Thousands trace Jesus' footsteps on Good Friday in Jerusalem

[sirineou]

I completely respect your views and your right to hold those views ........... Well isn't that nice of you.

Some sources also come from visions during prayer................ Hallucinations

in broad daylight and while completely sober. Many people have had vivid real visions of biblical scenes......................... People with schizophrenia do too.

I believe that Satan was cast down.......................... wow! Delusional.

God is as real as the Easter Bunny.

Amen.

I thought Yunla's post was quite honest and polite, certainly contrasting the confrontational response. I do not believe for a moment that the Christian story is anything other than contrived fantasy. It was clearly co-opted and modified in the hundreds of years that followed to resemble the familiar dead and rising gods narrative that the Roman/Hellenistic world would have been familiar. In fact, the archeoastronomy details in the christian narrative make it clear that this was a mystery school that was seeded into the Jesus story. But Yunla is correct: There is a collective dimension to shared consciousness and belief in which people access these hypnagogic states and have "experiences."

They are not hallucinations. They are not schizophrenic. They are not delusional. The number of people in history with these shared experiences are simply staggering. However, left to the sensory devices to explain these experiences people fit them into fantastical narratives or accept verbatim stories handed down; but the experiences are inherently real. Its the context which is false.

That a person does not have such experiences- not hallucinating; not schizophrenic; not delusional, is likely a reflection of superficiality, or refuge in logic at the expense of a priori. A gross inability for qualia that transcends their mundane world. It is perfectly acceptable to indict the belief without indicting the poster. Indeed, more is said by people who post this way than that which they respond to.

Though I I agree with most of what you have to say on the subject I dont understand the

"They are not hallucinations. They are not schizophrenic. They are not delusional. "

Perhaps you could explain further, reality is a favorite subject of mine.

If one sees an apple but an apple is not there I would think that person is hallucinating,and if such person expects to nourish him/her self with said apple, I would say such person is delusional.

Posts remove to reply: Hello Sirineou

Humans have variously had these experiences throughout history- mystical, pre-dream/post-awake, body alseep/mind awake states, hypnagogic, transcendental. What shared state we access I do not know but the commonality is indisputable; its the entire premise of some very brilliant minds, such as Jung for one. What then happens over the ages is various efforts to explain or rationalize the experiences are filtered through local conventions, archetypes, myths, elder's narrative, creation cosmology, etc. These then become the exegesis of the experiences= religions, mysticism.The explanations (religions) that apply themselves to the practical as well, with social laws and conventions, written testimony, injunctions, a "code," survive the ages. If the narrative applied to these mystical/peak experiences answer the core questions of local peoples, the religion survives. If the religion that overlays the core experiences is open to syncretism and can adapt and change, the religion can proselytize and grow. The religion may finally become a fantastical overlay but the core experiences that humans have that gave rise to religions most certainly exist; they are common experiences and a growing body of research confirms these states.

If we accept that the core experiences that found religion and shamanism, etc, are hallucinations, schizophrenia, or delusional, we must then come up with descriptions for these pathological states from the DSM-V or in the case of delusional, agreement on baseline reality. Religions are formed from natural but uncommon states/peak-experiences of consciousness; consciousness is not on or off, it most definitely is a continuum, as any anesthesiologist can attest. The experiences.... whatever they are... are simply other states of consciousness with universally common themes- such as Jungian archetypes, for instance. Religion is the afterbirth that is applied to these ineffable states, filtered through sensory (read 5 senses) explanations. Considering the nature of the OP, IMO, it was over the top to badger those who believe, especially with such a feeble cudgel.

Good to see you again arzunadawn

This is all well and good. No dispute that humans experience these states through out history, and in the absence of better explanations attribute it to the metaphysical

But reality exists independent of as, and is unaffected by our perception of it.

So if I understand the definition of a hallucination correctly, if one sees something that does not exist in reality one is hallucinating, and if some one expect his hallucinations to affect reality is delusional

What causes these hallucinations, can have many causes, but IMO it does not make them any less of a hallucination.

If one is experiencing something that does not exist one is hallucinating, what else can it be.

Notice, I am asking an open question. A lawyer who only wants to win, would never ask a question to which he does not know the answer,

I dont just want to win, I am really interested to know.

Also see if you have not already done so, how stimulating specific areas of the brain induces religious experiences, Google the subject, IMO very interesting.

[Yunla]

Posts remove to reply: Hello Sirineou

Humans have variously had these experiences throughout history- mystical, pre-dream/post-awake, body alseep/mind awake states, hypnagogic, transcendental. What shared state we access I do not know but the commonality is indisputable; its the entire premise of some very brilliant minds, such as Jung for one. What then happens over the ages is various efforts to explain or rationalize the experiences are filtered through local conventions, archetypes, myths, elder's narrative, creation cosmology, etc. These then become the exegesis of the experiences= religions, mysticism.The explanations (religions) that apply themselves to the practical as well, with social laws and conventions, written testimony, injunctions, a "code," survive the ages. If the narrative applied to these mystical/peak experiences answer the core questions of local peoples, the religion survives. If the religion that overlays the core experiences is open to syncretism and can adapt and change, the religion can proselytize and grow. The religion may finally become a fantastical overlay but the core experiences that humans have that gave rise to religions most certainly exist; they are common experiences and a growing body of research confirms these states.

If we accept that the core experiences that found religion and shamanism, etc, are hallucinations, schizophrenia, or delusional, we must then come up with descriptions for these pathological states from the DSM-V or in the case of delusional, agreement on baseline reality. Religions are formed from natural but uncommon states/peak-experiences of consciousness; consciousness is not on or off, it most definitely is a continuum, as any anesthesiologist can attest. The experiences.... whatever they are... are simply other states of consciousness with universally common themes- such as Jungian archetypes, for instance. Religion is the afterbirth that is applied to these ineffable states, filtered through sensory (read 5 senses) explanations. Considering the nature of the OP, IMO, it was over the top to badger those who believe, especially with such a feeble cudgel.

Good to see you again arzunadawn

This is all well and good. No dispute that humans experience these states through out history, and in the absence of better explanations attribute it to the metaphysical

But reality exists independent of as, and is unaffected by our perception of it.

So if I understand the definition of a hallucination correctly, if one sees something that does not exist in reality one is hallucinating, and if some one expect his hallucinations to affect reality is delusional

What causes these hallucinations, can have many causes, but IMO it does not make them any less of a hallucination.

If one is experiencing something that does not exist one is hallucinating, what else can it be.

Notice, I am asking an open question. A lawyer who only wants to win, would never ask a question to which he does not know the answer,

I dont just want to win, I am really interested to know.

Also see if you have not already done so, how stimulating specific areas of the brain induces religious experiences, Google the subject, IMO very interesting.

I too am fascinated by hallucinations of all types. I have also studied shamanism, which can be equated to a toolkit used by master engineers, to tinker with consciousness and expose the wiring under the board of reality. I have nothing but the utmost respect for shamans, and vision-seekers of any religious faith. I also know people who suffer hallucinations related to clinical brain-disorders, and also extreme trauma-survivors who build an actual wall of hallucinations to block out the real visions of what actually happened. There are many forms of hallucinations. I will happily listen to them all, and I would never judge a person for having hallucinations of any type, as it is part of their life-journey and is therefor entirely real for that person.

However. When I and others have experienced visions, we are reporting a full-body experience, not only visual. More importantly, we are experiencing overwhelming sensations of love and joy. These things do not come from visual hallucinations, as might be seen after a blow to the head. If they do, it is a minor penumbral side-effect, like "that's nice" or "wow cool."

The feelings in my visions are of a homecoming. I am being welcomed home. Love surrounds me, it knocks me off my feet. I feel pulses of energy entering my abdomen at the umbilicus. Words I hear during visions are like actual physical vibrations in my abdomen, so even though they are words and have the vibration sound effect, they are felt and not heard. It is completely overwhelming, as is the sense of love which is so enormous, like the whole Universe giving me a big "welcome home" hug. I am utterly convinced that these effects are not hallucinations, they are the voice of God, welcoming another of his children home after wandering alone and lost in the underworld for so long.

[sirineou]

Posts remove to reply: Hello Sirineou

Humans have variously had these experiences throughout history- mystical, pre-dream/post-awake, body alseep/mind awake states, hypnagogic, transcendental. What shared state we access I do not know but the commonality is indisputable; its the entire premise of some very brilliant minds, such as Jung for one. What then happens over the ages is various efforts to explain or rationalize the experiences are filtered through local conventions, archetypes, myths, elder's narrative, creation cosmology, etc. These then become the exegesis of the experiences= religions, mysticism.The explanations (religions) that apply themselves to the practical as well, with social laws and conventions, written testimony, injunctions, a "code," survive the ages. If the narrative applied to these mystical/peak experiences answer the core questions of local peoples, the religion survives. If the religion that overlays the core experiences is open to syncretism and can adapt and change, the religion can proselytize and grow. The religion may finally become a fantastical overlay but the core experiences that humans have that gave rise to religions most certainly exist; they are common experiences and a growing body of research confirms these states.

