and we will arrest them soon" Panya). The defense wanted to keep the focus on freeing the scapegoats. They knew if they mentioned other more likely suspects, that it would anger the RTP, the Headman, the Prosecution and the Court. They didn't want to anger and alienate everyone, so they kept their focus on defending the defendants. Plus, it's not the defense's responsibility to solve the case. That's the responsibility of the RTP, and they failed badly.

How do you mean Sean is hushed? At the last call he was living in Italy, he could sell his story to any tabloid tomorrow

Surely as the resident guitarist, 'concierge' and hanger on at the AC bar. he must know something?

And his photos of himself cowering behind the 7-11 counter whilst the glares of Mon and his brother look down on him, apparently threatening to hang him for the murders.

He's either a complete bullsh..tter or up to his eyeballs in the whole tragedy.

It was not Mon and his brother looking down as Sean McAnna on the photograph published. It was Mon and undercover cop 'BIG ears'. Not his brother as far as I'm aware.

[catsanddogs]

As someone who has spent quite some time in Myanmar and has experienced the local culture it is not beyond belief that the two convicted murderers did actually commit the crime.

Up country people have very strong beliefs and it is possible that two drunk Burmese guys came across two people copulating on the beach and simply could not control their urges and the whole episode spiralled out of control.

Remember Myanmar is a country where you will rarely see two young lovers holding hands...god forbid kissing in public.

There was none of David's DNA on Hannah. Sure they could have committed the crimes, so could I.

[catsanddogs]

"It doesn't say anything about Chris Ware being around at the time the phone was found, only that the testimony he gave (which he did in the immediate days after the murders) was used to help identify the phone, for example information about the brand, model and colour of the phone."

Complete and utter bs. "Yes officer, It was a black iphone." " Oh good. Thanks for that. That narrows it down to only a few hundred million potential owners." Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

And the RTP either got the IMEI from the British Embassy (British Embassy denied this), from the Royal Thai Embassy in London, or in an off the record phone call from the NCA. It can only be one of those three because they are all mutually exclusive, whatever pairings you put them in. Why you think you can pull the wool over peoples' eyes all the time is something you'd need to talk to a professional counsellor about.

The police knew there was a black iPhone missing from Miller, obviously from testimony of people who knew him and that he had such phone, such as...oh, I don't know, Chris Ware.

What is pathetic is how hard you try not to be exposed to facts and reason.

"And the RTP either got the IMEI from the British Embassy (British Embassy denied this), from the Royal Thai Embassy in London, or in an off the record phone call from the NCA. It can only be one of those three because they are all mutually exclusive, whatever pairings you put them in. Why you think you can pull the wool over peoples' eyes all the time is something you'd need to talk to a professional counsellor about."

The only person here trying to pull a wool over people's eyes is you, for example by claiming that your three options are the only ones possible, conveniently ignoring the most likely one, that the investigators got the IMEI number by reading it from the smashed phone found were Wei Phyo said it would be, which just happens to be the one concordant with the order of events described in the article in the OP, that the request to the UK authorities came after the two Burmese were detained as suspects; the confirmation that the IMEI matched David Miller's phone came from the NCA through the British Embassy in Thailand and through David Miller's father through the Thai Embassy in the UK, you are just flailing around trying to muddle things.

that the request to the UK authorities came after the two Burmese were detained as suspects;

And strangely enough, just like the DNA was miraculously a match the day after the suspects were arrested. Like I said, RTP good at jigsaw constructions.

[catsanddogs]

seeing as so many people here a hooked up on the phone issue , here's my view on things .

Opportunist thief picks up phone from the beach whilst looking for their own lost clothing

Off loads it to his mate for a consideration

later , on finding out about the murder , the phone is trashed and slung away .

The disposal of the phone is of no great consequence at the time , because the opportunist thief and friend know that they have no connection with the murder other than by chance picking up the phone , so who 's gonna come looking for it ?

It is only when the Thief starts to get put in the frame that the casual manner in which they disposed of the phone comes back to haunt them !!

In short , my point being that if you recognised that the phone was part of the murder investigation , and that you suspected that at some time you might be drawn into that investigation , then you sure as hell would not ditch the phone in your own back yard .

That being the case , the phone only serves to further reinforce in my mind the notion that the opportunist thief had nothing to do with this grim murder and rape other than picking it up off the beach .

