The issue of transgenders and how they are seen by the law

[Howitzer]

I understand that a kahtoey can look really attractive and feminine but her ID card still lists her as male is that correct? Same as the females.

It's different from western countries where a man/woman can legally change their genders officially is that right?

[Jingthing]

Thais can't legally change the gender on their ID cards. Civil rights activists have been working on that issue for years but it hasn't happened yet. It likely will in the future though.

[Howitzer]

Thais can't legally change the gender on their ID cards. Civil rights activists have been working on that issue for years but it hasn't happened yet. It likely will in the future though.

But ppl in western countries can do it right?

I think the thai govt did the right thing. Too many trans around and many look like the real deal of the opposite gender.

[Jingthing]

Thais can't legally change the gender on their ID cards. Civil rights activists have been working on that issue for years but it hasn't happened yet. It likely will in the future though.

But ppl in western countries can do it right?

I think the thai govt did the right thing. Too many trans around and many look like the real deal of the opposite gender.

The laws vary nation to nation. Some countries yes, the gender on ID cards can be changed. Even when legal, there are screening policies in play to make sure people don't make such changes on a temporary whim.

Not being able to change it causes problems. Like with passports for example and the passport picture shows a female but the gender says male. Got some explaining to do!

This is an international issue for transgender people. One of many.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Jingthing

[Matej]

Don't call them kathoyes they consider it a slur.

As other member has already mentioned ladyboys can't legally change the gender on their ID cards, but they can change their male names to female ones and many do so.

That's pretty much all they can do now. Thailand has no special laws for ladyboys.

How and when it will change is hard to say.

Maybe there will be third gender added or something like that.

Also Thai transgender people are not only ladyboys ...

Edited February 24, 2016 by Matej

[cyberfarang]

I wonder if transgenders commit crimes in Thailand are they placed in male prisons?

[RawboneFunksta]

Not sure why the OP was started but Ladyboys who commit crimes in Thailand are sent to male prisons.

Even small crimes like possession of yabba can commit Thai people to 40 days or so in a male prison.

Apparently they are watched by guards to prevent any funny business going on but of course it still happens and often a guard or even prison boss will take a kathoey under his wing while she is in gaol in return for sex of course.

[pauleddy]

There are many variations within the LGBTQ world, far more than even Kinsey came up with 70 years ago when he said that sexuality is fluid during a lifetime (many people masturbate the boy next door but then get married and have 10 kids...and then some even marry the same sex at age 50 because they were gay all the time!)

The real issue with ladyboys is that the genuine ones FEEL from a young age that they really are trapped in the wrong body. Imagine being a man with a penis and 3 kids who is much happier designing frocks all day. Imagine feeling it so bad that you want a doctor to grow your titties and take your penis away. You are a woman and you want to be loved like a woman needs love. In return, you will love in all of the marvellous ways in which a woman can give love and caring and feelings.

With 7 billion people out there, there is, of course, a complete rainbow of gay people, bi people, trans people, straight people---I think Facebook recently allowed you to put any of 24 options down.

There are now people living quite happily in 3 some marriages for years: 3 guys, 2 guys and a girl, 2 girls and a guy etc etc. It works for some.

Ladyboys in ancient times were the medicine men or shamans or midwives or wise people of the tribe. The problem these days is that they feel outcast because of society, and they cannot get proper work. So, many turn to drugs and loneliness.

The sooner the Hang Em High mob (while I **** the old wife on a Friday night after 5 pints), actually start to die off, the better. Already about 10% of the world is gay/bi/trans/different. That is enough to fill 12 or 13 Thailands or Englands. Gay marriage is getting big now (only Italy is a bit slow this year). In 100 years you will be able to marry who you want to...man,woman, ladyboy or other.