If we accept that the core experiences that found religion and shamanism, etc, are hallucinations, schizophrenia, or delusional, we must then come up with descriptions for these pathological states from the DSM-V or in the case of delusional, agreement on baseline reality. Religions are formed from natural but uncommon states/peak-experiences of consciousness; consciousness is not on or off, it most definitely is a continuum, as any anesthesiologist can attest. The experiences.... whatever they are... are simply other states of consciousness with universally common themes- such as Jungian archetypes, for instance. Religion is the afterbirth that is applied to these ineffable states, filtered through sensory (read 5 senses) explanations. Considering the nature of the OP, IMO, it was over the top to badger those who believe, especially with such a feeble cudgel.

Good to see you again arzunadawn

This is all well and good. No dispute that humans experience these states through out history, and in the absence of better explanations attribute it to the metaphysical

But reality exists independent of as, and is unaffected by our perception of it.

So if I understand the definition of a hallucination correctly, if one sees something that does not exist in reality one is hallucinating, and if some one expect his hallucinations to affect reality is delusional

What causes these hallucinations, can have many causes, but IMO it does not make them any less of a hallucination.

If one is experiencing something that does not exist one is hallucinating, what else can it be.

Notice, I am asking an open question. A lawyer who only wants to win, would never ask a question to which he does not know the answer,

I dont just want to win, I am really interested to know.

Also see if you have not already done so, how stimulating specific areas of the brain induces religious experiences, Google the subject, IMO very interesting.

I too am fascinated by hallucinations of all types. I have also studied shamanism, which can be equated to a toolkit used by master engineers, to tinker with consciousness and expose the wiring under the board of reality. I have nothing but the utmost respect for shamans, and vision-seekers of any religious faith. I also know people who suffer hallucinations related to clinical brain-disorders, and also extreme trauma-survivors who build an actual wall of hallucinations to block out the real visions of what actually happened. There are many forms of hallucinations. I will happily listen to them all, and I would never judge a person for having hallucinations of any type, as it is part of their life-journey and is therefor entirely real for that person.

However. When I and others have experienced visions, we are reporting a full-body experience, not only visual. More importantly, we are experiencing overwhelming sensations of love and joy. These things do not come from visual hallucinations, as might be seen after a blow to the head. If they do, it is a minor penumbral side-effect, like "that's nice" or "wow cool."

The feelings in my visions are of a homecoming. I am being welcomed home. Love surrounds me, it knocks me off my feet. I feel pulses of energy entering my abdomen at the umbilicus. Words I hear during visions are like actual physical vibrations in my abdomen, so even though they are words and have the vibration sound effect, they are felt and not heard. It is completely overwhelming, as is the sense of love which is so enormous, like the whole Universe giving me a big "welcome home" hug. I am utterly convinced that these effects are not hallucinations, they are the voice of God, welcoming another of his children home after wandering alone and lost in the underworld for so long.

to the person having the hallucination, it can be indistinguishable from reality and the belief of it could have physical manifestations .this manifestations vary depending on the associations one attributes to the hallucinations, it is not the hallucination that causes these physical changes but the belief.

Beliefs can be powerful motivators.

I have seen a hypnotist convince a subject that the pencil eraser he was placing against the subjects arm was a burning cigarette tip, the subject developed a burn welt on that area.

So if a hallucination has positive associations, one will have positive reactions or if it is a negative one, one can have negative reactions. A scary hallucination could could raise your heart rate, release, adrenaline,, and it could even kill you

Regardless of all of these it is still just a hallucination.

And there is nothing wrong if one uses hallucinations to augment reality as long as one knows it is hallucinations and not reality

That is where religion get's in to trouble, they think that hallucinations and the delusions they present is reality, and are not content with that but want to extend their delusions to others.

[lemonjelly]

I do miss the chocolate Easter eggs

Edited March 27, 2016 by lemonjelly

[DMC1]

I've noticed a load of people turning up here, taunting and insulting the Christian message and people with Christian beliefs. Notice nobody (or very few) has come here to taunt the non-believers.

What would it look like if people taunted the non-believers ? How about this ?

Oh look, if the whole thing is rubbish, well, Christians can still live their lives with a false sense of security and happiness. A delusion is a delusion, yes, but if he never 'wakes up' from that delusion, well, what is the problem ?

A religious man believes that he is going to the eternal resting home after death. This is because he believes that Jesus died on Good Friday, and rose again. Yes, salvation is based on the cross and ressurection. And so, stay happy during life, knowing (thinking) that there is an eternal home for him after death.

An atheist reckons that there is no place after death, it's all over at death. Now, if atheism is true, well, death happens to all of us, Christians will only 'realise' there is no eternal home for them after death once they've died.

And that is IF atheism is true. And what if it is not ? To all atheists, what if Jesus was put on a cross and actually did die on Good Friday, and He did rise from the dead later on ? Then what ? You might be finding out after your death.

In other words, if you're an atheist, if you're right, there's no problems for believers. But if you've got it wrong, you might/will have a problem after your physical death on earth.

I don't wish to taunt atheists and non-believers, but I'm tempted to do it when I see some of the posts here.

Believe what you will, if it makes you feel warm & fuzzy. Are you scared that when you die, if you don't 'believe' that you will be somehow punished? Punished for simply not believing in something that makes no effort to show itself to everybody in the world as a whole? What if you had been born in India, as say a Hindu?

On the subject of Jesus, as posted above there may well have been a Jesus in history, but as far as all the supernatural stuff that goes with it, that is just nonsense. Until I experience or see anything like that in my lifetime, then it will remain nonsense.

When I was younger & served in the military on operations, I was deployed in places where people of different religions were killing each other & also using religion as an excuse to carry this out. Experiencing stuff like that does make me want to 'taunt & insult' as you put it. Why didn't the 'magical being' pull us all to one side & say 'what the @@@@ are you idiots doing?'

Edited March 27, 2016 by DMC1

[Scotwight]

Al these are well and good and highly arguable, but what we are objecting is not a historical Jesus, even tho that is also in contention, but a Supernatural Jesus.

This has been the normal position for 2,000 years. Objecting to a historical Jesus or Mohammed or anyone else who had so much impact on the world is an exercise in futility. IMHO, such positions would normally be taken only by people with an emotional desire to deny history.

Of all the major historical figures I know of, even figures who lived 4,000 years ago, the only one I know of that people deny existed is Jesus.

Cheers.

http://www.godchecker.com/ And there are literally thousands of historical figures who never lived like King Arthur, Lancelot, the headless horseman and all the leprechauns, Robin Hood, William Tell, Homer, St Christopher, Prester John.

[Yunla]

to the person having the hallucination, it can be indistinguishable from reality and the belief of it could have physical manifestations .this manifestations vary depending on the associations one attributes to the hallucinations, it is not the hallucination that causes these physical changes but the belief.

Beliefs can be powerful motivators.

I have seen a hypnotist convince a subject that the pencil eraser he was placing against the subjects arm was a burning cigarette tip, the subject developed a burn welt on that area.

So if a hallucination has positive associations, one will have positive reactions or if it is a negative one, one can have negative reactions. A scary hallucination could could raise your heart rate, release, adrenaline,, and it could even kill you

Regardless of all of these it is still just a hallucination.

And there is nothing wrong if one uses hallucinations to augment reality as long as one knows it is hallucinations and not reality

That is where religion get's in to trouble, they think that hallucinations and the delusions they present is reality, and are not content with that but want to extend their delusions to others.

I am not a sugar-frosted rainbows kind of person, and in most ways I am very grounded and scientific. I come from a very "real" upbringing, a lot of physical world experiences that were nightmarish and yet completely real.

So what I'm saying is that as a person, I never expected anything from life, except more of the same hardship and suffering. And I never feared death, even the blackness of oblivion that science promises, the wormfood destiny etc. Even that seemed better to me than my early life.

So I am really not by nature riding round on unicorns and singing happy songs kind of person. But then one day, I had a vison experience which convinced me, this experience went against all of my life experiences. And it was filled with love and hope, things that I had never really seen much of before.

I feel it is futile to try and convey this in a chatbox text. The feelings of total love and joy that I experience in deep prayer, this exploding universe of sensation, the feeling that God remembers who I am and is welcoming me home, these things do not translate well into words on a computer screen!