And may I add that the B2 have said they heard about the murders on the same day they happened like other people on the island. Wouldn't you think that they would have gone and retrieved the smashed phone and chucked it into the sea or at least tried to hide it more efficiently if they had murdered its owner?

[fab99]

seeing as so many people here a hooked up on the phone issue , here's my view on things .

Opportunist thief picks up phone from the beach whilst looking for their own lost clothing

Off loads it to his mate for a consideration

later , on finding out about the murder , the phone is trashed and slung away .

The disposal of the phone is of no great consequence at the time , because the opportunist thief and friend know that they have no connection with the murder other than by chance picking up the phone , so who 's gonna come looking for it ?

It is only when the Thief starts to get put in the frame that the casual manner in which they disposed of the phone comes back to haunt them !!

In short , my point being that if you recognised that the phone was part of the murder investigation , and that you suspected that at some time you might be drawn into that investigation , then you sure as hell would not ditch the phone in your own back yard .

That being the case , the phone only serves to further reinforce in my mind the notion that the opportunist thief had nothing to do with this grim murder and rape other than picking it up off the beach .

Thanks for this good post which summarize quite clearly what most of us feel, that the phone is not the damning evidence that some claim to be.

The way this investigation has been conducted makes it unfortunately quite doubtful that we will one day know the truth of what happened that night, I believe in most countries, in the same circumstances (but with a thorough and not selective CCTV, blood and DNA analysis), the killers would probably have been found... This is one of the main things that tarnishes my choice of living here...

What I know for sure is that I do my part to insure that people I know coming to Thailand stay safe and choose a better place than Koh Tao (and Samui / KPN) to spend their money, as I strongly believe that a group of beasts (the people that did it aren't humane in my opinion) is still free out there.

Let's just not forget what happened, the victims deserve that, even if justice isn't served...

[fab99]

As someone who has spent quite some time in Myanmar and has experienced the local culture it is not beyond belief that the two convicted murderers did actually commit the crime.

Up country people have very strong beliefs and it is possible that two drunk Burmese guys came across two people copulating on the beach and simply could not control their urges and the whole episode spiralled out of control.

Remember Myanmar is a country where you will rarely see two young lovers holding hands...god forbid kissing in public.

There was none of David's DNA on Hannah. Sure they could have committed the crimes, so could I.

I doubt you could have...

I really think not too many people (but I don't consider them human) could have killed the poor girl the way it was done, with an obvious rage.

Like many have said before, the killers had probably done terrible things before and will probably do it again (and may have already when you look at some suspicious deaths that occured since).

[jimmybkk]

Seems like there were loads of Myanmar migrant workers sitting around drinking on the beach in the vicinity of where the bodies were found and most of them had smashed iphones in their possession:

"Police said three of the Myanmar migrant workers were seen drinking near the beach where David William Miller, 24, and Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, were found dead on Monday, a police source said Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong Khawsamang, Surat Thani police chief, said the six Myanmar nationals worked for a resort called Inthat, just 300m from the crime scene, and lodged in nine rooms there.

The six were detained after a pre-dawn search of their rooms uncovered four iPhones, two of which had shattered screens, along with a bloodstained pair of jeans, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

DNA samples were collected from the six and another four people for analysis, he said.

Although the six men were colleagues and lived as neighbours, they appear not to have been together on the night of the murders.

The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge.

But police have yet to press any charges against them pending an investigation outcome, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

They were freed after two rounds of interrogation by the police."

So if none of the Myanmar migrant workers being referred to in this statement from the police were the ones who eventually stood trial then it's obviously the norm for Myanmar migrant workers to have smashed iphones in their possession and so should not be seen as being incriminating.

And besides which, the police originally claimed to have found David's phone near the clock tower:

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

[boomerangutang]

That's easy to answer: Both Sean and MM were let go by police. We don't know if they were told to stay hidden and/or say nothing, but they both went to foreign countries, never to be heard of again. If that's not hushing evidence, I don't know what is. The defense couldn't have found them to bring back. Plus, the defense was trying so hard not to mention things which would implicate those who were original prime suspects ("We know who the murderers are and we will arrest them soon" Panya). The defense wanted to keep the focus on freeing the scapegoats. They knew if they mentioned other more likely suspects, that it would anger the RTP, the Headman, the Prosecution and the Court. They didn't want to anger and alienate everyone, so they kept their focus on defending the defendants. Plus, it's not the defense's responsibility to solve the case. That's the responsibility of the RTP, and they failed badly.

