Marriage to Thai Woman who is Loan Guarantor for Colleagues.

[crazydrummerpauly]

Hello.

Question : If a farang marries a Thai woman (teacher) who has stood in the past as GUARANTOR for her work colleagues loans from GSB bank, if the colleagues DEFAULT on their loans, can the bank legally come after the farang Husband for the money as well as his Thai wife ? Bearing in mind - they married long AFTER she agreed to be guarantor.

[50baht]

Think of it this way. You bought a company with a lot of potential debt.

[Merylhighground]

I can't see how they could come after the husband who has signed nothing with the bank and wouldn't have any legal obligation to the bank.

Personally I wouldn't have touched this situation with a twenty foot pole with bells on it...

[crazydrummerpauly]

Think of it this way. You bought a company with a lot of potential debt.

Read carefully, and note the words 'IF' and 'MARRIES'. It's a hypothetical question of great interest to 1000s of men in the country - though most of them are not even aware of the risk.

[crazydrummerpauly]

I can't see how they could come after the husband who has signed nothing with the bank and wouldn't have any legal obligation to the bank.

Personally I wouldn't have touched this situation with a twenty foot pole with bells on it...

Re your second sentence, see my reply to 50baht. Yes, your first sentence makes perfect logical sense. But logic and the Law do not always coincide.

[Merylhighground]

But logic and the Law do not always coincide.

Indeed they don't Pauly.

Nor, sadly do common sense and marriage go hand in hand either, especially in Thailand. Off the cuff, not knowing either person involved, were this a friend of mine I'd tell him to leave well alone until his intended's obligations to the bank have been met.

[crazydrummerpauly]

But logic and the Law do not always coincide.

Indeed they don't Pauly.

Nor, sadly do common sense and marriage go hand in hand either, especially in Thailand. Off the cuff, not knowing either person involved, were this a friend of mine I'd tell him to leave well alone until his intended's obligations to the bank have been met.

Agreed about the absence of common sense. As for the 'obligations', i have been researching this topic and it throws up some very scary facts. Most of the people that sign these Guarantor agreements to help friends, colleagues and relatives in LoS really don't understand how serious they are. Some of the contracts have a clause which states that the Guarantor will be responsible for any default on FUTURE debts their friend takes out as well as the one on the table at present ! As for spouses being chased, i know of an elderly German resident here who has been chased by 'mafia types' trying to pressurise him into paying for the default on a debt his wife stood as Guarantor for. That was probably a rather 'informal loan' in the first place, not a proper bank loan. The problem of the liabilities that guarantors can end with up getting out of hand, to the point of their ruin, has been addressed by the current government - the rules were changed around December 2014 into 2015, but i'm still trying to understand the fine detail. Here's the results of a google search for 'guarantors in thai law' - https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-2698861478625135:3033704849&ie=UTF-8&q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20law#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20la

Not bedtime reading !

[Merylhighground]

As for spouses being chased, i know of an elderly German resident here who has been chased by 'mafia types' trying to pressurise him into paying for the default on a debt his wife stood as Guarantor for.

That could be similar to where in the UK banks can 'sell' the debt to a 'collecting agency', basically a (somehow) approved company of thugs who then seem to have carte blanche to chase people down to reclaim the debt though in recent years such vile bodies have thankfully been clamped down on.

From reading your above post, I'd say that while legally the 'farang' may not be liable for his intended's obligations to the bank, I'm sure that as soon as they get a sniff there is a (posssibly) moneyed 'farang' in the picture he could find the bills heading his way either from the bank or the wife....

I know that you weren't looking for personal advice for your pal but if I were him, I'd be running a mile in tight shoes to get away from this one.

She could look like Apisamai Srirangsan and bang like a toilet door in a cholera outbreak but there were so many alarm bells ringing here from the first reading of your OP to even more clanging now after reading more.

• Why start a married life with such a financial obligation hanging in the air, especially one which is out of the hands of both parties?

• Has she just raked in a 'rich foreigner' as she knows he'll dig her out of the soup if needed and the whole thing is a marriage based on money?

This is one of those friendly arm on shoulder over a few beers moments we all face at some point in our lives in Thailand, which begin with 'you aren't going to like what I have to say buddy....

Good luck to your pal but I know what I'd be telling him......

[Morakot]

Under Thai law, assets and liabilities that exist prior to marriage don't need to be shared. Assets and liabilities acquired during marriage are shared equally.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Morakot

[mrfaroukh]

There is a possibility, you must check it properly

[akentryan]

Have you not been following the current news that a Thai woman went to Harvard, got a doctorate and then defaulted on loans that were guaranteed by colleagues? She says she can't pay and they are filing suit against her. Joint bank accounts, cars, houses, etc would certainly be at risk. Other than that anything in your name should be safe.

[crazydrummerpauly]

But logic and the Law do not always coincide.

Indeed they don't Pauly.

Nor, sadly do common sense and marriage go hand in hand either, especially in Thailand. Off the cuff, not knowing either person involved, were this a friend of mine I'd tell him to leave well alone until his intended's obligations to the bank have been met.