[Trentham]

I've noticed a load of people turning up here, taunting and insulting the Christian message and people with Christian beliefs. Notice nobody (or very few) has come here to taunt the non-believers.

What would it look like if people taunted the non-believers ? How about this ?

Oh look, if the whole thing is rubbish, well, Christians can still live their lives with a false sense of security and happiness. A delusion is a delusion, yes, but if he never 'wakes up' from that delusion, well, what is the problem ?

A religious man believes that he is going to the eternal resting home after death. This is because he believes that Jesus died on Good Friday, and rose again. Yes, salvation is based on the cross and ressurection. And so, stay happy during life, knowing (thinking) that there is an eternal home for him after death.

An atheist reckons that there is no place after death, it's all over at death. Now, if atheism is true, well, death happens to all of us, Christians will only 'realise' there is no eternal home for them after death once they've died.

And that is IF atheism is true. And what if it is not ? To all atheists, what if Jesus was put on a cross and actually did die on Good Friday, and He did rise from the dead later on ? Then what ? You might be finding out after your death.

In other words, if you're an atheist, if you're right, there's no problems for believers. But if you've got it wrong, you might/will have a problem after your physical death on earth.

I don't wish to taunt atheists and non-believers, but I'm tempted to do it when I see some of the posts here.

As for taunting, what is it that Christians do when they knock on your door and tell you that you are a sinner??? What is it when evangelists scream at you that you are going to burn in hell fire because of your evil ways???

Oh give me a break.

If I wake after death to find God there condemning me for having no faith then I will remind him that he gave me the brain to figure things out for myself and if what I figured was wrong then it is his fault, not mine. I shall also tell him, before he directs me towards Hell's gate that he promised us that he is a forgiving god....... so what about it?

[DMC1]

Al these are well and good and highly arguable, but what we are objecting is not a historical Jesus, even tho that is also in contention, but a Supernatural Jesus.

This has been the normal position for 2,000 years. Objecting to a historical Jesus or Mohammed or anyone else who had so much impact on the world is an exercise in futility. IMHO, such positions would normally be taken only by people with an emotional desire to deny history.

Of all the major historical figures I know of, even figures who lived 4,000 years ago, the only one I know of that people deny existed is Jesus.

Cheers.

http://www.godchecker.com/ And there are literally thousands of historical figures who never lived like King Arthur, Lancelot, the headless horseman and all the leprechauns, Robin Hood, William Tell, Homer, St Christopher, Prester John.

Cool. Last month when I was working in Bangladesh the small Hindu village nearby had an all night 'scream fest' - no sleep for me. In the morning I asked one of the Muslim guys at work what all that was about? In a mocking way he replied 'they were praying/celebrating the God of knowledge'. Fantastic! The week before that the Muslim village were up all night screaming the Quran verses out! It's ok for them though!

[stillbornagain]

Al these are well and good and highly arguable, but what we are objecting is not a historical Jesus, even tho that is also in contention, but a Supernatural Jesus.

This has been the normal position for 2,000 years. Objecting to a historical Jesus or Mohammed or anyone else who had so much impact on the world is an exercise in futility. IMHO, such positions would normally be taken only by people with an emotional desire to deny history.

Of all the major historical figures I know of, even figures who lived 4,000 years ago, the only one I know of that people deny existed is Jesus.

Cheers.

I see you're in retreat. Earlier you claimed this: "When someone wrote that something he did was witnessed by a gathering of 5,000 people, and wrote it when those witnesses were alive, he would have been laughed out of the country if it wasn't true. That type of thing happened a number of times and never were those writings condemned.

I really think you should let up on your comments because you obviously haven't really studied any part of the history.

He really did live, he really did travel around to speak to people and sometimes it was thousands of people. He had so much impact that he started a new religion called Christianity. Scholars at the time wrote volumes about him called The New Testament. I truly have never met a scholar of any persuasion who argues that he didn't exist."

Apart from a few evangelical fanatics who insist on the absolulte inerrancy of the Bible, biblical scholars agree that the Christian Bible was not written by Jesus' contemporaries.

Now you're saying that Jesus must have existed because no one denies the existence of other major "historical" figures of the last 4000 years. This is flatly untrue. The existence of Biblical figures such as Moses and the kings of Israel has also been called into question.

And even if Jesus did exist (I have no opinion on that), your assertion that "he started a new religion called Christianity" is questionable. Yes, a new religion was started in his name. Whether that was his intent is unknown and unknowable.

[piersbeckett]

There are also written records which suggest he wasnt crucified / died or resurected, therefore there is no premise for Christianity

I could accept that the person concerned from a historical perspective being a Jewish terrorist in Romes eyes, and he may or may not have been executed for his actions against the Roman state, the rest of it, son of of god, resurection etc is all Walt Disney, fairy stories for adults

I completely respect your views and your right to hold those views.

However, they are views. Views come from all kinds of sources, written, spoken, gossip etc. Some sources also come from visions during prayer.

Scientists will admit that they know less than 10% of what happens in the human mind, they freely describe their knowledge of the human mind as "the tip of an iceberg." Scientific knowledge about mind-related visionary effects is even more sketchy. Scientists do not have explanations for the 3D Stereo dreams you have at night, or indeed the 3D Stereo memories you might have, of things that occurred 50 years ago. Science can not explain dreams or memories, these most non-contentious facts of our daily lives. So how could they possibly hope to explain religious visions?

Many sceptics have become devout Christians after having visions, in broad daylight and while completely sober. Many people have had vivid real visions of biblical scenes, depicting scenes from a book they have never read, or film versions they have never seen.

I have had visions, and I am in no way special, they are more common than many people in today's world may think. My faith is based more on my visions than on what other people have written. I believe that Satan was cast down, and the world became his kingdom. However, he envied Jesus, because Jesus was still all-powerful, and safe from harm. Jesus chose to become mortal, weak, and exposed to all the evil and harm. God and the angels were dead against this move, but Jesus was to show the world some things that will be remembered forever. He cast aside all his power, and embraced fragile mortality, in the life of a poor and humble fishing family. He was inviting all the evils of the underworld to take their best shot, which he would face with courage and humility, with nothing but cloth and ligament to protect him.

His words and actions that followed, are still the most beautiful words and actions, and they will be remembered forever. If we choose to listen to those words, is of course another matter, and is always a truly personal choice.

I completely respect your views and your right to hold those views ........... Well isn't that nice of you.

Some sources also come from visions during prayer................ Hallucinations

in broad daylight and while completely sober. Many people have had vivid real visions of biblical scenes......................... People with schizophrenia do too.

I believe that Satan was cast down.......................... wow! Delusional.

God is as real as the Easter Bunny.

Amen.

Well i suppose the upside is he didnt threaten to kill me

Interesting how the "visions" are attributed to a supernatural power, and not by a "certain chemicals" acting on parts of brain causing those visions, ie interferrence of neural pathways or messing with serotonin/ receptors

Regardless of what prophets have said they heard from supernatural beings, we are doomed IMHO to the human condition which includes keeping the wolf from the door, Boardman Robinson's cartoon, The Father and the Mother depicting war as the offspring of greed and pride, the mother nurturing pride and the father, greed above a young, enthusiastic soldier (war) and above the father and mother one might place the relatively small group representing money and power.

If there's any bearded men in the sky they'll be Darwin and Wallace. If you're tempted to read the bible, don't bother, it's sufficient to read John Milton's poems, Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained with their superior writing and rendition of what surely is the greatest 'story' ever told.

Happy Easter!

[helpisgood]

Your research is outdated. A manuscript of the the Book of 3 John was recently found which goes back to 46 A.D.

And your 59 A.D. Is a pretty far cry from 300 years after the 1st century, is it not? Doesn't that weaken your claim?

Best avoid Wikipedia for your primary research. Not even Thai university students are allowed to use that in their research. You know it's source, don't you?

Most of my information comes from academic research journals in the fields of archeology and literary criticism.

First off, I never claimed 300 years after the first century. So why are you ascribing that to me? And you said Josephus was a contemporary of Jesus. Which is false. You didn't know that? Interesting.

As for this papyrus fragment you claim to have been recently discovered, I can find no trace of any mention of it on the internet. Plenty of journals publish on the web. This would be pretty big news. In fact, huge news. So what's your source? Despite what you might think, arrogant is not the same as authoritative. Where are your sources? And please "academic research journals in the field of archaeology and literary criticism" doesn't cut it. That kind of vagueness is the mark of a bloviator. Give specifics.

