Looking for insights in Phuket estate developments Koh Kaew area (Sansiri, Land&Houses, etc)

[Bob12345]

So far this thread has been very helpful for me, big thanks to many of your for commenting with useful insights!

I am starting to dislike the idea of buying a villa in a brand new development in the Koh Kaew area more and more.

Main reasons why I think it might be less of a good idea than before:

1. While the developments look beautiful when just build, the area seems to deteriorate rather quickly when people start expanding their houses. Especially the Sansiri developments seem to suffer a lot from this as the plot design leaves too much space useless (small area around the whole house that is too small for anything) resulting in most buyers starting to build within 1-2 years of moving in. And whats the point of buying a free-standing house if everybody extends their house making it a townhouse or even worse, a complete street of attached houses?
2. Most of the developments are not sold out, not even after a couple of years and as far as I can see there is currently little demand. That means parts of these parks will never be fully developed or they will build the houses and leave them empty. Result is higher costs for the common area for other home owners, an ugly estate, and no way you can resell your property in the near future without taking a huge loss.
3. Even if demand increases there is too much land available in the direct neighborhood. When I check google maps on satellite mode I see enough space for at least another 20 plots of 100-150 houses. This makes selling in the future more difficult as Thais prefer new properties over older properties.

As a possible solution I think I will include different areas in my search and I should focus more on older estates. If an estate is already 5-10 years old it is more likely that it will stay similar to what it is now (people who wanted to extend their house have done so already, people who don't want to pay common service area fees have already stopped, etc). And hopefully I will be able to find something nice at a reasonable price as buying from a private person at a discount will be easier than buying from an estate developer. I do understand that prices rarely drop in Thailand as most people don't understand the time value of money, so I guess I will need some good luck to find a bargain.

And of course, if anybody who reads this thinks they have more useful information to add, please do so!

[stuarty]

Have you considered Laguna Park at Laguna? The problems with estate houses you mention are unlikely to exist, and the prices seem OK for what (and where) you get.

[Bob12345]

Have you considered Laguna Park at Laguna? The problems with estate houses you mention are unlikely to exist, and the prices seem OK for what (and where) you get.

My wife works at Bangkok Hospital, so that would mean a (one-way) commute of at least 35 minutes (in case of no traffic which is unlikely).

We prefer something closer by her place of work.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Bob12345

[KarenBravo]

Have you considered Laguna Park at Laguna? The problems with estate houses you mention are unlikely to exist, and the prices seem OK for what (and where) you get.

My wife works at Bangkok Hospital, so that would mean a (one-way) commute of at least 35 minutes (in case of no traffic which is unlikely).

We prefer something closer by her place of work.

In that case, you should check out the estate I mentioned in a previous post; Anuphas Golfville in Kathu. Old, well maintained estate with a mix of different size houses. 15 minute commute to Bangkok Hospital.

[eisfeld]

Have you considered Laguna Park at Laguna? The problems with estate houses you mention are unlikely to exist, and the prices seem OK for what (and where) you get.

I think the "villas" in that estate are extremely overpriced. 14-18M baht for something that could be mistaken for a townhouse if looked at from the wrong angle (see pic below) with a 260sqm plot that has a construction cost of maybe 4-5M if built with quality in mind. But at least you'd be shielded from most of the problems that plague the other cheaper estates that were mentioned already in the thread.

I am not sure though that one could easily sell one of these later on without significant loss. Even in Laguna there is a lot of construction going on and it's different than before. Now there are many condos and even townhouses being built. It used to be an area with pretty much only villas on plots of half a rai and more. The aforementioned estate btw also has townhouses for 11M THB, seriously.

Pic of the "villas":

[theguyfromanotherforum]

That's not a pic, that's a computer generated image that developers love.

These images often look different than finished product.

Numerous Thai FB pages are devoted to this fact only.

[eisfeld]

I am starting to dislike the idea of buying a villa in a brand new development in the Koh Kaew area more and more.

Main reasons why I think it might be less of a good idea than before:

...

As a possible solution I think I will include different areas in my search and I should focus more on older estates. If an estate is already 5-10 years old it is more likely that it will stay similar to what it is now (people who wanted to extend their house have done so already, people who don't want to pay common service area fees have already stopped, etc). And hopefully I will be able to find something nice at a reasonable price as buying from a private person at a discount will be easier than buying from an estate developer. I do understand that prices rarely drop in Thailand as most people don't understand the time value of money, so I guess I will need some good luck to find a bargain.

I think you did some good research, asked the right questions and came to the right conclusions.

The property market here is very difficult. There is not enough proper data, people don't understand economics, lots of greed and growing social problems. Looking at an existing 5+ year old estate indeed can be a wise choice considering the alternatives but of course in the end it wont be a guarantee for anything. Just keep in mind you need to always calculate with a 50% depreciation of that asset (for whatever reason) and you'll sleep much more comfortable. Good luck, I hope you find something you can call home. And it would be interesting to read further findings that you come across during your research.