How do you mean Sean is hushed? At the last call he was living in Italy, he could sell his story to any tabloid tomorrow Surely as the resident guitarist, 'concierge' and hanger on at the AC bar. he must know something?

And his photos of himself cowering behind the 7-11 counter whilst the glares of Mon and his brother look down on him, apparently threatening to hang him for the murders. He's either a complete bullsh..tter or up to his eyeballs in the whole tragedy.

Everyone involved with this crime, on every level (except the defense team) are telling lies. Some of the biggest sustained lies are being told by top brass and by Mon. It's possible one or both of the B2 are telling lies also; in regard to how much they know about the crime and who are the real culprits. If a person knows how mafia-types operate, then that person will know why it's often hard to tell the truth when mafia-types don't want the truth to come out. Right now, the B2 are facing execution by the State. They've surely been told a number of times that they would only face years in prison if they admitted doing the crime. So, knowing they could be killed by a kangaroo court (or could save their lives by telling lies), they've chosen to say they didn't do the crime. That takes a lot of courage. Would you or I be that brave?

Then there would be threats of death for them and their family members if they were to rat against the multi-millionaire family. At least Thai authorities don't threaten to kill the B2's family also. Obviously, I don't know what's whispered from one person to another behind the scenes, but I do know how mafia-types get their messages across. It's simple: you tell on me or a member of my family, then you die along with members of your family. Capice?

[dundee48]

And on and on and on he goes with his inane comments. 'It's the Thai courts who will decide, not Thai Visa Forum'. Ya don't say? Well knock me down with a feather duster! Thai Visa had better stop posting all these news stories on the subject and allowing us to discuss it then, hadn't they.

No wonder most of Twitter has him on block.

I do because I find people who will constantly insinuate things and try influence others while taking pains to obscure their views not worth listening to. Factor in the try-hard stabs at being witty which end up being tiresome.....

He is not half as clever/witty as he thinks he is.

[catsanddogs]

According to the police chief, officers found Witheridge's missing mobile phone during a raid on Win's residence.

The above report is dated 3rd October 2014. That's 18 days after Hannah's friend handed it over to the police! The police only seemed aware of this fact after the public outcry over their blatant lie.

and from that same report -

"There are 366 CCTVs on Koh Tao," Pol.Gen. Somyot said, "Each camera took 6-10 hours for experts to investigate."

That's an average of 122 days if they were working 24/7.

Maybe that is a typo at the end of the sentence and it should read incriminate.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1412314798

[catsanddogs]

Seems like there were loads of Myanmar migrant workers sitting around drinking on the beach in the vicinity of where the bodies were found and most of them had smashed iphones in their possession:

"Police said three of the Myanmar migrant workers were seen drinking near the beach where David William Miller, 24, and Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, were found dead on Monday, a police source said Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong Khawsamang, Surat Thani police chief, said the six Myanmar nationals worked for a resort called Inthat, just 300m from the crime scene, and lodged in nine rooms there.

The six were detained after a pre-dawn search of their rooms uncovered four iPhones, two of which had shattered screens, along with a bloodstained pair of jeans, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

DNA samples were collected from the six and another four people for analysis, he said.

Although the six men were colleagues and lived as neighbours, they appear not to have been together on the night of the murders.

The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge.

But police have yet to press any charges against them pending an investigation outcome, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

They were freed after two rounds of interrogation by the police."

So if none of the Myanmar migrant workers being referred to in this statement from the police were the ones who eventually stood trial then it's obviously the norm for Myanmar migrant workers to have smashed iphones in their possession and so should not be seen as being incriminating.

And besides which, the police originally claimed to have found David's phone near the clock tower:

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

More farce to the pot then.

[TheLobster]

Seems like there were loads of Myanmar migrant workers sitting around drinking on the beach in the vicinity of where the bodies were found and most of them had smashed iphones in their possession:

"Police said three of the Myanmar migrant workers were seen drinking near the beach where David William Miller, 24, and Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, were found dead on Monday, a police source said Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong Khawsamang, Surat Thani police chief, said the six Myanmar nationals worked for a resort called Inthat, just 300m from the crime scene, and lodged in nine rooms there.

The six were detained after a pre-dawn search of their rooms uncovered four iPhones, two of which had shattered screens, along with a bloodstained pair of jeans, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

DNA samples were collected from the six and another four people for analysis, he said.