As for the earliest fragment of the New Testament known to exist:

This is form Live Science dates from Feb 9, 2015: A text that may be the oldest copy of a gospel known to exist a fragment of the Gospel of Mark that was written during the first century, before the year 90 is set to be published.

At present, the oldest surviving copies of the gospel texts date to the second century (the years 101 to 200).

Josephus wasnt even born when JC was reported to have been executed..be was born some 29 years after the fact, so not a comtemporary

Josephus was born after Jesus' execution, but only a few years later.

The execution took place at about 33 CE while Josephus was born in 37 CE.

Josephus may not have been a witness to the execution, but he would have had access to primary sources and perhaps even Roman records (they were good record keepers as they needed to run a vast empire). And, since at the time of his writings he was working for the Romans and was writing for a Roman readership, I don't see why he would have any axe to grind regarding the need to prove that Jesus had existed. In fact, it is believed that Jesus' younger brother, James the Just, was the more prominent local figure during James' lifetime. (see cites below)

In Reza Aslan's book, Zealot on page 199, in what the author described as the earliest known non-Biblical reference to Jesus, Josephus writes, "James, the brother of Jesus, the one they call messiah." (written in 94 CE) James, by the way, was a well-known figure in Jerusalem and the leader of Jesus' ministry before his death in 62 CE. (Ibid., p.198-200) So, Josephus' contemporaries accepted Jesus' existence as a founder of a new movement.

What Jesus exactly did and say is a matter of some conjecture.

Here's a more detailed timeline of Josephus' life:

http://www.josephus.org/joschron.htm

[lostboy]

How can they retrace his steps when their is no proof he ever existed. Easter Sunday has to be the Greatest story ever told

There is plenty of proof that he existed, in multiple written records made at that time. Non-believers simply don't accept that he was anything more than an ordinary man. I've never heard any truly educated person attempt to debate whether he existed. There were thousands and thousands of people who witnessed him and that is in the records too.

Cheers.

Existing as a person and existing as a Deity are entirely different matters. There are contemporaneous writings the support the idea of his existence as a person but the promotional material that promotes the idea of him as a God is not contemporaneous and is highly politically influenced by the attempts to manage the internal schisms of the Roman Church in the early stages of the development of that institution. Most truly educated people that have a grounding in this subject matter beyond the Sunday School fairy tales would and do agree on this. Religiously indoctrinated people are another matter.

[arjunadawn]

Posts remove to reply: Hello Sirineou

Humans have variously had these experiences throughout history- mystical, pre-dream/post-awake, body alseep/mind awake states, hypnagogic, transcendental. What shared state we access I do not know but the commonality is indisputable; its the entire premise of some very brilliant minds, such as Jung for one. What then happens over the ages is various efforts to explain or rationalize the experiences are filtered through local conventions, archetypes, myths, elder's narrative, creation cosmology, etc. These then become the exegesis of the experiences= religions, mysticism.The explanations (religions) that apply themselves to the practical as well, with social laws and conventions, written testimony, injunctions, a "code," survive the ages. If the narrative applied to these mystical/peak experiences answer the core questions of local peoples, the religion survives. If the religion that overlays the core experiences is open to syncretism and can adapt and change, the religion can proselytize and grow. The religion may finally become a fantastical overlay but the core experiences that humans have that gave rise to religions most certainly exist; they are common experiences and a growing body of research confirms these states.

If we accept that the core experiences that found religion and shamanism, etc, are hallucinations, schizophrenia, or delusional, we must then come up with descriptions for these pathological states from the DSM-V or in the case of delusional, agreement on baseline reality. Religions are formed from natural but uncommon states/peak-experiences of consciousness; consciousness is not on or off, it most definitely is a continuum, as any anesthesiologist can attest. The experiences.... whatever they are... are simply other states of consciousness with universally common themes- such as Jungian archetypes, for instance. Religion is the afterbirth that is applied to these ineffable states, filtered through sensory (read 5 senses) explanations. Considering the nature of the OP, IMO, it was over the top to badger those who believe, especially with such a feeble cudgel.

Good to see you again arzunadawn

This is all well and good. No dispute that humans experience these states through out history, and in the absence of better explanations attribute it to the metaphysical

But reality exists independent of as, and is unaffected by our perception of it.

So if I understand the definition of a hallucination correctly, if one sees something that does not exist in reality one is hallucinating, and if some one expect his hallucinations to affect reality is delusional

What causes these hallucinations, can have many causes, but IMO it does not make them any less of a hallucination.

If one is experiencing something that does not exist one is hallucinating, what else can it be.

Notice, I am asking an open question. A lawyer who only wants to win, would never ask a question to which he does not know the answer,

I dont just want to win, I am really interested to know.

Also see if you have not already done so, how stimulating specific areas of the brain induces religious experiences, Google the subject, IMO very interesting.

I too am fascinated by hallucinations of all types. I have also studied shamanism, which can be equated to a toolkit used by master engineers, to tinker with consciousness and expose the wiring under the board of reality. I have nothing but the utmost respect for shamans, and vision-seekers of any religious faith. I also know people who suffer hallucinations related to clinical brain-disorders, and also extreme trauma-survivors who build an actual wall of hallucinations to block out the real visions of what actually happened. There are many forms of hallucinations. I will happily listen to them all, and I would never judge a person for having hallucinations of any type, as it is part of their life-journey and is therefor entirely real for that person.

However. When I and others have experienced visions, we are reporting a full-body experience, not only visual. More importantly, we are experiencing overwhelming sensations of love and joy. These things do not come from visual hallucinations, as might be seen after a blow to the head. If they do, it is a minor penumbral side-effect, like "that's nice" or "wow cool."

The feelings in my visions are of a homecoming. I am being welcomed home. Love surrounds me, it knocks me off my feet. I feel pulses of energy entering my abdomen at the umbilicus. Words I hear during visions are like actual physical vibrations in my abdomen, so even though they are words and have the vibration sound effect, they are felt and not heard. It is completely overwhelming, as is the sense of love which is so enormous, like the whole Universe giving me a big "welcome home" hug. I am utterly convinced that these effects are not hallucinations, they are the voice of God, welcoming another of his children home after wandering alone and lost in the underworld for so long.

to the person having the hallucination, it can be indistinguishable from reality and the belief of it could have physical manifestations .this manifestations vary depending on the associations one attributes to the hallucinations, it is not the hallucination that causes these physical changes but the belief.

Beliefs can be powerful motivators.

I have seen a hypnotist convince a subject that the pencil eraser he was placing against the subjects arm was a burning cigarette tip, the subject developed a burn welt on that area.

So if a hallucination has positive associations, one will have positive reactions or if it is a negative one, one can have negative reactions. A scary hallucination could could raise your heart rate, release, adrenaline,, and it could even kill you

Regardless of all of these it is still just a hallucination.

And there is nothing wrong if one uses hallucinations to augment reality as long as one knows it is hallucinations and not reality

That is where religion get's in to trouble, they think that hallucinations and the delusions they present is reality, and are not content with that but want to extend their delusions to others.

My conclusions are based on my own experiences, but I have had one recently which reinforces the point I am making. Hallucinations, etc. The 'visions' or experiences at the heart of these experiences are not projected into the 'reality' rather they are superimposed. They are at once known not to be the waking world and also not to be the dreaming world. Thus, they call them visions or some deity presence. So, with this as a long ago background suspicion, two months ago I lay to sleep. As I lay there I was aware I was in the typical hypnagogic state. It is that wonderful bridge time before sleep and after awake where the body and mind feel really nice. The body is asleep but the mind is awake. This is not the lucid dreaming zone.

I was aware of something dark, evil, and even demonic in the room, in the corner; specifically just outside my eye sight (but my eyes were closed). Imagination? But I was not asleep. I realized I did not believe in demons or devils or religions and had no belief that unseen things could harm me. I must be dreaming. It must be lucid dreaming. I wished it away with a mental wave of my hand but nothing happened. I was not dreaming, i realized then. Moments later I struggled to awaken my body still reeling from the sense of evil, of... something. I do not believe in "others." What happened?

