How to explain World War 2 to a Thai person

[cumgranosalum]

Get the movie Bridge on the River Kwaai with Thai sub titles sorted

That's not a bad idea. Many Thais died working on that railroad system. But as far as explaining WW2? Most Thais really are not taught much about the outside world. They don't have an appreciation of the size and scale of things. One girl I was with thought Thailand was so big. She was genuinely stunned as I showed her maps of the USA and how big some of the USA States were, with several being larger than Thailand. The ideas of thousands of ships and planes and millions of men and different ideologies would be a tall order to try and explain

Although I agree that many Thai people can be astoundingly parochial, it needs to be seen in context - during my travels in the States and subsequent dealings with US business people in Europe i found myself plumbing the depths of parochialism in a way that made Thailand seem positively cosmopolitan (a word that most Thai people sadly don't understand). You will also find that most Brits are shocked to find that Thailand is twice the size of UK with a similar population - they don't even know the relative size of next-door neighbour, france with a smaller population.....Parochialism is not the preserve of Thailand.

So many times what we assume to be "general knowledge" - is in fact a culturally based meme. - To assume that because someone doesn't know something you know, they are ignorant is actually a sign of one's own ignorance, not theirs.

Edited March 8, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

Given Thailand's collusion with Japan during WW2 it is probably no surprise that the subject is not spoken about in Thai schools.

Umm, you sure? There's a small museum in Phrae dedicated to the memory of the Thai underground anti-Japanese resistance in WW II. They taught British and American intel agents how to survive in SE Asian jungles, engaged in anti-Japanese sabotage, and radioed information on Japanese military activities and troop strength in Thailand to the Allies in Sri Lanka (Ceylon).

The Thai government was given an offer they couldn't refuse* by the Japanese, who were headed to Burma from China, but I wouldn't say Thailand 'colluded" with the Japanese.

* Basically, declare war on the Allies, or else!

That "offer they couldn't refuse" was the same one given to Belgium, Holland, Denmark etc. wasn't it? Somehow those nations did refuse.

And no, Thailand did not collude with the Japanese: they joined them and became full allies and declared war on the western nations, even to the surprise of the Japanese!

That underground anti-Japanaese resistance was the Seri Thai, the best equipped, best communicating, best organized, best supported, and least effective of all anti-Axis resistance forces in all of World War II. They did radio information about bomb targets and damage reports, and rescued a few downed airmen, but caused no damage to the Japanese forces whatsoever.

Yes - The situation between Thailand and Japan as a member of the Axis - was not the same as Belgium, Holland and Denmark - who incidentally were not the same as each other either.....this is in reality an example of how little even westerners really understand the events of what we call WW2 in Europe, let alone Asia.

Apart from our own home countries, it would seem our knowledge is in fact usually very scanty. Time and again, I meet expats who have absolutely no idea whatsoever of Thailand's role in WW2 (or WW1). There was in fact a recent thread on ThaiVisa started by someone who seemed not even to know which side they were on.

Edited March 8, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[puffy]

This person can't be very educated as you say.

When I was speaking to an educated Thai professional about WW2, he knew quite a great deal about it.

He was also fully aware of Thailand's appeasement of the Japanese and was quite ashamed of this, however

he did make me aware of a Thai resistance movement I knew nothing about.

Not all Thai people are as ignorant as this person.

That's absurd!

I don't think the OP meant "educated" in the sense of being well-read on the intricate details of WWII theaters in Southeast Asia and historical geo-politcal agendas.

Please give the OP the benefit of doubt and try to be more constructive with the rather interesting aspects of the story you bring to this topic.

My question to you, how old was this educated Thai man you are referring to? What is his interest, pastime, and profession?

He is 44 years old, He is a senior account manager at Cisco. Likes travelling and fitness. I also agree with other posts that educated does not mean they have a lot of knowledge. I do not want to replace one prejudice for another, but since posting I have asked a few Thai friends about WW2 all who have a good standard of education and in age range 35-45. Most of the men knew quite a lot whereas the women knew nothing much. Neither the men nor the women had been taught about it at school, but the men knew a lot mostly from media and when travelling, the women just didn't care and were not interested in it.

The reality is War is largely waged by man not women and I think that men often have more of an interest in it. And yes I am sure there are exceptions to this.