Although the six men were colleagues and lived as neighbours, they appear not to have been together on the night of the murders.

The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge.

But police have yet to press any charges against them pending an investigation outcome, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

They were freed after two rounds of interrogation by the police."

So if none of the Myanmar migrant workers being referred to in this statement from the police were the ones who eventually stood trial then it's obviously the norm for Myanmar migrant workers to have smashed iphones in their possession and so should not be seen as being incriminating.

And besides which, the police originally claimed to have found David's phone near the clock tower:

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

Source of the quotes please.

[dundee48]

re; Greenchair's post #205. I'm sorry gal, there are just too many skewed assumptions and wrong data in your post to address.

Ok, I'll give it a go: boy finds m. phone in the sand. takes it home. Shows it to friend. Boy or his friend tells about the murder. One or both boys get spooked, so smash phone and toss it in the weeds. Even if that happened, it's a big fat SO WHAT? I'll say it again, the phone is a canard, a red herring. It signifies scant little. If anything, it shows how RTP/prosecution/judges want to believe some things Wei says, but don't believe anything else he says. It still doesn't incriminate him.

Re; CCTV: there is only one shot of the 3 boys - a 'still shot' on the motorbike 5.5 hrs before the crime. There are some shots of MM closer to the time of the crime, but MM was let go. Why was that? He was let go (my opinion) because he probably knows who the real killers are and because he knew enough to demand a lawyer at the inquisition. RTP didn't want any smart alec like that, so they patted him on the back and told him to get lost. Why didn't prosecution call MM to the stand, or Sean? Obvious: they might incriminate the real perps. Can't have that, can we?

Re; The DNA. If you don't agree the DNA trail is hearsay and in shambles, then you haven't been paying attention and/or have an agenda as thick as the RTP and multi-millionaire-richer police chiefs who oversee the investigation. Just the one fact that some of Hannah's clothes are missing - should be grounds for throwing the whole stinky frame-up out the window.

I admire your patience and persistence but i wish you would stop replying to the the shills,they know everything you have just explained and it has been explained multitudes of times but they are only here to muddy the waters and ask the same inane questions over and over again.If they are ignored they have no platform for their fantasies except their little group of `likers`.

[dundee48]

As someone who has spent quite some time in Myanmar and has experienced the local culture it is not beyond belief that the two convicted murderers did actually commit the crime.

Up country people have very strong beliefs and it is possible that two drunk Burmese guys came across two people copulating on the beach and simply could not control their urges and the whole episode spiralled out of control.

Remember Myanmar is a country where you will rarely see two young lovers holding hands...god forbid kissing in public.

Hilarious,even the resident shills didn`t `like` this one.HaHaHa.

[Khun Han]

^ Give them time.

[JLCrab]

And on and on and on he goes with his inane comments. 'It's the Thai courts who will decide, not Thai Visa Forum'. Ya don't say? Well knock me down with a feather duster! Thai Visa had better stop posting all these news stories on the subject and allowing us to discuss it then, hadn't they.

No wonder most of Twitter has him on block.

I do because I find people who will constantly insinuate things and try influence others while taking pains to obscure their views not worth listening to. Factor in the try-hard stabs at being witty which end up being tiresome.....

He is not half as clever/witty as he thinks he is.

After 4+ years of taking crap from international lawyers and heads of NGO's most of whom have blocked me on twitter for saying something will happen that they said in widely published writings will not happen, it happened. Things like that make it easier to take crap from them and from those on here as well.

[berybert]

And on and on and on he goes with his inane comments. 'It's the Thai courts who will decide, not Thai Visa Forum'. Ya don't say? Well knock me down with a feather duster! Thai Visa had better stop posting all these news stories on the subject and allowing us to discuss it then, hadn't they.

No wonder most of Twitter has him on block.

I do because I find people who will constantly insinuate things and try influence others while taking pains to obscure their views not worth listening to. Factor in the try-hard stabs at being witty which end up being tiresome.....

He is not half as clever/witty as he thinks he is.

After 4+ years of taking crap from international lawyers and heads of NGO's most of whom have blocked me on twitter for saying something will happen they they said in widely published writings will not happen, it happened. Things like that make it easier to take crap from them and from those on here as well.

You take crap from people on twitter as well as on TV. I am now starting to see just how important you are.