For starters, look to the "ominous numinous." Rather than race to superstition I turned to research. Apparently, in this one example, as the body goes to sleep it is turned off not to injure in acting out dreams. When the body is asleep before the mind is fully induced it can trigger a primal hypervigilant alarm that actually supposed a threat of something is present when it is not. Its just an alarm going off. Many people have actually filled in the spaces of this experience from their inventory of memory or cultural teachings and arise later having been visited by god, the devil, a demon, a young girl, etc. These experiences are not otherworldly. They are not hallucinations. I can establish that alternative experiences of reality can take place that are not waking hallucinations. There are also multiple other angles to offer that the human condition has a brain that is in essence tuned to only one frequency. A kingdom of god and religion is not on one of these frequencies, nor is hallucination (a pathological superimposition of visual or audio projections). I believe if one reads the attached link they will at least have an expanded understanding of coexisting states of consciousness. http://www.ovni.ch/temoign/images/paralysie-sommeil.pdf

Its so curious that multiple people would be interested in whether the foundations of such an OP were hallucinatory or not. Even if they were, this does not mean the perseveres are abnormal. If all the peoples in the world with religious experiences were deemed to have "hallucinations" we would have to then ask why? Is this an alternate means of communication? I believe they are not hallucinations, in most cases. Instead of an interest in wake state experiences I am more confined to those experiences people have when relaxed at home, in bed, etc. Others, like the following OP, believe "felt presence" of others may will be a neuronal projection, hallucination. http://www.dreamscience.ca/en/documents/publications/_2007_Nielsen_Reprint_CC_16_975-983_felt-presence-commentary.pdf

In any event, it is arrogant to tell another he/she does not see (but that [you] know), and has a pathology, only because the speaker does not see the way [you] do. If Christians wish to believe, let them. Remember the results when Plato's character ran back in the cave and told everyone they were viewing only shadows of reality; he was run off. No one listened.

Edited March 27, 2016 by arjunadawn

[lostboy]

My conclusions are based on my own experiences, but I have had one recently which reinforces the point I am making. Hallucinations, etc. The 'visions' or experiences at the heart of these experiences are not projected into the 'reality' rather they are superimposed. They are at once known not to be the waking world and also not to be the dreaming world. Thus, they call them visions or some deity presence. So, with this as a long ago background suspicion, two months ago I lay to sleep. As I lay there I was aware I was in the typical hypnagogic state. It is that wonderful bridge time before sleep and after awake where the body and mind feel really nice. The body is asleep but the mind is awake. This is not the lucid dreaming zone.

I was aware of something dark, evil, and even demonic in the room, in the corner; specifically just outside my eye sight (but my eyes were closed). Imagination? But I was not asleep. I realized I did not believe in demons or devils or religions and had no belief that unseen things could harm me. I must be dreaming. It must be lucid dreaming. I wished it away with a mental wave of my hand but nothing happened. I was not dreaming, i realized then. Moments later I struggled to awaken my body still reeling from the sense of evil, of... something. I do not believe in "others." What happened?

For starters, look to the "ominous numinous." Rather than race to superstition I turned to research. Apparently, in this one example, as the body goes to sleep it is turned off not to injure in acting out dreams. When the body is asleep before the mind is fully induced it can trigger a primal hypervigilant alarm that actually supposed a threat of something is present when it is not. Its just an alarm going off. Many people have actually filled in the spaces of this experience from their inventory of memory or cultural teachings and arise later having been visited by god, the devil, a demon, a young girl, etc. These experiences are not otherworldly. They are not hallucinations. I can establish that alternative experiences of reality can take place that are not waking hallucinations. There are also multiple other angles to offer that the human condition has a brain that is in essence tuned to only one frequency. A kingdom of god and religion is not on one of these frequencies, nor is hallucination (a pathological superimposition of visual or audio projections). I believe if one reads the attached link they will at least have an expanded understanding of coexisting states of consciousness. http://www.ovni.ch/temoign/images/paralysie-sommeil.pdf

Its so curious that multiple people would be interested in whether the foundations of such an OP were hallucinatory or not. Even if they were, this does not mean the perseveres are abnormal. If all the peoples in the world with religious experiences were deemed to have "hallucinations" we would have to then ask why? Is this an alternate means of communication? I believe they are not hallucinations, in most cases. Instead of an interest in wake state experiences I am more confined to those experiences people have when relaxed at home, in bed, etc. Others, like the following OP, believe "felt presence" of others may will be a neuronal projection, hallucination. http://www.dreamscience.ca/en/documents/publications/_2007_Nielsen_Reprint_CC_16_975-983_felt-presence-commentary.pdf

In any event, it is arrogant to tell another he/she does not see (but that [you] know), and has a pathology, only because the speaker does not see the way [you] do. If Christians wish to believe, let them. Remember the results when Plato's character ran back in the cave and told everyone they were viewing only shadows of reality; he was run off. No one listened.

Read up on Ergot Poisoning and the potential impact of this in the medieval period. It may well be that the whole reformation was inspired by hallucinogenic poisoning depending on what Martin Luther ate for breakfast the morning he went to the local Cathedral to nail his 90 odd (I forget) thesis to the door.

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/BOT135/LECT12.HTM

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1037.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot

Edited March 27, 2016 by lostboy

[sirineou]

Good to see you again arzunadawn

This is all well and good. No dispute that humans experience these states through out history, and in the absence of better explanations attribute it to the metaphysical

But reality exists independent of as, and is unaffected by our perception of it.

So if I understand the definition of a hallucination correctly, if one sees something that does not exist in reality one is hallucinating, and if some one expect his hallucinations to affect reality is delusional

What causes these hallucinations, can have many causes, but IMO it does not make them any less of a hallucination.

If one is experiencing something that does not exist one is hallucinating, what else can it be.

Notice, I am asking an open question. A lawyer who only wants to win, would never ask a question to which he does not know the answer,

I dont just want to win, I am really interested to know.

Also see if you have not already done so, how stimulating specific areas of the brain induces religious experiences, Google the subject, IMO very interesting.

I too am fascinated by hallucinations of all types. I have also studied shamanism, which can be equated to a toolkit used by master engineers, to tinker with consciousness and expose the wiring under the board of reality. I have nothing but the utmost respect for shamans, and vision-seekers of any religious faith. I also know people who suffer hallucinations related to clinical brain-disorders, and also extreme trauma-survivors who build an actual wall of hallucinations to block out the real visions of what actually happened. There are many forms of hallucinations. I will happily listen to them all, and I would never judge a person for having hallucinations of any type, as it is part of their life-journey and is therefor entirely real for that person.

However. When I and others have experienced visions, we are reporting a full-body experience, not only visual. More importantly, we are experiencing overwhelming sensations of love and joy. These things do not come from visual hallucinations, as might be seen after a blow to the head. If they do, it is a minor penumbral side-effect, like "that's nice" or "wow cool."

The feelings in my visions are of a homecoming. I am being welcomed home. Love surrounds me, it knocks me off my feet. I feel pulses of energy entering my abdomen at the umbilicus. Words I hear during visions are like actual physical vibrations in my abdomen, so even though they are words and have the vibration sound effect, they are felt and not heard. It is completely overwhelming, as is the sense of love which is so enormous, like the whole Universe giving me a big "welcome home" hug. I am utterly convinced that these effects are not hallucinations, they are the voice of God, welcoming another of his children home after wandering alone and lost in the underworld for so long.

to the person having the hallucination, it can be indistinguishable from reality and the belief of it could have physical manifestations .this manifestations vary depending on the associations one attributes to the hallucinations, it is not the hallucination that causes these physical changes but the belief.

Beliefs can be powerful motivators.

I have seen a hypnotist convince a subject that the pencil eraser he was placing against the subjects arm was a burning cigarette tip, the subject developed a burn welt on that area.

So if a hallucination has positive associations, one will have positive reactions or if it is a negative one, one can have negative reactions. A scary hallucination could could raise your heart rate, release, adrenaline,, and it could even kill you

Regardless of all of these it is still just a hallucination.

And there is nothing wrong if one uses hallucinations to augment reality as long as one knows it is hallucinations and not reality

That is where religion get's in to trouble, they think that hallucinations and the delusions they present is reality, and are not content with that but want to extend their delusions to others.

My conclusions are based on my own experiences, but I have had one recently which reinforces the point I am making. Hallucinations, etc. The 'visions' or experiences at the heart of these experiences are not projected into the 'reality' rather they are superimposed. They are at once known not to be the waking world and also not to be the dreaming world. Thus, they call them visions or some deity presence. So, with this as a long ago background suspicion, two months ago I lay to sleep. As I lay there I was aware I was in the typical hypnagogic state. It is that wonderful bridge time before sleep and after awake where the body and mind feel really nice. The body is asleep but the mind is awake. This is not the lucid dreaming zone.

I was aware of something dark, evil, and even demonic in the room, in the corner; specifically just outside my eye sight (but my eyes were closed). Imagination? But I was not asleep. I realized I did not believe in demons or devils or religions and had no belief that unseen things could harm me. I must be dreaming. It must be lucid dreaming. I wished it away with a mental wave of my hand but nothing happened. I was not dreaming, i realized then. Moments later I struggled to awaken my body still reeling from the sense of evil, of... something. I do not believe in "others." What happened?

