How to explain World War 2 to a Thai person

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The US did not declare war on Germany on Dec. 8, 1941, only on Japan. A couple of days later, much to the Americans' surprise, Hitler declared war on the US instead, presumably to live up to his treaty obligations with Japan. The US did not fight Germany for four years, only from June 6, 1944 until the end of war, not counting the rearguard action of the Germans in Italy after Mussolini fell. By the time of D-Day in Normandy the outcome of the war was already clear. A large part of the reason for the very late Allied invasion was to grab as much territory as possible to keep the Red Army from marching to the Atlantic.

The statistics tell the story: 20 million Soviet dead versus 400,000 US dead.

First, I was never discussing the relative numbers of casualties by any country, and likewise, I already previously acknowledged Russia's war in the war, despite your claim that Americans don't realize that. I do, because that was part of the history was I taught in school.

Second, your assertion that the U.S. "did not fight Germany" until around D-Day simply isn't true.

Examples

The United States provided war materiel and money all along, and officially joined in December 1941 after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

From 1943 to 1945, the US led and coordinated the Western Allies' war effort in Europe under the leadership of General Dwight Eisenhower.

On 8 December 1941, following the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States Congress declared war on Japan at the request of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. This was followed by Germany and Italy declaring war on the United States on 11 December, bringing the country into the European theatre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II#History_2

If you mean to say, when was the first time German and U.S. troops fought directly against each other in WWII, I'm not sure of that date.

But, for example, in terms of being involved in the direct war against Germany, the U.S. Air Force was involved much earlier

In mid 1942, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) arrived in the UK and carried out a few raids across the English Channel.

..................

In January 1943, at the Casablanca Conference, it was agreed RAF Bomber Command operations against Germany would be reinforced by the USAAF in a Combined Operations Offensive plan called Operation Pointblank. ... At the beginning of the combined strategic bombing offensive on 4 March 1943, 669 RAF and 303 USAAF heavy bombers were available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#Germany_later_in_the_war

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And as for the first direct major engagement between U.S. and German troops in WWII, history seems to say it was February 1943... again, far ahead of D-Day:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kasserine_Pass

The Battle of Kasserine Pass was an important battle of the Tunisia Campaign of World War II that took place in February 1943.

The battle was the first big engagement between American and German forces in World War II;

And as a prelude to that battle:

American and British forces landed at several points along the coast of French Morocco and Algeria on November 8, 1942, during Operation Torch.

It certainly wasn't a victorious engagement on the Americans part. But they were directly fighting German troops at that point in the war.

So please stop with the 11th hour, 1945 stuff.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And as for the first direct major engagement between U.S. and German troops in WWII, history seems to say it was February 1943... again, far ahead of D-Day:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kasserine_Pass

The Battle of Kasserine Pass was an important battle of the Tunisia Campaign of World War II that took place in February 1943.

The battle was the first big engagement between American and German forces in World War II;

And as a prelude to that battle:

American and British forces landed at several points along the coast of French Morocco and Algeria on November 8, 1942, during Operation Torch.

It certainly wasn't a victorious engagement on the Americans part. But they were directly fighting German troops at that point in the war.

So please stop with the 11th hour, 1944 stuff.

[sorry for the double post.. server connection problems. This second version is the correct one]

Edited March 10, 2016 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[smotherb]

Only old Americans know anything about WW2, because they fought in one of the theaters, watched movie newsreels, read newspapers and listened to the radio during that era. Much of what they were told was myths, lies and exaggerations. There's a reason why WW2 documents have been sealed for 100 years. To give the allied war criminals time to die off. Today's generation of Americans don't care about WW2 anymore then they care about what is really going on at home and abroad. What they hear during 15 seconds of news watching as they are running out the door to work is enough for them. Many American kids believe, the U.S and Germany fought against Russia. Good luck with enlightening the Thai.

Hmm; WWII documents sealed for 100 years eh, and American kids are dumb? Makes me wonder in what world you may be a citizen.

[smotherb]

just don't try.

thais had their own bit of trouble with the vietnam incident.

ww2 happened 80 years ago, time to let go and focus on stuff happening today.

for you and me - involved or directly related to people involved, this might be different.

but why would a 35 year old thai be interested in adolf, winston and josef?

History and geography are two of the most misunderstood subjects--well what a line of feces. So are reading, writing, and speaking; not to mention math, science, and even social studies.

I keep thinking of George Carlin, "Think of how dumb the average person is; then realize half of them are dumber than that." People are dumb and they don't care.

However, I know Thais and farangs--even Brits--who are knowledgeable, but not many. Some people even think WWII started in 1939--or as you say, 80 years ago.

WW1 started in 1917 and WW2 started in 1941. It`s true, ask any American and they don`t lie.

