boomerangutang Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 There are smarter ways to extract info - than torture. For starters, torture compels people to say things that may not be true, in order to lessen the torture. An Iraqi businessman provided the FALSE 'inside info' that provided the 'proof' that Bush Jr, Cheney and Powell wanted - to invade Iraq. ....and the businessman wasn't even tortured. Imagine what that businessman would have told the warmongers if he had been tortured. Even MORE FALSE info. And what about torturing a person who doesn't have useful info? How do the torturers know? There are smarter ways to get info, like cellmates for example. Some countries put 'plant/insert' secret agents on the ground, near where troubles are, However, the US is traditionally bad at that, and it's dangerous for the agent. Better to sub-contract it out to the Israelis or Turks. As for Guantanamo: The US should take all the prisoners out and put them in high security prisons in the US. And then charge them and have trials - non-public if possible. Right wingers are spooked about housing prisoners in the US, but no terrorist prisoner has ever escaped a prison in the US. And Americans are pretty good at keeping maximum security prisoners from running off. It's just right-winger 'say-no-to-everything-Obama-submits' fixation. Or, as Trump would say: "delay, delay, delay." Currently, it costs $2.7 million per inmate per year. That's $7,400/day for each prisoner. Is that insane or what?! Republicans don't care about overspending. They wouldn't mind spending $9,000/day. They think money falls from heaven for them and their privileged buddies. Romney, when running for prez 4 years ago, said he would allocate more money for the military than the military asked for. I wouldn't be surprised if rich Republicans use $50 bills for toilet paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) An Iraqi businessman provided the FALSE 'inside info' that provided the 'proof' that Bush Jr, Cheney and Powell wanted - to invade Iraq. ....and the businessman wasn't even tortured. Which proves absolutely nothing. Why even bring it up? Edited March 1, 2016 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pookiki Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Those who condone torture, legitimize a horrific and inhuman practice that will be used and justified in a myriad of circumstances - not just ones that 'allegedly' produce important intelligence advice. If you don't believe me, talk to some of the Thai people who have been mistreated in the 'attitude adjustment' process. The proponents or torture are fine with it until they may be one of those unlucky individuals subjected to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Those who condone torture, legitimize a horrific and inhuman practice that will be used and justified in a myriad of circumstances - not just ones that 'allegedly' produce important intelligence advice. If you don't believe me, talk to some of the Thai people who have been mistreated in the 'attitude adjustment' process. The proponents or torture are fine with it until they may be one of those unlucky individuals subjected to it. nice hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 An Iraqi businessman provided the FALSE 'inside info' that provided the 'proof' that Bush Jr, Cheney and Powell wanted - to invade Iraq. ....and the businessman wasn't even tortured. Which proves absolutely nothing. Why even bring it up? To show that even without torture, US 'intelligence' can get completely faulty info. With torture, the info garnered would likely be even more faulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Waterboarding doesn't "simulate drowning" it is drowning. Going after terrorist families is a war crime, crime against humanity. Nazis did it all the time, Israel does it by destroying homes rather than making family "disappear" (Why don't you say "cold blooded murder"?). The temptation to use tactics of terrorists is great, which is just what terrorists want, then can point at "civilized" nations and say "See, they do it!". Gitmo was great recruiting tool and did nothing to increase knowledge of what was being planned (see senate report). If west gives up ideal of no cruel or unusual punishment, indiscriminate retribution, then we have already lost. I disagree - terrorists don't want their fingernails pulled out or their families punished. That's what it comes down to - one on one. One bad guy suffering because of his actions in ways that will break him and others that consider following that path. It doesn't 'make' us anything when we respond in kind. It is a response to the escalating tactics of terrorists. How can you compare this with Nazi Germany? Just today a Muslim woman cut off a childs head and waved it about in Moscow in the name of Islam. Show me where that was happening in Nazi Germany... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 why are all these things dragged out into the open? let the CIA and DHS do their work in secret using any effective methods sanctioned by hierarchy. torture, illegal searches, illegal detentions, illegal bugging should all be banned and their results not usable in court, but they should all be usable by intelligence and counter-terrorism services. The problem is that the CIA and DHS can do this - and then you get a liberal government come in and all the brave people that were committing these acts end up in prison. The protectors need protecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverSure Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Exactly right. Torture is an important weapon against Islamic terrorism and other violent criminals, but it should be hush hush. so if it is hush hush it is under the radar and no one is accountable and that is the definition of a police state or a dictatorship, if torture is used those who use it must expect to be charged at the international court in the Hague and hopefully serve long prison sentences "...those who use it must expect to be charged at the international court in the Hague and hopefully serve long prison sentences." The US is terrified of the Hague... You do know that the US never signed any of those d$#% treaties, right? Unlike loser puzzies in Europe, the US never gives away its sovereignty to a group. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmarleesco Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 '... waterboarding and "a lot worse" interrogation techniques are illegal.' So is beheading, presumably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonmarleesco Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Exactly right. Torture is an important weapon against Islamic terrorism and other violent criminals, but it should be hush hush. so if it is hush hush it is under the radar and no one is accountable and that is the definition of a police state or a dictatorship, if torture is used those who use it must expect to be charged at the international court in the Hague and hopefully serve long prison sentences "...those who use it must expect to be charged at the international court in the Hague and hopefully serve long prison sentences." The US is terrified of the Hague... You do know that the US never signed any of those d$#% treaties, right? Unlike loser puzzies in Europe, the US never gives away its sovereignty to a group. Cheers. Of course it didn't. The U.S., all in favour of every other country being subject to a court of law, sees itself as above such nonsense. Though it sees no irony in every other country, with an inferior (lesser) record of human rights abuses - and please don't tell me the U.S. hasn't indulged in plenty of those (waterboarding, etc. notwithstanding) - being put on trial in the Hague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary A Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 The Russians had problems with assassinations and suicide bombers. That problem stopped when the Russians went after the families of the lunatics. Word soon got around. Torture by the US could be supplemented with burning prisoners in cages or beheading with a dull knife. That would qualify as equal treatment. The old eye for an eye comes to mind. I wonder how the bleeding hearts would react if they knew a person had information that would save the lives of their families but refused to give the information up. Would that change their mind about waterboarding to get that information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 OUT: Waterboarding terrorists. IN: Apologizing for and sympathizing with terrorists. IN: Starting multiple illegal wars from Libya to Syria. Then having the gall to call it the Arab Spring, conjuring images of beautiful little flowers and blooming trees. Sorry, but where did you hear this? Tunisia's revolution started when one man immolated himself and it was the straw that broke the camel's back. The population rose up and in the end forced Ben Ali to leave. It was a mostly peaceful rebellion. And it had nothing to do with America, other than them urging Ben Ali to stand down. Libya and Syria both started because they saw an unpopular leader overthrown and thought that they could do the same. In both cases, the leaders in question used military weapons against the civilian population, escalating it into a civil war. Again, nothing to do with America at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chilli42 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I'm not a Trump fan, but his common sense solutions -that PC politicians reject - are why so much of the population are embracing him. That law against waterboarding should never have been passed. Torturing Islamic terrorists should be avoided until absolutely necessary, but it should be tolerated if warranted by circumstances. It is a lie that torture does not work. Bin Ladin would still be alive without it. I would like to see how the war crimes trial of Bush, Chaney et al goes first. It should be a slam dunk vs Obsma/Clinton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverSure Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I'm not a Trump fan, but his common sense solutions -that PC politicians reject - are why so much of the population are embracing him. That law against waterboarding should never have been passed. Torturing Islamic terrorists should be avoided until absolutely necessary, but it should be tolerated if warranted by circumstances. It is a lie that torture does not work. Bin Ladin would still be alive without it. I would like to see how the war crimes trial of Bush, Chaney et al goes first. It should be a slam dunk vs Obsma/Clinton You and "whose army" is going to put them on trial? Have some bar stool buddies with you do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertson468 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Right now and the way he's thundering forward in the polls, he can proclaim himself to be the savior and the new messiah Donald Christ and people will applauds him.... just like 8 years ago where people were captivated and mesmerized by an unknown black senator from nowhere with the gift of the gob and ' yes we can ' slogan and promises of the change to all that turned out to be a non starter and a leader from behind, so dose Trump now, the new Obama phenomenon if you like..... but with balls of Steele.... Trump seems to be a powerful orator who is captivating quite a few of the masses. But there again, so did Mussolini and Hitler. America, think very hard where you place your vote........and your trust. The rest of the World is depending on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgesAbitbol Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 OUT: Waterboarding terrorists. IN: Apologizing for and sympathizing with terrorists. Torture never gave any trustable information. "the future of Rock'n Roll is Justin Bieber" "a man without a Rolex when he reaches 50 yrs old has failed his life" Torture a