For starters, look to the "ominous numinous." Rather than race to superstition I turned to research. Apparently, in this one example, as the body goes to sleep it is turned off not to injure in acting out dreams. When the body is asleep before the mind is fully induced it can trigger a primal hypervigilant alarm that actually supposed a threat of something is present when it is not. Its just an alarm going off. Many people have actually filled in the spaces of this experience from their inventory of memory or cultural teachings and arise later having been visited by god, the devil, a demon, a young girl, etc. These experiences are not otherworldly. They are not hallucinations. I can establish that alternative experiences of reality can take place that are not waking hallucinations. There are also multiple other angles to offer that the human condition has a brain that is in essence tuned to only one frequency. A kingdom of god and religion is not on one of these frequencies, nor is hallucination (a pathological superimposition of visual or audio projections). I believe if one reads the attached link they will at least have an expanded understanding of coexisting states of consciousness. http://www.ovni.ch/temoign/images/paralysie-sommeil.pdf

Its so curious that multiple people would be interested in whether the foundations of such an OP were hallucinatory or not. Even if they were, this does not mean the perseveres are abnormal. If all the peoples in the world with religious experiences were deemed to have "hallucinations" we would have to then ask why? Is this an alternate means of communication? I believe they are not hallucinations, in most cases. Instead of an interest in wake state experiences I am more confined to those experiences people have when relaxed at home, in bed, etc. Others, like the following OP, believe "felt presence" of others may will be a neuronal projection, hallucination. http://www.dreamscience.ca/en/documents/publications/_2007_Nielsen_Reprint_CC_16_975-983_felt-presence-commentary.pdf

In any event, it is arrogant to tell another he/she does not see (but that [you] know), and has a pathology, only because the speaker does not see the way [you] do. If Christians wish to believe, let them. Remember the results when Plato's character ran back in the cave and told everyone they were viewing only shadows of reality; he was run off. No one listened.

I believe we are in agreement and what we argue is semantics.

hal·lu·ci·na·tion

həˌlo͞osəˈnāSH(ə)n/

noun

1. an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present.

   You mention your dreaming while you were not fully asleep and the feeling of evil,

   not a rare experience, we all had similar experiences

   Yet even though you perceived an evil presence one was not present so according to the above .definition of hallucinations

   you were hallucinating.,

   You being an intelligent educated person , tough you might want to call it something else,(a rose by any other name...) realized what it was, gained what ever benefit from the experience, and moved on

   Unfortunately, others went out, wrote apocalyptic books, and proceed to warn others , gained a following, and proceeded to butcher people such as you, who said, Dude you were dreaming.

   So dream all you want, experience the universe hugging you and welcoming you in, as some one else said, but please please

   don't kill me.. for me reality is plenty entertaining

   PS: I use the word "you " rhetorically and I do not mean you personally

Edited March 27, 2016 by sirineou

[simple1]

I am not a sugar-frosted rainbows kind of person, and in most ways I am very grounded and scientific. I come from a very "real" upbringing, a lot of physical world experiences that were nightmarish and yet completely real.

So what I'm saying is that as a person, I never expected anything from life, except more of the same hardship and suffering. And I never feared death, even the blackness of oblivion that science promises, the wormfood destiny etc. Even that seemed better to me than my early life.

So I am really not by nature riding round on unicorns and singing happy songs kind of person. But then one day, I had a vison experience which convinced me, this experience went against all of my life experiences. And it was filled with love and hope, things that I had never really seen much of before.

I feel it is futile to try and convey this in a chatbox text. The feelings of total love and joy that I experience in deep prayer, this exploding universe of sensation, the feeling that God remembers who I am and is welcoming me home, these things do not translate well into words on a computer screen!

I too had an 'out of the blue' spiritual experience and went on to have the delight of further knowledge through 'light', The difference to you being that I went on to immerse in the Upanishads and eventually a discipline of Vedanta. The experiences you talk to of immersion in love and beauty are regrettably, for reasons I do not comprehend, not universally shared.

[arjunadawn]

I too am fascinated by hallucinations of all types. I have also studied shamanism, which can be equated to a toolkit used by master engineers, to tinker with consciousness and expose the wiring under the board of reality. I have nothing but the utmost respect for shamans, and vision-seekers of any religious faith. I also know people who suffer hallucinations related to clinical brain-disorders, and also extreme trauma-survivors who build an actual wall of hallucinations to block out the real visions of what actually happened. There are many forms of hallucinations. I will happily listen to them all, and I would never judge a person for having hallucinations of any type, as it is part of their life-journey and is therefor entirely real for that person.

However. When I and others have experienced visions, we are reporting a full-body experience, not only visual. More importantly, we are experiencing overwhelming sensations of love and joy. These things do not come from visual hallucinations, as might be seen after a blow to the head. If they do, it is a minor penumbral side-effect, like "that's nice" or "wow cool."

The feelings in my visions are of a homecoming. I am being welcomed home. Love surrounds me, it knocks me off my feet. I feel pulses of energy entering my abdomen at the umbilicus. Words I hear during visions are like actual physical vibrations in my abdomen, so even though they are words and have the vibration sound effect, they are felt and not heard. It is completely overwhelming, as is the sense of love which is so enormous, like the whole Universe giving me a big "welcome home" hug. I am utterly convinced that these effects are not hallucinations, they are the voice of God, welcoming another of his children home after wandering alone and lost in the underworld for so long.

to the person having the hallucination, it can be indistinguishable from reality and the belief of it could have physical manifestations .this manifestations vary depending on the associations one attributes to the hallucinations, it is not the hallucination that causes these physical changes but the belief.

Beliefs can be powerful motivators.

I have seen a hypnotist convince a subject that the pencil eraser he was placing against the subjects arm was a burning cigarette tip, the subject developed a burn welt on that area.

So if a hallucination has positive associations, one will have positive reactions or if it is a negative one, one can have negative reactions. A scary hallucination could could raise your heart rate, release, adrenaline,, and it could even kill you

Regardless of all of these it is still just a hallucination.

And there is nothing wrong if one uses hallucinations to augment reality as long as one knows it is hallucinations and not reality

That is where religion get's in to trouble, they think that hallucinations and the delusions they present is reality, and are not content with that but want to extend their delusions to others.

My conclusions are based on my own experiences, but I have had one recently which reinforces the point I am making. Hallucinations, etc. The 'visions' or experiences at the heart of these experiences are not projected into the 'reality' rather they are superimposed. They are at once known not to be the waking world and also not to be the dreaming world. Thus, they call them visions or some deity presence. So, with this as a long ago background suspicion, two months ago I lay to sleep. As I lay there I was aware I was in the typical hypnagogic state. It is that wonderful bridge time before sleep and after awake where the body and mind feel really nice. The body is asleep but the mind is awake. This is not the lucid dreaming zone.

I was aware of something dark, evil, and even demonic in the room, in the corner; specifically just outside my eye sight (but my eyes were closed). Imagination? But I was not asleep. I realized I did not believe in demons or devils or religions and had no belief that unseen things could harm me. I must be dreaming. It must be lucid dreaming. I wished it away with a mental wave of my hand but nothing happened. I was not dreaming, i realized then. Moments later I struggled to awaken my body still reeling from the sense of evil, of... something. I do not believe in "others." What happened?

For starters, look to the "ominous numinous." Rather than race to superstition I turned to research. Apparently, in this one example, as the body goes to sleep it is turned off not to injure in acting out dreams. When the body is asleep before the mind is fully induced it can trigger a primal hypervigilant alarm that actually supposed a threat of something is present when it is not. Its just an alarm going off. Many people have actually filled in the spaces of this experience from their inventory of memory or cultural teachings and arise later having been visited by god, the devil, a demon, a young girl, etc. These experiences are not otherworldly. They are not hallucinations. I can establish that alternative experiences of reality can take place that are not waking hallucinations. There are also multiple other angles to offer that the human condition has a brain that is in essence tuned to only one frequency. A kingdom of god and religion is not on one of these frequencies, nor is hallucination (a pathological superimposition of visual or audio projections). I believe if one reads the attached link they will at least have an expanded understanding of coexisting states of consciousness. http://www.ovni.ch/temoign/images/paralysie-sommeil.pdf

Its so curious that multiple people would be interested in whether the foundations of such an OP were hallucinatory or not. Even if they were, this does not mean the perseveres are abnormal. If all the peoples in the world with religious experiences were deemed to have "hallucinations" we would have to then ask why? Is this an alternate means of communication? I believe they are not hallucinations, in most cases. Instead of an interest in wake state experiences I am more confined to those experiences people have when relaxed at home, in bed, etc. Others, like the following OP, believe "felt presence" of others may will be a neuronal projection, hallucination. http://www.dreamscience.ca/en/documents/publications/_2007_Nielsen_Reprint_CC_16_975-983_felt-presence-commentary.pdf

In any event, it is arrogant to tell another he/she does not see (but that [you] know), and has a pathology, only because the speaker does not see the way [you] do. If Christians wish to believe, let them. Remember the results when Plato's character ran back in the cave and told everyone they were viewing only shadows of reality; he was run off. No one listened.