[cumgranosalum]

There is also the perceived impoliteness of broaching this subject. It is not a particularly great era for Thailand and many Thai people may simply not want to enter into a discussion, so for the sake of Kreng Jai they will just say "i don't know", which in thai terms is acceptable way of ending that line of conversation. I find women are more likely to do this too,

[cumgranosalum]

There is also the perceived impoliteness of broaching this subject. It is not a particularly great era for Thailand and many Thai people may simply not want to enter into a discussion, so for the sake of Kreng Jai they will just say "i don't know", which in thai terms is acceptable way of ending that line of conversation. I find women are more likely to do this too,

[Toknarok]

I'll bet if you asked the average Thai what the vast "Victory' Monument in Bangkok was all about they wouldn't be able to tell you, or they would say it was to celebrate a huge victory, victory over who they probably couldn't say either.

If you should state that it was a series of minor skirmishes in which a grand total of 59 Thais died fighting a colonial force whose mother Country had been overrun and it resulted in the regaining a of a couple of Cambodian provinces ceded to the French some 40 years before they probably wouldn't believe you. Then if you stated that after WWII those same Provinces had to be given back to Cambodia because Thailand lost, they probably would be incredulous.

Victors write the history books and the losers try to hide their shame. It's happening today, I doubt you find a text book with the name Shinawatra in it in a Thai school today.

[bkkgooner]

You seem very offended by a statue

[cumgranosalum]

I'll bet if you asked the average Thai what the vast "Victory' Monument in Bangkok was all about they wouldn't be able to tell you, or they would say it was to celebrate a huge victory, victory over who they probably couldn't say either.

If you should state that it was a series of minor skirmishes in which a grand total of 59 Thais died fighting a colonial force whose mother Country had been overrun and it resulted in the regaining a of a couple of Cambodian provinces ceded to the French some 40 years before they probably wouldn't believe you. Then if you stated that after WWII those same Provinces had to be given back to Cambodia because Thailand lost, they probably would be incredulous.

Victors write the history books and the losers try to hide their shame. It's happening today, I doubt you find a text book with the name Shinawatra in it in a Thai school today.

think the above poster has missed the point to many Thais this is a source of embarrassment - a reminder or throwback to the fascist/imperialist policies that got them nowhere during WW2.

many Thais will avoid confrontation on this kind of topic and simply ignore or change the subject. .....Especially if someone appears to be using it to take a dig at their country.

[BookMan]

I'll bet if you asked the average Thai what the vast "Victory' Monument in Bangkok was all about they wouldn't be able to tell you, or they would say it was to celebrate a huge victory, victory over who they probably couldn't say either.

If you should state that it was a series of minor skirmishes in which a grand total of 59 Thais died fighting a colonial force whose mother Country had been overrun and it resulted in the regaining a of a couple of Cambodian provinces ceded to the French some 40 years before they probably wouldn't believe you. Then if you stated that after WWII those same Provinces had to be given back to Cambodia because Thailand lost, they probably would be incredulous.

Victors write the history books and the losers try to hide their shame. It's happening today, I doubt you find a text book with the name Shinawatra in it in a Thai school today.

I hadn't been aware of what the monument was celebrating

[donsonny]

Without having read the entire tread, I just want to say this. You must be a patient person. It is totally impossible. Just see their vision for Hitler and as they behave. Most Thai do not know a damn thing regarding world history. Most they do not even know what's going on in their own country. So why should they know what is happening and has happened in the big world.

[cumgranosalum]

Without having read the entire tread, I just want to say this. You must be a patient person. It is totally impossible. Just see their vision for Hitler and as they behave. Most Thai do not know a damn thing regarding world history. Most they do not even know what's going on in their own country. So why should they know what is happening and has happened in the big world.

Which is just the same fopr expats, it's just they have this arrogant assumption that the history THEY know is "better" than the history Thai people know - talk about the blind leading the blind.