man and he will tell you anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzarella Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) Trump will do everything extreme when in the Presidency... and he already declare his "Program" on TV. Torture will be nothing...just the start... Tagging every Muslim in the country... Deporting every illegal no matter their ties to the community.... Give more firing power to Police and Immigration officers... Kill everyone trying to jump over his planned wall with Mexico... Bombing and flatting any "enemy" country no matter how many civilians will die in the process... Steal "enemies" countries resources in return....to make the US "Great" again... That it is basically what he will do at soon get into the White House About Environment, Wall Street, Housing, Education, and Social Justice???? Naaa...why to worry about? Edited March 1, 2016 by Muzarella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzarella Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 An Iraqi businessman provided the FALSE 'inside info' that provided the 'proof' that Bush Jr, Cheney and Powell wanted - to invade Iraq. ....and the businessman wasn't even tortured. Which proves absolutely nothing. Why even bring it up? To show that even without torture, US 'intelligence' can get completely faulty info. With torture, the info garnered would likely be even more faulty. If I will be tortured to tell the truth...I will talk a lot, in every detail, what my enemy will not ever can confirm. Torture always will end in the same way, telling the truth or lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyoldman Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Trump is already torturing everybody with his presence in this race, worse than waterboarding having to listen to that ignoramus try and bully his way through a debate with childish sniping. Trump is a chump, clearing the way for HRC come November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjunadawn Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I have always believed that these "identified" terrorists have but one solid connection to reality......family. Their ties and allegiance to their family are stronger than their Islam ideology. Therefore I always believed that to capture and arrest the terrorist's family members would be an effective strategy at stopping these suicide bombers dead i their tracks. The CIA or whomever should task themselves with having their family dissappear. I think even Trump eluded to this suggestion earlier. Islam is in fact often defined as transcending loyalty to family. In islam, it is islam, the family, the tribe, the region, the state... in this order. Family is not before islam! Islam=Submission. It remains a great curiosity for me that most people I know have been waterboarded, lay naked in their own feces, freezing in a concrete box, lights on, heavy metal music blasting and marching steps day after day after day after day but for jihadists who are avowed to destroy us, we think this is a step too far. There most certainly is a point where I am prepared to discard my humanity for information. Those who cannot see this either lack the knowledge to understand the threats or lack the tools to mentally exercise this to conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjunadawn Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Trump will do everything extreme when in the Presidency... and he already declare his "Program" on TV. Torture will be nothing...just the start... Tagging every Muslim in the country... Deporting every illegal no matter their ties to the community.... Give more firing power to Police and Immigration officers... Kill everyone trying to jump over his planned wall with Mexico... Bombing and flatting any "enemy" country no matter how many civilians will die in the process... Steal "enemies" countries resources in return....to make the US "Great" again... That it is basically what he will do at soon get into the White House About Environment, Wall Street, Housing, Education, and Social Justice???? Naaa...why to worry about? If I will be tortured to tell the truth...I will talk a lot, in every detail, what my enemy will not ever can confirm. Torture always will end in the same way, telling the truth or lies. These two separate posts of yours really are curious. Based on the first quoted post above it is not likely that torture could generate "truth" from you, at least not a recognizable measure; I agree. The first post, like the baseline information in a lie detector test, tells us the foundation truth of the individual. The above posts together do make a very useful point: When someone's appreciation of reality/truth is so far removed from the center-line of reason what value is their "truth" in any event? Based on post one, who would anyone understand what is reality or not, truth or not? It really does stick a question mark "pin" (?) in the "Torture or not" debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostboy Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I have always believed that these "identified" terrorists have but one solid connection to reality......family. Their ties and allegiance to their family are stronger than their Islam ideology. Therefore I always believed that to capture and arrest the terrorist's family members would be an effective strategy at stopping these suicide bombers dead i their tracks. The CIA or whomever should task themselves with having their family dissappear. I think even Trump eluded to this suggestion earlier. Islam is in fact often defined as transcending loyalty to family. In islam, it is islam, the family, the tribe, the region, the state... in this order. Family is not before islam! Islam=Submission. It remains a great curiosity for me that most people I know have been waterboarded, lay naked in their own feces, freezing in a concrete box, lights on, heavy metal music blasting and marching steps day after day after day after day