I believe we are in agreement and what we argue is semantics.

hal·lu·ci·na·tion

həˌlo͞osəˈnāSH(ə)n/

noun

1. an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present.

   You mention your dreaming while you were not fully asleep and the feeling of evil,

   not a rare experience, we all had similar experiences

   Yet even though you perceived an evil presence one was not present so according to the above .definition of hallucinations

   you were hallucinating.,

   You being an intelligent educated person , tough you might want to call it something else,(a rose by any other name...) realized what it was, gained what ever benefit from the experience, and moved on

   Unfortunately, others went out, wrote apocalyptic books, and proceed to warn others , gained a following, and proceeded to butcher people such as you, who said, Dude you were dreaming.

   So dream all you want, experience the universe hugging you and welcoming you in, as some one else said, but please please

   don't kill me.. for me reality is plenty entertaining

   PS: I use the word "you " rhetorically and I do not mean you personally

I do not disagree with you. At this point I am defending a perspective which I am pretty sure blends with the point you make; to me. Perhaps I would only conclude by saying some with religious type experiences may very well be hallucinating from a diagnostic POV, but most are simply experiencing common elements of consciousness for which the sensory tools fail to apprehend. In the absence of these reliable and friendly tools, fantasy and fable conspire to shape otherwise natural human experiences in consciousness into elaborate cosmologies- religion.

BTW, hallucinations exist relative to an awake state where sensory tools can be actioned. However, the alternative to the awake state is simply not the asleep state, as assumed for ages. There are degrees of states of consciousness for which human sensory tools fail- they were never intended for that purpose. Re-purposed, they fail miserably and mythical archetypes and religion are the result. I believe these other aspects of consciousness are natural and for lack of a better analogy, the mind can variously tune in like a receiver.

I think the mod has been kind enough to allow me off the grid enough here so I will avoid going any further Down "The Rabbit Hole."

[sirineou]

Ok , so getting back at the subject at hand which is "

Thousands trace Jesus' footsteps on Good Friday in Jerusalem

Putting aside the religious objections and debates, for many there is a cultural element to religion. Religion has manged to insert it's self with in ones culture, that one find it difficult to reject religion and function with in ones culture.

I think most Christians are cultural Christians rather than religious Christians.

I was born in to the Greek Orthodox religion, the culture involved is simply beautiful. especially Easter. It is a week long celebration starting with Lent on Monday increasing progressive through the week, on Friday night children and women go to their church and decorate the Epitafios with flowers

I have not for a few years but hope to do it again soon, but we celebrate Easter at my brothers summer home in the Peloponnese , The Epitafios is carried through the village streets everybody carrying candles, the streets smelling of spring Jasmine, and ends at the village cemetery where we place flowers and candles at our parents and other loved ones graves.

Saturday is spend coloring and decorating Easter eggs,and every one chooses their personal egg for the later egg wars. At night is the Anastasy (resurrection) everyone goes to church, with Unlighted candles, at 12 am the priest announces Christos Anesty (Christ has risen ) and brings out the holy fire that perpetually burns in Jerusalem and has not gone out for close to two thousand years. Every one lights their candles with it, and the kids light fireworks, and we all bring the holy fire home and with the smoke from it, thy paint a cross on the head of the door jam. and eat a special Easter night soup consisting of livers and entrails, By that time after a week long lent you are so hungry that anything tastes good. and every one

knocks each other personal eggs that I mention earlier, together, usually one brakes and the other one is eaten, until only one survives,

The winner is supposed to enjoy good luck for the year.

Then there is Glorious Easter Sunday. Everyone roasts the Easter lam

with many side dishes, plenty of Ouzo, dancing, and music.

Now I think it is time for me to Mention that I am an Atheist, and I suspect many joining me in these celebrations are also,

I know of a confirmed Zoroastrian, which Religion I believe the holy fire custom started,

So I think one needs to be able to separate the cultural aspect of some of these celebrations from the Religious.

[up2u2]

Looks like a good time had by all sirineou.

[arjunadawn]

Religious and/or culturally religious... What an excellent observation.

[Andaman Al]

Al these are well and good and highly arguable, but what we are objecting is not a historical Jesus, even tho that is also in contention, but a Supernatural Jesus.

This has been the normal position for 2,000 years. Objecting to a historical Jesus or Mohammed or anyone else who had so much impact on the world is an exercise in futility. IMHO, such positions would normally be taken only by people with an emotional desire to deny history.

Of all the major historical figures I know of, even figures who lived 4,000 years ago, the only one I know of that people deny existed is Jesus.

Cheers.

Hmmmm maybe a coincidence but he is the only one whom people claim was the son of God, born of a virgin birth ? and died to save all our sins! Now imagine you are God, you think ' I need to forgive all the people their sins, so instead of just saying I will forgive all your sins (because I can because I am God), I am going to subject my only son to the most horrendous torture devisable and kill him slowly and painfully, when after all apart from tipping a few tables over he has been a pretty good lad really.'

This isn't really a nice God is it? An intelligent loving God would have said 'right I will forgive you all your sins providing you accept my thoroughly nice son as your King and he can spend his life sorting you all out and leading by example, and maybe give me a few holy grandchildren' But nope, torture him, mutilate him and kill him slowly, and we even say Jesus sacrificed himself, well to be honest he didn't have much choice in it really did he? The Romans on one side that were going to make sure he got some and his Old Man on the other side incase the Romans slipped up.

Any intelligent logical person would see that this is a 'story' that was written at a time when people spoke in metaphor, and the story was designed to convey certain messages and lessons. Just like the parables teach a certain message, the Bible was itself a parable. BUT do us a favour, if you believe the story, remember you cannot pick and choose. So if one part of that story is true then so is the earth in 6 days, parting of the red sea etc etc. Funny how God for over 3 thousand years has never bothered to show any of these incredible tricks that would have us all believing in him in a heart beat.

If you look through the right eyes, the world and nature is a truly incredible and spiritual place, and you can see it and feel it and touch it. No need to make things up really is there? It was after all done to bestow untold power and wealth on the elites (and the wannabe elites).

[Linzz]

There are also written records which suggest he wasnt crucified / died or resurected, therefore there is no premise for Christianity

I could accept that the person concerned from a historical perspective being a Jewish terrorist in Romes eyes, and he may or may not have been executed for his actions against the Roman state, the rest of it, son of of god, resurection etc is all Walt Disney, fairy stories for adults

I completely respect your views and your right to hold those views.

However, they are views. Views come from all kinds of sources, written, spoken, gossip etc. Some sources also come from visions during prayer.

Scientists will admit that they know less than 10% of what happens in the human mind, they freely describe their knowledge of the human mind as "the tip of an iceberg." Scientific knowledge about mind-related visionary effects is even more sketchy. Scientists do not have explanations for the 3D Stereo dreams you have at night, or indeed the 3D Stereo memories you might have, of things that occurred 50 years ago. Science can not explain dreams or memories, these most non-contentious facts of our daily lives. So how could they possibly hope to explain religious visions?

Many sceptics have become devout Christians after having visions, in broad daylight and while completely sober. Many people have had vivid real visions of Biblical scenes, depicting scenes from a book they have never read, or film versions they have never seen.

I have had visions, and I am in no way special, they are more common than many people in today's world may think. My faith is based more on my visions than on what other people have written. I believe that Satan was cast down, and the world became his kingdom. However, he envied Jesus, because Jesus was still all-powerful, and safe from harm. Jesus chose to become mortal, weak, and exposed to all the evil and harm. God and the angels were dead against this move, but Jesus was to show the world some things that will be remembered forever. He cast aside all his power, and embraced fragile mortality, in the life of a poor and humble fishing family. He was inviting all the evils of the underworld to take their best shot, which he would face with courage and humility, with nothing but cloth and ligament to protect him.

His words and actions that followed, are still the most beautiful words and actions, and they will be remembered forever. If we choose to listen to those words, is of course another matter, and is always a truly personal choice.