Agreed about the absence of common sense. As for the 'obligations', i have been researching this topic and it throws up some very scary facts. Most of the people that sign these Guarantor agreements to help friends, colleagues and relatives in LoS really don't understand how serious they are. Some of the contracts have a clause which states that the Guarantor will be responsible for any default on FUTURE debts their friend takes out as well as the one on the table at present ! As for spouses being chased, i know of an elderly German resident here who has been chased by 'mafia types' trying to pressurise him into paying for the default on a debt his wife stood as Guarantor for. That was probably a rather 'informal loan' in the first place, not a proper bank loan. The problem of the liabilities that guarantors can end with up getting out of hand, to the point of their ruin, has been addressed by the current government - the rules were changed around December 2014 into 2015, but i'm still trying to understand the fine detail. Here's the results of a google search for 'guarantors in thai law' - https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-2698861478625135:3033704849&ie=UTF-8&q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20law#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20la

Not bedtime reading !

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-2698861478625135:3033704849&ie=UTF-8&q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20law#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20law

- the link was missing one 'w' !

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

Speak to a lawyer, the laymen lawyers on here know s...t about the Thai law. Look at the options on a pre-nup and for your gf to replace herself by someone else as guarantor.

[Morakot]

Some of the contracts have a clause which states that the Guarantor will be responsible for any default on FUTURE debts their friend takes out as well as the one on the table at present !

That's a common clause to prevent people taking out another loan to pay off the initial loan.

If the guaranteed loan is paid off, there will be no future obligation.

i know of an elderly German resident here who has been chased by 'mafia types' trying to pressurise him into paying for the default on a debt his wife stood as Guarantor for. That was probably a rather 'informal loan' in the first place, not a proper bank loan.

One's martial status is usually irrelevant when dealing with mafia-like people.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Morakot

[Ulic]

Look at it from another perspective. The perfect excuse as to why you cannot get married.

Tell her once her friends have paid the debt and there are no longer any possibilities

of future liabilities from her signing as a guarantor, then you would be happy to get married.

[little mary sunshine]

"Run Forest Run"!!!!!!

[mikiea]

ahh... a oldie but goodie .

[Gracas]

I would be VERY surprised if the potential husband (in your question) is told about the debt / potential debt (or all the debts) prior to the marriage. It seems to usually be disclosed after the marriage (and not just in Thailand).

[gemguy]

Assume that they can or certainly will try

This is Thailand remember.

Best to get a legal document or some sort of legal protection that clearly separates you from her money related problems.

Over the years I have known of several cases where the police came and arrested the partner or associate or family member of someone that did a runner or died and was not there to address the issue of money owed or an accounting owed.

End result: They will arrest anyone they believe can pay the money and they will at least try to extort the money out of you in some way or some how.

Anyone here that doubts they will at least try to make someone else responsible and or pay the debt or money owed is mistaken in their beliefs or thinking.

Cheers

[gemguy]

Some of the contracts have a clause which states that the Guarantor will be responsible for any default on FUTURE debts their friend takes out as well as the one on the table at present !

That's a common clause to prevent people taking out another loan to pay off the initial loan.

If the guaranteed loan is paid off, there will be no future obligation.

i know of an elderly German resident here who has been chased by 'mafia types' trying to pressurise him into paying for the default on a debt his wife stood as Guarantor for. That was probably a rather 'informal loan' in the first place, not a proper bank loan.

One's martial status is usually irrelevant when dealing with mafia-like people.

If you think they will not TRY to come after the husband and especially a foreigner then you are sadly mistaken.

Sure you can fight it and or try to ignore it and go find a lawyer and cost you a whole lot of money to fight their attempts to make you pay some how or some way....but none of that will stop them from trying.

You have seen what happened to some foreigners when the wife ran up gambling debts with the mafia run gambling and betting affairs and or used their properties as collateral for loans that the husband did not even know about.

The low life's just colluded to take the properties that were paid for by the husband and left the husband and the whole family on their own with no recourse while no Thai person can help them or wants to help them

Besides ..Mafia types do not readily accept losing money while they are prepared to recover it any which way they can including putting the pressure on you, the husband or long term BF, and or outright extorting the money out of you.

You should not doubt they will try.

Cheers

Edited March 22, 2016 by gemguy

[Kwasaki]

Tell him to talk to his wife about how much monies involved and who the people are that she has been guarantor to.

​If not satisfied get a divorce settlement and complete break.

[Toscano]

My wife is a school teacher and she and her family and friends all act as guarantors for one another ; my wife tells me that they have many many years to pay back the bank , so I think the risk to a foreign husband is small . My advice to foreigners over 50yrs , is to get a retirement visa , then you can marry ( if you must ) with a simple Thai wedding that has no legal hold on you at all .

[crazydrummerpauly]

Assume that they can or certainly will try

This is Thailand remember.

Best to get a legal document or some sort of legal protection that clearly separates you from her money related problems.