but for jihadists who are avowed to destroy us, we think this is a step too far. There most certainly is a point where I am prepared to discard my humanity for information. Those who cannot see this either lack the knowledge to understand the threats or lack the tools to mentally exercise this to conclusion. You have a strange circle of friends or acquaintances if most of them have such experiences as you describe. Is there some club started by G. Gordon Liddy or Oliver North that imposes such endurances on initiates? Is is this just the way such types pass the time? I find your defence of torture inhuman and inhumane. It was illegal even before US domestic legislation made it so recently. It is and was a war crime. Your moral compass has dehumanised a certain group defined by their religion as sub human and deserving of such treatment. Do not be surprised then that situations may arise where others' lives are put at risk by those with similar moral bankruptcy as yourself. These issues have direct bearing on me and my place of work. President Obama continues to try and put the genie that was released by Nixon, Reagan and most notoriously by GW, back into the bottle. A Trump Presidency would see free reign given to your acquaintances to practice their inhumanity on others in the hollow name of security or their religion or other ideology. Such things have happened before in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 OUT: Waterboarding terrorists. IN: Apologizing for and sympathizing with terrorists. IN: Starting multiple illegal wars from Libya to Syria. Then having the gall to call it the Arab Spring, conjuring images of beautiful little flowers and blooming trees. Sorry, but where did you hear this? Tunisia's revolution started when one man immolated himself and it was the straw that broke the camel's back. The population rose up and in the end forced Ben Ali to leave. It was a mostly peaceful rebellion. And it had nothing to do with America, other than them urging Ben Ali to stand down. Libya and Syria both started because they saw an unpopular leader overthrown and thought that they could do the same. In both cases, the leaders in question used military weapons against the civilian population, escalating it into a civil war. Again, nothing to do with America at that point. Well said. In contrast, right-wingers will try to blame Obama/Clinton/Kerry for any bad things that happen in Dune countries. If an Egyptian falls down a well, ....well, blame it on Clinton or Obama. Why not, eh?, it might garner a few more votes from redneck intelligence-challenged folks that form the base of the Republican Party. Trump is already torturing everybody with his presence in this race, worse than waterboarding having to listen to that ignoramus try and bully his way through a debate with childish sniping. Trump is a chump, clearing the way for HRC come November. I find it entertaining. But I agree, it will be Trounceville if it's Trump facing off against Hillary. It will also be interesting to see who will be picked for VP candidates. Perhaps Trump will give Sarah Palin another stab at the job. The VP's residence is at the Naval Observatory. I've been there. It's an impressive mansion on large acreage. There are actually old telescopes there and other cool stuff. A high school friend of mine was growing pot on the flat roof. His father was Admiral Moorer. Long time ago, ha ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHolmesJr Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 So theres torture thats legal as well as illegal? Usa has been exposed to practise the latter long before trump started talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovaBlue05 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 why are all these things dragged out into the open? let the CIA and DHS do their work in secret using any effective methods sanctioned by hierarchy. torture, illegal searches, illegal detentions, illegal bugging should all be banned and their results not usable in court, but they should all be usable by intelligence and counter-terrorism services. That is likely the practice not only in the US but other western countries that scream the loudest about this topic. The feigned moral outrage is for media reporting and consumption by the masses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Maybe they'll go back to Spanish Inquisition techniques to infiltrate the Jihadist scum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 A baiting post containing an off topic link has been removed, also one reply to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Right now and the way he's thundering forward in the polls, he can proclaim himself to be the savior and the new messiah Donald Christ and people will applauds him.... just like 8 years ago where people were captivated and mesmerized by an unknown black senator from nowhere with the gift of the gob and ' yes we can ' slogan and promises of the change to all that turned out to be a non starter and a leader from behind, so dose Trump now, the new Obama phenomenon if you like..... but with balls of Steele.... Crazy...Trump plan is to destroy the republican party. We saw in the last debate his balls of steel were pretty rattled. He is nothing but a figment of your imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) We saw in the last debate his balls of steel were pretty rattled. Marco Rubio whipped him good. The junior senator is smarter and funnier - when playing by Trumps own rules. Edited March 1, 2016 by Ulysses G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 We saw in the last debate his balls of steel were pretty rattled. Marco Rubio whipped him good. The junior senator is smarter and funnier - when playing by Trumps own rules. Trump is calculatingly crazy. Rubio the whiz kid is just plain crazy. He could star in a re-make of The Shining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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