[eisfeld]

That's not a pic, that's a computer generated image that developers love.

These images often look different than finished product.

Numerous Thai FB pages are devoted to this fact only.

Of course it is a picture. Computer generated doesn't mean it's not a picture. It might not be a photo but it still is a pic.

And agreed. Many times the computer generated pictures don't look like the real thing. But in this case it's not far off.

Here a photo:

My point stands I think.

[bearpolar]

That's not a pic, that's a computer generated image that developers love.

These images often look different than finished product.

Numerous Thai FB pages are devoted to this fact only.

Of course it is a picture. Computer generated doesn't mean it's not a picture. It might not be a photo but it still is a pic.

And agreed. Many times the computer generated pictures don't look like the real thing. But in this case it's not far off.

Here a photo:

My point stands I think.

hmm with minimum wage labourers and a knowledge of construction and top quality matierals, that is barely 2.5mb-3mb to build unfurnished

Reminds me of the estate in rawai near PALM. 16-20mb townhouses on top of the hill, haha. Jeez for that price just buy a massive villa in thalang and buy a police squad to bring you through traffic daily.

[2fishin2]

purchase a villa get a villa price

purchase a house get a house price

villa = 8+

house = 2.5 - 6

[Gutenberg]

That's not a pic, that's a computer generated image that developers love.

These images often look different than finished product.

Numerous Thai FB pages are devoted to this fact only.

Of course it is a picture. Computer generated doesn't mean it's not a picture. It might not be a photo but it still is a pic.

And agreed. Many times the computer generated pictures don't look like the real thing. But in this case it's not far off.

Here a photo:

My point stands I think.

hmm with minimum wage labourers and a knowledge of construction and top quality matierals, that is barely 2.5mb-3mb to build unfurnished

Reminds me of the estate in rawai near PALM. 16-20mb townhouses on top of the hill, haha. Jeez for that price just buy a massive villa in thalang and buy a police squad to bring you through traffic daily.

I think the whole Laguna is targeted tor the rich Chinese or rich Sino-Thais instead of western foreigner.

The prices also reflect the price of the increasing land prices, especially in Rawai. But I wonde if buying a small piece of land 400-600qm for 4-6mb and building a house on it will be cheaper than buying a 12mb off plan villa from a known developer. For the guys with no knowledge in construction it could be a real horror adventure.

The rent to buy price ratio is at a breaking point. If you have 3br villas with pool renting out at 50-60k, you cannot rent out your 8mb 1-2br for 5% net profit (look at TwoVillas Wings, 1br for 7mb )

[bearpolar]

Its really hard to rent. Most villas go unrented for a long time. Those who do rentals are usualy going with people that have contacts by home and actively recruit tourists back home, which is harder than it seems.

for 2-3mb you can get a rai easily in rawai/naiharn/chalong.

[Gutenberg]

Its really hard to rent. Most villas go unrented for a long time. Those who do rentals are usualy going with people that have contacts by home and actively recruit tourists back home, which is harder than it seems.

for 2-3mb you can get a rai easily in rawai/naiharn/chalong.

1 Rai for 2-3mb in Rawai/NaiHarn? Not these days. 1 Rai starting at 8mb. If you buy 10 Rai at once, it might drop to 5-6mb.

[KarenBravo]

for 2-3mb you can get a rai easily in rawai/naiharn/chalong.

In your dreams. Nai Harn and Rawai is around 7 to 8 million a rai. Chalong, the area I live are asking 6 to 7 million a rai.

If you can find 2-3 million a rai, tell me where, because I'll buy it.

[bearpolar]

ive seen some on thai land4sale websites

it's not because some people put 6-7mb signs that others won'T sell at 2-3mb when they realise that 6-7 wont ever happen

[KarenBravo]

ive seen some on thai land4sale websites

it's not because some people put 6-7mb signs that others won'T sell at 2-3mb when they realise that 6-7 wont ever happen

Could you supply some links please?

[Gutenberg]

ive seen some on thai land4sale websites

it's not because some people put 6-7mb signs that others won'T sell at 2-3mb when they realise that 6-7 wont ever happen

Probably 10 years ago you could buy land in Nai Harn for 1-2 mb per Rai. These times are gone.

[KarenBravo]

I paid 1.4 million per rai in Chalong in 1999.

Six years ago, a plot less than 100 metres away went for 5.5 million.

An empty plot behind my house is asking 9 million for a 1.25 rai plot. There are no takers.

Also, no way is land advertised at 6-7 million going to be discounted to 2-3 million. Pure BS.