[seedy]

Off Topic post removed

The posters responsible will be Suspended if this personal bickering, Troll / Flaming post do not cease

[JLCrab]

< snip >

Everyone involved with this crime, on every level (except the defense team) are telling lies. Some of the biggest sustained lies are being told by top brass and by Mon. It's possible one or both of the B2 are telling lies also; in regard to how much they know about the crime and who are the real culprits. If a person knows how mafia-types operate, then that person will know why it's often hard to tell the truth when mafia-types don't want the truth to come out. Right now, the B2 are facing execution by the State. They've surely been told a number of times that they would only face years in prison if they admitted doing the crime. So, knowing they could be killed by a kangaroo court (or could save their lives by telling lies), they've chosen to say they didn't do the crime. That takes a lot of courage. Would you or I be that brave?

Then there would be threats of death for them and their family members if they were to rat against the multi-millionaire family. At least Thai authorities don't threaten to kill the B2's family also. Obviously, I don't know what's whispered from one person to another behind the scenes, but I do know how mafia-types get their messages across. It's simple: you tell on me or a member of my family, then you die along with members of your family. Capice?

Almost as many characters involved as in a Balzac novel.

[zoza]

re; Greenchair's post #205. I'm sorry gal, there are just too many skewed assumptions and wrong data in your post to address.

Ok, I'll give it a go: boy finds m. phone in the sand. takes it home. Shows it to friend. Boy or his friend tells about the murder. One or both boys get spooked, so smash phone and toss it in the weeds. Even if that happened, it's a big fat SO WHAT? I'll say it again, the phone is a canard, a red herring. It signifies scant little. If anything, it shows how RTP/prosecution/judges want to believe some things Wei says, but don't believe anything else he says. It still doesn't incriminate him.

Re; CCTV: there is only one shot of the 3 boys - a 'still shot' on the motorbike 5.5 hrs before the crime. There are some shots of MM closer to the time of the crime, but MM was let go. Why was that? He was let go (my opinion) because he probably knows who the real killers are and because he knew enough to demand a lawyer at the inquisition. RTP didn't want any smart alec like that, so they patted him on the back and told him to get lost. Why didn't prosecution call MM to the stand, or Sean? Obvious: they might incriminate the real perps. Can't have that, can we?

Re; The DNA. If you don't agree the DNA trail is hearsay and in shambles, then you haven't been paying attention and/or have an agenda as thick as the RTP and multi-millionaire-richer police chiefs who oversee the investigation. Just the one fact that some of Hannah's clothes are missing - should be grounds for throwing the whole stinky frame-up out the window.

says it all really and if you delve into the three or four other deaths that have not been investigated in a proper manner it looks like

the RTP have an agenda that involves protecting the tourism industry at any cost..

[AleG]

Seems like there were loads of Myanmar migrant workers sitting around drinking on the beach in the vicinity of where the bodies were found and most of them had smashed iphones in their possession:

"Police said three of the Myanmar migrant workers were seen drinking near the beach where David William Miller, 24, and Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, were found dead on Monday, a police source said Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong Khawsamang, Surat Thani police chief, said the six Myanmar nationals worked for a resort called Inthat, just 300m from the crime scene, and lodged in nine rooms there.

The six were detained after a pre-dawn search of their rooms uncovered four iPhones, two of which had shattered screens, along with a bloodstained pair of jeans, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

DNA samples were collected from the six and another four people for analysis, he said.

Although the six men were colleagues and lived as neighbours, they appear not to have been together on the night of the murders.

The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge.

But police have yet to press any charges against them pending an investigation outcome, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

They were freed after two rounds of interrogation by the police."

So if none of the Myanmar migrant workers being referred to in this statement from the police were the ones who eventually stood trial then it's obviously the norm for Myanmar migrant workers to have smashed iphones in their possession and so should not be seen as being incriminating.

And besides which, the police originally claimed to have found David's phone near the clock tower:

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

No other source makes the same claim as that article, so obviously the article is poorly written and the "they" is referring to the two Burmese suspects, not the police and it should read "where police claimed they (the suspects) had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

What you are doing is cherry picking the only place were such thing is said ignoring that every single other source says the phone was found, by the police, near their lodgings.

(Edit to add: of course is possible that the clock tower is near their lodgings, the article is correct and still you are wrong in assuming the phone was found by the police anywhere else but where they have always stated)

I guess that is why you all hate to see quotes from the court report, because the information there has been examined, contested and verified, as opposed to blurbs from the press that has consistently been found to have published wrong information, that allows you to go quote mining for whatever you may want to pass as the ultimate truth.