Eddy

[Khon Kaen Dave]

I think that they can change their passport pictures and gender affiliation in the UK.When i was working at the Kensington and Chelsea hospital we did some work in the HIV clinic and there were many trans people in and out.I remember talking to a M-F trans and she said she had changed her name and sexual gender on hers and thats going back 20 years or so.

[CarolJadzia]

I think that they can change their passport pictures and gender affiliation in the UK.When i was working at the Kensington and Chelsea hospital we did some work in the HIV clinic and there were many trans people in and out.I remember talking to a M-F trans and she said she had changed her name and sexual gender on hers and thats going back 20 years or so.

In the UK there is full recognition of correct gender.

Trans folks who have legally transitioned and can prove they are living full time in their correct gender type are allowed to correct all legal documents including Driving Licence, Passport and Birth Certificate.

[Lamkyong]

Don't call them kathoyes they consider it a slur.

As other member has already mentioned ladyboys can't legally change the gender on their ID cards, but they can change their male names to female ones and many do so.

That's pretty much all they can do now. Thailand has no special laws for ladyboys.

How and when it will change is hard to say.

Maybe there will be third gender added or something like that.

Also Thai transgender people are not only ladyboys ...

Don't call them kathoyes they consider it a slur. well don't call me FALLANG then

[bazza40]

Don't call them kathoyes they consider it a slur.

As other member has already mentioned ladyboys can't legally change the gender on their ID cards, but they can change their male names to female ones and many do so.

That's pretty much all they can do now. Thailand has no special laws for ladyboys.

How and when it will change is hard to say.

Maybe there will be third gender added or something like that.

Also Thai transgender people are not only ladyboys ...

So if kathoey is not the PC term, what is their preferred nomenclature? I doubt ladyboy would cut it, not a Thai word.

[Matej]

Don't call them kathoyes they consider it a slur.

As other member has already mentioned ladyboys can't legally change the gender on their ID cards, but they can change their male names to female ones and many do so.

That's pretty much all they can do now. Thailand has no special laws for ladyboys.

How and when it will change is hard to say.

Maybe there will be third gender added or something like that.

Also Thai transgender people are not only ladyboys ...

Don't call them kathoyes they consider it a slur. well don't call me FALLANG then

Tit for tat, really?

Come on, let's be adults

Words farang and kathoey have different connotations. Farang is not pejorative or disrespectful term, kathoey might have this meaning in many situations. That's why it's better to avoid it.

If your Thai friends or gf family still call you farang it's probably your fault. Gain some respect, tell them you don't like it and be a man ...

[bigal2504]

What public toilets do they use

[Jingthing]

What public toilets do they use

Here we go again with the toilets.

[Lenscraft]

But ppl in western countries can do it right?

I think the thai govt did the right thing. Too many trans around and many look like the real deal of the opposite gender.

How does this affect you? Do you ask your dates to see their ID cards to verify their gender? Transgender people see themselves as being of a specific gender that they were not born into... Why should you be challenging that?

Ron

[Lenscraft]

What public toilets do they use

What does it matter?

[Jingthing]

But ppl in western countries can do it right?

I think the thai govt did the right thing. Too many trans around and many look like the real deal of the opposite gender.

How does this affect you? Do you ask your dates to see their ID cards to verify their gender? Transgender people see themselves as being of a specific gender that they were not born into... Why should you be challenging that?

Ron

Lenscraft, please be more careful with your posts.

I said no such thing! You're replying to someone else. Not me.

[aronp1]

What public toilets do they use

Female

[RawboneFunksta]

Thai people do indeed refer to 'Ladyboys' as katheoy. Most of the time they are using the term to differentiate in a fairly negative way buy not always. Asking someone, "Are you a kathoey" would not be considered offensive by any of the Ladyboys I know, and I do know many.

"Katheoy, katheoy, ham yai" shouted at a Ladyboy by a motosyc taxi guy would be considered offensive. Context is all.

Ladyboy is the preferred term by ladyboys themselves but they sometimes use other terms like " theoy" and if they want to be more offensive, Thai people use the term, "toot" meaning ass.