Edited March 9, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Edited March 9, 2016 by seedy
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[PhuketAmerican]

My wife is generally ignorant of history outside of Thailand and local Phuket, Tang, and Satun history mostly. She saw I disapproved of kids with nazi- style swaztika jackets on in Bangkok, and and asked me who Hitler was, so then we watched Shindhlers List and Saving Private Ryan. I tried a Pacific War Documentary but she fell asleep during that, and refuses to accept that Thailand was an ally/vassal of Japan for the start of the Pacific War with Prison Colonies in Ko Tarutao and other nearby areas until the turn of the war and the submission of Japan. She understands that only the USA every used "Nucrear Bomb" on people and that it was on Japan.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Simple answer to the OP's question

War BIG!!!! Thailand save world, bring happiness to all.

That's the official Thai version, right???

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Just because there are books out there that may tell a reasonably accurate version of history doesn't by any stretch mean that that is the content being taught to students in Thai public schools.

It's also been my experience that the ordinary Thai under say 40 years old -- not bargirls and such -- is woefully ignorant of even the most basic elements of history involving things such as WWII.

So... it's one of two things.... either schools aren't teaching that content... or the entire country sleeps through history class in school.

From the Thais I've spoken with on the subject who attended and graduated from regular Thai public schools and public universities, 20th century world history didn't seem to be much present in their curriculum.

------------------

I should have added...to teach about world history, you kind of have to have some idea of what and where the world is... like... what/where is Britain, Germany, Europe, France, Austria, etc etc etc.. In equal measure, most ordinary Thais seem equally ignorant about world geography.. Australia... Austria... same same... right?

Edited March 9, 2016 by seedy
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[cumgranosalum]

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Just because there are books out there that may tell a reasonably accurate version of history doesn't by any stretch mean that that is the content being taught to students in Thai public schools.

It's also been my experience that the ordinary Thai under say 40 years old -- not bargirls and such -- is woefully ignorant of even the most basic elements of history involving things such as WWII.

So... it's one of two things.... either schools aren't teaching that content... or the entire country sleeps through history class in school.

From the Thais I've spoken with on the subject who attended and graduated from regular Thai public schools and public universities, 20th century world history didn't seem to be much present in their curriculum.

------------------

I should have added...to teach about world history, you kind of have to have some idea of what and where the world is... like... what/where is Britain, Germany, Europe, France, Austria, etc etc etc.. In equal measure, most ordinary Thais seem equally ignorant about world geography.. Australia... Austria... same same... right?

so your premise that they are "not allowed" is wrong and as I pointed out earlier just because they don't know the same memes as you it doesn't actually confirm their ignorance so much as your lack of understanding.

Edited March 9, 2016 by seedy
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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

but why would a 35 year old thai be interested in adolf, winston and josef?

Perhaps the answer to that questions is found in the various versions of the following quote

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

That's why you've got Thais running around using the Nazi symbol and such for pop culture or business purposes -- because they have no idea what it means, or what occurred under those banners.

Perhaps that's also why some countries end up with a succession of failed governments and military dictators, because they never learn from past history that such things usually end badly for their people.

But hey, why pay attention to history, why look back at where we've been and how we got to where we are today. That's just complicated, boring old stuff... We really don't want to focus too much on what's gone on the past 85 years or so.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

so your premise that they are "not allowed" is wrong and as I pointed out earlier just because they don't know the same memes as you it doesn't actually confirm their ignorance so much as your lack of understanding.

I never said anything about "not allowed." That was a different poster above who used that phrase, not me.

It's nothing about memes... Call it whatever you want or use whatever terms and historical references you want, but most ordinary Thais seem to know very little about WWII, or, I should add, of 20th century world history in general.

Why that's the case, is a very interesting discussion/issue.

Edited March 9, 2016 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[steven100]

just say ' bang bang '

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

just say ' bang bang '

yes... better to say that vs "boom boom"...

Otherwise, it's going to lead to an entirely different discussion...

[sunnyjim5]

but why would a 35 year old thai be interested in adolf, winston and josef?

Perhaps the answer to that questions is found in the various versions of the following quote

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

That's why you've got Thais running around using the Nazi symbol and such for pop culture or business purposes -- because they have no idea what it means, or what occurred under those banners.

Perhaps that's also why some countries end up with a succession of failed governments and military dictators, because they never learn from past history that such things usually end badly for their people.

But hey, why pay attention to history, why look back at where we've been and how we got to where we are today. That's just complicated, boring old stuff... We really don't want to focus too much on what's gone on the past 85 years or so.