I will point out though that from very early on the investigation:"The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge."

Zaw Lin, Wei Phyo and MM admitted being those three men.

The only thing you have proven with your post is that the police were not simply looking for Burmese scapegoats. Also that you have trouble following what is being said, the police found out those six men were not together on the night of the murder, therefore the three men seen on the beach would had been some other group of people and the police was still looking for those three men at that time.

In any case the bottom line is this:

"After having seized exhibited evidence, the police officers immediately investigated the exhibited mobile phone and the Plaintiff’s witness testified to confirm as to Evidence Document number Jor 30 that the identification number or IMEI of the exhibited mobile phone matched the number of the mobile phone of the First Deceased. Moreover, Document Jor 77 obtained from the father of the First Deceased made this factual issue more sound and credible. In this regards, the Second Defendant are unable to present any evidence at all to contradict this matter. The evidence brought by the Plaintiff is therefore credible and supports beyond doubts that the exhibited mobile phone is definitely that of the First Deceased."

They had their opportunity to clear the matter during the trial, they couldn't contest the facts or deny the testimony. That just leaves you to try to conflate things or create alternative, imaginary scenarios to try to explain away the facts.

[greenchair]

Finally Khun Han, a slight admission to the truth. All I want is for posters to acknowledge facts that can longer be refuted. That it is possible and probable that the phone was taken from the scene.

No Khun Han, it does not prove murder. It does prove, they are lying to cover up. Even now, they could reveal the truth. But no, they choose to remain silent. I do not believe they acted alone, they may not have held the weapon even. But they were there. So unless they want to fess up, they are just as guilty as anyone else that was there. The law in thailand says, if you stand and watch a crime and do nothing to assist, you are just as guilty as the person doing the action.

We can remember the jody foster movie.

Finally you've gone off script and said something reasonable for a change, yes the scenario that they were only accomplices or witnesses to the murder is a very real one. If you believe that they were only involved but may not have held the murder weapon then why have you stated so many times that you are glad that they will be executed asap?

I have never said I would be glad anybody would be executed.

I have said only, I am glad they were Brought to trial and convicted. It does not mean, I agree with the death sentence.

Also, I complain because with all that evidence that the defense had to dispute, they in fact did not dispute and wasted the whole trial going on about gait analyse and human rights.

I feel that with their young age, they were very poorly advised. Had they stayed with the guilty plea, they would have received a half sentence and been out in around 15 years.

The people to blame were the defense for encouraging these young lads to defend what looks to me to be undefendable.

The court simply followed the laws of this country.

[greenchair]

If we did a vote to ask

"Who thinks the b3 know more than they are letting on ? No matter their reasons.

My rough guess would be 99% of the posters on here would answer yes.

[007cableguy]

Finally Khun Han, a slight admission to the truth. All I want is for posters to acknowledge facts that can longer be refuted. That it is possible and probable that the phone was taken from the scene.

No Khun Han, it does not prove murder. It does prove, they are lying to cover up. Even now, they could reveal the truth. But no, they choose to remain silent. I do not believe they acted alone, they may not have held the weapon even. But they were there. So unless they want to fess up, they are just as guilty as anyone else that was there. The law in thailand says, if you stand and watch a crime and do nothing to assist, you are just as guilty as the person doing the action.

We can remember the jody foster movie.

Finally you've gone off script and said something reasonable for a change, yes the scenario that they were only accomplices or witnesses to the murder is a very real one. If you believe that they were only involved but may not have held the murder weapon then why have you stated so many times that you are glad that they will be executed asap?

I have never said I would be glad anybody would be executed.

I have said only, I am glad they were Brought to trial and convicted. It does not mean, I agree with the death sentence.

Also, I complain because with all that evidence that the defense had to dispute, they in fact did not dispute and wasted the whole trial going on about gait analyse and human rights.

I feel that with their young age, they were very poorly advised. Had they stayed with the guilty plea, they would have received a half sentence and been out in around 15 years.

The people to blame were the defense for encouraging these young lads to defend what looks to me to be undefendable.

The court simply followed the laws of this country

Cant you get into your head that the were tortured into a confession!!

Like many others before them that have had dealings with the Clowns in brown!!

They believe they are innocent so why plead guilty ?

As your 1000% sure they are guilty what's your esteemed view on the very flawed DNA evidence that has more holes then Swiss cheese?