[bearpolar]

There was one just a few weeks ago next to big buddah, sold fast

Edited March 25, 2016 by bearpolar

[stevenl]

There was one just a few weeks ago next to big buddah, sold fast

I don't know if this is true or not, but even if true it does not mean 'one can easily buy a rai for 2-3 million baht in rawai-nai harn-chalong'.

[KarenBravo]

There was one just a few weeks ago next to big buddah, sold fast

Maybe because land next to the Big Buddha is over 80 metres in elevation and cannot be legally built on.

[Old Croc]

There is a large plot of land not far from me that has been advertised as "near Big Buddha".

The Frenchman owner/developer has built a place for himself on the land, and a couple of other sites are just starting to be built on. He has been trying to sell big or small parts of it for several years. The smaller plots he's now selling may be in the 2-3 million range, but they're nowhere near a Rai!

Before him there was a sign advertising it at 5m per rai for large plots of around 5 rai.

[KarenBravo]

FYI - In today's Phuket Gazette, one rai of land in soi Naya in Nai Harn has a price of 16 million Baht.

Edited March 31, 2016 by KarenBravo

[steelepulse]

FYI - In today's Phuket Gazette, one rai of land in soi Naya in Nai Harn has a price of 16 million Baht.

Even myself being an optimist about land prices still doing well vs houses here, I still have to say at 16 mil this guy is a dreamer for non seaview Soi Naya.

Edited March 31, 2016 by steelepulse

[KarenBravo]

Double post.

Edited March 31, 2016 by KarenBravo

[KarenBravo]

I agree. But doubt very much they will discount down to 2 - 3 million Baht (as one poster claims).

[bearpolar]

I agree. But doubt very much they will discount down to 2 - 3 million Baht (as one poster claims).

And he'll die holding his land while eating rice with namprik everyday

[Bob12345]

Checked out the Grand Boat Paza (located near Bypass road) yesterday and it is clear this developer does things totally different from Sansiri.

The development area was much greener and for as far as I could see nobody has "extended/upgraded" their property so far (or it did not show at least). Not sure when the first people moved in though.

But in my view the quality of the property seemed relatively low: the window frames felt cheap, the walls were thin, they used the same roof for both the house and car park in front of the house while it only seemed suitable for the car park, etc. The design of the house was really nice though, with more functional space and even a large garden which you look out upon from both the master bedroom and the living room.

Visiting that property makes it clear how Sansiri tries to sell their units; "by giving a hi-so feeling".

For example:

- the Sansiri houses are fully furnished in a very nice style (they hire designers/architects for it and it looks like an upscale furniture showroom). It looks nice when you walk through but as soon as you would move in it loses its charm i suppose (as it will be much fuller and uglier)

- the AC's are running all day long so you walk into a nice cool house and feel better as soon as you enter the house

- they make the common area and pool extremely nice (especially given the lack of green everywhere else)

- when you arrive at the sales office some ladies jump up to hold an umbrella up against the sun; its all just to make you feel more special

At this property none of that, which made it much easier to judge (see through the tricks).

[bearpolar]

Grand Boat Paza, you mean "what a wonderfull world" thing? Yeah, it all looks super nice but the quality is very shoddy. They use the same builder as for their previous project and we know the man, hes a corner cutter. AC bills always 2x higher than they should be because isolation is terrible, doors rotting, leaks and plumbing issues. Most people have had to change everything in their house at some point.

Good thing is, it looks good, the house are well spaced(in all their projects) and people keep those villages green. I almost bought the last one left in the back next to the juvenile governement thing, the one with the large yard but the little upstairs room and crappy materials didn't warrant the pricetag

[eisfeld]

Visiting that property makes it clear how Sansiri tries to sell their units; "by giving a hi-so feeling".

For example:

- the Sansiri houses are fully furnished in a very nice style (they hire designers/architects for it and it looks like an upscale furniture showroom). It looks nice when you walk through but as soon as you would move in it loses its charm i suppose (as it will be much fuller and uglier)

- the AC's are running all day long so you walk into a nice cool house and feel better as soon as you enter the house

- they make the common area and pool extremely nice (especially given the lack of green everywhere else)

- when you arrive at the sales office some ladies jump up to hold an umbrella up against the sun; its all just to make you feel more special

I think this completely nails it. They dress it up to make it feel much better than it actually is. It's smoke and mirrors to make people (especially females) miss the real important aspects of housing. They are smart and it certainly works. They are a huge company. Their estates are of OK-ish quality mid-range dressed up to look like luxury level and asking for a good markup.

I haven't found a nice secure estate in Phuket which has good construction quality, a nice architecture and plot sizes of say half a rai apart from Laguna but prices are a bit too high there in the 30M range. In Hua Hin, I think there are a handful of these in the 10M range. Land in Phuket is getting more scarce/expensive so naturally developers go for smaller plots and that brings all kinds of challenges unfortunately.