The word swastika comes from the Sanskrit svastika, which means “good fortune” or “well-being. Its use dates back to the 2nd Century or maybe before.

Use of the symbol, whilst offensive to those with little historical knowledge, is common and not associated with Nazism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I and others know the other historical reference..... But that doesn't make it any more palatable in a modern context.

And it's not just the modern era Nazi symbol that gets used, but also likenesses of Hitler as well... And he has no context in Sanskrit.

[jacky54]

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Those books are illegal here and I cannot even say why. Even semi fictional films concerning historical Thai figures are still banned here.

Edited March 9, 2016 by seedy
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[cumgranosalum]

but why would a 35 year old thai be interested in adolf, winston and josef?

Perhaps the answer to that questions is found in the various versions of the following quote

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

That's why you've got Thais running around using the Nazi symbol and such for pop culture or business purposes -- because they have no idea what it means, or what occurred under those banners.

Perhaps that's also why some countries end up with a succession of failed governments and military dictators, because they never learn from past history that such things usually end badly for their people.

But hey, why pay attention to history, why look back at where we've been and how we got to where we are today. That's just complicated, boring old stuff... We really don't want to focus too much on what's gone on the past 85 years or so.

"“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

which is precisely what the USA is trying to do now.

[cumgranosalum]

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Those books are illegal here and I cannot even say why. Even semi fictional films concerning historical Thai figures are still banned here.

Some books are banned here.......not all good history books are banned - I have read alot of books over the years that have turned out to be banned in one place or another - the great thing is you can't unread a book or actually effectively ban it. In fact you could argue that banning a book only makes it more powerful.

There are some pretty draconian laws in this country regarding freedom of expression and they aren't getting any better.....but they do not to any great extent account for the western perception of lack of knowledge of WW2

Edited March 9, 2016 by seedy
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[cumgranosalum]

I and others know the other historical reference..... But that doesn't make it any more palatable in a modern context.

And it's not just the modern era Nazi symbol that gets used, but also likenesses of Hitler as well... And he has no context in Sanskrit.

...apart from the fact that "Sawasdee khap" and "Sawastika" are the same expression?

[baneko]

Having dinner the other night with a Thai friend, she asked why I would be going to Kanchanaburi around ANZAC (day of remembrance for Australia and New Zealand)

I started by explaining that many Australian (and English and Dutch) POWS had lost their lives while pressed into forced labour on the Thai Burma railway.

I received a blank look in response, so simplified my explanation to be about Australians who had died in the area during World War 2. Still getting a similarly blank response led me to asking my friend is she knew what World War 2 was.

No , She didn't know about World War 2.

I attempted to explain World War 2, in differing ways, but I had no success, and it seemed references universally common and recognised in the Western world, did not register at all for her

This is a 35 year old educated and intelligent IT professional

It isn't the first time I have had this experience and it made me think of two things

How to adequately explain about World War 2 to someone with no previous knowledge

and

In Western Countries, if the school systems stopped teaching WW2 history, will i be having the same conversation back home in 30 years?

JOCKS?

[seedy]

Nonsense Post - and Quoted Replies - removed

[baneko]

There is no excuse for not knowing about World War One or two. Regardless of which country you live in . They died for our freedom of today. Ignorance is no excuse .

If you have never been taught....how do you know....people where I live worry more about the next satang!

[cumgranosalum]

There are many people here who seem to be forming opinions out of their own ignorance of WW2.

Their Euro-centric view actually blinds them to the realities of this conflict to others---the theatre of war in Europe is as strange to Thais as is the war in Asia to these people - to the untutored European Hitler started the war and the British won helped by the Americans.....this is just pure nonsense if you look at the situation throughout the world over the 30s, 40s and 50s...and beyond...

Also despite living in Thailand, it seems many expats haven't a clue about Thai history or Thai behaviour, preferring to make arrogant judgments about how "uneducated' or ignorant Thai people are and by implication how superior they are all based on their own distorted view of history that they call WW2.

Before you condescendingly "explain" WW2 to a Thai person (I'm guessing you don't differentiate which), you need to make sure you actually understand WW2 yourself......living in Thailand since the 90s has enabled me to seriously review my perspectives on what we in the "West" call WW2....

Edited March 9, 2016 by cumgranosalum