To most of the Thai population in Thailand during the war the Japanese occupation was just a minor irritation and most did not realise or cared that we were at war at all. Even back then they found ways of making money, passing food over the wires to Australian and British POWs for a price. It`s true, it`s all written in the history books. There were some Thai resistance fighters fighting with the allied forces not on behalf of Thailand, but many more collaborated with the Japanese. This is why there have been very few Thai war films and is a topic they would rather not mention. Probably the reason why Thais are not educated about WW2. Maybe it`s best not to know what granddad did in the war.

Ah, my poor mislead soul, WWI started in 1914, but WWII did start in 1941. The war in Europe started in 1939. The Japanese and Chinese were at war in 1937. However, in 1941 the Western hemisphere and Oceana were forced into war, to make it a truly world war. Until then it was two regional wars; one in Asia and another in Europe. The Brits got their commonwealth countries—primarily Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, etc., involved in their European war in 1939—I dare say they needed the help.

[cumgranosalum]

just don't try.

thais had their own bit of trouble with the vietnam incident.

ww2 happened 80 years ago, time to let go and focus on stuff happening today.

for you and me - involved or directly related to people involved, this might be different.

but why would a 35 year old thai be interested in adolf, winston and josef?

History and geography are two of the most misunderstood subjects--well what a line of feces. So are reading, writing, and speaking; not to mention math, science, and even social studies.

I keep thinking of George Carlin, "Think of how dumb the average person is; then realize half of them are dumber than that." People are dumb and they don't care.

However, I know Thais and farangs--even Brits--who are knowledgeable, but not many. Some people even think WWII started in 1939--or as you say, 80 years ago.

WW1 started in 1917 and WW2 started in 1941. It`s true, ask any American and they don`t lie.

To most of the Thai population in Thailand during the war the Japanese occupation was just a minor irritation and most did not realise or cared that we were at war at all. Even back then they found ways of making money, passing food over the wires to Australian and British POWs for a price. It`s true, it`s all written in the history books. There were some Thai resistance fighters fighting with the allied forces not on behalf of Thailand, but many more collaborated with the Japanese. This is why there have been very few Thai war films and is a topic they would rather not mention. Probably the reason why Thais are not educated about WW2. Maybe it`s best not to know what granddad did in the war.

Ah, my poor mislead soul, WWI started in 1914, but WWII did start in 1941. The war in Europe started in 1939. The Japanese and Chinese were at war in 1937. However, in 1941 the Western hemisphere and Oceana were forced into war, to make it a truly world war. Until then it was two regional wars; one in Asia and another in Europe. The Brits got their commonwealth countries—primarily Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, etc., involved in their European war in 1939—I dare say they needed the help.

Dates, dates ,dates...but what of the events that lead up to those dates - no-one got out of bed one morning and thought "I think I'll start WW2, did they?. Take ofr instance the Japanese occupation of China in 1931 and what lead up to and followed from that? Dates are not history or even true understanding - they are something that school kids are forced to learn by teachers who don't know their job.

[CaptHaddock]

The US did not declare war on Germany on Dec. 8, 1941, only on Japan. A couple of days later, much to the Americans' surprise, Hitler declared war on the US instead, presumably to live up to his treaty obligations with Japan. The US did not fight Germany for four years, only from June 6, 1944 until the end of war, not counting the rearguard action of the Germans in Italy after Mussolini fell. By the time of D-Day in Normandy the outcome of the war was already clear. A large part of the reason for the very late Allied invasion was to grab as much territory as possible to keep the Red Army from marching to the Atlantic.

The statistics tell the story: 20 million Soviet dead versus 400,000 US dead.

First, I was never discussing the relative numbers of casualties by any country, and likewise, I already previously acknowledged Russia's war in the war, despite your claim that Americans don't realize that. I do, because that was part of the history was I taught in school.

Second, your assertion that the U.S. "did not fight Germany" until around D-Day simply isn't true.

Examples

The United States provided war materiel and money all along, and officially joined in December 1941 after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

From 1943 to 1945, the US led and coordinated the Western Allies' war effort in Europe under the leadership of General Dwight Eisenhower.

On 8 December 1941, following the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States Congress declared war on Japan at the request of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. This was followed by Germany and Italy declaring war on the United States on 11 December, bringing the country into the European theatre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II#History_2

If you mean to say, when was the first time German and U.S. troops fought directly against each other in WWII, I'm not sure of that date.

But, for example, in terms of being involved in the direct war against Germany, the U.S. Air Force was involved much earlier

In mid 1942, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) arrived in the UK and carried out a few raids across the English Channel.

..................