"God and the angels were dead against this move"

Really? Well if you want to be orthodox what did Jesus mean when he, according to scripture, said in his prior agony in the garden, "Father, if possible take this cup away from me, but not my will, but your's be done" I take that to mean an almost unwilling participant but at the same time a very human response. If Christianity is founded on the divine plan of reconciliation of mankind to God, then Jesus was willing pawn in a master plan and on the cross said "Father, why have you forsaken me?" As part of that punishment was an experience of abandonment and separation. This is the story of despair transformed into hope which is the basis of the faith.

While some of your opinion conforms, much of it is a completely different take on traditional belief.

I have to admit while all adherents of most religions share similar desires to connect with something greater than themselves, the sight of a limp and flagellated and thereby inglorious and powerless Christ as opposed to a huge and glorious golden statue of Buddha is a great irony and an interesting consideration in the fact that Christianity despite it's many flaws became the largest religion in the world.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Linzz

[Linzz]

So are we all in agreement that the first written texts were 200 years after the fact? 200 years of stories told to the next person. Really.

Give me 10 minutes and 10 people and I'll speak into the ear of the first (we all know the outcome)

Time to take a break and listen to Lennon's Imagine

Except you're forgetting the huge body of dedicated scholars called scribes (related words script, scripture) whose occupation was to transcribe and copy scripture without altering "one jot or tittle" for hundreds of years within the Judaic tradition and similarly the body of dedicated scholars who carried on with that tradition with the new testament also. There was cross checking and punishment for alterations too.Why? Because they wanted never to alter what they believed was God's words, e.g. the 10 commandments.

Not perfect by any means but a far cry from "speaking in the ears of 10 people"

Edited March 29, 2016 by Linzz

[NeverSure]

So are we all in agreement that the first written texts were 200 years after the fact? 200 years of stories told to the next person. Really.

Give me 10 minutes and 10 people and I'll speak into the ear of the first (we all know the outcome)

Time to take a break and listen to Lennon's Imagine

Actually, I think perhaps you're forgetting the Old Testament which pre-dated Jesus but which talked about his future coming multiple times. The prophets as the writers are called pinned down where and how he would be born and what would happen. These were Jews who proclaimed that he would be the son of God. They put the mantle of God on him long before he was born.

The rub came when the Jews didn't accept this Jesus as the one who had been foretold with such detail.

The question to ask yourself is "Why did the Romans, backed by the Jewish priests, execute Jesus at all? What was his crime?" The Jewish scholars knew what the Old Testament had predicted and they knew exactly what this "Messiah" would be. He would be God himself dwelling in a man.

They crucified Jesus for blasphemy - for claiming to be the Messiah and therefore God. I'll give you just one quote from The Old Testament, Isaiah, Chapter 9 v. 6:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Cheers.

[Linzz]

Isn't it grand that we can have loaded discussions about Christianity without risking getting our heads chopped off!

Personally, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe as long as you don't impose your dogma on others.

Personally I do not care either. An earlier poster says I resort to snide sarcasm. That is true. I confess to my sin ha ha. I hope now that I am forgiven. I believe that way back when we were crawling out of the trees and were totally confounded by in-explainable phenomena such as earthquakes, lightning and thunder, eclipses etc. some men found a way to use those things to their advantage by claiming to control them and threaten people with them. People believed in a supernatural answer to these phenomena because there was no other answer. Thus was born religion.

If Jesus as the son of God is true then ask yourselves why did not God also send a saviour to the Eskimos, the Australian aborigines, the primitive tribes in the north of Europe and South America and so on? Why was it only to the Jews in the Middle East?

As was mentioned earlier, the Catholic Church basically invented Christianity. Christianity is only based upon what the bible tells us and earlier posters have already shown that to be unreliable. However the church has plowed on with its invention and invented Purgatory, sainthood, the ability to pray to Mary and the saints, holy water and countless other rites and sacraments that are nowhere mentioned by Jesus.

The Catholics claim the infallibility of the Pope and his leadership ordained by the laying on of hands passed down since the apostle Peter first, was supposed do do it. But has not that continuity of line been broken by many of the popes who were in no way holy, killing people, fathering children, starting wars and on and on.

Now we have countless Christian religions and sects who all claim to be the right one in their interpretations of the bible. We have the church leaders guilty of the horrific abuse of children in their care and it is vast and widespread and has been going on for centuries.

SO call me snide and sarcastic. If I could have my way with the church I would be much worse than that. However I know that I fight a losing battle because humanity's fear of death is such a powerful psychological driver to a belief in something more than the empty void that awaits us after death.

Just don't try and ram the sh.t down my throat and forgive me if I am angry about all the horror, evil and crime the church is responsible for committing.

"If Jesus as the son of God is true then ask yourselves why did not God also send a saviour to the Eskimos, the Australian aborigines, the primitive tribes in the north of Europe and South America and so on? Why was it only to the Jews in the Middle East?"

If you hadn't noticed, Christianity became worldwide the largest religion, so I take it the ME was perfect at that time for that to happen and therefore includes every peoples including those you mention

"forgive me if I am angry about all the horror, evil and crime the church is responsible for committing"

​Of course, but if God is true and just then I expect him to be a lot more angry than you could be capable of

[Linzz]

That which appears ridiculous is open to ridicule.

Out brains are susceptible to erroneous conclusions, something that neuroscientist Dr Dean Burnett explains in his book 'The Idiot Brain'. The title gives an indication of the explanations for our thinking, and it's written in an easy to digest way, interlaced with humour, so you laugh and learn as you go.

Although neuroscientists understand a lot about the workings of the brain, as has been suggested, they have barely scratched the surface.

I'm quite sure that some believe that they have had visions, and there are some who believe they've not only seen aliens, they believe they've been abducted by them, but we don't take them seriously, and I've no doubt you've laughed at ridiculous claims. Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat.

"Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat."

Please give me a reference to anywhere in the Bible that says the earth is flat. Not sure what early Catholics believed but I've never seen it.

In fact all I've seen is the "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This means that 8th century BC Israelite's may have believed the earth was spherical and not flat

Edited March 29, 2016 by Linzz

[sirineou]

So are we all in agreement that the first written texts were 200 years after the fact? 200 years of stories told to the next person. Really.

Give me 10 minutes and 10 people and I'll speak into the ear of the first (we all know the outcome)

Time to take a break and listen to Lennon's Imagine

Except you're forgetting the huge body of dedicated scholars called scribes (related words script, scripture) whose occupation was to transcribe and copy scripture without altering "one jot or tittle" for hundreds of years within the Judaic tradition and similarly the body of dedicated scholars who carried on with that tradition with the new testament also. There was cross checking and punishment for alterations too.Why? Because they wanted never to alter what they believed was God's words, e.g. the 10 commandments.

Not perfect by any means but a far cry from "speaking in the ears of 10 people"

Being of Greek decent I am glad to hear, and am in total agreement with. that God speaks Greek , since most of the scriptures were write in Greek. How this "dedicated scribes" copy them in German, French English etc with out changing "Gods Words" was in its self miraculous

By the way, what Augustwest said is that by the time they were write a couple generations after the fact, and then copied by the so called dedicated scribes, they were passed on orally.

No No I dont mean during sex, I mean the were told from person to person, and as augustwest said embellished.

[Linzz]

Religious and/or culturally religious... What an excellent observation.

This analogy can well be applied to Muslims also. I know many who are cultural Muslims, but some on TVF could never recognize or accept this

Sorry to get off topic, not meaning to reintroduce another slinging match!

[pitrevie]

That which appears ridiculous is open to ridicule.

Out brains are susceptible to erroneous conclusions, something that neuroscientist Dr Dean Burnett explains in his book 'The Idiot Brain'. The title gives an indication of the explanations for our thinking, and it's written in an easy to digest way, interlaced with humour, so you laugh and learn as you go.

Although neuroscientists understand a lot about the workings of the brain, as has been suggested, they have barely scratched the surface.

I'm quite sure that some believe that they have had visions, and there are some who believe they've not only seen aliens, they believe they've been abducted by them, but we don't take them seriously, and I've no doubt you've laughed at ridiculous claims. Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat.

"Some people actually believe that the earth is flat, and let's not forget that Galileo was excommunicated from the Catholic Church for defying the written word of the holy bible with his claim that the world was not indeed flat."

Please give me a reference to anywhere in the Bible that says the earth is flat. Not sure what early Catholics believed but I've never seen it.

In fact all I've seen is the "circle of the earth" (Isaiah 40:22). This means that 8th century BC Israelite's may have believed the earth was spherical and not flat

Matthew 4:8

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)

This implies a flat earth as it is the only way you could see all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain and there were certainly thriving kingdoms and civilizations on the other side of the globe that he could not have been shown.