Several ancient religious scripts (Buddhist) refer to the garden of Eden being peopled by 3 genders. At least in one of them, however, the katheoy becomes jealous of Adam & Eve and murders the Adam "character".

Thailand is a dichotomy in that people have more freedoms than in the west but less rights. Hence Ladyboys not being allowed to marry or change their ID cards.

Although a significant percentage of the population identify at a young age as girls not too many actually have gender reassignment. The cost of surgery can be prohibitive although currently it is possible to get this done for 65,00 baht or so in the cheapest places. Another factor that contributes to ladyboys NOT have gender reassignment is maturity and many accept themselves for what they are; special individuals. The results of the surgery are not 100% positive at all times and there is a possibility that the ladyboy may not be able to have an orgasm via their new vagina.

I do not believe that ladyboys retain their dicks because they want to profit via prostitution.

They still suffer prejudice although in the last 5 years this has improved somewhat.

They are highly visible in prostitution (as well as cabaret shows and in fact being photographed with a ladyboy is high on a lot of visitors list of things to do in Thailand.) and I believe this is because many ladyboys have a difficult home life particularly in relations with their fathers and leave home as soon as they can. Naturally enough they seek out others of like mind who are found in large concentrations in Bangkok, Samui and Pattaya and who are prostitutes. Desperate for the male gaze and full of testoterone they become hookers. What better vindication of one's feminine beauty than for foreign men to pay you for sex?

Sadly though, many tourists and some ex pats generalise ALL ladyboys to prostitution. Not true at all.

Ladyboys still suffer prejudice from the BIB and are subject to random stops and extortion even when they are perfectly respectable and in the company of other Thais and Foreigners alike. I have seen it happen. I even heard a story in which a ladyboy was coming home from a party when her taxi was stopped by the police in a random drug stop (near the end of the month) The police tested her, not the taxi driver and forced her to hike up her dress and piss in a bottle right there on the street!

I admire most of them, here's why, they do not position themselves as victims, complain about the 'patriarchy' or hate men. They just get on with their lives.

Edited February 26, 2016 by RawboneFunksta

[Bear0Mack]

So this topic is under the forum of Gay people in Thailand. I can understand that the constituents of this forum would therefore be mostly supportive in reforms to legal systems to accommodate ladyboys. I'd like to offer an opposing viewpoint here, to what I would generally consider a very open minded community. Now I would like to believe that this could be a rational discussion, sharing or ideas, and mutual education, but I realize that it would likely be a heated argument. The choice is up to you.

First things first, why would a ladyboy need to prove that he is a woman, and not a ladyboy? A ladyboy can't change the fact that he was born a man. I repeat, nothing will change the fact that he was physically born as a male at birth. A man can only change his apperance into a ladyboy, if that's what he desires, but he'll never actually be a woman. There's nothing stopping you from doing that here in Thailand either. You have all the freedom in the world. So what's the problem? There's two reasons I can think of: 1. To make an illegal marriage into a legal marriage. 2. To trick another man into thinking that he's a woman, when in fact he's a ladyboy.

I can't say whether or not ladyboys genuinely feel like they're a woman trapped in a man's body, but I believe that's possible. Certainly many ladyboys must feel that way. Who am I to tell them what they can and can't feel? But I personally have an issue with the idea of legally changing one's gender on documents. As a man, I don't think it's right that another person that was born as a man should be able to tell me that he is a woman, and have legal documents to prove such a lie. In my book, that's called fraud. That's right, I think that ladyboys shouldn't be allowed to trick another man into thinking that he is a woman via legal government documents.