Over the years I have known of several cases where the police came and arrested the partner or associate or family member of someone that did a runner or died and was not there to address the issue of money owed or an accounting owed.

End result: They will arrest anyone they believe can pay the money and they will at least try to extort the money out of you in some way or some how.

Anyone here that doubts they will at least try to make someone else responsible and or pay the debt or money owed is mistaken in their beliefs or thinking.

Cheers

Well said gemguy - not happy reading but as you say, TiT. The whole 'guarantor' culture is horrendous, and the more one looks into it the worse it gets.

[Straight8]

Look at it from another perspective. The perfect excuse as to why you cannot get married.

Tell her once her friends have paid the debt and there are no longer any possibilities

of future liabilities from her signing as a guarantor, then you would be happy to get married.

And he'll know that she is telling the truth too.. yeah right!

Another one to add to the long list of why a foreigner should never get married to a Thai women...period!!

You just don't know what is lurking in the closet.

[meatboy]

But logic and the Law do not always coincide.

Indeed they don't Pauly.

Nor, sadly do common sense and marriage go hand in hand either, especially in Thailand. Off the cuff, not knowing either person involved, were this a friend of mine I'd tell him to leave well alone until his intended's obligations to the bank have been met.

Agreed about the absence of common sense. As for the 'obligations', i have been researching this topic and it throws up some very scary facts. Most of the people that sign these Guarantor agreements to help friends, colleagues and relatives in LoS really don't understand how serious they are. Some of the contracts have a clause which states that the Guarantor will be responsible for any default on FUTURE debts their friend takes out as well as the one on the table at present ! As for spouses being chased, i know of an elderly German resident here who has been chased by 'mafia types' trying to pressurise him into paying for the default on a debt his wife stood as Guarantor for. That was probably a rather 'informal loan' in the first place, not a proper bank loan. The problem of the liabilities that guarantors can end with up getting out of hand, to the point of their ruin, has been addressed by the current government - the rules were changed around December 2014 into 2015, but i'm still trying to understand the fine detail. Here's the results of a google search for 'guarantors in thai law' - https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-2698861478625135:3033704849&ie=UTF-8&q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20law#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=guarantors%20in%20thai%20la

Not bedtime reading !

and dont forget to mention the other way that loans can be had by her colleagues as well,you know the ones that send 2men in dark clothing and blacked out helmets on fast bikes to collect the payments.consider what happens when they cant collect.

[timendres]

"Run Forest Run"!!!!!!

[crazydrummerpauly]

Look at it from another perspective. The perfect excuse as to why you cannot get married.

Tell her once her friends have paid the debt and there are no longer any possibilities

of future liabilities from her signing as a guarantor, then you would be happy to get married.

And he'll know that she is telling the truth too.. yeah right!

Another one to add to the long list of why a foreigner should never get married to a Thai women...period!!

You just don't know what is lurking in the closet.

"You just don't know what is lurking in the closet." Sad but oh so true !

[crazydrummerpauly]

Look at it from another perspective. The perfect excuse as to why you cannot get married.

Tell her once her friends have paid the debt and there are no longer any possibilities

of future liabilities from her signing as a guarantor, then you would be happy to get married.

And he'll know that she is telling the truth too.. yeah right!

Another one to add to the long list of why a foreigner should never get married to a Thai women...period!!

You just don't know what is lurking in the closet.

The thing that has really shocked me (though i know i should be beyond shock in LoS by now), is that the people acting as Guarantor do not even understand what they've signed up for. One women recently told me that she hoped to get out of the guarantees she had given by paying off her OWN loan with the bank - not grasping at all that it is her colleagues loans she is tied to for aeons ! Your "once her friends have paid the (ie, their) debt" is spot on.

[khundon]

Why would she be guarantor for multiple friends at work in the first place?

Something fishy about this. Maybe they paid her to sign, typical Thai thing.

[crazydrummerpauly]

Why would she be guarantor for multiple friends at work in the first place?

Something fishy about this. Maybe they paid her to sign, typical Thai thing.

The 'Guarantor culture' is central to the borrowing ability of thousands if not millions of Thais. There is nothing 'fishy' about it at all, but it does carry pretty scary risks if things go wrong. It is all about the banks wanting to be covered. It works like this - 3 teachers (for example), form a threesome of Guarantors - so each one looking for a loan has 2 Guarantors - they see it as 'helping each other'. MOST of the time, it works well, and loans eventually get paid off, but often a couple of decades after they were taken out - a long time to be under the threat of a borrower defaulting and the lender going after the Guarantors. The reason it works most of the time, is the banks only entertain these kinds of loans where civil-servants of other professionals from 'good families' are involved, and above all, the monthly payments are taken out of their salaries BEFORE they get what's left. I've seen salary-slips for teachers earning 40,000 baht a month who only have 5,000 baht left after all loans and other compulsory payments (such as the teacher's death benefit fund) are taken out.

Your question : 'Why should she be guarantor for multiple friends at work in the first place ?' is one i've asked myself !

Edited March 23, 2016 by crazydrummerpauly