In January 1943, at the Casablanca Conference, it was agreed RAF Bomber Command operations against Germany would be reinforced by the USAAF in a Combined Operations Offensive plan called Operation Pointblank. ... At the beginning of the combined strategic bombing offensive on 4 March 1943, 669 RAF and 303 USAAF heavy bombers were available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#Germany_later_in_the_war

The US and British air war against Germany was a conspicuous failure. German war production was up at the end of the war, not down. The bombers were unable to hit anything bigger than the center of a major city. The Allied bombers were never able to hit the immense Michelin factory in Clermont-Ferrand during the whole war, for example. So, instead of the promised "precision" bombing they devoted themselves to "area" bombing, i.e. targeting civilian population centers.

Later in the war bombing accuracy improved, but the overall impact of the Allied air war against Germany was small.

The statistics do indeed tell the story, not because the country with the most dead just wins somehow, but because it indicates the magnitude of the war in the East which is where Germany was defeated. By the Russians. So at the battle of Stalingrad the Germans lost about 750,000 killed, missing or wounded, whom they could not replace, while the Soviet losses were over one million killed, missing or wounded, who as it happened, Zhukov was indeed able to replace. By contrast, Eisenhower was afraid that losses on the first day of D-Day would be about 13,000 of 175,000 who went ashore. In fact, the actual losses were closer to 5,000.

You do realize that if I claim that Americans do not understand that the Russians won the war, that is a generalization and does not imply that I believe that no single American other than myself knows this, right? So, I am glad to hear that you yourself do grasp the basic facts of the war. The notion that the majority of Americans are as similarly well-informed on the subject is beyond ridiculous.

In a similar way you seem to believe that citing a few cases of combat between the US and German forces prior to D-Day demonstrates that the US was somehow engaging the German army on a scale comparable to that of the Soviets. But that's ludicrous. It's the scale of engagement that matters, not the simple fact of some combat somewhere. The Germans invaded the Soviet Union with about 10 million men in 1941. During the war the Soviets conscripted about 30 million of whom they lost 6 million defeating Germany.

By that standard the US did not engage the German army significantly until D-Day. You have to see the forest for the trees.

[englansi]

Or, as an alternative to thinking and learning something, just trot out secondary school exam misinformation and consider the job a goodun. Then stamp on or ignore people who point at a piece of genuine evidence.

This thread has descended into farce: To the Brits who trot out the boring 99 year old to little too late job, you have much more home grown shame to worry about than that. To the Yanks who respond in like vein, you need to have a close look at Plan Red in the aftermath the true strategic situation after 1812, it wasn't the victory you are led to believe and culminated in the forming of your own empire at the expense of the British in 1946. A breathtakingly audacious and lucky stroke. Kudos.

To the Asians, you have been handed the template by your own, Take Up Thy Stethoscope And Walk. To the Canadians, wow what a truly inspirational military legacy, on par with the best in history of any, including Leonidas; totally forgotten. To the Dutch, nice one myneer, you dodged a big bullet there dincha? The French were betrayed by Churchill, so don't make fun of them.

20 Billion US and military hardware to Germany in the 30's. Churchill blackmailed by FDR for his French forgeries and the Czechs buying his substantial debt. Churchill's illegal and repeated bombing of Berlin 6 months before the Blitz. The list goes on and on.

WW2 is a shameful story for all belligerents, quite in contrast to the Bowdlerised version most people deliberately choose to believe.

In that context to address the OP's question: Thailand avoided the Empire politics of four principal belligerents, and came out intact. A truly remarkable achievement.

[englansi]

Or, as an alternative to thinking and learning something, just trot out secondary school exam misinformation and consider the job a goodun. Then stamp on or ignore people who point at a piece of genuine evidence.

This thread has descended into farce: To the Brits who trot out the boring 99 year old to little too late job, you have much more home grown shame to worry about than that. To the Yanks who respond in like vein, you need to have a close look at Plan Red in the aftermath the true strategic situation after 1812, it wasn't the victory you are led to believe and culminated in the forming of your own empire at the expense of the British in 1946. A breathtakingly audacious and lucky stroke. Kudos.

To the Asians, you have been handed the template by your own, Take Up Thy Stethoscope And Walk. To the Canadians, wow what a truly inspirational military legacy, on par with the best in history of any, including Leonidas; totally forgotten. To the Dutch, nice one myneer, you dodged a big bullet there dincha? The French were betrayed by Churchill, so don't make fun of them.

20 Billion US and military hardware to Germany in the 30's. Churchill blackmailed by FDR for his French forgeries and the Czechs buying his substantial debt. Churchill's illegal and repeated bombing of Berlin 6 months before the Blitz. The list goes on and on.

WW2 is a shameful story for all belligerents, quite in contrast to the Bowdlerised version most people deliberately choose to believe.

In that context to address the OP's question: Thailand avoided the Empire politics of four principal belligerents, and came out intact. A truly remarkable achievement.

And you ain't found a bird yet.........

Hahaaa. Nice one centurion. True, but I have a badger.

[CharlieH]

This appears to have gone totally off track and descended into a discussion about the actual wars , which is far from the OP.

Totally derailed and therefore "war is over" CLOSED.