In my experience, many ladyboys, if not most, will come out and tell you that they're a ladyboy, albeit after a while of discussion. Good on 'em! It shows good character. But not all of them will do that. I have been fortunate enough to be able to discern who the ladyboys are; or so I believe. Say for example that I have not been fortunate enough to discern, then haven't I been defrauded or tricked? In that case, that speaks to the character of the individual in question. But let's go one step further than just the character of the individual. If that ladyboy shows me his ID proving that he is a woman, then I believe that speaks poorly to the credibility of both the ladyboy and the government.

Please educate me as to why a ladyboy would need to prove that he was born as a woman, when he was indeed born as, and will always be a man?

[RawboneFunksta]

• Well I guess that one has to empathise somewhat

Imagine that by some quirk of fate, time or unrealistic circumstance you arrived on a planet where the inhabitants considered you female and you were legally identified as such even though you knew you were a man. Might you not hope that the government would recognise your true gender, sexuality and social place?

I have heard many stories about ladyboy hookers 'fooling' punters, especially really drunk punters but I rarely believe these stories and think they offer the perpetrator a degree of deniability should he be shamed by friends who may see him: 'she tricked me"!

It's a foolish guy who can't tell the difference between a ladyboy and a genetic girl.

Perhaps a whorist may be fooled initially but a few moments conversation will make it become clear even with the most passable ladyboys.

I think some guys protest too much. Who cares anyway.

If some ex-truck driver that looks like Boris Johnson can change his identity to read "F" why not a ladyboy more beautiful than most women?

[Bear0Mack]

Rawbone,

Excellent response. I see you're very mild mannered and well thought out.

Ok. I'm imagining here that scenario. I have a question. What do you mean by "knowing that I'm a man"? Do you mean feeling and identifying as such in my mind or do you mean by knowing I was born with a penis?

Mind-wise, that's a hard place to be. Wishing I was or wishing I looked like a girl. I might even be wishing to trick men into thinking I was a woman just to satisfy myself. It would be great then if I could get a 3rd party like the government to issue me documents as such.

In terms of ladyboys fooling men into thinking that they're women when they're not. I completely disagree that it is as obvious as you state in all cases. In many cases, yes but in many cases, no. They've redesigned themselves that way into looking like a lady as realistically as possible. There are countless ladyboy or not quizzes out there to prove that fact. I also think you underestimate the power or alcohol and poor lighting. To illustrate alcohol and poor lighting, I know you don't believe the stories of men getting tricked by ladyboys into having sex, but what about men waking up after a night out next to an ugly woman?

Now I'm a bit puzzled. What do you mean be protesting too much? I've never seen or heard of a straight men's protest against transgender in my whole life. What's wrong with protesting anyway?

Then you go on to say who cares? I think obviously you do care or you wouldn't have responded. I'm really puzzled.

[Bear0Mack]

Oh. I don't think any man should be able to get his driver's license to read F for gender by the way. Regardless of his level of feminine beauty.

[Matej]

Don't call them kathoyes they consider it a slur.

As other member has already mentioned ladyboys can't legally change the gender on their ID cards, but they can change their male names to female ones and many do so.

That's pretty much all they can do now. Thailand has no special laws for ladyboys.

How and when it will change is hard to say.

Maybe there will be third gender added or something like that.

Also Thai transgender people are not only ladyboys ...

So if kathoey is not the PC term, what is their preferred nomenclature? I doubt ladyboy would cut it, not a Thai word.

Ladyboy(s) is a good way to call them in English conversation.

I've even heard this word used by young Thai people, speaking Thai.

It's very popular and widely used in Thailand, Philippines ...

Term is not pejeroative in any way, no matter what western MtF tell you, it's different culture here.

As a group they refer to themselves always as phuying, women.

Few times, in situations where were necessary to distinguish, I've heard terms sao praphet song(female, second type) and maybe one or two times phet thi sam(~ third gender)

I've never met a ladyboy who refer to herself as kathoey, but maybe some do that.

When I visited my gf family.

Her grandma asked where we met, she answered website for kathoey.