[jimmybkk]

Seems like there were loads of Myanmar migrant workers sitting around drinking on the beach in the vicinity of where the bodies were found and most of them had smashed iphones in their possession:

"Police said three of the Myanmar migrant workers were seen drinking near the beach where David William Miller, 24, and Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, were found dead on Monday, a police source said Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong Khawsamang, Surat Thani police chief, said the six Myanmar nationals worked for a resort called Inthat, just 300m from the crime scene, and lodged in nine rooms there.

The six were detained after a pre-dawn search of their rooms uncovered four iPhones, two of which had shattered screens, along with a bloodstained pair of jeans, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

DNA samples were collected from the six and another four people for analysis, he said.

Although the six men were colleagues and lived as neighbours, they appear not to have been together on the night of the murders.

The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge.

But police have yet to press any charges against them pending an investigation outcome, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

They were freed after two rounds of interrogation by the police."

So if none of the Myanmar migrant workers being referred to in this statement from the police were the ones who eventually stood trial then it's obviously the norm for Myanmar migrant workers to have smashed iphones in their possession and so should not be seen as being incriminating.

And besides which, the police originally claimed to have found David's phone near the clock tower:

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

Source of the quotes please.

First is from a national daily news source that we are not allowed to refer to I believe - copy and past the quote into Google and you will find it. The second can be found here: http://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-british-authorities-at-koh-tao-crime-scene-49338.php

[jimmybkk]

Seems like there were loads of Myanmar migrant workers sitting around drinking on the beach in the vicinity of where the bodies were found and most of them had smashed iphones in their possession:

"Police said three of the Myanmar migrant workers were seen drinking near the beach where David William Miller, 24, and Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, were found dead on Monday, a police source said Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong Khawsamang, Surat Thani police chief, said the six Myanmar nationals worked for a resort called Inthat, just 300m from the crime scene, and lodged in nine rooms there.

The six were detained after a pre-dawn search of their rooms uncovered four iPhones, two of which had shattered screens, along with a bloodstained pair of jeans, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

DNA samples were collected from the six and another four people for analysis, he said.

Although the six men were colleagues and lived as neighbours, they appear not to have been together on the night of the murders.

The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge.

But police have yet to press any charges against them pending an investigation outcome, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

They were freed after two rounds of interrogation by the police."

So if none of the Myanmar migrant workers being referred to in this statement from the police were the ones who eventually stood trial then it's obviously the norm for Myanmar migrant workers to have smashed iphones in their possession and so should not be seen as being incriminating.

And besides which, the police originally claimed to have found David's phone near the clock tower:

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

"The British team went to Sairee beach, where the two were murdered, and inspected the nearby location where the two suspects stayed and were seen playing guitar. They also went to the AC Bar where the two victims had been seen before their deaths, and stopped at a place near the clock tower where police claimed they had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

No other source makes the same claim as that article, so obviously the article is poorly written and the "they" is referring to the two Burmese suspects, not the police and it should read "where police claimed they (the suspects) had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"

What you are doing is cherry picking the only place were such thing is said ignoring that every single other source says the phone was found, by the police, near their lodgings.

(Edit to add: of course is possible that the clock tower is near their lodgings, the article is correct and still you are wrong in assuming the phone was found by the police anywhere else but where they have always stated)

I guess that is why you all hate to see quotes from the court report, because the information there has been examined, contested and verified, as opposed to blurbs from the press that has consistently been found to have published wrong information, that allows you to go quote mining for whatever you may want to pass as the ultimate truth.

I will point out though that from very early on the investigation:"The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge."

Zaw Lin, Wei Phyo and MM admitted being those three men.

The only thing you have proven with your post is that the police were not simply looking for Burmese scapegoats. Also that you have trouble following what is being said, the police found out those six men were not together on the night of the murder, therefore the three men seen on the beach would had been some other group of people and the police was still looking for those three men at that time.

In any case the bottom line is this:

"After having seized exhibited evidence, the police officers immediately investigated the exhibited mobile phone and the Plaintiff’s witness testified to confirm as to Evidence Document number Jor 30 that the identification number or IMEI of the exhibited mobile phone matched the number of the mobile phone of the First Deceased. Moreover, Document Jor 77 obtained from the father of the First Deceased made this factual issue more sound and credible. In this regards, the Second Defendant are unable to present any evidence at all to contradict this matter. The evidence brought by the Plaintiff is therefore credible and supports beyond doubts that the exhibited mobile phone is definitely that of the First Deceased."