I've heard word kathoey used by ThaiTGA activists, but pronounced differently, without y(j) at the end, but rather with long e(i) same like in the word knEE, sounded like kathee(ii)

But I don't know what's the difference between them.

That doesn't change the fact that term kathoey is rude and disrespectful.

When Thai people ask me if I have gf I always answer krap, sao praphet song. Never had problem with that.

The Best way to call them is by their names/nicknames.

Their transgenderims, sexual organs and/or sexuality don't define them.

They are human beings with feelings and passions. They have parents somewhere worrying about them ...

Every ladyboy is unique and different. They deserve love and respect, like everyone else.

[RawboneFunksta]

Rawbone,

Excellent response. I see you're very mild mannered and well thought out.

Ok. I'm imagining here that scenario. I have a question. What do you mean by "knowing that I'm a man"? Do you mean feeling and identifying as such in my mind or do you mean by knowing I was born with a penis?

Mind-wise, that's a hard place to be. Wishing I was or wishing I looked like a girl. I might even be wishing to trick men into thinking I was a woman just to satisfy myself. It would be great then if I could get a 3rd party like the government to issue me documents as such.

In terms of ladyboys fooling men into thinking that they're women when they're not. I completely disagree that it is as obvious as you state in all cases. In many cases, yes but in many cases, no. They've redesigned themselves that way into looking like a lady as realistically as possible. There are countless ladyboy or not quizzes out there to prove that fact. I also think you underestimate the power or alcohol and poor lighting. To illustrate alcohol and poor lighting, I know you don't believe the stories of men getting tricked by ladyboys into having sex, but what about men waking up after a night out next to an ugly woman?

Now I'm a bit puzzled. What do you mean be protesting too much? I've never seen or heard of a straight men's protest against transgender in my whole life. What's wrong with protesting anyway?

Then you go on to say who cares? I think obviously you do care or you wouldn't have responded. I'm really puzzled.

by knowing you are a man, I can't comment with any experience as I have never had a disconnect between my body gender and mind gender. I can't think of a metaphoric way of addressing the problem but I definitely believe it to be true that ladyboys feel inside they have the wrong body.

I do not think having a penis has much bearing on it although I have heard some ladyboys saying they hate that 'thing'.

I think those that hate their male parts need counselling rather than simply encouragement to get the 'chop' as many regret it after the event.

I worked on a TV show with Nok Yollada who is now an MP and she gave a very emotional explanation to the way she felt/feels.

When I say men 'protest too much' I mean that men are often terrified of being accused of gayness! (Cue the posters who feel it their duty to inform all and sundry that 'if you <deleted> a girl with a cock, you are definitely gay".

Most men deny interest in transgirls or ladyboys but can you guess what is the web's most searched for term? 'Transgender sex'.

It's true, so somebodies lying!

I was exaggerating when I said it's not possible to mistakenly identify a ladyboy as a girl but I don't think it happens often

I have never doubted my sexual orientation or masculinity . . . I'll <deleted> anything pretty with a pulse and a pair of high heels, but some men are not so secure and despite desiring ladyboys they pretend they were drunk, fooled, drugged etc.

I just can't imagine why some people, not suggesting you, have such an issue with ladyboys . . . .life is different here and ladyboys are a part of that difference.

I find it quite amusing when some rock ape tells me 'Nah mate, I 'ate those <deleted> ladyboys, I'm a man, it's not natural' all the while, on his arm is a fat, old Isan hooker with a face like John Wayne's saddlebags and no doubt a snatch to match ha ha!

Most of them are probably secret ladyboy porn <deleted>!

I guess I just believe it is an individual's right to decide what gender they want to be, legally.

I also don't really understand why anyone would care if the woman of their dreams used to be a man . . . but had a sex change, most guys would never know unless they wanted kids.

[Bear0Mack]

Well put Rawbone. Although I still disagree with your opinion on the issue, I respect your opinion as you have your reasons. Thread closed.