They had their opportunity to clear the matter during the trial, they couldn't contest the facts or deny the testimony. That just leaves you to try to conflate things or create alternative, imaginary scenarios to try to explain away the facts.

"No other source makes the same claim as that article, so obviously the article is poorly written and the "they" is referring to the two Burmese suspects, not the police and it should read "where police claimed they (the suspects) had found Mr Miller's mobile phone"" Hmmm... is that really what you believe? That if no other source makes the same claim it is an obvious sign that an article is poorly written? No possibility that the author spoke to a cop that other journos didn't have access to? Never heard of the term "exclusive" in journo parlance? Wow - you're a little more naive than I had previously given you credit for. It is now becoming abundantly clear why you are so convinced the 2 Burmese lads are guilty. Awww.... Bless!

"What you are doing is cherry picking the only place were such thing is said ignoring that every single other source says the phone was found, by the police, near their lodgings." No, but I think there is no disguising what you are doing, which is unilaterally deciding that a published news article is poorly written and re-writing it to give it a meaning that fits with your propaganda, or in fact re-writing it so that it can become part of your propaganda... (Pssst: You're being way too obvious here AleG - I know you can do better than this - time to step up your game, son!)

"I will point out though that from very early on the investigation:"The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge."

Zaw Lin, Wei Phyo and MM admitted being those three men."

"The only thing you have proven with your post is that the police were not simply looking for Burmese scapegoats. Also that you have trouble following what is being said, the police found out those six men were not together on the night of the murder, therefore the three men seen on the beach would had been some other group of people and the police was still looking for those three men at that time. " Oh dear! You're really not doing yourself any favours at the moment son - it seems you're having an off-day... Either that or as Cyndi Lauper would've said, your true colours are shining through <**that one's for you Mr Crabs...**> It's you that appears to have difficulty following what is being said - by what twisted, self-serving logic are you able to deduce that because the six men were not together on the night of the murder that the three men seen on the beach must have been a different group of people? Are we to believe that this group of six men only venture outside when there are six of them together? Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. I think anyone who can stay off the happy pills for a couple of hours would be capable of understanding that the three men who were seen on the beach drinking were part of the six, only they hadn't gone out as a group of six that night, but thanks for confirming that "Zaw Lin, Wei Phyo and MM admitted being those three men."

Maybe the following will make things clearer and help you understand why the DNA evidence in which you have such faith is such a farce (I have added some comments in red to help you follow what is being said):

"The focus on the suspect seen in the video footage came after police tried in vain Tuesday to identify the killer, detaining six Myanmar workers for questioning for possible involvement in the crime. (6 Myanmar workers...)

Each was released without charges. (All 6 released...)

Police said three of the Myanmar migrant workers (3 of the 6...) were seen drinking near the beach where David William Miller, 24, and Hannah Victoria Witheridge, 24, were found dead on Monday, a police source said Tuesday.

Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong Khawsamang, Surat Thani police chief, said the six Myanmar nationals worked for a resort called Inthat, just 300m from the crime scene, and lodged in nine rooms there.

The six were detained after a pre-dawn search of their rooms uncovered four iPhones, two of which had shattered screens, along with a bloodstained pair of jeans, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said. (There are those iphones...)

DNA samples were collected from the six and another four people for analysis, he said. (And there's them getting their DNA tested...)

Although the six men were colleagues and lived as neighbours, they appear not to have been together on the night of the murders. (Not as a group of 6...)

The three men seen drinking near the crime scene were believed to be the prime suspects in the murders of Miller and Witheridge. (As you said, Zaw Lin, Wei Phyo and MM admitted being those three men...)

But police have yet to press any charges against them pending an investigation outcome, Pol Maj Gen Kiattipong said.

They were freed after two rounds of interrogation by the police. (Guess their DNA didn't match then... I mean... the 3 men who were seen drinking near the crime scene... the ones you seem to agree were Zaw Lin, Wei Phyo and MM...)

The other three suspects were released earlier in the day after investigators could not link them to the murders, said Pol Col Prachum Ruangthong, chief of Koh Phangan police station." (In case there was any more confusion, I guess the DNA of the other 3 didn't match then...)

<Source: A national publication that we cannot link to...>

But what the hell... Just coz the DNA don't match today it don't mean it won't match tomorrow, right...?